P/F dental schools?

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es2391

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So I've heard that some dental schools have a pass/fail policy for grading. The first school I heard that did this was Harvard. Do you guys know any other schools that do this?

Greatly appreciate any help!

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Do you guys think this is good or bad?
 
i believe uconn does, someone correct me if i'm wrong but i think they are P/F
 
As long as u are self-organized, ur entire 4yr may not be that much stressful. Maybe, u don't have to study to approach to a perfect score. Instead, depending on ur exam day, condition, stress, daily routine, u may just pass the cut-off scores.

However, I also think the cut-off scores for "pass" may be different according to schools. Furthermore, to get "pass" at some schools may be really really difficult, if they normally give harsh grading.

Btw, "pass" must be also determined adaptively according to the overall performance of a class. Hence I still believe it must be curved.

Otherwise, it's just like pass/fail in undergrad.

I dont' know~ :p
 
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As long as u are self-organized, ur entire 4yr may not be that much stressfull. Maybe, u don't have to study to approach to a perfect score. Instead, depending on ur exam day, condition, stress, daily routine, u may just pass the cut-off scores.

However, I also think the cut-off scores for "pass" may be different according to schools. Furthermore, to get "pass" at some schools may be really really difficult, if they normally give harsh grading.

Btw, "pass" must be also determined adaptively according to the overall performance of a class. Hence I still believe it must be curved.

Otherwise, it's just like pass/fail in undergrad.

I dont' know~ :p

It would be my impression though that a curve would only be present to help, not to hinder passing. This is my opinion based on the fact that dental schools want their students to pass, it does them no good f students fail and dont make it through, they are in the business to produce dentists
 
It would be my impression though that a curve would only be present to help, not to hinder passing. This is my opinion based on the fact that dental schools want their students to pass, it does them no good f students fail and dont make it through, they are in the business to produce dentists

Their students are suppoesed to be evaluated only thru NBDE.

But, now NBDE is changing into P/F grading system. A few guys were talking about its effect!

Ex)
P / P < A+ / P
(Grade/Board)

P / P > B- / P

I think these were what they were talking about.

Unfortunately, I may be the one who didn't get clear idea of its effect!

Fortunately, I don't care at this time! :laugh:
 
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Their students are suppoesed to be evaluated only thru NBDE.

But, now NBDE is changing into P/F grading system. A few guys were talking about its effect!

Ex)
P / P < A+ / P
(Grade/Board)

P / P > B- / P

"The latter guy may be favored". I think that was what they were talking about.

Unfortunately, I may be the one who didn't get clear idea of its effect!

Fortunately, I don't care at this time! :laugh:

All the dental schools following P/F system have a rep of sending students to residencies, i doubt their rep will change even if NBDE is P/F now.
 
Their students are suppoesed to be evaluated only thru NBDE.

But, now NBDE is changing into P/F grading system. A few guys were talking about its effect!

Ex)
P / P < A+ / P
(Grade/Board)

P / P > B- / P

"The latter guy may be favored". I think that was what they were talking about.

Unfortunately, I may be the one who didn't get clear idea of its effect!

Fortunately, I don't care at this time! :laugh:


Just to let everyone know something I heard at one of my interviews...some dental schools are purposefully blocking the switch to p/f at this time for nbde. so though it may be inevitable it's still going to be at least a few years...
 
really? schools that have the P/F system have a rep of sending students to residencies?
 
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really? schools that have the P/F system have a rep of sending students to residencies?
Are you saying harvard, columbia, ucla, ucsf don't have a rep?
 
really? schools that have the P/F system have a rep of sending students to residencies?

Keep in mind that it is not the "P" that is getting these students into specialty programs, but the work of the students (board scores, extra curric., etc).
 
Are you saying harvard, columbia, ucla, ucsf don't have a rep?

Why do people miss Uconn?

Schools such as Harvard, UConn, Columbia, UCLA and UCSF definitely have rep of sending people to residencies.
As far as uconn is concerned, for so many years, all those who applied for OMFS residency got in somewhere. And last year at Harvard only one student went into private practice but rest of 34 went into residency.
So yeah i would call it a rep.
 
Some schools are also H/P/F, which increases the competitiveness amongst the class compared to just P/F.
 
All the dental schools following P/F system have a rep of sending students to residencies, i doubt their rep will change even if NBDE is P/F now.

I agree that the reputation (i.e. the quality of the students) of these schools will not change, but I also believe that it's going to be much harder for students from P/F schools to distinguish themselves for residency/specialty programs.

If I'm not mistaken (and correct me if I'm wrong since I may just be a naive PRE-dent), the reason that these P/F schools have such a great reputation is because their students have traditionally performed exceptionally on the NBDE-I, which have subsequently allowed them to gain a disproportionately high number of acceptances to residency/specialty programs.

Now that the NBDE-I is going P/F, that "advantage" has essentially been nullified. So how are residency programs supposed to evaluate these students compared to students from programs with a grading system in place? As I've said before, assuming that Applicant A and Applicant B are equal in all other respects ("P" on the NBDE-I, equivalent extracurriculars and research experience while in dental school), and Applicant A has a GPA whereas Applicant B has all "P"s from a traditionally "notable" program, how do you distinguish between the two?

Unless residency programs start administering specialty-specific exams as a prereq for entrance into specialties, I think that students coming from a P/F program will be at a disadvantage...

Again, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong b/c this is a factor I'll have to consider when choosing schools (hopefully) in a few months!
 
I agree that the reputation (i.e. the quality of the students) of these schools will not change, but I also believe that it's going to be much harder for students from P/F schools to distinguish themselves for residency/specialty programs.

If I'm not mistaken (and correct me if I'm wrong since I may just be a naive PRE-dent), the reason that these P/F schools have such a great reputation is because their students have traditionally performed exceptionally on the NBDE-I, which have subsequently allowed them to gain a disproportionately high number of acceptances to residency/specialty programs.

Now that the NBDE-I is going P/F, that "advantage" has essentially been nullified. So how are residency programs supposed to evaluate these students compared to students from programs with a grading system in place? As I've said before, assuming that Applicant A and Applicant B are equal in all other respects ("P" on the NBDE-I, equivalent extracurriculars and research experience while in dental school), and Applicant A has a GPA whereas Applicant B has all "P"s from a traditionally "notable" program, how do you distinguish between the two?

Unless residency programs start administering specialty-specific exams as a prereq for entrance into specialties, I think that students coming from a P/F program will be at a disadvantage...

Again, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong b/c this is a factor I'll have to consider when choosing schools (hopefully) in a few months!

I would think that the quality of the interview would have to be weighted more.
In terms of medical residencies in Canada, the boards are pass fail and many medical schools are pass/fail/honours as well... Basically everything rides on the interview and reference letters. It's a model that the American dental residencies can build off of.
 
One aspect of P/NP schools many of you aren't considering is the fact that it is not the only way they give reports to specialty programs. For example UCSF attaches special merits to your profile if you do especially well in a particular course. I'm sure it is like this for other pass not pass schools as well.
 
I agree that the reputation (i.e. the quality of the students) of these schools will not change, but I also believe that it's going to be much harder for students from P/F schools to distinguish themselves for residency/specialty programs.

If I'm not mistaken (and correct me if I'm wrong since I may just be a naive PRE-dent), the reason that these P/F schools have such a great reputation is because their students have traditionally performed exceptionally on the NBDE-I, which have subsequently allowed them to gain a disproportionately high number of acceptances to residency/specialty programs.

Now that the NBDE-I is going P/F, that "advantage" has essentially been nullified. So how are residency programs supposed to evaluate these students compared to students from programs with a grading system in place? As I've said before, assuming that Applicant A and Applicant B are equal in all other respects ("P" on the NBDE-I, equivalent extracurriculars and research experience while in dental school), and Applicant A has a GPA whereas Applicant B has all "P"s from a traditionally "notable" program, how do you distinguish between the two?

Unless residency programs start administering specialty-specific exams as a prereq for entrance into specialties, I think that students coming from a P/F program will be at a disadvantage...

Again, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong b/c this is a factor I'll have to consider when choosing schools (hopefully) in a few months!

LOR, Externships and PSU back to the same thing "life experience."
Remember numbers arent everything.
 
One aspect of P/NP schools many of you aren't considering is the fact that it is not the only way they give reports to specialty programs. For example UCSF attaches special merits to your profile if you do especially well in a particular course. I'm sure it is like this for other pass not pass schools as well.

Actually, for UCLA, while there is an "Honors" designation, it is strictly internal and won't be part of your file, transcript, etc. The only place you might see it is on the letter by the school director, but then it's only probably a sentence or two.
 
Actually, for UCLA, while there is an "Honors" designation, it is strictly internal and won't be part of your file, transcript, etc. The only place you might see it is on the letter by the school director, but then it's only probably a sentence or two.

WHAT ABOUT

CASE & Columbia?

As for Columbia, I remember from my interview that ranking will be indicated on the Columbia transcript.

Correct me or add more comments~ Thanks!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, I also want to ask if anybody opens his/her business right after graduating from dental school.
 
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I have bachelor degree in computer science from outside the U.S. Does anyone know if I have to evaluate my degree and is it acceptable at all !!!?
I have taken 65 units (general science) in community college so far and I’m planning to take DAT in April.


Greatly appreciate any help!
:)
 
P/NP is great. The best result at UCSF has been that the class works together and shares every resource possible. It has changed the dynamic from every student for themselves to all students vs. the information...basically everyone working together to shove the same insane volume of information into all our brains. We know that each person learns differently so some people benefit from one resource (flashcards, outlines, etc.) while others learn better from other resources (released exams, group study, etc.).

We can receive letters of commendation or honors for specific courses during the 3rd and 4th years, but I think these are really minimal on their impact right now. Who knows once the boards switch to P/NP as well.

Not to scare everyone, but at a recent ortho interview the program director told me that they actually look more at the GRE score than the Part I boards score. He said that they have had residents that have received a 98 on the boards in the past come and not even be able to communicate effectively with their patients. On the other hand, he said, that while the info that the GRE tests has no relation to the mechanics or biology of ortho, they have found a better correlation between how students do on the GRE and how they will perform in their residency.
 
P/NP is great. The best result at UCSF has been that the class works together and shares every resource possible. It has changed the dynamic from every student for themselves to all students vs. the information...basically everyone working together to shove the same insane volume of information into all our brains. We know that each person learns differently so some people benefit from one resource (flashcards, outlines, etc.) while others learn better from other resources (released exams, group study, etc.).

We can receive letters of commendation or honors for specific courses during the 3rd and 4th years, but I think these are really minimal on their impact right now. Who knows once the boards switch to P/NP as well.

Not to scare everyone, but at a recent ortho interview the program director told me that they actually look more at the GRE score than the Part I boards score. He said that they have had residents that have received a 98 on the boards in the past come and not even be able to communicate effectively with their patients. On the other hand, he said, that while the info that the GRE tests has no relation to the mechanics or biology of ortho, they have found a better correlation between how students do on the GRE and how they will perform in their residency.

You sure about this? Everything I have heard places the GRE scores at a very low priority compared to the other factors, with Boards (right now) still a #1 consideration. But who knows, with its going to P/F, the GRE might play a more important role with all the fluff that people are going to put in their applications.
 
WHAT ABOUT

CASE & Columbia?

As for Columbia, I remember from my interview that ranking will be indicated on the Columbia transcript.

Correct me or add more comments~ Thanks!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, I also want to ask if anybody opens his/her business right after graduating from dental school.

you are wrong about columbia. only YOU and the DEAN know your ranking. no one else. when it comes to writing letters of recommendation from the dean to your residencies your senior year, based on your ranking, you get put into one of three piles. something like very highly recommended, highly recommended, and recommended. your actual class ranking does not go on your transcript. no one knows it but you and the dean.
 
and i heard something about GRE scores may be taken into account when the boards to go P/F. i have no idea if its true or not though. i guess we'll see!
 
I had also thought that the GRE was just an afterthought, but it was a program director that told me that. Also don't know if this program was unique in that way.
 
I thought some schools are actually blocking the boards from going into P/F. Am I wrong? Is it inevitable?
 
I thought some schools are actually blocking the boards from going into P/F. Am I wrong? Is it inevitable?

I heard those rumors about the boards now not switching to P/F here on SDN over the last month or so. Those people posting stated that their ADEA (American Dental Education Association) reps came back from a big conference and shared that news.

I finally checked with the ADEA reps at my school this week to confer, and they too are pretty certain that it will not go P/F.
 
I heard those rumors about the boards now not switching to P/F here on SDN over the last month or so. Those people posting stated that their ADEA (American Dental Education Association) reps came back from a big conference and shared that news.

I finally checked with the ADEA reps at my school this week to confer, and they too are pretty certain that it will not go P/F.

so is that good or bad?
 
I heard those rumors about the boards now not switching to P/F here on SDN over the last month or so. Those people posting stated that their ADEA (American Dental Education Association) reps came back from a big conference and shared that news.

I finally checked with the ADEA reps at my school this week to confer, and they too are pretty certain that it will not go P/F.

For now, I am going with the knowledge that the Boards will be P/F starting 2010. I have had multiple discussions of this with our assistant dean who is intimately familiar with the Boards people and she is saying that everything is pointing to the change as planned. If they are indeed going to postpone it, one has to assume that they are going to announce it pretty soon seeing that 2008 is soon coming to an end.
 
For now, I am going with the knowledge that the Boards will be P/F starting 2010. I have had multiple discussions of this with our assistant dean who is intimately familiar with the Boards people and she is saying that everything is pointing to the change as planned. If they are indeed going to postpone it, one has to assume that they are going to announce it pretty soon seeing that 2008 is soon coming to an end.

You, class of 2012, were supposed to be the first guinea pigs, right? But if they just postpone the change for a year, then we, class of 2013, become the first victims. Oh my, it's good for you and bad for us. Haha. :rolleyes:
 
WHAT ABOUT

CASE & Columbia?

As for Columbia, I remember from my interview that ranking will be indicated on the Columbia transcript.

Correct me or add more comments~ Thanks!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, I also want to ask if anybody opens his/her business right after graduating from dental school.
As of right now Case is still P/F. They are still trying to figure out what they want to do when/if the boards go to P/F. There is a ranking system, although I don't believe we really ever see it.
 
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