"Pass" on a clerkship - is that the end of the world?

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metabolite

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Okay, I know it isn't. But I do have one 'pass' on one of my clerkship and I just feel crushed about it, especially when I hear others venting about how upset they are that they only got a pass, or only got a high pass. Surely there must be folks who's gotten a pass or two in their clinical years and still managed to be successful in their careers. Anyone have similar feelings?

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dude....ur fine, don't worry about it. it crushes your personal ego, but probably makes no difference on your application. what are you planning on going into?
 
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dude....ur fine, don't worry about it. it crushes your personal ego, but probably makes no difference on your application. what are you planning on going into?

Don't worry about it-- we're all programmed to want to be the best at everything (myself included) but in the end a pass in a clerkship is no big deal. You'll get a good residency, be a good doc, and have a great life, and in 10 years you won't even remember this. If there's something specific you could do better on the next clerkship (study more for the shelf? show up earlier?) just learn from that and move on. Grades don't equate to personal worth.
 
many people "in the middle of the class" get 1-2 passes, and like 2 honors, the rest high passes during the clerskship year in my school. Try and have as big a fund of knowledge as you can and try and know more about your patients than anyone else (eg like know when your patient is going to radiology, when were his tubes put, when were his antibiotics started, etc.) These are things you can control which will increase the probability your grades will be higher. Be fair and have integrity, and you'll be ok.

some people just get high passes, some people get the majority of their grades as honors. The latter group tends to be consistent and has both clinical competence as well as high levels of political skill.
 
just so long as the pass wasn't in some field you wanted to go into. if it was, then the cream of the crop places may have faded away from you.

some places require an Honors to even be considered for an interview.
 
Okay, I know it isn't. But I do have one 'pass' on one of my clerkship and I just feel crushed about it, especially when I hear others venting about how upset they are that they only got a pass, or only got a high pass. Surely there must be folks who's gotten a pass or two in their clinical years and still managed to be successful in their careers. Anyone have similar feelings?

You are looking through rose-colored glasses. A majority of your class is getting straight P's and very few honors or even high P's.
 
Don't worry about it-- we're all programmed to want to be the best at everything (myself included) but in the end a pass in a clerkship is no big deal. You'll get a good residency, be a good doc, and have a great life, and in 10 years you won't even remember this. If there's something specific you could do better on the next clerkship (study more for the shelf? show up earlier?) just learn from that and move on. Grades don't equate to personal worth.
thank God. I was beginning to feel entirely worthless.
 
I once failed a clerkship for a bullcrap reason and then appealed and had it changed into a pass. Let me tell you - THAT pass was the best thing that's ever happened in my life! On that day I found out, I was jumping around and celebrating. I called and emailed everybody who supported me through the ordeal and they all cheered. See, it's all about the perspective. Oh, and I've just matched into a very good residency program.
 
At my school the difference between P, HP, and H has a lot more to do with how generous your attending is with evals than anything else. Evals here account for about half of your grade, and if you happen to be doing an away with someone particularly nice you can be guaranteed at least an HP. The reverse is also true and if you end up with someone who's stingy you can get screwed no matter how high your score on the shelf. The whole thing about knowing your patient better than anyone else is often not feasible. In general, people don't make it a priority to keep you informed because you're not making any decisions. I didn't start the med, I'm not going to d/c it, thus it becomes difficult to even remember the things that I did find out.

To the op, might I recommend that the single most important thing you can do for 3rd year is to make time for reading, even if it means you're not a superstar on rounds. Being in the hospital is overrated, especially when there is nothing going on. The best thing a patient can do for me is to remind me how little I know, and therefore direct my reading. Get out of there every chance you get, get cozy with a book, and learn. Good luck!
 
At my school the max # H and NH are 40%. Hence ~60 % of grades given are pass/fail which means there's more students getting straight up pass than not. So there are plenty of studens, including myself, that have gotten nothing but pass in every single clerkship. Is it the end of the world for me? I like to think otherwise. I am shooting for IM at a mid-tier program and intend to work hard during IM rotation and do an away at the place I am interested in and hopefully things will work out.
 
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Though just getting a Pass is rough when you know that you have worked hard and deserve more, it is not the end of the world. I received a Pass in General Surgery, but did extremely well in the rest of my clerkships. No one asked about my surgery grade. More emphasis was placed on my letters of recommendation and the comments from the rest of my clinical evaluations, which were a part of my Dean's Letter. I matched at my #1!

By the way, a couple of years ago, a girl from my school received a Conditional in General Surgery. She actually Honored the clinical portion of the clerkship, but she failed the Shelf exam. She matched into a surgical residency at one of the top programs in the country. She kicked butt in her Surgery Sub-I and had excellent letters of recommendation regarding her clinical performance. She also did really well in her electives.
 
They should change the grading scale to:
Smart, Kiss-ass, backstabbing, High/pass, borderline, plain-dumb.

i think some of you would agree that the kissass grade is a must.
 
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They should change the grading scale to:
Smart, Kiss-ass, backstabbing, High/pass, borderline, plain-dumb.

i think some of you would agree that the kissass grade is a must.
hahaha, that's awesome!! I think that scale would be perfect - especially the backstabbing and kissass ones... genius! lol... :D
 
Thanks very much for all your inputs - I am feeling a little better now. The reason why I was getting so upset was because I feel that my "pass" was completely unfair, especially in light of the fact that

1. In my school, getting an honor is mostly up to generosity of the attendings and residents at the service. I know some folks who got honors with half the amount of work I put in (i.e. disappear every chance that they get, put in the least amount of hours, copied H&P from their interns to present).

2. My "pass" was because my resident truly disliked me - i.e. "I'm a third year resident, do you think you know more than me?" on daily basis for 2 weeks, then I really let that get under my skin and totally ruined my rotation - I didn't fight or complained to anyone, I just sucked it up, but spent next 4 weeks in complete paranoia, which I'm sure has affected my personal performance.

3. Thinking that I let some jerk get under my skin enough to let that affect my future - which according to some people in my school, without straight honors, I will have to choose from 2-3 least competitive specialties.

I had a random conversation with an anesthesia resident the other day, who said that most people realize that clinical grades are very subjective, and what counts a lot is your interview skills (well, if I get an interview). I'm keeping my fingers crossed - ! I do believe that everything happens for the best. Good luck with the remaining rotations, everyone!!!
 
3. Thinking that I let some jerk get under my skin enough to let that affect my future - which according to some people in my school, without straight honors, I will have to choose from 2-3 least competitive specialties.

This is definitely not true! There are people in my class that got a Pass in a clerkship who matched in Derm, Plastics, ENT, Urology, and Neurosurgery. However, their applications were extremely competitive in all other aspects. They did well in electives related to their specialty, sub-internships, had good letters of recommendation, and did well in the basic sciences and boards. Remember, residency committees look at your entire application. One Pass is not the end of the world. Good luck!
 
according to some people in my school, without straight honors, I will have to choose from 2-3 least competitive specialties.

That's possibly the dumbest, least-informed thing I've ever heard on that issue. I can't believe these people giving you advice are third year medical students. What's even more disturbing is that you all seem to be training in my home state.......

Although, in your friends' defense, they probably do need straight honors to take attention away from how dumb they are.
 
This thread is plain stupid. If you need honors in every rotation to secure a "good residency," then I guess there's only about 3000 positions in the entire match that are "good residencies." Newsflash: your grades barely matter as long as you PASS. Step 1 score is the deciding factor, hands down!

:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: for this thread and the rumors it will cause.
 
Surely there must be folks who's gotten a pass or two in their clinical years and still managed to be successful in their careers.


No....successful people don't get passes. I'm so sorry.




OK I know I'm the most sarcastic SDNer ever but seriously - we'll all be fine. There's like a tiny % of people who get screwed but odds are in our favor that we will be ok and that includes YOU ya little gunner! :D
 
Okay, I know it isn't. But I do have one 'pass' on one of my clerkship and I just feel crushed about it, especially when I hear others venting about how upset they are that they only got a pass, or only got a high pass. Surely there must be folks who's gotten a pass or two in their clinical years and still managed to be successful in their careers. Anyone have similar feelings?

f***ing medical students . . .
 
As the author of the 250 Biggest Mistakes 3rd Year Medical Students Make And How To Avoid Them, I've had a chance to research the importance of clerkship grades in the residency selection process. After looking over the medical education literature and discussing this with a number of program directors, I can offer you the following information:

1) Grades in required 3rd year clerkships are very important. In 1999, Wagoner reported the results of a survey. In this survey, program directors (representing fourteen specialties, including competitive ones such as orthopedic surgery and ophthalmology) were asked to rank academic criteria for resident selection in order of importance. "Grades in required clerkships" was ranked # 1 overall. Also in the top 3 were number of honors grades and class rank (Wagoner NE, Suriano JR. Program directors' responses to a survey on variables used to select residents in a time of change. Acad Med 1999; 74(1): 51-58).

2) Students often don't realize the importance of 3rd year clerkship grades. In a survey of medical students at University of Utah, University of Colorado, and Vanderbilt, 43.2% of the respondents felt that these grades were only mildly or moderately important in the residency selection process.

3) Pox in a box mentions the importance of the UMSLE in the residency selection process. I agree that it's important but I wouldn't say that it is the deciding factor. It is one factor albeit a major one but its importance varies from specialty to specialty and even within programs in a specialty.

4) To the original poster, you have done well in your third year. Getting a pass in a rotation is certainly not the end of the world. As Medical123 stated, many students, who have gotten Ps in one or more rotations, have gone on to secure positions in competitive specialties. In fact, few students across the country will honor every required rotation.
 
Samir, that is a shame, as most of our grades are determined by the mood of our attending when he or she finally gets around to filling out the bubbles on our evals (how time consuming). In other words, they are total bulls**t. I have a hard time believing that residency program directors are unaware of this, after all, they've played the game too....
 
Samir, that is a shame, as most of our grades are determined by the mood of our attending when he or she finally gets around to filling out the bubbles on our evals (how time consuming). In other words, they are total bulls**t. I have a hard time believing that residency program directors are unaware of this, after all, they've played the game too....

What's more, our Internal Medicine department recently made a rule that if you didn't get HONORS in your Medicine 200 clerkship, you have to do some medicine electives first before they will let you do a Sub-I. As if you are some second class citizen who knows much less medicine than someone who got honors. That kind of policy makes you feel as if it REALLY matters.

I was talking to some 2nd years who just started clinics yesterday and it is impossible to get them to see how important grades actually are. :(
 
I still get the sense that a lot of this grade hysteria is overrated. I think a lot of the surveys indeed show a lot of emphasis on the grades but if you look at NRMP data and match lists I think both where you go to school and what your Step 1 score is matters enormously. In other words, I can see that many residency directors might list grades (in all their 8 incarnations, class rank, grades in relevant clerkship, transcript, number of honors etc etc) highly but NRMP data shows that usually it's people with step 1 <200 that have trouble matching (in most specialties). Take Radiology for instance-- almost everyone with >230 matches.

Obviously getting a fail or needing remediation is different. Also relevant is that there are big distinctions between schools -- Rochester has something like 10% get honors, 40% get HP, and 50% get Pass in most rotations while Penn is like 20-30% honors, 70% HP, 5-10% Pass per clerkship. So I could see getting half pass half HP at Rochester being in the middle of the class while at Penn that would put you at the very bottom.

I've decided I'm having the attitude that I'm here for med school to learn as much as I can and be as competent as I can be. I agree with other posters on here that often it feels like the point of clerkships are to sift the wheat from the chaff of med students, and I hate that. In the end though, only a few specialties will be off limits unless you are truly at the very bottom (failed clerkships etc).
 
Residency programs are made aware of how grades are distributed for each student; each grade that the program receives pertaining to a particular student comes with a histogram of how the grades were broken down for that particular clerkship taking into consideration all of the students who had the clerkship for that academic year. Therefore a program with 20% honors vs one with 10% for a given clerkship will be noted...or at least it is supposed to work that way.

To be honest, I don't know how many people actually do this and secondly, I don't really know how much a PD or committee will take that into consideration - even when deciding b/w two very similar candidates.
 
After finishing 3rd year and watching my classmates, it seems like it would be fairly easy to categorize students into 3 groups: 1. People who are trying hard, coming in on time/early, practicing presentations, basically doing the things Dr. Desai describes in his book. 2. People who are doing fine but for whatever reason, are not putting in the extra effort. 3. People who deserve to fail-- violate pt confidentiality, don't show up when they should, fail the shelf, etc.

I think the problem comes in taking the first 2 groups of students and trying to sort them into honors, high pass, and pass categories. I bet with only 1 or 2 evaluations you can't make a reasonably repeatable determination about whether someone deserves a H or HP. For instance, if you somehow designed a situation where the same student went through the same clerkship multiple times, they might get a H 60% of the time and NH 40% of the time. I would imagine that the repeatability would improve the more attendings are involved in the evaluation, as long as each has worked with the student long enough to get an accurate picture. The problem is that most of our grades are based on just a few evals, and so the personal scale of the individual evaluator matters as much as the student's performance.

Dr. Desai, do you know of any data to support how reliable the clerkship grades are? Has anyone studied how much individual attendings differ in how many honors/ high pass/ pass grades they give out? If you designed a clerkship where say 10 people evaluated the student and pick out any 1 or 2 evals at random, do they represent the group's score? Among a group of 10 evaluations of the same student on the same rotation, are the evaluators' scores statistically consistent?

These are some questions I think it would be interesting to answer...
 
Let me comment on some of the posts that have followed mine:

1) eirinn152 wrote:

... most of our grades are determined by the mood of our attending when he or she finally gets around to filling out the bubbles on our evals (how time consuming). In other words, they are total bulls**t. I have a hard time believing that residency program directors are unaware of this, after all, they've played the game too....

My comments: The evaluation system is far from perfect. There are a number of factors that can affect a student's evaluation. First of all, interns, residents, and attending physicians are generally not taught how to evaluate students or complete evaluation forms. When I began residency (and after becoming a faculty member as well), I did not receive any instruction on how students should be evaluated. It is something I have had to figure out on my own. In my opinion, schools should place more emphasis on educating evaluators.

What else can affect a student's evaluation? Below is a link to one of the mistakes in my book that addresses this issue:

http://www.md2b.net/products/thyrmist/sample10.html

2) thewebthsp wrote:

I've decided I'm having the attitude that I'm here for med school to learn as much as I can and be as competent as I can be.

My comments: What a great attitude! Third year is a time to build the foundation for your future career as a physician. Clearly, you want that foundation to be strong. So you want to do what you can to pick up good habits, do things the right way, learn how to approach problems, interact with difficult patients, so on and so forth. We can become so focused on grades/residency that we forget about these things.

3) QuinnB wrote:

Residency programs are made aware of how grades are distributed for each student; each grade that the program receives pertaining to a particular student comes with a histogram of how the grades were broken down for that particular clerkship taking into consideration all of the students who had the clerkship for that academic year. Therefore a program with 20% honors vs one with 10% for a given clerkship will be noted...or at least it is supposed to work that way.

To be honest, I don't know how many people actually do this and secondly, I don't really know how much a PD or committee will take that into consideration - even when deciding b/w two very similar candidates.

My comments: The AAMC has asked schools to include grade distribution at the end of the MSPE (Dean's letter) - in one of the appendices. This recommendation came about because program directors wanted the letter to be more useful. They want to know how the student did relative to his or her classmates. To answer your question, since program directors have long asked for this information, it is certainly important to them. As for what they do with this information, it's hard to say. I'm not aware of any data on this issue yet.

4) fang wrote:

After finishing 3rd year and watching my classmates, it seems like it would be fairly easy to categorize students into 3 groups: 1. People who are trying hard, coming in on time/early, practicing presentations, basically doing the things Dr. Desai describes in his book. 2. People who are doing fine but for whatever reason, are not putting in the extra effort. 3. People who deserve to fail-- violate pt confidentiality, don't show up when they should, fail the shelf, etc.

I think the problem comes in taking the first 2 groups of students and trying to sort them into honors, high pass, and pass categories. I bet with only 1 or 2 evaluations you can't make a reasonably repeatable determination about whether someone deserves a H or HP. For instance, if you somehow designed a situation where the same student went through the same clerkship multiple times, they might get a H 60% of the time and NH 40% of the time. I would imagine that the repeatability would improve the more attendings are involved in the evaluation, as long as each has worked with the student long enough to get an accurate picture. The problem is that most of our grades are based on just a few evals, and so the personal scale of the individual evaluator matters as much as the student's performance.

My comments: This is an issue that has been looked at in the literature. To minimize rating errors, multiple evaluations are needed. This gives a better idea of the student's performance level. In a study of students who completed an IM rotation between 1987 and 1989 at one school, Carline found that "seven observations were needed to provide a reliable rating of the overall clinical grade." - Carline JD, Paauw DS, Thiede KW, Ramsey PG. Factors affecting the reliability of ratings of students' clinical skills in a medicine clerkship. J Gen Intern Med 1992; 7(5):506-10.
 
This is an issue that has been looked at in the literature. To minimize rating errors, multiple evaluations are needed. This gives a better idea of the student's performance level. In a study of students who completed an IM rotation between 1987 and 1989 at one school, Carline found that "seven observations were needed to provide a reliable rating of the overall clinical grade." - Carline JD, Paauw DS, Thiede KW, Ramsey PG. Factors affecting the reliability of ratings of students' clinical skills in a medicine clerkship. J Gen Intern Med 1992; 7(5):506-10.

I skimmed the article-- thanks for the reference! You'd think given this info the clerkship coordinators would try to make sure at least 7 people evaluated each student. As a student, it would take out one layer of uncertainty to know that your grade is determined by multiple raters and not just a few people's individual opinions.
 
Several of my Ortho interviewers mentioned that they were disappointed in me for getting an Honors in Psychiatry, but said that my Pass in Ob/Gyn made up for it.

I still got in.
 
Clerkship grades are only even remotely valid if the person who is evaluating you spend an adequate amount of time with you to evaluate you performance and the evaluations that one fills out are very specific and have detailed criteria, otherwise it becomes a game of "telephone" as the preceptor tries to assign a letter grade or honors/pass/fail grade on the basis of a vague evaluation. The latter situation is what occurs at my school. During our 12 week rotations (surgery and medicine) we are required to submit a "mid-core evalutation" to the attending or chief resident under who's supervision we are under for that month. These evaluations are the worst I've even seen. The have 3 criteria (clinical skills, medical knowledge, professional attitude) and then next to each are two boxes (satisfactory/unsatisfactory) and at the bottom is a "comment" area. Now even if you are a great student, you cannot get anything more than 3 satisfactory marks and some good comments at the bottom. Now, at the end of the 3 months, our preceptor gathers up 3 of these vague evals and has to come up with a letter grade (A,B,C,F) out if it (after supposed discussion with the eval writers of course). Now, how accurate or valid can such a grade be.

This is not as bad as our evals for 4 year electives. All we can get is Pass/Fail mark. So again, regardless of our effort and how much we might stand out from amongst the other students, the best we can get is Pass. Then we constantly have to explain to interviewers how come all we got was a pass in our desired specialty elective and not an Honors. It's just a shame but our school doesn't really care about the students, they are just in it to make money and complaining to them about such things would just go on deaf ear. I guess I'll just have to impress the interviewers with my natural charm even with just a pass on my EM electives.
 
I got a pass in anesthesia because it's solely based on a test and not on clinical performance. But you know what? Who gives a crap? I'm not doing gas and it was a required rotation at my school so we could learn to do art lines, intubate, and learn the basics of vent management.

Don't fret over a pass unless it's a big class and it's in something you want to do - medicine/surgery. And even if you do get a pass, do 4th year rotations to make up for it. No big deal.
 
Several of my Ortho interviewers mentioned that they were disappointed in me for getting an Honors in Psychiatry, but said that my Pass in Ob/Gyn made up for it.

:laugh: :thumbup:

i got a pass in Peds. i don't anticipate interviewers for rads programs caring too much about it. what's more, one of my comments read as follows, no joke :

"His reported interest is in Radiology, but he will make a good physician."

still think ratings aren't arbitrary?
 
Okay, I know it isn't. But I do have one 'pass' on one of my clerkship......

quit school without delay, i am sure you could still land a job as a fry cook




:thumbdown:thumbdown :thumbdown: :thumbdown: , this thread sucks, i assume you are just a troll
 
Okay, I know it isn't. But I do have one 'pass' on one of my clerkship and I just feel crushed about it, especially when I hear others venting about how upset they are that they only got a pass, or only got a high pass. Surely there must be folks who's gotten a pass or two in their clinical years and still managed to be successful in their careers. Anyone have similar feelings?

I only got a "pass" on a few rotations.

But then again Im a D.O. so people dont expect a whole lot from me anyway.
 
I only got a "pass" on a few rotations.

But then again Im a D.O. so people dont expect a whole lot from me anyway.

Chiropractors have to do clinical rotations?

;)
 
Chiropractors have to do clinical rotations?

;)

Yeah man. Someone has to heal the patients while all you MD types are prescribing meds and surgerizing. :laugh:
 
I'm not sure what you passed because I didnt read what you actually wrote, but if it was anything other than your PM&R elective - boy are you done for!

Well I am going to buck the trend here and say that getting a pass is probably going to really hurt your chances of anything other than family practice in Alaska. You can kiss that sweet peds spot in North Dakota adios, because you totally blew it.

Advice: Stop accumulating medical debt now and start studying for the LSAT, you have failed yourself, your family, and are an embarrasment to the medical student community and the medical profession at large.

Advice number two: Consider trying to match into an overseas program, you may be competitive for an internal medicine spot even though you are a rather poor canidate stateside.

Everyone else is just trying to gloss it over so you don't jump off a bridge.
 
Well, you guys make fun, but I got a high pass in the core clerkship of my chosen specialty (stupid non-shelf exam), along with a few honors and ther HP (no Passes) and my Dean of Student Affairs called my application from a grades standpoint "a little soft" :( . So, I don't think it's unreasonable to worry....

I'm not sure what you passed because I didnt read what you actually wrote, but if it was anything other than your PM&R elective - boy are you done for!

Well I am going to buck the trend here and say that getting a pass is probably going to really hurt your chances of anything other than family practice in Alaska. You can kiss that sweet peds spot in North Dakota adios, because you totally blew it.

Advice: Stop accumulating medical debt now and start studying for the LSAT, you have failed yourself, your family, and are an embarrasment to the medical student community and the medical profession at large.

Advice number two: Consider trying to match into an overseas program, you may be competitive for an internal medicine spot even though you are a rather poor canidate stateside.

Everyone else is just trying to gloss it over so you don't jump off a bridge.
 
Well, you guys make fun, but I got a high pass in the core clerkship of my chosen specialty (stupid non-shelf exam), along with a few honors and ther HP (no Passes) and my Dean of Student Affairs called my application from a grades standpoint "a little soft" :( . So, I don't think it's unreasonable to worry....

Agreed.
 
Am I the only one at a school where the majority get a Pass? We have a 15:15:70 ratio of Honors:Near Honors:pass, and "Near Honors" is not an official grade but something that appears in the Dean's Letter.
 
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