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Does any one know the details of pass through taxation in the senate bill ? How does it apply to S corp for physicians?
 

BLADEMDA

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The new tax code is extremely complicated but I think most Anesthesiologists won't be hurt that badly by it. Sure, a select few will get hosed by the new code but the majority seem to benefit from it:

"explaining all the details of the Senate Finance Committee’s pass-through provisions would require a team of lawyers, but one feature is worth highlighting: The new deduction would be limited for “specified service businesses” like doctors, lawyers, and accountants, and for businesses without sufficient wage expenses paid to employees. But those limits would not apply to taxpayers with taxable income below $250,000 ($500,000 for joint filers). And the benefit of the deduction phases-out rapidly, over an income range of just $50,000 ($100,000 for joint filers).

That means that individual taxpayers with pass-through income subject to the phase-out could face very high marginal tax rates for reporting additional income. How high?

Consider the example of a married couple whose entire income is “specified service” income generated by a pass-through entity and who claims the standard deduction. At an income of $524,000, the couple could take an $87,000 deduction (17.4 percent of the couple’s taxable income “without regard” to the deduction) that would reduce their taxes by $30,450 (since they are in the 35 percent tax bracket), but the deduction is entirely phased out at an income of $624,000. On average, that amounts to more than a 30% surtax on top of the 35% statutory tax rate over that range of income.

The actual phase-out is much more complicated, as the bill’s text released Monday night makes clear, because the deduction continues to apply even as its benefit is phased out. (If that sounds convoluted, it’s because it is.) The couple’s marginal income tax rate would jump to 61.375 percent at $528,541 of income. And it would rise to 73 percent until their income reaches $624,000 and the deduction is fully phased-out, at which point their marginal tax rate would return to the 35 percent ordinary income tax rate. (Note that these calculations do not include the additional 3.8 percent in self-employment payroll tax or the net investment income tax)."
 
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Im confused by parts of that article. How are doctors salary tax suddently jumping to 70% and then coming down after ~650k? Where is the extra 30% coming from??

"because the deduction continues to apply even as its benefit is phased out." what??
Basically income from 528k-650k would be taxed at marginal rates of 60-70%, clearly to discourage SCorp usage among doctors, laywers, etc making around these amounts or slightly higher. If you're making millions through your S-Corp, that temporary blip at that bracket doesn't matter as much.

However, this was in one version of the bill a few days ago. It's not clear if this is in the final Senate Bill, and who knows about reconciliation.
 
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d9sccr

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What about this not so hypothetical situation:

What if one-half of the couple is a 1099 with a salary that falls into that gap and the other is a W2 employee employed OUTSIDE the LLC. How does that affect this? I assume the 70% tax rate is being applied the corporation only and the the W2 would file separately?
 
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I think the senate bill could be potentially great if you can hit that sweet spot of $500000 of taxable income if you’re married. It’s potentially a $115000 deduction assuming g you pay yourself a w2 of $230000. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
 

anes121508

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I think the senate bill could be potentially great if you can hit that sweet spot of $500000 of taxable income if you’re married. It’s potentially a $115000 deduction assuming g you pay yourself a w2 of $230000. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

exactly what I'm trying to figure out...from what I've read on the senate version pp doc making 500K with pass through income and married wife doesn't work would make out well right?

what are the rules when pp doc making 500K pass through income is married to wife who makes 100K W2? not sure how that works
 

anes121508

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What about this not so hypothetical situation:

What if one-half of the couple is a 1099 with a salary that falls into that gap and the other is a W2 employee employed OUTSIDE the LLC. How does that affect this? I assume the 70% tax rate is being applied the corporation only and the the W2 would file separately?

Currently on google, but trying to determine same thing. Not even sure the rules if one partner is W2 and another is 1099
 

anes121508

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I think the senate bill could be potentially great if you can hit that sweet spot of $500000 of taxable income if you’re married. It’s potentially a $115000 deduction assuming g you pay yourself a w2 of $230000. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

"The Senate bill lowers taxes on filers in pass-throughs by letting them deduct 23% of their income, up from 17.4% originally.

The 23% deduction would be prohibited for anyone in a service business — except those with taxable incomes under $500,000 if married ($250,000 if single).

Prevent abuse of pass-through tax break: If the owner or partner in a pass-through also draws a salary from the business, that money would be subject to ordinary income tax rates.

But to prevent people from recharacterizing their wage income as business profits to get the benefit of the pass-through deduction, the Senate bill would automatically limit the deduction to half of the W-2 wages of the pass-through entity or its share to the individual taxpayer. The W-2 rule would not apply, however, if the filer’s taxable income is under $500,000 if married, $250,000 if single."

Trying to learn how this works since I know very little on this subject...

Ex: pp doc pay set to 230K by group then gets quarterly pay 40Kish. pp doc is married, husband makes 60K

1. is the 230K considered "drawing salary" and subject to W2?
2. is the quarterly 40K considered pass through?
3. deduct 23% of the 230K+quarterly 40K or only on ttl of the quarterly pay?
4. the deduction would be limited to half the 230K or half the ttl of the quarterly pay?
 

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The way I understand it is that you'll get a 23% deduction only on the pass-through income not on the W-2 salary you draw monthly.
 
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anes121508

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So its 250 for singles? how mnay anesthesiologists in corp make 250k or less?

how about a married doc making 475K in pp and wife/husband doesn't work, doesn't that qualify for the 500K exception? i'm sure plenty of those people out there
 

anes121508

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The way I understand it is that you'll get a 23% deduction only on the pass-through income not on the W-2 salary you draw monthly.

So in my example:
ttl pass through is 40K x 4 = 160K
160K x .23 = 37K.
Deduct 37K and now your taxable income is 353K (390K-37K)?
 
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I am a w2 working for an AMC. If is goes throb would it be possible to form a service corporation and "contract" myself to the AMC? What would be the implications of that regarding benefits?
 

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Wait, so theoretically, if you're married and keep your taxable income at 500K or a little less, you may actually take home more than the doc making >500K? That's just stupid.
Regardless, I'd wait until the final details are hashed thru before running numbers. I think even most CPA's wouldn't be able to get into specifics as far as the best planning at this point.
 

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I don’t understand the 23% deduction stuff....

Let’s assume 1099 income of $500k.
Minus salary $160k.
Minus business expenses (malpractice, health insurance, CME, etc) $30k.
Minus IRA contribution $40k.

What’s the tax rate now?
What’s the tax savings with the Senate plan?
How can a sham marriage help given 250k vs 500k limits?
 

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The way I understand it is that you'll get a 23% deduction only on the pass-through income not on the W-2 salary you draw monthly.

Yes, for physician S Corp you recieve a PORTION of income through the corporation as monthly “distributions.” $100k in distributions is a common number.
 

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So in my example:
ttl pass through is 40K x 4 = 160K
160K x .23 = 37K.
Deduct 37K and now your taxable income is 353K (390K-37K)?

Yes, you get the concept. In effect, that $37K is tax free in terms of Federal Income tax plus it may keep you in a lower tax bracket overall (depending on your total income).

In effect, you save $13K in taxes each year due to the Trump tax code. Your "take home pay" just went up $13K which should help offset any negatives due to the loss of deductions.
 
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I don’t understand the 23% deduction stuff....

Let’s assume 1099 income of $500k.
Minus salary $160k.
Minus business expenses (malpractice, health insurance, CME, etc) $30k.
Minus IRA contribution $40k.

What’s the tax rate now?
What’s the tax savings with the Senate plan?
How can a sham marriage help given 250k vs 500k limits?

Wait...how are you contributing 40K to an IRA??
 
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anes121508

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Yes, you get the concept. In effect, that $37K is tax free in terms of Federal Income tax plus it may keep you in a lower tax bracket overall (depending on your total income).

In effect, you save $13K in taxes each year due to the Trump tax code. Your "take home pay" just went up $13K which should help offset any negatives due to the loss of deductions.

That sounds great compared to the W2 AMC doc who is limited in tax sheltered retirement options and doesn't get any pass through income. Do you think this makes it more advantageous to take job with pp vs amc (seems like major tax benefit)? Do you think this law will have any effect on groups that may be on the fence as to wether or not to sell to AMC?
 

anes121508

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in reference to TEEVA question and example above....

500K ttl income (160 salary + 340 pass through)
340 (pass through income) x 23% (pass through deduction) = 78K
500K - 78K - 30K (business expenses still deductible?) - 40K - 24K (standard married deduction)= 328K taxable income

by applying senate tax plan calculator with 328K taxable income I got:
$77,100 in taxes

That's 15% (77K/500K), I must have done something wrong.

Apply 23% pass through deduction to entire amount of passthrough income? or income after business deductions?
Are business deductions still allowed?
I'm assuming you plug in the ttl of the taxable salary and the pass through into the income tax brackets.
 

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in reference to TEEVA question and example above....

500K ttl income (160 salary + 340 pass through)
340 (pass through income) x 23% (pass through deduction) = 78K
500K - 78K - 30K (business expenses still deductible?) - 40K - 24K (standard married deduction)= 328K taxable income

by applying senate tax plan calculator with 328K taxable income I got:
$77,100 in taxes

That's 15% (77K/500K), I must have done something wrong.

Apply 23% pass through deduction to entire amount of passthrough income? or income after business deductions?
Are business deductions still allowed?
I'm assuming you plug in the ttl of the taxable salary and the pass through into the income tax brackets.


Anyone paying themselves $160K salary and $340K as S corp dividends is begging for an audit. The salary is way too low and should be in the $250k-$300k range with the rest as dividends.

Business costs like malpractice, SEP, expenses come out before you get the pass through money.
You can set up a 401K with the "employee" contributing $18K and the "company" paying the rest.
 
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The new tax code is extremely complicated but I think most Anesthesiologists won't be hurt that badly by it. Sure, a select few will get hosed by the new code but the majority seem to benefit from it:

"explaining all the details of the Senate Finance Committee’s pass-through provisions would require a team of lawyers, but one feature is worth highlighting: The new deduction would be limited for “specified service businesses” like doctors, lawyers, and accountants, and for businesses without sufficient wage expenses paid to employees. But those limits would not apply to taxpayers with taxable income below $250,000 ($500,000 for joint filers). And the benefit of the deduction phases-out rapidly, over an income range of just $50,000 ($100,000 for joint filers).

That means that individual taxpayers with pass-through income subject to the phase-out could face very high marginal tax rates for reporting additional income. How high?

Consider the example of a married couple whose entire income is “specified service” income generated by a pass-through entity and who claims the standard deduction. At an income of $524,000, the couple could take an $87,000 deduction (17.4 percent of the couple’s taxable income “without regard” to the deduction) that would reduce their taxes by $30,450 (since they are in the 35 percent tax bracket), but the deduction is entirely phased out at an income of $624,000. On average, that amounts to more than a 30% surtax on top of the 35% statutory tax rate over that range of income.

The actual phase-out is much more complicated, as the bill’s text released Monday night makes clear, because the deduction continues to apply even as its benefit is phased out. (If that sounds convoluted, it’s because it is.) The couple’s marginal income tax rate would jump to 61.375 percent at $528,541 of income. And it would rise to 73 percent until their income reaches $624,000 and the deduction is fully phased-out, at which point their marginal tax rate would return to the 35 percent ordinary income tax rate. (Note that these calculations do not include the additional 3.8 percent in self-employment payroll tax or the net investment income tax)."

The benefit doesn't apply to lawyers or physicians. Only small business owners with an LLC.
 

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Anyone paying themselves $160K salary and $340K as S corp dividends is begging for an audit. The salary is way too low and should be in the $250k-$300k range with the rest as dividends.

Business costs like malpractice, SEP, expenses come out before you get the pass through money.
You can set up a 401K with the "employee" contributing $18K and the "company" paying the rest.

This is definitely audit city.
 
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anes121508

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The benefit doesn't apply to lawyers or physicians. Only small business owners with an LLC.

From what I've read, it says service oriented businesses are excluded unless making under 250K solo or 500K married.

So several of us have assumed that pp doc married making under 500K (ttl household) would benefit from the deduction.

Is this inaccurate?
 
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anes121508

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The benefit doesn't apply to lawyers or physicians. Only small business owners with an LLC.

CNBC - "The difference is that the House bill places restrictions on which businesses can qualify for that rate — and lawyers and accountants wouldn't be able to qualify. In the Senate bill, those lawyers and accountants are prohibited from taking that 23 percent deduction unless their taxable incomes are below $250,000 if single, or below $500,000 for married couples."
 
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CNBC - "The difference is that the House bill places restrictions on which businesses can qualify for that rate — and lawyers and accountants wouldn't be able to qualify. In the Senate bill, those lawyers and accountants are prohibited from taking that 23 percent deduction unless their taxable incomes are below $250,000 if single, or below $500,000 for married couples."

Doctors wont qualify either.

Trump's plan will increase taxes on docs in high taxed states due to removal of the state income tax deduction while docs/lawyers/accountants won't benefit from any LLC going forward.

Pretty much screwed on this if you live in Cali, NY, Illnois, etc.

Big business is a big winner of GOP small business tax plan

"The House plan would lower the maximum pass-through rate to 25 percent, but a host of small and medium businesses — including service providers such as doctors, lawyers, dentists, architects and accountants — would be blocked from obtaining any benefit."
 

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So its 250 for singles? how mnay anesthesiologists in corp make 250k or less?
Anyone paying themselves $160K salary and $340K as S corp dividends is begging for an audit. The salary is way too low and should be in the $250k-$300k range with the rest as dividends.

Business costs like malpractice, SEP, expenses come out before you get the pass through money.
You can set up a 401K with the "employee" contributing $18K and the "company" paying the rest.

Good point. I chose 265K myself and take the rest as dividends.
 
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ProRealDoc

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in reference to TEEVA question and example above....

500K ttl income (160 salary + 340 pass through)
340 (pass through income) x 23% (pass through deduction) = 78K
500K - 78K - 30K (business expenses still deductible?) - 40K - 24K (standard married deduction)= 328K taxable income

by applying senate tax plan calculator with 328K taxable income I got:
$77,100 in taxes

That's 15% (77K/500K), I must have done something wrong.

Apply 23% pass through deduction to entire amount of passthrough income? or income after business deductions?
Are business deductions still allowed?
I'm assuming you plug in the ttl of the taxable salary and the pass through into the income tax brackets.

Again, as I undertand it, the pass through income is income after all corporate deductions have been made. In your case, your pass through income should be:

340K minus all deductions= whatever that number is. I wouldn't count your 160K salary as pass through income. Only the remainder of the 340K minus whatever you write off.
 

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Again, as I undertand it, the pass through income is income after all corporate deductions have been made. In your case, your pass through income should be:

340K minus all deductions= whatever that number is. I wouldn't count your 160K salary as pass through income. Only the remainder of the 340K minus whatever you write off.

Salary is not pass through income. Pass through income is after corporate and/or individual expenses have been deducted.
 
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anes121508

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Doctors wont qualify either.

Trump's plan will increase taxes on docs in high taxed states due to removal of the state income tax deduction while docs/lawyers/accountants won't benefit from any LLC going forward.

Pretty much screwed on this if you live in Cali, NY, Illnois, etc.

Big business is a big winner of GOP small business tax plan

"The House plan would lower the maximum pass-through rate to 25 percent, but a host of small and medium businesses — including service providers such as doctors, lawyers, dentists, architects and accountants — would be blocked from obtaining any benefit."

I think you might be wrong:

CNBC - "The difference is that the House bill places restrictions on which businesses can qualify for that rate — and lawyers and accountants wouldn't be able to qualify. In the Senate bill, those lawyers and accountants are prohibited from taking that 23 percent deduction unless their taxable incomes are below $250,000 if single, or below $500,000 for married couples."

In the house bill docs don't qualify. However, it seems the senate bill does not exclude certain professions as long as income is low enough.
 

anes121508

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Doctors wont qualify either.

Trump's plan will increase taxes on docs in high taxed states due to removal of the state income tax deduction while docs/lawyers/accountants won't benefit from any LLC going forward.

Pretty much screwed on this if you live in Cali, NY, Illnois, etc.

Big business is a big winner of GOP small business tax plan

"The House plan would lower the maximum pass-through rate to 25 percent, but a host of small and medium businesses — including service providers such as doctors, lawyers, dentists, architects and accountants — would be blocked from obtaining any benefit."


Here is another source WASHINGTON POST:

"Many small businesses get a win, but there's a giant exception: Most businesses in the United States are organized as “pass through” companies (sole proprietorships, partnerships, LLCs and S corporations) where the income from the business is “passed through” to the owners and taxed at their individual tax rate. Under this bill, most pass-through businesses wouldn't have to pay tax on 23 percent of their income. The idea is to give mom-and-pop shops a sizable tax break. But there are limitations. Law firms, doctor's offices and other “service businesses” that earn over $250,000 wouldn't be eligible for the deduction. Other really large pass-through businesses would have a limit on how much they can deduct. The idea is to prevent millionaires from getting a really big tax break."

I tried to read the actual HR1, but I really can not understand it. This article above doesn't make the distinction between the limit for single and married.

Ultimately, it seems to me that articles and news reporting probably don't understand what's in the bill either or they chose leave out key pieces of the legislation. Seems like the only way to know is to understand the actual bill.
 

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Anyone paying themselves $160K salary and $340K as S corp dividends is begging for an audit. The salary is way too low and should be in the $250k-$300k range with the rest as dividends.
Don’t worry, it’s just hypothetical. Trying to understand how to run the numbers, and how marrying a low earning spouse or adding the spouse to the company as an employee can provide significant tax savings. Not that I recommend anyone get married for tax savings, but the married vs single deductions and limits seem to stack heavily against single.
 

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Ok, prediction (and you you can all call me an idiot and show me this post if it proves wrong):

DOCTORS WONT GET $HIT, S CORP DEDUCTION INCLUDED!

Caligas out.
 
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anes121508

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Don’t worry, it’s just hypothetical. Trying to understand how to run the numbers, and how marrying a low earning spouse or adding the spouse to the company as an employee can provide significant tax savings. Not that I recommend anyone get married for tax savings, but the married vs single deductions and limits seem to stack heavily against single.

Exactly my motive. Just an exercise to learn how the world works since I'm new to this stuff
 

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I think you might be wrong:

CNBC - "The difference is that the House bill places restrictions on which businesses can qualify for that rate — and lawyers and accountants wouldn't be able to qualify. In the Senate bill, those lawyers and accountants are prohibited from taking that 23 percent deduction unless their taxable incomes are below $250,000 if single, or below $500,000 for married couples."

In the house bill docs don't qualify. However, it seems the senate bill does not exclude certain professions as long as income is low enough.

Donts wont get s-it as a 1099. Just the reality of the situation. This is for the big boys.
 

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I think the House and Senate will compromise often on this issue. It is likely that a married Anesthesiologist who is 1099/S corp will save a few dollars with this tax "reform." I'd guess that would be in the $5-$10K range after the compromise is made.

Is that worth it to ruin the finances of the USA? This bill is terrible for the nation because it drives up our National debt. I'm all for cutting C corp taxes to 22% but that means Personal taxes on the "wealthy" (you can define that term) must go up.
 
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d9sccr

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I don't really disagree with you at all Blade but I find it amusing that people care about the federal deficit now with Trump in office when before no one really cared as long as they were getting free stuff. The ACA clearly overestimated it's savings and drastically underestimated the cost it would impose and yet it wasn't really talked about. I'm really just over the whole two party system, neither of which really seem to care for the country or the citizens.

Personally, I'd just like to see a simplified tax code where I just look at my bracket and pay that percent. No write-offs, deductions, work-arounds, or whatever other name you want to call it. Of course, that would kill a whole lot of CPA jobs but would ensure everyone is "paying their fair share".
 
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