Patient dies on Kings County Hospital floor

[scarletgirl777]

I don't think that the medical profession makes enough allowances for how desensitizing medicine can be. In specialties like the ER or psychiatry, doctors and nurses come in contact with people who show up repeatedly with constant complaints. And it seems like the GOMER mentality is allowed to proliferate unchecked. I mean, obviously I'm not a doctor, so I don't have any CME credits and maybe this IS something that is addressed repeatedly within the course of a doctor or nurse's career...but I've met more than a few people who seem bitter about having to deal with patients and their medical problems...and that's really not ok. Understandable of course. Perhaps that woman had seizures every day, several times a day, who knows. But still not OK. And that attitude usually doesn't result in a death, but it's still a toxic attitude because patients can tell when a health care worker and the system it represents has disdain for them, and that's not fair to them to put them through that, like the health care system is doing them a favor when in actuality as a doctor or nurse you are rendering a service that the patient or their representatives has paid for and is entitled to.

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[LizzyM]

Why do you say that lady was "underserved?"

Panda Bear, you need to join me on an adcom. "Underserved" is the new way of saying "poor". It is not accurate but it's not uncommon.

Just for the record; 15,000 died in the French heatwave in 2003 but not all 15,000 were elderly in nursing homes. Many died in their own homes. No one can blame the health care system for this one... heat waves are silent, invisible and deadly, particularly in areas where air conditioning is not the norm and people are ill-equiped to deal with sustained high daytime temperatures coupled with minimum temperatures that are high (meaning that it doesn't cool off over night).

 

[goodlookinrebel]

...but I've met more than a few people who seem bitter about having to deal with patients and their medical problems...and that's really not ok

Yeah, this job would be great if it wasnt for the customers.

 

[8744]

Panda Bear, you need to join me on an adcom. "Underserved" is the new way of saying "poor". It is not accurate but it's not uncommon.

Just for the record; 15,000 died in the French heatwave in 2003 but not all 15,000 were elderly in nursing homes. Many died in their own homes. No one can blame the health care system for this one... heat waves are silent, invisible and deadly, particularly in areas where air conditioning is not the norm and people are ill-equiped to deal with sustained high daytime temperatures coupled with minimum temperatures that are high (meaning that it doesn't cool off over night).

These were "excess" deaths, that is, not the usual number of deaths that were expected in any given month. I believe 5000 were in nursing homes, nursing homes that were understaffed because the low-payed workers who staffed them were asleep at the switch on the Cote D'azur while their patients sweltered without the benefit of a fan or a cool washrag, jungle medicine at its simplest. Nobody thought to recall those lazy French bastards when the heat wave went through to provide adequate cooling and medical care.

Shame on the impersonal French health care system.

 

[8744]

On the other hand there is a certain Gallic practicality in cleaning the welfare rolls of a few thousand non-productive members of society who just lay there sucking up cradle-to-grave benefits.

 

[Doctorverardoll]

I wonder who released the video.

The video was handed over to the NYCLU and I believe that they released it. I also believe the tape was given to the Brooklyn DA's office.

 

[requeim]

the worst part about this is that the patient was waiting for a room in the hospital.

 

[Danbo1957]

A French abstract on the 2003 heat wave deaths:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2219563http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=420061

 

[VneZonyDostupa]

Yeah, like when 15,000 French old people died in nursing homes during a heat wave because the staff were on vacation.

Actually, 10,000 died, and only "as many as half" were in understaffed nursing homes. It's still a wholly unacceptable number, but 15,000 and >5,000 are quite different. I understand that you fervently hate socialised medicine, but hyperbole doesn't help your cause.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-08-26-france-death_x.htm

 

[CubaLibre]

Actually, 10,000 died, and only "as many as half" were in understaffed nursing homes. It's still a wholly unacceptable number, but 15,000 and >5,000 are quite different. I understand that you fervently hate socialised medicine, but hyperbole doesn't help your cause.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-08-26-france-death_x.htm

i'm no fan of hyperbole either, but the 5000 figure that Panda offered the 2nd time and the "half of 10,000" number that you cited are a helluvalot similar don't you think. Sure, he's looking upwards of 5000 and USA today says as many as 5000, but the numbers aren't exactly derived from fact in the first place so it's merely a matter of perspective.

 

[8744]

Do you honestly think this would've happened in a country where your income (or apparent income) doesn't determine your medical priority? Lol.

Yes. In Greece, my ancestral homeland and the very model of a socialized state, not only do people wait in the hospitals for treatment and regularly die from things that I can casually write an order to address but many people with serious medical complaints get no treatment whatsoever as the state has constructed an intricate bureaucracy in the public health care sector to (covertly) ration expensive medical care.

Income determines medical priority everywhere. It determines it a good deal less in the United States because here even a wino can get speedy access to a couple of hundred thousand bucks of expensive therapy at any time of day or night. I have winos and druggies who have used by themselves probably more medical care than the combined total for many medium-sized Greek towns. You want to see money being spent? Smoke some crack, beat your girlfriend, and then come to the Emergency Department complaining of chest pain.

I assure you, if you are found comatose in a cardboard box under a bridge the entire weight of the American medical system will be brought to bear on your medical problems. I see it every day.

You folks have no clue.

 

[8744]

Do you honestly think this would've happened in a country where your income (or apparent income) doesn't determine your medical priority? Lol.

I repeat, the dead lady was getting (presumably) free psychiatric care at the tax-payer's expense. She probably also got food stamps, section eight housing, and disability. Underserved nothing.

 

[WinterLights]

Yes. In Greece, my ancestral homeland and the very model of a socialized state, not only do people wait in the hospitals for treatment and regularly die from things that I can casually write an order to address but many people with serious medical complaints get no treatment whatsoever as the state has constructed an intricate bureaucracy in the public health care sector to (covertly) ration expensive medical care.

Income determines medical priority everywhere. It determines it a good deal less in the United States because here even a wino can get speedy access to a couple of hundred thousand bucks of expensive therapy at any time of day or night. I have winos and druggies who have used by themselves probably more medical care than the combined total for many medium-sized Greek towns. You want to see money being spent? Smoke some crack, beat your girlfriend, and then come to the Emergency Department complaining of chest pain.

I assure you, if you are found comatose in a cardboard box under a bridge the entire weight of the American medical system will be brought to bear on your medical problems. I see it every day.

You folks have no clue.

So because a person is a drug abuser, they do not deserve medical treatment? A real credit to medicine you are. You seem to have no empathy for those who you perceive as worthless human beings. I would hope that most of us realize we are going to have to treat people that we do not like or even may feel inclined to hate, but the reality is that they are still human even if they are scum. Fortunately you don't make the medical policies; all you can do is come on here and rant about the "holy underserved" and how pre-meds are naive peons.

 

[8744]

So because a person is a drug abuser, they do not deserve medical treatment? A real credit to medicine you are. You seem to have no empathy for those who you perceive as worthless human beings. I would hope that most of us realize we are going to have to treat people that we do not like or even may feel inclined to hate, but the reality is that they are still human even if they are scum. Fortunately you don't make the medical policies; all you can do is come on here and rant about the "holy underserved" and how pre-meds are naive peons.

Whoa. Did you not read my post? In the United States, everybody from the CEO of Wal Mart to a useless druggie gets pretty much the same treatment for everything. Now, it's true that the CEO of Wal Mart can fly to Mayo or Duke but my hospital ain't bad and as I have an ICU census this month full of overdosed druggies each getting the full-court press to save their lives to return them to the crack pipe just a little better than when we found them, please spare me the usual wailing and teeth-gnashing over the plight of the Holy Underserved. They're getting served plenty.

 

[8744]

So because a person is a drug abuser, they do not deserve medical treatment? A real credit to medicine you are. You seem to have no empathy for those who you perceive as worthless human beings. I would hope that most of us realize we are going to have to treat people that we do not like or even may feel inclined to hate, but the reality is that they are still human even if they are scum. Fortunately you don't make the medical policies; all you can do is come on here and rant about the "holy underserved" and how pre-meds are naive peons.

Hey, Cochise, how many of the Holy Underserved have given medical care to?

None, huh?

 

[WinterLights]

Whoa. Did you not read my post? In the United States, everybody from the CEO of Wal Mart to a useless druggie gets pretty much the same treatment for everything. Now, it's true that the CEO of Wal Mart can fly to Mayo or Duke but my hospital ain't bad and as I have an ICU census this month full of overdosed druggies each getting the full-court press to save their lives to return them to the crack pipe just a little better than when we found them, please spare me the usual wailing and teeth-gnashing over the plight of the Holy Underserved. They're getting served plenty.

Hilarious. Were you sheltered when you were young? That is the only way that I can rationalize your naivety about the plight of others in any sense of the word. Had you experienced even an instant in your life in one of those "holy underserved" people's shoes, I wonder if you would be so quick to dehumanize them. You seem like the type that believes in the ability for anyone and everyone to succeed in life. I would go as far as to say that you think that those who live in poverty are responsible for their circumstances. You probably even think that you got into medical school mostly on your own. Its laughable.

 

[Depakote]

It's like a car crash... I know I should look away, but I just can't.

 

[WinterLights]

Hey, Cochise, how many of the Holy Underserved have given medical care to?

None, huh?

Ah yes. Since I know nothing of treating underserved patients, I do not have a reason to dehumanize them. How many of the holy underserved have you lived with or interacted with outside of work? Better yet, how many of the holy underserved have you actually felt sympathy for? And no, sympathy does not consist of calling your patients winos and druggies. Its easy to debase people when you do not have any sincere compulsion to understand why they are the way they are.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

On the other hand there is a certain Gallic practicality in cleaning the welfare rolls of a few thousand non-productive members of society who just lay there sucking up cradle-to-grave benefits.

 

[8744]

Hilarious. Were you sheltered when you were young? That is the only way that I can rationalize your naivety about the plight of others in any sense of the word. Had you experienced even an instant in your life in one of those "holy underserved" people's shoes, I wonder if you would be so quick to dehumanize them. You seem like the type that believes in the ability for anyone and everyone to succeed in life. I would go as far as to say that you think that those who live in poverty are responsible for their circumstances. You probably even think that you got into medical school mostly on your own. Its laughable.

We're not talking about the success, career goals, relationships, job prospects, lottery success stories, criminal records, jobs, or any other aspect of the lives of the Holy Underserved but only their access and use of medical care in which capacity they want for nothing when it comes to high dollar medical treatment. I have been a resident for three years and counting third and fourth year of medical school in five years I have never seen anyone denied any medical care whatsoever on presentation to any of the several hospitals where I have worked. In fact, the standard practice vis-a-vis winos and druggies is multiple admissions for various sequela of their addictions, many of which are expensive ICU stays with psychiatric consults and attempt at rehab waiting at the other end. Now, you will forgive me for not getting excited about the chances of my sundry addicts getting clean on their sixth or seventh go at rehab but that's hardly a medical problem that can be solved even with huge amounts of money.

The crack pipe is in charge. You are not. Deal with it.

 

[Pedsbro]

It's like a car crash... I know I should look away, but I just can't.

Same here. The been-there, done-that Panda Bear vs. idealistic pre-med. I should get some popcorn

 

[8744]

Ah yes. Since I know nothing of treating underserved patients, I do not have a reason to dehumanize them. How many of the holy underserved have you lived with or interacted with outside of work? Better yet, how many of the holy underserved have you actually felt sympathy for? And no, sympathy does not consist of calling your patients winos and druggies. Its easy to debase people when you do not have any sincere compulsion to understand why they are the way they are.

"Sympathy" is in the dictionary between "sh1t" and "syphilis." What many of my addicted patients need is a kick in the ass and somebody to say, "No, you have used up your lifetime allotment of free medical care."

 

[WinterLights]

We're not talking about the success, career goals, relationships, job prospects, lottery success stories, criminal records, jobs, or any other aspect of the lives of the Holy Underserved but only their access and use of medical care in which capacity they want for nothing when it comes to high dollar medical treatment. I have been a resident for three years and counting third and fourth year of medical school in five years I have never seen anyone denied any medical care whatsoever on presentation to any of the several hospitals where I have worked. In fact, the standard practice vis-a-vis winos and druggies is multiple admissions for various sequela of their addictions, many of which are expensive ICU stays with psychiatric consults and attempt at rehab waiting at the other end. Now, you will forgive me for not getting excited about the chances of my sundry addicts getting clean on their sixth or seventh go at rehab but that's hardly a medical problem. that can be solved even with huge amounts of money.

The crack pipe is in charge. You are not. Deal with it.

You danced around my questions quite nicely.

 

[WinterLights]

"Sympathy" is in the dictionary between "sh1t" and "syphilis." What many of my addicted patients need is a kick in the ass and somebody to say, "No, you have used up your lifetime allotment of free medical care."

In other words, you lack the capacity to truly understand other people. You go around championing the "get-off-your-ass" attitude, as if it was actually the ultimate answer to some timeless question. In reality, it perpetuates the same problems that it tries to remedy.

 

[WinterLights]

Same here. The been-there, done-that Panda Bear vs. idealistic pre-med. I should get some popcorn

Since when does idealism equate with not dehumanizing others? I suppose you will tell me that my views will change when I get into residency? They wont. I have been through far worse than what awaits me, and my perceptions have only been strengthened.

 

[8744]

Same here. The been-there, done-that Panda Bear vs. idealistic pre-med. I should get some popcorn

I'm actually trying to convince you that a policy of benign neglect is, in the long run, better for the Holy Underserved than encouraging them to think of themselves as helpless victims of The Man.

I was once vigorously criticized by my attending in front of a particularly pernicious example of the Holy Underserved and his sloppy fast-food replete family. To say his jaw was on the floor would be an understatement. Here, after all, was an all-powerful tool of the white plutocracy which had enslaved some of his ancestors and given the pox to the rest of them being dressed down like a common criminal, an event that he had not considered possible seeing how I was surely a filthy rich doctor living in a mansion on the better side of town.

When my attending left, I looked at the stunned family and the incredulous patient and said, "Yes, folks, we all have to answer to The Man."

Do you see my point? Society expects something from everybody. From me it expects work, military service, taxes, obeying the law, and my technical and professional skill. From others it expects picking fruit, assembling tacos...anything, absolutely anything at all that is useful but through it all we, each of us, answer to The Man. The Holy Underserved are are but gently beholden to the man. In fact, The Man has almost no suzerainty over them at all because nothing is expected of them. To compare a guy like me or you who has worked their whole lives with some druggies angling for disability is to not understand the obligations of civilization.

Like I always say, I'm not asking my non-compliant, criminally irresponsible patients to graduate college or find a cure for cancer, I'm just asking that they spend a small fraction of their beer and cigarette money for a four-dollar-per-month blood pressure medication or to fill and take their tax-payer provided insulin instead of coming in every four weeks in DKA.

Their personal problems are personal and none of my business.

 

[WinterLights]

I'm actually trying to convince you that a policy of benign neglect is, in the long run, better for the Holy Underserved than encouraging them to think of themselves as helpless victims of The Man.

I was once vigorously criticized by my attending in front of a particularly pernicious example of the Holy Underserved and his sloppy fast-food replete family. To say his jaw was on the floor would be an understatement. Here, after all, was an all-powerful tool of the white plutocracy which had enslaved some of his ancestors and given the pox to the rest of them being dressed down like a common criminal, an event that he had not considered possible seeing how I was surely a filthy rich doctor living in a mansion on the better side of town.

When my attending left, I looked at the stunned family and the incredulous patient and said, "Yes, folks, we all have to answer to The Man."

Do you see my point? Society expects something from everybody. From me it expects work, military service, taxes, obeying the law, and my technical and professional skill. From others it expects picking fruit, assembling tacos...anything, absolutely anything at all that is useful but through it all we, each of us, answer to The Man. The Holy Underserved are are but gently beholden to the man. In fact, The Man has almost no suzerainty over them at all because nothing is expected of them. To compare a guy like me or you who has worked their whole lives with some druggies angling for disability is to not understand the obligations of civilization.

Like I always say, I'm not asking my non-compliant, criminally irresponsible patients to graduate college of find a cure for cancer, I'm just asking that they spend a small fraction of their beer and cigarette money for a four-dollar-per-month blood pressure medication or to fill and take their tax-payer provided insulin instead of coming in every four weeks in DKA.

Their personal problems are personal and none of my business.

Indeed, their problems are not any of your concern. This is why you should not be referring to them using derogatorry names.The fact that you refer to them in such a demeaning manner shows your utter contempt for the lives they lead. Their personal actions fill your mind with thoughts of disgust. Your intense disdain for their lack of productivity reveals your inability to understand the very real, and at this moment, unpreventable factors that lead to their complacency. Or perhaps it just shows how much you really do not care about the factors leading up to a lack of productivity; all you care about is the results of their laziness, and the fact that they get decent medical care when they "do not deserve it."

 

[Lukkie]

Indeed, their problems are not any of your concern. This is why you should not be referring to them using derogatorry names.The fact that you refer to them in such a demeaning manner shows your utter contempt for the lives they lead. Their personal actions fill your mind with thoughts of disgust. Your intense disdain for their lack of productivity reveals your inability to understand the very real, and at this moment, unpreventable factors that lead to their complacency. Or perhaps it just shows how much you really do not care about the factors leading up to a lack of productivity; all you care about is the results of their laziness, and the fact that they get decent medical care when they "do not deserve it."

get off your high horse

 

[Pedsbro]

So Winter...I'm honestly curious...why are arguing? What's the point you're trying to make here? It seems you're suggesting that by somehow not agreeing with the lifestyle of all his patients, PB doesn't treat them the best he could.

Be them drug addicts, obese people, or the stubbornly non-compliant patient, you can't save people from themselves. That's reality. You give them the name of a rehab clinic, a diet and exercise regimen, or the meds, but in the end, it's out of the doc's hands, regardless of how that doc feels about the patient personally. And I would imagine after awhile, it really gets to some docs that so many people don't seem to even try to fix their situations. Don't blame a doc for feeling that way... I agree that some people are victims of circumstance, but for the ones who are not, what do you expect to be done? So honest question...what is your take-home point from all this arguing?

 

[WinterLights]

get off your high horse

Step outside of your sheltered existence.

 

[45408]

Wow... Stop blowing smoke or giving the staff the benefit of the doubt. There is no excuse for that to have happened, period.

Yeah, who needs a judge or a jury to handle these things? Let's put it to the people to vote. Guilty until proven guilty.

 

[45408]

I can say with absolute certainty that the staff would not have waited an hour to respond to a collapsed wealthy patient

Based on WHAT? Your opinion? Your biases? Your feelings?

 

[tncekm]

I would go as far as to say that you think that those who live in poverty are responsible for their circumstances. You probably even think that you got into medical school mostly on your own. Its laughable.

Well, not if you consider the "children" who have no control over their situation. But the adults... hell yeah. There are exceptions, but generally people are responsible for their circumstances... even "poor people".

Now, before you start calling names or saying I'm insensitive you need to realize I'm not just being a jerk. I grew up poor, I lived poor (trailer-park poor, literally), I really knew nothing other than poor because almost everything and everyone I knew exemplified the word. From my experience, I can tell you that most of the time it was adults decisions that landed them where they are. Most of the time the adults were addicts of some sort (usually alcohol).

The sad part is the fact that the kids will think that's all normal and are more "likely" to follow in their parents footsteps, but growing up with a bad example is a poor excuse when in America opportunity is abound.

Having said all that, the people in my poor, addicted neighborhood were generally "nice people", and I genuinely enjoyed them. And, they deserve to be treated like anybody else. I just made this post b/c it drives me nuts when people talk about poor people like they're the result of everyone else's malevolence.

 

[WinterLights]

So Winter...I'm honestly curious...why are arguing? What's the point you're trying to make here? It seems you're suggesting that by somehow not agreeing with the lifestyle of all his patients, PB doesn't treat them the best he could.

Be them drug addicts, obese people, or the stubbornly non-compliant patient, you can't save people from themselves. That's reality. You give them the name of a rehab clinic, a diet and exercise regimen, or the meds, but in the end, it's out of the doc's hands, regardless of how that doc feels about the patient personally. And I would imagine after awhile, it really gets to some docs that so many people don't seem to even try to fix their situations. Don't blame a doc for feeling that way... I agree that some people are victims of circumstance, but for the ones who are not, what do you expect to be done? So honest question...what is your take-home point from all this arguing?

My quarrel has nothing to do with how he treats his patients. To be honest, I have no idea how he treats them. I would guess that he is all smiles and is extremely polite when around them. But underneath all of the formalities, he has no respect for some of the people that he treats. I see how many relate with what he is saying, and I realize that I am really one of the few people here whose life has been affected significantly by the same people that some here attempt to slander.

 

[45408]

So because a person is a drug abuser, they do not deserve medical treatment? A real credit to medicine you are. You seem to have no empathy for those who you perceive as worthless human beings. I would hope that most of us realize we are going to have to treat people that we do not like or even may feel inclined to hate, but the reality is that they are still human even if they are scum. Fortunately you don't make the medical policies; all you can do is come on here and rant about the "holy underserved" and how pre-meds are naive peons.

For some reason, Panda's habit of calling a spade a spade really gets under your skin, but almost none of your accusations are hitting the mark. At no point in his post did he claim that this crack-smoking, wife-beating individual does not deserve medical care.

 

[tncekm]

My quarrel has nothing to do with how he speaks about some of his patients. To be honest, I have no idea how he treats them. I would guess that he is all smiles and is extremely polite when around them. But underneath of the formalities, he has no respect for some of the people that he treats. I see how many relate with what he is saying, and I realize that I am really one of the few people here whose life has been affected significantly by the same people that some here attempt to slander.

Please explain how you were "effected significantly".

 

[45408]

Step outside of your sheltered existence.

Ironic.

 

[WinterLights]

Well, not if you consider the "children" who have no control over their situation. But the adults... hell yeah. There are exceptions, but generally people are responsible for their circumstances... even "poor people".

Now, before you start calling names or saying I'm insensitive you need to realize I'm not just being a jerk. I grew up poor, I lived poor (trailer-park poor, literally), I really knew nothing other than poor because almost everything and everyone I knew exemplified the word. From my experience, I can tell you that most of the time it was adults decisions that landed them where they are. Most of the time the adults were addicts of some sort (usually alcohol).

The sad part is the fact that the kids will think that's all normal and are more "likely" to follow in their parents footsteps, but growing up with a bad example is a poor excuse when in American opportunity is abound.

Having said all that, the people in my poor, addicted neighborhood were generally "nice people", and I genuinely enjoyed them. And, they deserve to be treated like anybody else. I just made this post b/c it drives me nuts when people talk about poor people like they're the result of everyone else's malevolence.

You seem to have little attachment to the community in which you were raised. Would you mind divulging exactly how you ended up in college/on your way to medical school? Please mention specific people and experiences that influenced your life positively. Then think about how your life would have been had you never met those individuals nor experienced those life shaping experiences. I too come from a poor upbringing, and I can tell you that I would (without a doubt) not be where I am today were it not for those few people who positively influenced my life, as well as those feelings of inadequacy triggered by going to schools where people had it much better than I did. Also, being poor is only one indicator of how ****ty of a life you have. Abuse, family/community violence, the prevalence of drugs in the community, educational opportunities, and myriad other things all dictate what people will become. Its okay if you do not believe any of what I just said. I would not expect you to considering your post.

 

[WinterLights]

Ironic.

The troops attempt to come to the rescue.

 

[FruitFly]

Folks, it's Kings County. One of the most careless hospitals in the United States. I can't say I'm surprised.

 

[WinterLights]

Please explain how you were "effected significantly".

I grew up with and am close with a lot of people that would be considered on this board to be "worthless." I have shared food stamps with my friends when they had nothing to eat at their houses, and they did the same for me. I stayed with one of my "worthless" friends for several months when my mother couldn't afford rent and we were kicked out of our apartment. I've had friends that I would hang out with at the salvation army almost all of the time when I was younger. I have even done a lot of the things that "worthless" people do, not that I am proud of doing those things. I have had a lot of things happen to me that most people on this board would kill themselves over. None of this really matters. All that matters is that people who have no idea what they are talking about are the ones quickest to subjugate and demean others. I generally tend not to mind when I hear some of the ignorant statements made on this board, but for some reason Panda really grinds my proverbial gears. Is that enough divulgence for you?

 

[45408]

The troops attempt to come to the rescue.

Lovely insinuation you have there. You sure strike below the belt at the first chance.

 

[WinterLights]

Lovely insinuation you have there. You sure strike below the belt at the first chance.

Did you not come to his aid?

 

[45408]

Did you not come to his aid?

Agreeing with someone is a different concept than coming to their aid. I'm sorry you can't distinguish the two.

 

[Dienekes]

Yeah, like when 15,000 French old people died in nursing homes during a heat wave because the staff were on vacation.

Damn, beat me to it.

 

[WinterLights]

Agreeing with someone is a different concept than coming to their aid. I'm sorry you can't distinguish the two.

Unless you have something else to add that Panda has not, I do not think that I need to engage you in an argument. If anyone would like to debate anything I've said in this thread or anything I've said in general, feel free to PM me. I've lost my interest in defending myself against the onslaught in this public thread.

 

[Dienekes]

On the other hand there is a certain Gallic practicality in cleaning the welfare rolls of a few thousand non-productive members of society who just lay there sucking up cradle-to-grave benefits.

Amen.

 

[Dienekes]

Ah yes. Since I know nothing of treating underserved patients, I do not have a reason to dehumanize them. How many of the holy underserved have you lived with or interacted with outside of work? Better yet, how many of the holy underserved have you actually felt sympathy for? And no, sympathy does not consist of calling your patients winos and druggies. Its easy to debase people when you do not have any sincere compulsion to understand why they are the way they are.

Most of them are the "way they are" because of poor choices, poor breeding or just good ol' fashioned stupidity. I can count on one hand the number of people I have met (and I grew up poor, so I've dealt with a lot of white trash, a lot of ghetto people and more than my share of illegals) that are poor....excuse me "underserved"....,drug-addled, criminals, etc that did not have themselves to blame. The idea that because you've had a tough life, were beaten as a kid, were fondled by a priest, were laid off, don't speak the primary language of this nation, have psychiatric issues, don't possess a green card or because you are not white does not absolve you from being primarily responsible for your stead in life. Deal with it.

 

[Lukkie]

Based on WHAT? Your opinion? Your biases? Your feelings?

his EXPERIENCE - he's PRE-MED

 

[Dienekes]

this crack-smoking, wife-beating individual does not deserve medical care.

They do deserve medical care, but their death is certainly not a loss to society.