Patients self-medicating with antibiotics meant for pet fish?

[physics junkie]

This is the first I've heard of this but I recently came across http://www.reddit.com/r/povertytips which lead to me to this reddit thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/PovertyTips/comments/eh0k5/if_youre_uninsured_and_desperately_in_need_of/

They sell all sorts of antibiotics (amoxicillin, penicillin, tetracycline, etc.) which are for fish. They call them things like "Fish-mox", "Fish-pen", etc. I know you're thinking "but humans aren't fish and animal meds usually have a bunch of impurities that humans can't handle". Well, fish can't handle even the impurities we can handle...so the fish meds are actually more pure than what you get at the pharmacy...and they're cheaper.

Many pet stores sell them, and you can get them online too. I just got a bottle of 100 capsules, each containing 500mg of amoxicillin, for about $30. Since you're supposed to take 1 500mg capsule, 2 - 3 times a day, for 10 days, that's enough for 3 - 5 people.

Obviously, you should look into this **** on your own to determine whether you should even take these...and I'm not a doctor, etc. But if you need antibiotics and are uninsured, there IS a way you can get them. You don't have to die, just because you can't afford to pay some dick in a labcoat thousands of dollars to help finance his new yacht.

There's also a 2002 correspondence in NEJM about this: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200207183470319

I'm pretty shocked. Anyone have any stories to share related to this?

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[GellaBella]

I have a few large fishtanks so I'm aware of all the antibiotics that are available just on a shelf...I hadn't personally had any experience with people self medicating with them until the past year when I had two or three different people on separate occasions mention that I could use them with on myself or on my dog ... As a microbiologist who studied antibiotic resistance in bacteria, those suggestions/that mentality makes me cringe

 

[Morsetlis]

The common antibiotics are so widely available anyway I don't think it really matters if some random person develops a strain of cold virus resistant to Amoxicillin.

 

[jdh71]

The common antibiotics are so widely available anyway I don't think it really matters if some random person develops a strain of cold virus resistant to Amoxicillin.

much to yet learn, you have . . .

 

[wittyalias]

The common antibiotics are so widely available anyway I don't think it really matters if some random person develops a strain of cold virus resistant to Amoxicillin.

One time I had a cold virus that was resistant to all antibiotics. It sucked! But then I found out that was quite common and I was like .What is this world coming to?!

 

[Smurfette]

One time I had a cold virus that was resistant to all antibiotics. It sucked! But then I found out that was quite common and I was like .What is this world coming to?!

Given that antibiotics treat bacterial infections and not viruses, I concur with your assessment that this is "quite common". This is why docs gripe about patients expecting Abx for all URIs; the Abx are overprescribed and usually not indicated as most URIs are viral.

Resistance is a big problem, and is growing exponentially. Once upon a time, MRSA was rare and mostly nosocomial. Now it is very common in the community.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

The capsules in FishMox appear identical to ones sold in blister packs by a certain well known company. Well the colors and the numerical tag on the tablets are the same anyways.

This is a really old trick to getting abx by the way

 

[link2swim06]

last time i got antibiotics they were like $10 max. And since everyone is suppose to have health insurance now I dont think this is a useful way to save money.

 

[tehdude]

I dont think this is a useful way to save money.

Yeah, even if the fish-mox could treat 5 people for $30, amoxicillin at Walmart ($4) would still be cheaper.

 

[Baron Samedi]

The common antibiotics are so widely available anyway I don't think it really matters if some random person develops a strain of cold virus resistant to Amoxicillin.

I remember my first week of Medical School...good times...good times...

 

[physics junkie]

last time i got antibiotics they were like $10 max. And since everyone is suppose to have health insurance now I dont think this is a useful way to save money.

Yeah, even if the fish-mox could treat 5 people for $30, amoxicillin at Walmart ($4) would still be cheaper.

It was my understanding that the cost savings is, presumably, not having to pay to see a physician first.

 

[tehdude]

It was my understanding that the cost savings is, presumably, not having to pay to see a physician first.

Free urgent care clinic?

I doubt the people taking fish antibiotics are paying anything anyway. They are probably the same people on medicaid and/or crowding ERs with their runny noses.

 

[surftheiop]

Free urgent care clinic?

I doubt the people taking fish antibiotics are paying anything anyway. They are probably the same people on medicaid and/or crowding ERs with their runny noses.

This is almost certainly not true, people who are going to take the trouble to research and dose fish antibiotics are probably not the type who want to waste time hanging out in a crowded ER.

 

[El Dooderino]

The common antibiotics are so widely available anyway I don't think it really matters if some random person develops a strain of cold virus resistant to Amoxicillin.

ah, the value of an offshore education

 

[Morsetlis]

ah, the value of an offshore education

Sorry, Pharmacology is Term 5. This is common sense.

Go to any third-world country and you'll see antibiotics all over the pharmacies, available without prescriptions.

The people there are still alive.

It was also the practice of an Asian attending I shadowed to throw Z-tabs to most Asian patients coming in with a "cold" or "pharyngitis". It develops trust, you know: how can the doctor treat me if he didn't give me any medicine?

Cultural competency.

 

[mydodger]

The capsules in FishMox appear identical to ones sold in blister packs by a certain well known company. Well the colors and the numerical tag on the tablets are the same anyways.

This is a really old trick to getting abx by the way

Interestingly enough they are the exact same as their behind-the-counter counterparts. They meet the same USP standards as the pills you get from your pharmacist and many times are manufactured in the exact same plants. They just pill and package them differently.


So while we can argue about the danger in producing resistance, there is no inherent danger from consumption of the pills.

 

[Funky]

I'm not going to lie, I'm really scared of methicillin resistant adenovirus too

 

[surftheiop]

Sorry, Pharmacology is Term 5. This is common sense.

Go to any third-world country and you'll see antibiotics all over the pharmacies, available without prescriptions.

The people there are still alive.

It was also the practice of an Asian attending I shadowed to throw Z-tabs to most Asian patients coming in with a "cold" or "pharyngitis". It develops trust, you know: how can the doctor treat me if he didn't give me any medicine?

Cultural competency.

Hmm interesting....

so maybe all these tropical medicine mission trips are actually trying to figure out why people in the 3rd world have such massive life expectancies and are just so gosh darn healthy?

 

[theseeker4]

Hmm interesting....

so maybe all these tropical medicine mission trips are actually trying to figure out why people in the 3rd world have such massive life expectancies and are just so gosh darn healthy?

That, and to help define their cultural superiority over the West

 

[red10]

so maybe all these tropical medicine mission trips are actually trying to figure out why people in the 3rd world have such massive life expectancies and are just so gosh darn healthy?

 

[physics junkie]

Hmm interesting....

so maybe all these tropical medicine mission trips are actually trying to figure out why people in the 3rd world have such massive life expectancies and are just so gosh darn healthy?

Actually there was quite a bit of centenarian research going on in the tropical island of Dominica while I was there. Life expectancy is not a strong indicator of healthcare quality.

But Morsetlis did say something amazingly dumb.

 

[K31]

The common antibiotics are so widely available anyway I don't think it really matters if some random person develops a strain of cold virus resistant to Amoxicillin.

Sorry, Pharmacology is Term 5. This is common sense.

Yeah, but antibiotics killing bacteria and not viruses is Bio 101.

 

[Laboratorian]

ah, the value of an offshore education

 

[Salient]

ah, the value of an offshore education

lol, and he's still talking down to you guys =\

 

[isoquin]

The common antibiotics are so widely available anyway I don't think it really matters if some random person develops a strain of cold virus resistant to Amoxicillin.

In this order:

ok so he made a silly mistake. cut the guy a break.

 

[xanthomondo]

In this order:

ok so he made a silly mistake. cut the guy a break.

and then tried to cover it up as "cultural competency"

i loled

 

[xanthomondo]

Also is anyone else surprised that fish and humans get the same dose of antibiotics? How big are these fish that are being treated with 500mg amoxicillin?

 

[GellaBella]

It's cause you're dosing the whole tank/pond, not the individual fish. Or the individual fish quarantined in a smaller tank.

 

[Morsetlis]

Mea culpa

 

[michigator04]

Hard to get cheaper antibiotics than this: http://www.publix.com/pharmacy/Free-Medications.do

 

[Instatewaiter]

Given that antibiotics treat bacterial infections and not viruses, I concur with your assessment that this is "quite common". This is why docs gripe about patients expecting Abx for all URIs; the Abx are overprescribed and usually not indicated as most URIs are viral.

Resistance is a big problem, and is growing exponentially. Once upon a time, MRSA was rare and mostly nosocomial. Now it is very common in the community.

I think someone's sarcasm meter isn't working

 

[MotherOfOne]

There's also a 2002 correspondence in NEJM about this: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200207183470319

I'm pretty shocked. Anyone have any stories to share related to this?[/QUOTE]

Yes I do. The stories they say about resistance are BS. I was very sick growing up Autistic and my Mom's doctor gave her antibiotic and other meds to keep on hand and refills etc. I was always on antibiotics and I DiD NOT Devolope RESISTANCE. I believe this story is circulated to cover the corporate animal cruelty where they pump antibiotics into
the animals people eat.

I have a child and he is on the welfare system. Soc Sec, he has a lot of medical conditions. Every single time he has become ill, it has led to infection. Because of him being on Medicaid, the stuff they teach doctors about spanning things out to make more money, many times even when he has had an infection, they will not prescribe antibiotics until he is just about in the hospital.

In a case where he is uncomfortable and they do not take care of him, I feel I should intervene. I am not talking about giving him Morphine. In mostly every culture but ours, this is not unusual. I have known many survivalists however, that have done this by giving antibiotics and been threatened by their spouse with calling police. If people can go buy recreational pot now, it really irks me that anyone could deny care to their child in this type of situation.

What makes a doctor a doctor or a nurse a nurse? Education that ANYONE can get. If one person makes my child feel better who has the education but not the paper, I trust them much better than the Doctor who lets my child suffer.

 

[DermViser]

Yes I do. The stories they say about resistance are BS. I was very sick growing up Autistic and my Mom's doctor gave her antibiotic and other meds to keep on hand and refills etc. I was always on antibiotics and I DiD NOT Devolope RESISTANCE. I believe this story is circulated to cover the corporate animal cruelty where they pump antibiotics into
the animals people eat.

I have a child and he is on the welfare system. Soc Sec, he has a lot of medical conditions. Every single time he has become ill, it has led to infection. Because of him being on Medicaid, the stuff they teach doctors about spanning things out to make more money, many times even when he has had an infection, they will not prescribe antibiotics until he is just about in the hospital.

In a case where he is uncomfortable and they do not take care of him, I feel I should intervene. I am not talking about giving him Morphine. In mostly every culture but ours, this is not unusual. I have known many survivalists however, that have done this by giving antibiotics and been threatened by their spouse with calling police. If people can go buy recreational pot now, it really irks me that anyone could deny care to their child in this type of situation.

What makes a doctor a doctor or a nurse a nurse? Education that ANYONE can get. If one person makes my child feel better who has the education but not the paper, I trust them much better than the Doctor who lets my child suffer.

It's been 3 years since the last reply. I doubt he/she will answer you since he hasn't been on SDN since 2012.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Yes I do. The stories they say about resistance are BS. I was very sick growing up Autistic and my Mom's doctor gave her antibiotic and other meds to keep on hand and refills etc. I was always on antibiotics and I DiD NOT Devolope RESISTANCE. I believe this story is circulated to cover the corporate animal cruelty where they pump antibiotics into
the animals people eat.

I have a child and he is on the welfare system. Soc Sec, he has a lot of medical conditions. Every single time he has become ill, it has led to infection. Because of him being on Medicaid, the stuff they teach doctors about spanning things out to make more money, many times even when he has had an infection, they will not prescribe antibiotics until he is just about in the hospital.

In a case where he is uncomfortable and they do not take care of him, I feel I should intervene. I am not talking about giving him Morphine. In mostly every culture but ours, this is not unusual. I have known many survivalists however, that have done this by giving antibiotics and been threatened by their spouse with calling police. If people can go buy recreational pot now, it really irks me that anyone could deny care to their child in this type of situation.

What makes a doctor a doctor or a nurse a nurse? Education that ANYONE can get. If one person makes my child feel better who has the education but not the paper, I trust them much better than the Doctor who lets my child suffer.

WTF did I just read?!

So wait, if anyone can get this education where exactly did you get yours?! The school of Moms?

 

[circulus vitios]

In a case where he is uncomfortable and they do not take care of him, I feel I should intervene. I am not talking about giving him Morphine. In mostly every culture but ours, this is not unusual. I have known many survivalists however, that have done this by giving antibiotics and been threatened by their spouse with calling police. If people can go buy recreational pot now, it really irks me that anyone could deny care to their child in this type of situation.

Ease up on the bong rips, Mom MD.

 

[username456789]

.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Yes I do. The stories they say about resistance are BS. I was very sick growing up Autistic and my Mom's doctor gave her antibiotic and other meds to keep on hand and refills etc. I was always on antibiotics and I DiD NOT Devolope RESISTANCE. I believe this story is circulated to cover the corporate animal cruelty where they pump antibiotics into
the animals people eat.

I have a child and he is on the welfare system. Soc Sec, he has a lot of medical conditions. Every single time he has become ill, it has led to infection. Because of him being on Medicaid, the stuff they teach doctors about spanning things out to make more money, many times even when he has had an infection, they will not prescribe antibiotics until he is just about in the hospital.

In a case where he is uncomfortable and they do not take care of him, I feel I should intervene. I am not talking about giving him Morphine. In mostly every culture but ours, this is not unusual. I have known many survivalists however, that have done this by giving antibiotics and been threatened by their spouse with calling police. If people can go buy recreational pot now, it really irks me that anyone could deny care to their child in this type of situation.

What makes a doctor a doctor or a nurse a nurse? Education that ANYONE can get. If one person makes my child feel better who has the education but not the paper, I trust them much better than the Doctor who lets my child suffer.

Brings a tear to my eye that this is the type of logic I'm fighting against when parents can't figure out why we won't prescribe their kids antibiotics for the flu.

 

[Robotman]

Its funny how everyone on here was quick to attack Mor's school when they couldn't realize he was trolling. The superiority complex on SDN is incredible.

 

[Psai]

Its funny how everyone on here was quick to attack Mor's school when they couldn't realize he was trolling. The superiority complex on SDN is incredible.

No he wasn't, he just started m1 and had no idea what he was talking about. Then he tried to cover it up. It's obvious why he's an offshore student
get over your inferiority complex

 

[Robotman]

Sorry, Pharmacology is Term 5. This is common sense.

Go to any third-world country and you'll see antibiotics all over the pharmacies, available without prescriptions.

The people there are still alive.

It was also the practice of an Asian attending I shadowed to throw Z-tabs to most Asian patients coming in with a "cold" or "pharyngitis". It develops trust, you know: how can the doctor treat me if he didn't give me any medicine?

Cultural competency.

No he wasn't, he just started m1 and had no idea what he was talking about. Then he tried to cover it up. It's obvious why he's an offshore student
get over your inferiority complex

Nah this proves he was joking.

 

[HiDefGator]

While Publix may sell antibiotics cheaper they still require a script to get them. The script requires time and money to acquire.

I personally buy fish antibiotics because the doctor will not give me a script until I need them. I have asthma and frequently get sick in winter with chest cold. After 2 visits to the ER everyone seems to think it would be cheaper to keep zpak at home through winter. Yet no one will write script for someone not sick yet. The joke is they say just call the office anytime, we can call it in. But if you call the office after 5pm you are told to go to the emergency room if you can't wait til Monday 8am.

 

[pathologyDO]

While Publix may sell antibiotics cheaper they still require a script to get them. The script requires time and money to acquire.

I personally buy fish antibiotics because the doctor will not give me a script until I need them. I have asthma and frequently get sick in winter with chest cold. After 2 visits to the ER everyone seems to think it would be cheaper to keep zpak at home through winter. Yet no one will write script for someone not sick yet. The joke is they say just call the office anytime, we can call it in. But if you call the office after 5pm you are told to go to the emergency room if you can't wait til Monday 8am.

You're joking right?

Never take antibiotics unless prescribed by a physician, and definitely don't be taking any that are meant for animals.

 

[HiDefGator]

so after the physician prescribes them for the 4th time, I feel qualified to do it myself rather than taking a $3000 trip to ER on Saturday night. you guys wanted to know why people did it. I told you.

 

[Psai]

The common antibiotics are so widely available anyway I don't think it really matters if some random person develops a strain of cold virus resistant to Amoxicillin.

heh forgot about this post

 

[that redhead]

and definitely don't be taking any that are meant for animals.

You do know that many of the drugs we use in animals are the same as used in people...?

 

[Jabbed]

Man I started researching this. After a few clicks I found all these survivalist sites that sell the stuff. It's obviously meant for self-medicated human consumption, but it's so funny how they eschew any legal liability by maintaining the pretense that it's for fish:

Q. If the antibiotics for fish are the same as the USP grade antibiotics that are dispensed from human pharmacies then why are should humans not take them also?

A. The law clearly states that any antibiotic for non-human use needs to be labeled as “not for human use” regardless of application. Thomas Labs sources it’s antibiotics from the same USP grade manufacturing as antibiotics used for humans, but we are not doctor’s and do not deal in human health problems. Only a doctor can correctly prescribe antibiotics for specific need in humans. Thomas Labs and JHL Supply/CampingSurvival.com will take no responsibility in the misuse of these products made for animals. If a human is sick and needs antibiotics then it is likely that person also needs the expertise and guidance of a doctor.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

While Publix may sell antibiotics cheaper they still require a script to get them. The script requires time and money to acquire.

I personally buy fish antibiotics because the doctor will not give me a script until I need them. I have asthma and frequently get sick in winter with chest cold. After 2 visits to the ER everyone seems to think it would be cheaper to keep zpak at home through winter. Yet no one will write script for someone not sick yet. The joke is they say just call the office anytime, we can call it in. But if you call the office after 5pm you are told to go to the emergency room if you can't wait til Monday 8am.

Have you tried asthma medication and not, um, antibiotics for your viral infections?

 

[pathologyDO]

You do know that many of the drugs we use in animals are the same as used in people...?

Nice, pushing the vet pharm agenda... obviously jk

My main concern with a human taking animal antibiotics would be dosage. I don't expect someone that would be dumb enough to use fish antibiotics to understand the concept of dose conversions. Another concern, which I'm unsure of, is that of the regulation of fish antibiotics. Something tells me that the quality, pureness, etc. of fish antibiotics would not be up to par with human antibiotics. Those would be my concerns.

 

[Jabbed]

Nice, pushing the vet pharm agenda... obviously jk

My main concern with a human taking animal antibiotics would be dosage. I don't expect someone that would be dumb enough to use fish antibiotics to understand the concept of dose conversions. Another concern, which I'm unsure of, is that of the regulation of fish antibiotics. Something tells me that the quality, pureness, etc. of fish antibiotics would not be up to par with human antibiotics. Those would be my concerns.

I think that they're produced by the same pharmaceutical companies.

 

[Promethean]

Back when I was first on my own, I was living in such extremes that selling plasma was how I got money for groceries. Like most people in my slummy neighborhood, I had no insurance and there were no free clinics nearby. I never took fish antibiotics, but I knew people who did. I'm not better than them, by the way... I was just lucky not to get sick enough to need to consider it. Folks who did resort to them weren't using them for colds, unless there was a very painful strep-like sore throat involved... or for sinus/ear infections which just kept getting worse... or facial cellulitis from that abscessed tooth that they couldn't afford to see a dentist about.

Back then, people weren't using them for every little cold, because it was embarrassing, a sickening reminder of one's position in society being so low that using a veterinary medication seemed like a valid option. And buying fish amoxicillin still involved spending precious money that could have been used for food or clothes or to pay a bill. No one was choosing pet meds because they were trying to save the cost of buying the human drug. After all, you still had to buy the drug at the pet store, at probably higher cost than getting it from a pharmacist. It was about lack of access to a prescriber.

This is why some kind of safety net health coverage for everyone matters. People will find a way to get the care they seek, or at least the care that they need. If you don't want the poor, ignorant, and desperate to ruin antibiotic sensitivity for everyone, they need access to physicians.