PBL heavy curriculum: what has been your experience?

[sapalee]

If you are at a school with an emphasis on PBL... what has been your experience? Love it, hate it, useful?

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[Suncrusher]

before admission: loved the idea of it. seemed like an organic way to learn that was natural for an adult med student and not a middle-schooler

first week: wow, this is fun!

ever since: this is a crazy inefficient way to learn that takes up 6 hours/week in class and 10 hours per week in research outside of class...but in the end I learn whatever disease the PBL is covering reeeaaaaaaally well

summary: It's really inefficient (but powerful) for learning about diseases but also useful for learning how to think like a doctor

 

[pingouin]

Moving to Pre-Allo.

And loved it. Most days.

 

[Jack is Back]

Moving to Pre-Allo.

And loved it. Most days.

lol, seems like an Allo topic.

I don't like it btw. I don't mind learning cases but I feel like we could learn 10 times as many cases if we just read them and talked about them, rather than SOLVING them.

 

[Jack is Back]

before admission: loved the idea of it. seemed like an organic way to learn that was natural for an adult med student and not a middle-schooler

first week: wow, this is fun!

ever since: this is a crazy inefficient way to learn that takes up 6 hours/week in class and 10 hours per week in research outside of class...but in the end I learn whatever disease the PBL is covering reeeaaaaaaally well

summary: It's really inefficient (but powerful) for learning about diseases but also useful for learning how to think like a doctor

exactly. Inefficient. In a system where you're supposed to learn a ton of $h!t in a short amount of time. They've somehow devised a way to FORCE you to learn 30 minutes of information in 10 hours a week. THANKS LCME

 

[Caesar]

First year - Loved it
Second year - It's alright

It makes you think clinically which is a plus. First year was nice because you had 9 hours/week and about 7 of those were spent discussing big topics you need to have cold. I know the "method" is supposed to be peer teaching but usually what we did was everyone learn, come in with questions and get probed by the leader to an appropriate depth.

Second year it is only 4 hours / week which means 3 of talking about issues, but it is really just to make sure everyone is studying the right things. You can't learn second year from anyone, you just do it. I like how free my schedule is this year though.

 

[tiedyeddog]

So glad we don't have it. I'd rather just memorize on my own.

 

[pingouin]

lol, seems like an Allo topic.

Allo is for medical students to discuss topics about being in medical school. It isn't for pre-meds to start threads about 1) how to choose a medical school, 2) how to get into medical school, or 3) what being in medical school is like. That's why we have pre-med forums. There are plenty of current medical students who read Pre-Allo and Pre-Osteo and provide feedback on these issues.

 

[Mithril]

PBL is interesting. It supplements the week's topic with a clinical perspective.

 

[kjamess]

youre probably just as annoying to them

 

[Laryngophed]

PBL >>> "traditional" curricula, IMHO.

 

[FIREitUP]

not for me, personally. i find it to be a lame way for schools to make you try to feel like you're a doctor when you don't know crap.

 

[Jack is Back]

not for me, personally. i find it to be a lame way for schools to make you try to feel like you're a doctor when you don't know crap.

yup. And they take a lot of your time to do it.

Things better than PBL: Sleep, working out, socializing, etc.

We have enough things to learn in 2 years.

 

[thesauce]

yup. And they take a lot of your time to do it.

Things better than PBL: Sleep, working out, socializing, etc.

We have enough things to learn in 2 years.

Agree with these sentiments. After step 1, there's plenty of time to learn in a team-based environment. I don't think the PBL sessions helped me even remotely.

 

[Laryngophed]

For those of you who disliked PBL, how many were in a primarily PBL driven curriculum? My school's main mechanism for teaching is PBL, but I know some schools have "PBL sessions" once or twice a week for an hour or less. That would seem to be a terrible application of the process.

 

[Gigantron]

For those in a PBL curriculum: Do you think it helped you for Step 1 (in terms of 'thinking like a doctor')?

 

[autotroph]

before admission: loved the idea of it. seemed like an organic way to learn that was natural for an adult med student and not a middle-schooler

first week: wow, this is fun!

ever since: this is a crazy inefficient way to learn that takes up 6 hours/week in class and 10 hours per week in research outside of class...but in the end I learn whatever disease the PBL is covering reeeaaaaaaally well

summary: It's really inefficient (but powerful) for learning about diseases but also useful for learning how to think like a doctor

It was my impression that this was the primary goal of PBL.

 

[Laryngophed]

It was my impression that this was the primary goal of PBL.

Critical and clinical thinking two of the espoused goals of PBL. Things like pattern recognition and information management are two other skills that PBL curricula emphasize early in the preclinical years.

I think for you pre-meds considering a PBL curriculum, you need to think about how you do with handling the unknown. PBL doesn't come with a syllabus. Also, think about how you do working in a group. Like it or not, you're dependent on the other people in your lab to teach you. While there are other ups and downs, I think the most important thing is making sure you can handle the freedom that comes with PBL. By necessity you will spend a lot of time out of structured learning environments. Make sure you can handle that and stay on top of your work.

Please feel free to PM if you have any questions about primarily PBL curricula. I can only offer my experience and I'm biased towards PBL because it fits my learning style, but I will try to be objective present the facts as I know them.

 

[MaenadsDance]

PBL sounds fantastic to me because the vast majority of my undergrad education so far has been in small-group settings where students have the primary responsibility to educate one another. I have lecture once a week - everything else is, you study outside of class and then discuss what you've studied in class. I love this method of learning. I mean, sure, there are periods where I'm reading about a 1000 pages a week, but I find it really motivating to know that I'm partly responsible for my peers' education.

 

[thesauce]

For those of you who disliked PBL, how many were in a primarily PBL driven curriculum? My school's main mechanism for teaching is PBL, but I know some schools have "PBL sessions" once or twice a week for an hour or less. That would seem to be a terrible application of the process.

Twice a week. ~4hrs per.

 

[thesauce]

For those in a PBL curriculum: Do you think it helped you for Step 1 (in terms of 'thinking like a doctor')?

Good lord no

 

[sector9]

Allo is for medical students to discuss topics about being in medical school. It isn't for pre-meds to start threads about 1) how to choose a medical school, 2) how to get into medical school, or 3) what being in medical school is like. That's why we have pre-med forums. There are plenty of current medical students who read Pre-Allo and Pre-Osteo and provide feedback on these issues.

The only part of this thread that made you move it to pre-allo is the "Pre-medical" status of the OP. Nothing else, so don't try to justify it away.

When someone pops up in Allo and asks what colleges to recommend that high school students interested in medicine should attend, do you move that thread to hSDN? No, you move it to pre-allo (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9869917). That's a great decision because the opinions of premedical students are much more effective than trying to get high school students to answer the question which is what would happen if you move it to hSDN

If the OP would have had a blank status and said "What has been your experience with PBL? I don't like it" you would have left it there, even if the responses would have been exactly the same and even if the poster was secretly a premed. It's just a witch hunt because the OP was a premed and you don't like "our kind" there

No one in Pre-Allo knows anything about learning medicine in a PBL environment. Therefore, the correct forum should be the one where people can respond, not where the posters status dictates the placement of the thread.

If you hate us premeds that much, then start a "Premedical students can ask current med students anything" thread in allo. That makes it something more official than crossing your fingers that enough med students will respond to make something a meaningful discussion. And you can merge all of our annoying "premed appropriate" threads that pop up in allo into the thread

 

[CodeBlu]

The only part of this thread that made you move it to pre-allo is the "Pre-medical" status of the OP. Nothing else, so don't try to justify it away.

When someone pops up in Allo and asks what colleges to recommend that high school students interested in medicine should attend, do you move that thread to hSDN? No, you move it to pre-allo (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9869917). That's a great decision because the opinions of premedical students are much more effective than trying to get high school students to answer the question which is what would happen if you move it to hSDN

If the OP would have had a blank status and said "What has been your experience with PBL? I don't like it" you would have left it there, even if the responses would have been exactly the same and even if the poster was secretly a premed. It's just a witch hunt because the OP was a premed and you don't like "our kind" there

No one in Pre-Allo knows anything about learning medicine in a PBL environment. Therefore, the correct forum should be the one where people can respond, not where the posters status dictates the placement of the thread.

If you hate us premeds that much, then start a "Premedical students can ask current med students anything" thread in allo. That makes it something more official than crossing your fingers that enough med students will respond to make something a meaningful discussion. And you can merge all of our annoying "premed appropriate" threads that pop up in allo into the thread

This.

 

[Laryngophed]

The only part of this thread that made you move it to pre-allo is the "Pre-medical" status of the OP. Nothing else, so don't try to justify it away.

When someone pops up in Allo and asks what colleges to recommend that high school students interested in medicine should attend, do you move that thread to hSDN? No, you move it to pre-allo (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9869917). That's a great decision because the opinions of premedical students are much more effective than trying to get high school students to answer the question which is what would happen if you move it to hSDN

If the OP would have had a blank status and said "What has been your experience with PBL? I don't like it" you would have left it there, even if the responses would have been exactly the same and even if the poster was secretly a premed. It's just a witch hunt because the OP was a premed and you don't like "our kind" there

No one in Pre-Allo knows anything about learning medicine in a PBL environment. Therefore, the correct forum should be the one where people can respond, not where the posters status dictates the placement of the thread.

If you hate us premeds that much, then start a "Premedical students can ask current med students anything" thread in allo. That makes it something more official than crossing your fingers that enough med students will respond to make something a meaningful discussion. And you can merge all of our annoying "premed appropriate" threads that pop up in allo into the thread

I'm not a mod and I'm fairly anti-"the man," but SDN is pretty consistent in handling these things. This isn't a discussion for medical students. It is one intended for pre-meds and it seems aptly placed in the Pre-allo forum. If the OP had said "What do you think about PBL? I don't like it." The implication would be that he is a med student and would be trying to compare curricula amongst other med students. Even then, that discussion is of more utility here than in the allo med student forum.

 

[sector9]

I'm not a mod and I'm fairly anti-"the man," but SDN is pretty consistent in handling these things. This isn't a discussion for medical students. It is one intended for pre-meds and it seems aptly placed in the Pre-allo forum. If the OP had said "What do you think about PBL? I don't like it." The implication would be that he is a med student and would be trying to compare curricula amongst other med students. Even then, that discussion is of more utility here than in the allo med student forum.

I guess if by "pretty consistent" you are talking about "moving threads about picking a medical school and about picking an undergrad to the same forum" then yes, the mods here are incredibly consistent

 

[CodeBlu]

Pre-allo is the dumping ground. But I love it

 

[Laryngophed]

I guess if by "pretty consistent" you are talking about "moving threads about picking a medical school and about picking an undergrad to the same forum" then yes, the mods here are incredibly consistent

Having read the allo forum for several years, when pre-meds come there to ask questions about picking a med school, the moderators consistently move those threads to pre-allo. I don't know why a mod moved that thread about selecting an undergrad to pre-allo. I'm guessing that when you have tens of thousands of threads on SDN, someone is bound to move something to the wrong place. That doesn't mean that this thread belongs in allo or doesn't belong here.

If you don't like it, you could continue to whine about it and be passive aggressive... or learn a lesson that will serve you well and try to talk to the parties of interest (i.e. the mods via pm) directly for an explanation of the inconsistency. Publicly calling out those higher on the food chain certainly won't make your life any easier when/if you make it to medical school.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Things like pattern recognition and information management are two other skills that PBL curricula emphasize early in the preclinical years.

That sounds like something you could do a whole lot better on your own with a bunch of Step 1 practice questions. You can burn through 2 blocks of questions (92 "cases") in each of those 4 hour sessions rather than however many the school has you do. That's, what?, 46 times as efficient? It also has the added benefit of being good for your Step score (obviously).

 

[mmmcdowe]

I didn't particularly care for it when I was on interviews and having experienced it in med school im glad it is a supplement rather than the major driver of the curriculum. What I do enjoy is 3rd year didactics with attendings, they tend to push it along at a reasonable pace.

 

[Baron Samedi]

youre probably just as annoying to them

You can safely remove the word "probably" from your statement.

PBL is good if you trust your classmates. I don't. I hear wrong information come out of medical students' mouths all the time. Last thing I need is for that to become embedded in my head. During PBL I typically tune out, do what's expected of me, and learn it on my own afterwards. Quite often I've already studied the material my classmates are supposed to be "teaching" the rest of us, and I end up hi-jacking their presentation time to explain the correct version of what they've effectively butchered.

 

[startswithb]

You can safely remove the word "probably" from your statement.

PBL is good if you trust your classmates. I don't. I hear wrong information come out of medical students' mouths all the time. Last thing I need is for that to become embedded in my head. During PBL I typically tune out, do what's expected of me, and learn it on my own afterwards. Quite often I've already studied the material my classmates are supposed to be "teaching" the rest of us, and I end up hi-jacking their presentation time to explain the correct version of what they've effectively butchered.

Unfortunately, this definitely happens. Some people also just can't handle being told they are wrong, even if they are, and will argue against facts. Or, they will make up for the fact that they didn't study by dominating the conversation and reading off of wikipedia during group.

Overall, though, PBL is better than being lectured to. I enjoy problem solving, so working through the cases is fun. We are also given extra first year material thrown in with the cases to help round out the curriculum and there are some lectures. I guess it's nice to have a lot of options for learning the material.

 

[Slack3r]

Quite often I've already studied the material my classmates are supposed to be "teaching" the rest of us, and I end up hi-jacking their presentation time to explain the correct version of what they've effectively butchered.

This is exactly why study groups are also useless.

 

[Myuu]

You can safely remove the word "probably" from your statement.

PBL is good if you trust your classmates. I don't. I hear wrong information come out of medical students' mouths all the time. Last thing I need is for that to become embedded in my head. During PBL I typically tune out, do what's expected of me, and learn it on my own afterwards. Quite often I've already studied the material my classmates are supposed to be "teaching" the rest of us, and I end up hi-jacking their presentation time to explain the correct version of what they've effectively butchered.

Then you're not doing it correctly. Or your school isn't doing it correctly. Or at all.


Not to be biased, or anything...


See also: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=11024582&postcount=12

 

[Baron Samedi]

Then you're not doing it correctly. Or your school isn't doing it correctly. Or at all.


Not to be biased, or anything...

That might very well be the case. I've yet to see it done "correctly", though. And by "correctly", I mean anything resembling a productive use of time. I have a hard time imagining spending 10 hours learning about a single disease could be productive when I could just open up Robbins and read about it in 20 minutes and get all the same(yet actually accurate! Imagine that!) information.

 

[vc7777]

Hmmm...we are almost completely PBL based. We do it correctly, I think. And with style too I might add.

 

[Myuu]

That might very well be the case. I've yet to see it done "correctly", though. And by "correctly", I mean anything resembling a productive use of time. I have a hard time imagining spending 10 hours learning about a single disease could be productive when I could just open up Robbins and read about it in 20 minutes and get all the same(yet actually accurate! Imagine that!) information.

You should come visit us sometime.

 

[Morsetlis]

You guys should video tape it.

 

[Myuu]

You guys should video tape it.

900+ interviewees see it in person every year.

 

[FluffyRabbit]

That might very well be the case. I've yet to see it done "correctly", though. And by "correctly", I mean anything resembling a productive use of time. I have a hard time imagining spending 10 hours learning about a single disease could be productive when I could just open up Robbins and read about it in 20 minutes and get all the same(yet actually accurate! Imagine that!) information.

Ideally one would not just learn that one disease, but its molecular pathogenesis, similar diseases while generating a differential, normal physiologic processes involved, pharmacology of drugs used, diagnostic testing, social issues seen in actual clinical practice, and some current research topics, while talking through it with a bunch of people so you can actually think and understand the material as opposed to memorizing tables in Robbins/Goljan.

Personally, I learn more in PBL than lecture, since I retain so little when I'm a passive participant in the process.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Ideally one would not just learn that one disease, but its molecular pathogenesis, similar diseases while generating a differential, normal physiologic processes involved, pharmacology of drugs used, diagnostic testing, social issues seen in actual clinical practice, and some current research topics, while talking through it with a bunch of people so you can actually think and understand the material as opposed to memorizing tables in Robbins/Goljan.

Personally, I learn more in PBL than lecture, since I retain so little when I'm a passive participant in the process.

Ideally when you're reading Robbins/Goljan you're not just "memorizing tables". Lecture is pretty useless, too. The easiest way to be an "active participant" is to go home and learn all the information on your own. You're active, you're engaged, and you know you're getting the correct information.

And sure, ideally you get all that information in PBL. However, I've found that most of my classmates are inefficient, miss the key points and focus on minutia, have difficulty explaining the concepts, or are straight up inaccurate. There's a few people who do a good job, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Myuu]

Ideally when you're reading Robbins/Goljan you're not just "memorizing tables". Lecture is pretty useless, too. The easiest way to be an "active participant" is to go home and learn all the information on your own. You're active, you're engaged, and you know you're getting the correct information.

And sure, ideally you get all that information in PBL. However, I've found that most of my classmates are inefficient, miss the key points and focus on minutia, have difficulty explaining the concepts, or are straight up inaccurate. There's a few people who do a good job, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

So... you're saying your school has implemented PBL the way we have and they are still terrible at it? Did you read the post I linked you to?

 

[sector9]

So... you're saying your school has implemented PBL the way we have and they are still terrible at it? Did you read the post I linked you to?

Do you find that all of your classmates like the PBL done in the style you linked to? If not, what are the criticisms of your classmates who don't like it?

 

[FluffyRabbit]

Ideally when you're reading Robbins/Goljan you're not just "memorizing tables". Lecture is pretty useless, too. The easiest way to be an "active participant" is to go home and learn all the information on your own. You're active, you're engaged, and you know you're getting the correct information.

And sure, ideally you get all that information in PBL. However, I've found that most of my classmates are inefficient, miss the key points and focus on minutia, have difficulty explaining the concepts, or are straight up inaccurate. There's a few people who do a good job, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

None of us show up to PBL and expect to get all that information. That information can't just appear out of nowhere since you don't know the material to begin with and your group is not going to figure it out from first principles.

As you've alluded to, PBL is most effective when people actually have some idea what they are talking about. This requires some degree of self-study beforehand. What I really enjoy from the process is the teaching others which helps me solidify the concepts, learning details I missed from others, and the discussion which helps me look at the material from different perspectives so that at the end of the day, I feel like I actually understand what is going on.

It might seem repetitive, but I'm not going to remember all the material just by reading it once anyway. Having PBL the next day to review it works better for me than lecture or just reading it again. You're right in that it's difficult to do well, but that's why it's a skill we work on as part of our curriculum. But meanwhile, I personally find it easily the most effective part of my education.

 

[Myuu]

Do you find that all of your classmates like the PBL done in the style you linked to? If not, what are the criticisms of your classmates who don't like it?

The vast majority of them, yes. The 3-4 that don't have completely missed the point and show up having just read rapid review path/first aid/the tiny section in Robbins and have precious little to contribute.

It's also really, really obvious.



...although, the first years in the first one or two months go through a period of adjustment where they figure out just how much research they have to do or to what depth they are expected to understand the topics at hand.

 

[Baron Samedi]

So... you're saying your school has implemented PBL the way we have and they are still terrible at it? Did you read the post I linked you to?

Yes. Your comments on that posted link lead me to believe that our PBL system is identical. I doubt my school does it any more terribly than yours.

 

[Myuu]

Yes. Your comments on that posted link lead me to believe that our PBL system is identical. I doubt my school does it any more terribly than yours.

It certainly doesn't sound that way. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who has your views on PBL here.

 

[Baron Samedi]

It certainly doesn't sound that way. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who has your views on PBL here.

So because I think it's an inefficient system it means my school does things differently than yours does? It's obvious you took to PBL hook-line-and-sinker, forgive those of us who would rather learn the material differently.

At the end of the day I learn the same material you do. The only difference is I end up doing my learning outside of PBL rather than trusting a bunch of 25-year olds who have had 48 hours to learn a topic bumble through a presentation and try and teach it to me.

 

[Myuu]

So because I think it's an inefficient system it means my school does things differently than yours does? It's obvious you took to PBL hook-line-and-sinker, forgive those of us who would rather learn the material differently.

At the end of the day I learn the same material you do. The only difference is I end up doing my learning outside of PBL rather than trusting a bunch of 25-year olds who have had 48 hours to learn a topic bumble through a presentation and try and teach it to me.

No, what I'm saying is that our system actually works, which is something I was quite hesitant about at first. Furthermore, it's a bunch of 17-40-year-olds having a discussion about a topic. No one is trying to teach anyone anything.

But hey, if you decided to go to a school with a system that cannot work for you, there must be something else there that you like.

 

[Kaustikos]

I'll say that I would much rather spend 4-6 hours of my week doing PBL instead of the ICM (Introduction to Clinical Medicine) that we have to go through. I'd rather do case-by-case review like I read in Myuu's link where I actually learn instead of, say, go to a children's daycare for 4 ****ing hours and learn absolutely nothing and have to do a formal write up of the event.

 

[Decicco]

If you are at a school with an emphasis on PBL... what has been your experience? Love it, hate it, useful?

Whether or not a school uses PBL really isn't important. It won't have a significant impact on your education either way. My schools has it and it's nice because it's a change from the big lecture hall. It helps ease you into interacting with faculty and meeting more kids in your class the first year. The medical stuff could be taught just as well in a lecture hall, but it's nice to switch things up sometimes.