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Actually, 30K + one year of attending salary.
If you're not okay with primary care, then going to a DO school is not an ideal option. In the DO world, even general surgery is considered competitive.
If you don't get a 3.6, you will (1) not get into Temple or any other MD program, most likely (since <3.6 is generally considered bad for an SMP GPA), and (2) you will never be accepted into PCOM again. It's a big risk, and there are lot of factors that play into whether it's a worthwhile one for you to take.
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Since you have the PCOM acceptance, you can also consider the year of lost attending salary against yourself from going to the SMP. Unless you have the biggest hard-on for some ultra-competitive subspecialty, take the PCOM acceptance and get started.
And there are plenty of people not matching primary care every single year at DO schools. You have to remember that DO school students are often self-selecting for primary care because that's what they wanted to do in the first place. There's enough room in other specialties to do them as a DO if you're willing to work for it. There's only certain specialties where you should probably just count yourself out of the running as a DO.
Here's an accurate list of what you'd be good for as a DO:
Specialties
And there are plenty of people not matching primary care every single year at DO schools. You have to remember that DO school students are often self-selecting for primary care because that's what they wanted to do in the first place. There's enough room in other specialties to do them as a DO if you're willing to work for it. There's only certain specialties where you should probably just count yourself out of the running as a DO.
Here's an accurate list of what you'd be good for as a DO:
Specialties
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Please give up the PCOM seat, because I'd rather see it go to someone who really wants to be a doctor now.
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Congrats on your acceptance to PCOM! It's a great school. Anecdotally, I do know a PCOM grad that did IM and is in cards now.
In the end, you're weighing an acceptance against a conditional acceptance + more debt + more time. You'll still have to work hard at either institution to match where you want.
In the end, you're weighing an acceptance against a conditional acceptance + more debt + more time. You'll still have to work hard at either institution to match where you want.
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Please correct me if I am wrong, but you have a specific graduate and undergraduate amount you can withdraw from. I do not think they merge together. However, I am not a financial aid expert so grain of salt. Regardless, if you qualified for aid as an undergraduate, you will qualify as a graduate.
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I think it depends on what specialty you want to go into... if you have absolutely no idea, then I would say go to Temple because that way you wouldn't be closing any doors or ruling any specialties out... I've seen DOs who are in neurosurg and other competitive specialties, but it's extremely rare and you really can't count on matching into something like that out of DO school. On the other hand, if you know you want to do something primary care oriented, or if you want to do IM, I would go to the DO school. Try do to a lot of research to improve your app for fellowships down the line... In the big picture, $30k is not a lot of money relatively speaking, so that not be as much of a factor when making a decision. 6 years ago, my really good friend got into a DO school and also had a conditional acceptance at a michigan MD school (contingent on doing well in the post bac)... he knew he wanted to match neurosurg, so he did the 5 year route and ultimately matched into neuro in michigan...
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Gotcha, similar to the Gerber plan.
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Yes... yes.. let the MD flow through you.
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I would go with Temple tbh. I feel like it would be advantageous down the road
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A bird in the hand...
PCOM is a decent program, and you can gain an extra year of salary.
PCOM is a decent program, and you can gain an extra year of salary.
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OP, I am going to give you a rags to riches story and you can determine what you want to do. A friend of mine done the EXACT same thing. She was accepted to 4 DO schools, and interviewed at a few MD schools, but sadly didn't matriculate into any of the MD schools. So one of the MD schools in our state offers a guaranteed acceptance if you complete their SMP program and she took it and ran. Midways through the program she suffered some EXTREME health problems, skipped a lot of classes, and was fearful she killed her medical school dreams. Luckily, this program is VERY forgiving and wants to see their students succeed. She will be starting MD school this year, and she told me she would do it all over again.
Now, like others have said, if you are leaning toward a competitive specialty, the Temple program sounds like a dream. But if you want to become a doctor, go with PCOM. I am likely to be in the same situation as you in the upcoming year, and I will take the SMP program in a heartbeat. Because I don't know what is going to happen with DO's and the upcoming merger, and I would rather take my chances in a SMP program. Good luck, OP!
Now, like others have said, if you are leaning toward a competitive specialty, the Temple program sounds like a dream. But if you want to become a doctor, go with PCOM. I am likely to be in the same situation as you in the upcoming year, and I will take the SMP program in a heartbeat. Because I don't know what is going to happen with DO's and the upcoming merger, and I would rather take my chances in a SMP program. Good luck, OP!
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but from my understanding turning down a DO acceptance does not blacklist you from other DO schools.. just the one where you were accepted and turned down the acceptance. If this is true, I think it makes sense to "go for it" at temple. If you mess up for some reason, I don't think a sub 3.6 GPA at an smp will hold you back from many other DO schools. I personally know someone who did very poorly in an SMP after having a not so great college GPA, but had no trouble getting DO acceptances.
Unless there is something special about PCOM or maybe being in philly, I could see myself taking a calculated risk and accepting the fact that I'd need to go elsewhere if I screw up.
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Unless there is something special about PCOM or maybe being in philly, I could see myself taking a calculated risk and accepting the fact that I'd need to go elsewhere if I screw up.
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OP, instead of thinking about how you can/will achieve the required GPA in the Temple SMP, imo, you should think about what will be your options if you do not meet the said GPA requirement. In other words, if you screw up the temple SMP for whatever reason (life happens), what are your chances then for an acceptance to an MD/DO program? I'm sure you know the answer to this. If I was in your shoes, I would go with PCOM because at least with PCOM I know (presently) I'll be a doc.
Good luck!
Good luck!
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Based on this statement alone, I would choose PCOM because it's well-respected in the Philly area for many years and opens a lot of doors with respect to residency slots. Temple would only be the obvious choice if you think you will likely pick a very competitive residency & fellowship outside of the PA/NJ area where the PCOM reputation would have very little pull.
Plus as others have said --- you might be turning down a sure thing (PCOM) in favor of a "somewhat" sure thing (Temple) and that is risky in itself. Toss in the $30K tuition and loss of one year of attending salary and the PCOM option is looking a lot more attractive.
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Hi Gonnif, I certainly understand and agree with a lot of that. However, I don't think there would much risk because OP would likely still be a very attractive candidate to other DO schools even if he or she does not meet a 3.6 in the SMP for an unlikely reason, especially with a 514 MCAT. If someone thinks this isn't true, I'd be happy to be corrected and OP should likely then go to PCOM.
While I agree with a lot of what you said about the advantages of starting right away and not incurring any risk when it's unnecessary, I think there are a lot of intangible things about applying to medical school that become important to folks. I don't think OP would be posting if he or she was not at least somewhat dissatisfied with their acceptance. I don't really want to turn this into an MD vs DO thing, my feeling is just that OP probably wants to feel like they got what they worked for and did not settle. I don't think you can put a price tag on that. Or I might just be projecting my own feelings about my recent application cycle haha
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Even if you’re hell bent on a hyper competitive specialty like vascular, derm, or neurosurgery, keep in mind that only ~40% of medical school graduates enter the specialty they wanted upon metrication (AAMC survey).
Further, my future DO school matched six students to ortho this year, among other competitive specialties including dermatology, urology, and even a triple-board child/adult psychiatry/neurology this year (half of ortho are AOA, all others ACGME).
I’m not going to lie: if I was in your position, I would probably choose Temple. However, I also don’t have a history of poor science performance in either my MCAT or my GPA. To those saying a weak SMP performance kills your medical school chances, so does failing out of medical school. I personally see few differences between the SMP GPA requirement and success in medical school. Know yourself and choose wisely.
Further, my future DO school matched six students to ortho this year, among other competitive specialties including dermatology, urology, and even a triple-board child/adult psychiatry/neurology this year (half of ortho are AOA, all others ACGME).
I’m not going to lie: if I was in your position, I would probably choose Temple. However, I also don’t have a history of poor science performance in either my MCAT or my GPA. To those saying a weak SMP performance kills your medical school chances, so does failing out of medical school. I personally see few differences between the SMP GPA requirement and success in medical school. Know yourself and choose wisely.
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Hi Gonnif, I certainly understand and agree with a lot of that. However, I don't think there would much risk because OP would likely still be a very attractive candidate to other DO schools even if he or she does not meet a 3.6 in the SMP for an unlikely reason, especially with a 514 MCAT. If someone thinks this isn't true, I'd be happy to be corrected and OP should likely then go to PCOM.
While I agree with a lot of what you said about the advantages of starting right away and not incurring any risk when it's unnecessary, I think there are a lot of intangible things about applying to medical school that become important to folks. I don't think OP would be posting if he or she was not at least somewhat dissatisfied with their acceptance. I don't really want to turn this into an MD vs DO thing, my feeling is just that OP probably wants to feel like they got what they worked for and did not settle. I don't think you can put a price tag on that. Or I might just be projecting my own feelings about my recent application cycle haha
I wonder how many DO acceptances their attractive MCAT got them. If they turned down others for PCOM, why would they later reapply to even lesser choices, in their mind, if Temple doesn’t work out? Talk about settling.
But. . .
WHY WOULD ANYONE APPLY TO A MEDICAL SCHOOL THEY WOULD BE DISSATISIFIED ATTENDING? Say they didn’t realize this until after the interview, why not WITHDRAW their app? If OP thought PCOM is settling they shouldn’t have applied or kept their app active and wasted people’s time.
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In my mind, there are a lot of osteopathic schools out there that match PCOM in terms of ranking or whatever, and I'm sure OP would be more than competitive for those options.
Regarding your second point, I don't know if it's as black and white as being fully dissatisfied vs. fully satisfied. Lots of people apply to backups because they know that this process is incredibly competitive, and are likely quite satisfied with whatever they are successful with. If the OP was not accepted to the Temple program, he or she may have been more than satisfied with PCOM (and I don't even know whether that's OP's feelings about it; I'm just sort of projecting tbh). I was personally very satisfied with the osteopathic school I was planning on attending until I was recently accepted to an allopathic school.
To me, the options seem much more like the following: 1) start med school right away at PCOM or 2) give up a year for the very high likelihood of matriculating to temple (or the much less likely option of attending a different DO school) and the vanishingly tiny likelihood of matriculating nowhere.
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Well, as of today, OP either wasn’t accepted at those options or they picked PCOM over those options, so there’s that. (In terms of settling. Not a good argument)
Many people apply to DOs as back ups and my point is that one should never apply, or keep their app active, at a school they won’t be more than happy to attend. It’s the ONLY outright acceptance he has and that speaks volumes in terms of reapplying with the same app next cycle, and especially an app with a less than stellar SMP gpa.
(I agree that we don’t know OPs exact feelings. I’m speaking in general about students that apply to schools they actually wouldn’t want to attend)
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One thing you're missing though is the fact that by the time he/she re-applies to DO schools, he's gonna have to retake that 514 due to his/her MCAT expiring.Hi Gonnif, I certainly understand and agree with a lot of that. However, I don't think there would much risk because OP would likely still be a very attractive candidate to other DO schools even if he or she does not meet a 3.6 in the SMP for an unlikely reason, especially with a 514 MCAT. If someone thinks this isn't true, I'd be happy to be corrected and OP should likely then go to PCOM.
While I agree with a lot of what you said about the advantages of starting right away and not incurring any risk when it's unnecessary, I think there are a lot of intangible things about applying to medical school that become important to folks. I don't think OP would be posting if he or she was not at least somewhat dissatisfied with their acceptance. I don't really want to turn this into an MD vs DO thing, my feeling is just that OP probably wants to feel like they got what they worked for and did not settle. I don't think you can put a price tag on that. Or I might just be projecting my own feelings about my recent application cycle haha
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these are totally all fair points. I guess I'm biased because when I researched SMPs after graduating, temple and tulane's were the two that stood out to me as the only SMPs where admission meant something in terms of likelihood of matriculating. They seemed a lot more like being accepted to a 5 year MD program vs a cutthroat audition for medical school.
@lenspx i didn't see anything about the MCAT expiring but that would certainly be something to take into consideration. I think if i was in OPs shoes, I would just go for it and think of it as a conditional acceptance to a 5 year program instead of a tryout for medical school. OP has already met the MCAT requirement, has effectively interviewed for a seat in the medical school and now only has to make a 3.6 happen as a vast majority of students in the program do:
ACMS Course Schedule (10 months)
Fall
Fundamentals of Biochemistry
Molecular Basis of Microbiology and Immunology
Principles of Physiology
MCAT prep (if required)
Spring
Medical Anatomy
Medical Pharmacology
Special Topics in Medicine
Case Based Problem Solving
MCAT prep (if required)
perhaps i'm being naive but this to me looks like the type of thing someone who scored a 514 on his MCAT could knock out of the park.
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If you understand the risk of turning down an acceptance to a respected do school for a decent chance at an MD school, go for it. FWIW, I think you can pull the gpa given your recent history. It’s a guaranteed acceptance as long as you keep the 3.6?
Also, just as a related note, a friend of my wife’s has a husband at pcom. He just found out he needs to move 2-3 hours away for his 3rd year because they don’t have enough rotation spots in Philly for a big chunk of students. That probably isn’t going to happen to you at Temple.
Also, just as a related note, a friend of my wife’s has a husband at pcom. He just found out he needs to move 2-3 hours away for his 3rd year because they don’t have enough rotation spots in Philly for a big chunk of students. That probably isn’t going to happen to you at Temple.
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Correct. Temple gives you the option when you apply to apply for Saint Luke’s or Geisinger to do your rotations (and Temple University Hospitals, obviously).
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Well, I was thinking for most schools MCAT expires after 3 years. So if he/she took it last year before applying last cycle, his/her MCAT is already 1 year old, after the SMP if he/she doesn't get into Temple, it turns 2 years old, so he/she'd be fine for one cycle of DO application. But if he/she took the MCAT anytime earlier than January 2017, he/she might have to retake that decent 514, and besides having to go through the MCAT prep again, he/she'd have to be able to hit close to the same numbers again.
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If you will regret taking the temple option, then just go for it. It is a year of lost attending salary and 30k in debt, so it’s really a potentially 250k+ difference. But you need to be happy, and if you don’t think you’d be happy at pcom, then just do it. Just remember that **** happens and your acceptance to temple is conditional, while your acceptance to pcom is not.
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PCOM
While you meet the MCAT requirement, the courses will be challenging, and you never know what can happen. I had a family member pass away during the end of my first semester of med school. It affected me a lot, and that trickled down to school. While that program is great, and I'd recommend that over any other post-bacc, you have a medical school acceptance in hand.
Don't risk anything potentially happening that could potentially inhibit you such as even getting a 3.5 in the program, which would then cost you 2 years in total at minimum, 2 years potential salary, and an extra $30k in debt if the worst happens.
Also, match lists are partially self-selective and you can't really look at it like that (too much).
While you may want to be an MD more so than a DO, it seems as though you'd also prefer being a physician rather than not.
I'd also add that if you were to, for whatever reason, not meet the 3.6 and matriculate to Temple, you could also probably kiss applying to PCOM subsequently goodbye since you'd be giving up an acceptance, and then you'd also have to explain on apps that you have once before been accepted to medical school.
Based on the info you provided, I would choose PCOM. I'll be attending RowanDO after being wait listed by MD. Sure, the MD tag sounds nice but lets be real, most people want it just for the letters on their white coat. If you were dead set on a speciality like ortho / derm, I would say definitely go to Temple ACMS. If not, PCOM is a fantastic school and won't really close any doors for you. Lots of specialities out there and you'll find one you're happy with. Plus it's still Philly! Personally, I'm very eager to start my med school journey and wouldn't be able to wait for a conditional acceptance. Good luck!
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This. If something happens and Temple falls through, you can basically kiss all DO schools goodbye. Why would they accept an applicant who was already accepted to a DO and decided to turn it down? Especially because it was to try to get an MD (meaning you don't want a DO). Additionally, medical schools in general (not just DO) look negatively on anybody who has turned down a previous acceptance for anything except severe illness or the like (this sentence roughly paraphrased from @Goro on older threads ). Consider this if you do need to apply again.
Granted you probably will be able to achieve your dream at Temple, and you have done a good job so far and can be proud of yourself. Trust the good instinct you've developed over the course of this thread. Take your acceptance, take your $250k leg up (basically pays for medical school). You don't want to be an anxious pre-med for a another year.
That's my take.
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In my (unprofessional, pre-med) opinion, taking the PCOM acceptance makes sense. Any medical school acceptance is a bird in the hand. Also, don't you have to report prior acceptances in subsequent applications?
As the great Gonnif stated above, over half of MD seniors go into PCP (IM, FP, Peds, OB/GYN). I feel like anyone starting medical school (whether it be MD or DO) should be open to potentially working in PCP. Isn't the goal to work in a profession in which your helping others?
If one can't outcompete MD applicants for an MD acceptance, what leads one to think they can outcompete their MD colleagues for a competitive surgical residency? I'm not saying it can't happen, but I certainly would consider stats over intuition. Even if you went w/ the Temple SMP program and got accepted to Temple, your still more likely to work in PCP than become a surgeon.
Also - the med school application process is super unforgiving. You could have perfect stats, GPA, letters of recs, personal statements and still not get an acceptance. Be thankful/humble and become a physician!
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This.
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It might be a trivial point in your decision-making --- but what are the student housing options around PCOM?
Every time I drive in Philly it seems the Schuylkill Expressway is always horribly backed up --- I think the "Sure-Kill" is even rated as one of the most congested highways in America. I couldn't imagine dealing with traffic problems every morning and afternoon going to & from classes. I would imagine Temple would have more available housing nearby?
Every time I drive in Philly it seems the Schuylkill Expressway is always horribly backed up --- I think the "Sure-Kill" is even rated as one of the most congested highways in America. I couldn't imagine dealing with traffic problems every morning and afternoon going to & from classes. I would imagine Temple would have more available housing nearby?
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Plenty of places on City Ave, Manayunk, East Falls, and Roxborough. All of which avoid the Schuylkill.
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Main St in Manayunk is the best for convenience of basically everything - the school, the train, the highway, things to do - the wissahickon trail, movies, bars, restaurants. All walking distance minus the school (5 min drive).
Most people who I know who go to/went to Temple dont live around it because its not a good area. Most (again who I personally know or have directly talked to) live in other parts of the city, and some outside of the city. On the other hand, manaynk and roxborough are filled with a mix of med students from PCOM and Drexel (in east falls) with a few Temple sprinkled in.
Most people who I know who go to/went to Temple dont live around it because its not a good area. Most (again who I personally know or have directly talked to) live in other parts of the city, and some outside of the city. On the other hand, manaynk and roxborough are filled with a mix of med students from PCOM and Drexel (in east falls) with a few Temple sprinkled in.
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That is one of the core secrets to happiness in Philly life
Absolutely! I will find any alternate route possible if I can lol
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Actually the Sure-Kill is a nice road to drive on after 11pm --- very little traffic and you can fly like the wind
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Let me give you my perspective as a DO ortho, soon to be starting a fellowship. I’m all DO, DOs rock. However, going DO will limit some opportunities and close some doors. Just realize that. Public doesn’t care if you’re a DO, you won’t have any shortage of patients, you’ll make the same amount of money as MDs in your specialty. But getting in to top programs would be difficult, if not damn near impossible, regardless of your performance at DO school. I can go into details but you already have several threads discussing this.
Therefore, if you’re ok with the fact that you’ll likely end up in primary care, or if you do decide to specialize, will have a harder time getting a spot (any spot, forget top programs), a DO school is just fine. You’ll become a doctor, you’ll take care of patients, you’ll move on with your life.
However, if you have even any incilination to specialize in anything surgery, or even medicine, I would take that Temple guaranteed SMP and study my ass off. Same advice if you want to be in academia. It’ll be tough, but it won’t close any doors at this stage of the game. But remember, the doors will be closed if you perform poorly in your preclinical classes and USMLEs.
On average, it is more difficult to match in prettt much any specialty as a DO, even those that are middling in competition (EM, Anethesia, Rads). Your average MD applicant will easily secure a spot, likely at an upper tier program. Your average DO will just struggle to match and would be happy to take any program. I know people that failed their classes and had terrible USMLE scores that matched EM/Anesthesia. They were all MDs, doubt that a DO could pull that off.
Therefore, if you’re ok with the fact that you’ll likely end up in primary care, or if you do decide to specialize, will have a harder time getting a spot (any spot, forget top programs), a DO school is just fine. You’ll become a doctor, you’ll take care of patients, you’ll move on with your life.
However, if you have even any incilination to specialize in anything surgery, or even medicine, I would take that Temple guaranteed SMP and study my ass off. Same advice if you want to be in academia. It’ll be tough, but it won’t close any doors at this stage of the game. But remember, the doors will be closed if you perform poorly in your preclinical classes and USMLEs.
On average, it is more difficult to match in prettt much any specialty as a DO, even those that are middling in competition (EM, Anethesia, Rads). Your average MD applicant will easily secure a spot, likely at an upper tier program. Your average DO will just struggle to match and would be happy to take any program. I know people that failed their classes and had terrible USMLE scores that matched EM/Anesthesia. They were all MDs, doubt that a DO could pull that off.
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Actually the Sure-Kill is a nice road to drive on after 11pm --- very little traffic and you can fly like the wind
Ah, well, I have no problems driving on it then lol or in the wee hours of the morning
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I didn’t have a car when I lived in Philly. It made everything so much simpler lol. Of course I didn’t need to go out to pcom.
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Yeah lol
If youre heading to Center City it isnt too bad to not have a car. My husband takes the train every day to avoid the hassle.
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Sigh... DOs are second class citizens in the eyes of PDs.
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You should know the rules of the game before you start. It’s not impossible, but you’re at a disadvantage. Now that you know it, you know what you have to do to get where you want to go.
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How did you make it through to an ortho residency?
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CC is not that hard to get, cards is very competitive. Both can be attained as a DO, but you’d definitely have an easier road as an MD, you can ask any medicine resident.
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Not sure if this is sarcastic. I made it through five years ago, when things were a bit more certain. Still had to crush them boards and do well in school.