PD Quit@Duke... should I be worried??

[EMalldaway]

So...

A friend of mine at my home program (Duke) overheard the chief resident at Duke this week talking about a program director change. Turns out, she (the chief) was saying that Susan Promes has left to start a new residency program in San Francisco. As someone who was planning on applying to EM at Duke and ranking it highly, should I be worried about this in terms of the effect on the residency?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[FoughtFyr]

So...

A friend of mine at my home program (Duke) overheard the chief resident at Duke this week talking about a program director change. Turns out, she (the chief) was saying that Susan Promes has left to start a new residency program in San Francisco. As someone who was planning on applying to EM at Duke and ranking it highly, should I be worried about this in terms of the effect on the residency?

You should be more worried that, prior to applying you have already decided your ROL. Apply there, see who they hire to take her place and how they respond to her departure. Then apply some other places and see where you "fit" best...

- H

 

[Apollyon]

So...

A friend of mine at my home program (Duke) overheard the chief resident at Duke this week talking about a program director change. Turns out, she (the chief) was saying that Susan Promes has left to start a new residency program in San Francisco. As someone who was planning on applying to EM at Duke and ranking it highly, should I be worried about this in terms of the effect on the residency?

Dr. Promes has not left yet - she is in until 30 June 2007, and is making the call re: who gets interviewed, and will be there the whole time. Believe me - BELIEVE ME - she is involved. I have no inside info concerning her successor - I don't even know if they'll do it from in-house or from outside, but the program is several layers deep in people if the search is indeed in-house.

PDs change all the time, and programs survive. For a while, Wyatt Decker up at Mayo was both department chair AND PD - call THAT a thankless job.

I wouldn't worry - she won't leave a burning husk. The program can go on autopilot if needed for a while even after she leaves (because of the way the program is constructed and run) until someone else comes in, but that won't happen.

 

[Wahoo]

Sad to hear that she is leaving... many advisors/attendings I've spoken with have mentioned that they felt that Dr. Promes was Duke's strongest asset.

While I'm sure they will find a strong program director to replace her, uncertainty is never a selling point when it comes to making one's rank list.

 

[southerndoc]

I'm sure she left because she wanted to, and not because Clem (Section Chief) wanted her to. I would be more worried had Clem asked her to leave.

 

[Apollyon]

I'm sure she left because she wanted to, and not because Clem (Section Chief) wanted her to. I would be more worried had Clem asked her to leave.

She's from the Bay area, and she trained at Highland. It's a dream job for her. That's why she took it.

 

[roja]

I don't think it is a problem in that it signals something is wrong with the program. People change for many reasons.

The uncertainty will come in that you will be interviewing with ONE PD who has thier own philosophies, ideas, etc and start your training under another- one whom you will not have interviewed.

Worse case scenario- you pick a program because of the 'feel' you get not just from the residents, etc but because of the PD (never understand the importance of a PD in being the guiding force of a residency) and end up with someone who clashes with what you want/need in a program.

Best Case?- they will end up being similar enough and it won't matter.


Apparantly this happened years ago (way before my time) at my program. The incoming interns had a fit because the PD's had very different beliefs/personalities.


Don't completely exclude it but be aware. It might be possible that they will know by the time you are interviewing who will be the PD and you can get a feel for what the 'new view' will look like.

 

[MightyShorty]

Well, EMalldaway, if you are really interested staying at Duke, you're actually in a good position to find out all the latest scoop. Since it's your home school, you can probably even be involved in the process if you want to. Duke administrator has been giving Dr. Promes a lot of pressure to retain a Duke student this year (no Duke med grad has stayed at Duke for EM). Unlike other applicants, their one shot in talking to Duke about this this is during the interview while you will be at Duke all the time. Take advantage of it!

 

[Apollyon]

Just as an aside, there was only 1 Duke student last year that applied for EM (she matched).

 

[Tampa1]

Dr. Promes has not left yet - she is in until 30 June 2007, and is making the call re: who gets interviewed, and will be there the whole time. Believe me - BELIEVE ME - she is involved. I have no inside info concerning her successor - I don't even know if they'll do it from in-house or from outside, but the program is several layers deep in people if the search is indeed in-house.

PDs change all the time, and programs survive. For a while, Wyatt Decker up at Mayo was both department chair AND PD - call THAT a thankless job.

I wouldn't worry - she won't leave a burning husk. The program can go on autopilot if needed for a while even after she leaves (because of the way the program is constructed and run) until someone else comes in, but that won't happen.

I'm new here and this is my first post and not too sure how this works. I am currently at USF and interested in EM. This person posts that PDs change all the time. Anyone know of any others? I heard earlier this year from residents at Jax-Shands that the PD was going to change but didn't happen. Is this true and is there going to be a change?
The news at Duke is interesting...curious who her successor will be (big shoes to fill).

 

[SolidGold]

Always interesting to see who else at USF posts on here...anyway, I doubt it's a big deal that the PD is leaving, they do change often.

I didn't apply to Duke because the EM program is a division of their surgery department, not it's own department, meaning it is not independently run and funded. I'm sure the experience there is still a good one though.

 

[Apollyon]

I didn't apply to Duke because the EM program is a division of their surgery department, not it's own department, meaning it is not independently run and funded. I'm sure the experience there is still a good one though.

It's too bad you didn't research that just a little bit more. Because the administrative Department of Emergency Medicine is making a profit, the academic Division of Emergency Medicine gets free rein over how the division is run and funds are spent. Duke revolves and rotates around research, and, now that research is up and running and producing, the Division is getting closer to getting their slice of the pie (department status).

 

[DrQuinn]

Always interesting to see who else at USF posts on here...anyway, I doubt it's a big deal that the PD is leaving, they do change often.

I didn't apply to Duke because the EM program is a division of their surgery department, not it's own department, meaning it is not independently run and funded. I'm sure the experience there is still a good one though.

Dude. That means very very veryyyyyy little really from a resident's standpoint. Where I did my residency, we were part of the department of internal medicine. Univ of MD is part of the dept of surgery. Who cares. As long as the PD isn't a wuss (havne't met an EM PD who IS a wuss, BKN is a tattood bad-ass), it really isn't an issue.

Sucks that you are removing programs based on that criteria, bro.

Q

 

[basementbeastie]

UMD is now its own dept of EM

 

[deleted109597]

You should only be worried if the Lacrosse coach takes over. Otherwise, the ship will keep sailing.

I liked her though. And I can't go to San Francisco. Oh well. If and when I match there, hopefully I will like the new one as well.

 

[SoCuteMD]

You should only be worried if the Lacrosse coach takes over. Otherwise, the ship will keep sailing.

I liked her though. And I can't go to San Francisco. Oh well. If and when I match there, hopefully I will like the new one as well.

So, when I lived in CHapel Thrill I used to tutor for The Princeton Review. In that matter of a year I had two now infamous students. One murdered both of his parents, the other went on to play lacrosse at Duke. That was the end of tutoring for this chica.

 

[WilcoWorld]

You have quite an impact on your students, eh?

 

[southerndoc]

I didn't apply to Duke because the EM program is a division of their surgery department, not it's own department, meaning it is not independently run and funded. I'm sure the experience there is still a good one though.

You may miss out on some great programs. Some of the newer programs are still divisions of other departments. Even some of the older, more established EM residencies are divisions of other departments. For example, the Univ of Chicago is a well respected residency and is not a department.

I am a resident in a section of surgery. I've been here 2.5 years and I cannot tell the difference. We operate as if we're our own department. Surgeons don't "run the show" or anything like that. We get along with them very, very well (the interdepartmental relations where I am is awesome). Yes, our funding ultimately goes through the chair of surgery, but he also realizes the need for funding to run an EM section and to fund a residency.

 

[SolidGold]

Wow, surprised by the response I got...let me clear things up here....

It wasn't my sole reason to take it off my list...truth be told, I'm just not a fan of Durham (neither is my girlfriend). I was selective and didn't apply to places I would not want to live in. I've got interviews at schools I consider great, including USF and Georgetown (both of which are NEW), which are in my preliminary top 3 (the other being in Baltimore, which is fairly new too). I did apply to another program that is a division of surgery and invited to interview (which I accepted) but it's in a place I would want to live in.

My home school is USF (can't believe you forgot that Quinn), so I know how good a program can be when it's a division.

Relax folks...I did a ton of research and I even mentioned that I'm sure residency at Duke would be a good experience, but some programs are not for everyone. Thank you.

 

[deleted109597]

Relax folks...I did a ton of research and I even mentioned that I'm sure residency at Duke would be a good experience, but some programs are not for everyone. Thank you.

No, I must yell at you some more. Umm, yeah, and stuff. I'm already to the point where I am penciling through some interviews, and going to mark them out completely if and when I get my next invite.
When you apply geographically, you end up with some programs that are different mentalities than the ones you think you'll like. So sometimes you just mark them off.

I don't think they were all saying bad things about you SG, just watching out for you so that you don't blow off programs for esoteric reasons. I mean, I only applied to 3 year schools, because that extra year is a $150K mistake .

 

[DrQuinn]

My home school is USF (can't believe you forgot that Quinn), so I know how good a program can be when it's a division.

I didn't forget, trust me. But when I post publicy, I make very little comments as to a person's real identity or any recognizable factors.** I remember all those little details (PD in training?!)... like how Roja's innumerable body piercings, Apollyon and Hornet like whorish pixies, and MikeCWRU is a great spooner.

**the true mark of a good SDNer!

Q

 

[roja]

I didn't forget, trust me. But when I post publicy, I make very little comments as to a person's real identity or any recognizable factors.** I remember all those little details (PD in training?!)... like how Roja's innumerable body piercings, Apollyon and Hornet like whorish pixies, and MikeCWRU is a great spooner.

**the true mark of a good SDNer!

Q

ahem. they are numerable. you make me sound like a walking jangling magnet.

 

[BKN]

Dude. That means very very veryyyyyy little really from a resident's standpoint. Where I did my residency, we were part of the department of internal medicine. Univ of MD is part of the dept of surgery. Who cares. As long as the PD isn't a wuss (havne't met an EM PD who IS a wuss, BKN is a tattood bad-ass), it really isn't an issue.

Sucks that you are removing programs based on that criteria, bro.

Q

Solid,

There are very good reasons to want EM to be an independent academic department. If you are not, there is a layer of obstruction between the chief and decision-making and planning responsibility (chair to dean). Go-lytely indcated q 2 weeks. It's also easier to give out goodies to your troops if you are a chair. The reason new units are typically started as divisions is to allow the (usually) junior leaders to be nurtured and protected by more senior academics until ready to move up. That can be a very good thing, or if the supervising chair is too controlling, a bad thing. In any case, IMNHO, the most important job for the division chief is to develop his program to be independent as quickly as possible. Even better things happen after you make the jump. It's also easier to do this in a small place than a big place. It took me 8 years; I think it took the guys at the Hop 25. Otherewise you're left saying "I'm not really the chairman/boss but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

That said, I agree with Queenie that from the resident's viewpoint this matters less. Most good teaching faculty don't make their employment decisions on the unit's academic status. It will matter to research faculty, however.

Oh and BTW the tattoo is a cadeuceus with a western diamondback and reads "Don't tread on my patients or my residents."

 

[a_ditchdoc]

ahem. they are numerable. you make me sound like a walking jangling magnet.

Is that where the jingling noises I heard came from? I kept looking for loose change in my pocket. Now I know why you avoid the MRI room..

 

[deleted109597]

Oh and BTW the tattoo is a cadeuceus with a western diamondback and reads "Don't tread on my patients or my residents."

Instead of an Asklepios? What's that all about?

The snake I could see.

 

[roja]

Is that where the jingling noises I heard came from? I kept looking for loose change in my pocket. Now I know why you avoid the MRI room..

I have protectors to keep them from making jingling noises.

 

[FoughtFyr]

I didn't forget, trust me. But when I post publicy, I make very little comments as to a person's real identity or any recognizable factors.** I remember all those little details (PD in training?!)... like how Roja's innumerable body piercings, Apollyon and Hornet like whorish pixies, and MikeCWRU is a great spooner.

**the true mark of a good SDNer!

Q

Yeah but Quinn, you've been "outed" for a while...

And roja never gave up the exact location of the piercings (please do tell!)

- H

 

[roja]

Yeah but Quinn, you've been "outed" for a while...

And roja never gave up the exact location of the piercings (please do tell!)

- H

Never. Then I will no longer be surrounded by an air of mystery!

 

[EMalldaway]

Never. Then I will no longer be surrounded by an air of mystery!

Thanks for all the feedback, both through the thread and via private message. I understand what many said about focusing on the program and not the program director.