Penn State (3+5 Accelerated Orthopedics Pathway) vs Duke

[hopefulFutureDoctor2020]

EDIT: Removed Post, I chose Duke. Maybe I'll update this post a few years from now with my thoughts after the fact on if I made the right choice. So far, I 1000000% made the right choice going to Duke 4/14/2021

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[2020applicantxo]

Easily go Penn State! You have a guaranteed ortho match that’s a major advantage. And if you for sure go ortho, you will be making enough money to gain back what you spend. Will save you a lot of time and effort

 

[Yhwach]

How do you know you like ortho?

 

[MrPooperScooper]

If you're 100% set on Ortho, hands down Penn State. It will save you so much anxiety and stress

 

[9blade]

If you're 100% set on ortho, easily Penn State.

 

[Engrailed]

If you’d like a stress free path to ortho, Penn State.

if you want to continue working hard, challenge yourself, explore the unknown, Duke.

either way, can’t go wrong!

 

[2020applicantxo]

I appreciate your question. But also, I have written enough essays about this that I don't feel like giving a full answer. Just trust me when I say I know, and give me your opinion on which school you think is best. I hope this isn't coming across as snarky, arrogant, or anything negative. I just have had to answer that question in every interview ever cause I have written about it in pretty much every essay.

Based on what you have said, I definitely think Penn State is the way to go. While, in my opinion, Penn State is definitely prestigious, Ortho is one of the toughest specialties to match into, so getting into any program is a major accomplishment. Also, you might really like Pennsylvania, and you don’t seem to like N.C. enough to stay another 4 years. I’m a firm believer that you thrive where you are the happiest, and the stress free and possibly more positive environment for you at Penn State seems ideal!

 

[camnewton1]

Congrats, two great choices. What are your end career goals? If you want to go into private practice in Illinois, really Penn State should be fine. However, if you want to got to HSS for residency and become a big time academic or explore other areas outside of medicine ie innovation/research/policy etc. then Duke would be choice.

Ortho is incredibly competitive, even going to a top school like Duke will not make your life that much easier in terms of matching. You're still going to have to hustle from day 1. It seems that you're dead set on ortho, so I don't see what you would gain from going to Duke, other than the things I briefly mentioned first.

 

[2020applicantxo]

Thank you all for your opinions!

I'm frankly a little surprised there is unanimous support for Penn State. I was personally leaning about 80-20 towards Duke and therefore was expecting people to lean that way.

For those who have answered: How much of your leaning toward Penn State is risk mitigation from the automatic ortho match?

I may be a bit presumptuous, (or have been getting a lot of bias information from ortho surgeons at Duke I have connections with who assure me they can help me do what I need to do to match into ortho) but I am decently confident I will be able to match into an ortho residency if I went to Duke, and potentially have some great choices.

Most of me WANTS to go to Penn State because it would be short and stress free (although the cost would be a stresser for me)

But most of me thinks I SHOULD go to Duke and have to work really hard and endure some stress as far as Duke may position me for the best career opportunities down the road. (with lower cost being a big source of less stress).

Any further comments or thoughts or elaborations on leanings towards Penn State.

Again, THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

I definitely get where you are coming from, I’m facing a similar situation! While duke is a great school and you could definitely match ortho from there, ortho is a highly prestigious specialty that is hard to match into. Because of that, the ranking of the program I think has less to do with your success, rather than if you were matching into IM or FM, where the ranking of the program plays a larger role. You are going to be successful wherever you match ortho. Medical school is stressful, so doing anything that makes your life easier is definitely the way to go!

I think, in the end, you will be happier going where you want to go, not going where you think you should go. Also, you would be paying one less year of tuition and living while going to Penn State. If you go to Duke, there is no guarantee you can go back to IL for residency.

 

[9blade]

I look at it this way, if you just want to practice ortho in your town 6am to 5pm and no big need for academia, I would go Penn State bc you're guaranteed a spot in ortho and you don't have to stress and also, you get to make real ortho salary money a year earlier or get to your fellowship a year earlier. I would choose Duke if you think you may want to do some academia in the future. I have no doubt that you could match ortho coming from Duke, but if you want to end up at the same town practicing 6am to 5pm, I would choose Penn State.

Edit: based on your posts in other threads, you're still young, single, and have no family. So going to Duke would still be a good decision. I assume Durham, NC is a better dating scene than Hershey, PA. Honestly can't go wrong either way.

 

[Frogger27]

There is no guarantee you’ll match ortho if you go to duke, even some of the top students in the country go unmatched every year. If you have a guaranteed opportunity to become an orthopaedic surgeon, you take it and don’t look back

 

[camnewton1]

As far as career goals: I'm engineering undergrad and have worked for a startup medical device company the last three years and absolutely loved it. I want be an orthopedic surgeon first and foremost and have that be the primary thing I dedicate my life to. But I also want to get my MBA eventually and either start my own company with devices I invent or do consulting/be on medical advisory boards for start-ups or device companies. I know two CEOs of two of the largest medtech/med device incubator companies in the Research Triangle area who want to mentor me in that pursuit. Idk how much where I go to med school will impact that career route, but I'm guessing there would be a slight edge to Duke. I definitely don't want to be in academia. Anyone know if Duke would make a difference with those career goals?

Financially, it's hard to gauge Duke Vs Penn State. Duke would be cheaper upfront and I may be able to make it through without student loans (I have some outside scholarships that are good for any where I go to). But long term I would have one year more of a surgeon's salary in my total working life if I went to Penn State which should outweigh the loans I'd take out.

The wild card is the MBA to some degree. I am really 50/50 on doing it as part of a 5 year or doing it after residency. I have had four surgeons tell me to do it during med school and four surgeons tell me to wait lol. But if I did it during medical school at Duke, I would have the option to do it at UNC on a full tuition grant from someone I know. So that would be another financial factor that at Penn State I'd be paying full MBA tuition at some point in my post residency career.

You bring up some interesting points here. Let's say you went to Duke, how much would you really be engaging with your medtech connections? Is it something you see yourself seriously pursuing as a medical student? Or more of a passive thing like a couple hours here and there? If this is something you seriously see yourself doing, then might be worth going to Duke. Duke definitely has more of "Medicine + " (ie more than clinical medicine ) going on vs. being a 3 year MD student at Penn State. Med school might also be an ideal time to get exposure to this realm vs. later on as a busy attending, but I'd suggest reaching out to people in this area who might have a better answer.

I would say don't worry too much about financial stuff here. At Duke, you'd be paying virtually nothing, while at Penn State you save a year of med school while guaranteeing ortho residency, so basically money is not a big consideration I think.

One thing I wanted to add personally, I'm a current medical student at a T20 school, and I want to stress that you should not take matching into ortho lightly at all. Even at schools like the one I go to, having an ortho applicant match prelim only is something that happens more frequently than one would think.

 

[proudofmykids]

Cost wise, how do you compare total COA of 3 years Penn State vs the 4 years at Duke.
Then realize you have one extra year of Orthopedic salary by going to Penn State. To help pay any higher costs there. I’d say any net difference of premium to go to Duke is under $80k-$100k is worth it. Look at the match lists, the difference will really open your eyes!
Duke will be major enhancement to your efforts to relocate for residency back to Chicago or anywhere else you may want.
Also, as far as Top 10 Ortho Residencies, Duke is #6, and as far as Illinois, Rush is #9.
Top 10 orthopedic surgery residency programs from Doximity — Hospital for Special Surgery No. 1

 

[lonely_cytochrome]

I would go to Penn State. I've read your comments, and for what you want to do, it really doesn't matter where you go. Seriously, if/when in 15 years you have your own company or a position of leadership at some company, no one is going to care where you went to school. They will, however, care about what you have done. Going to Penn State gives you 1 whole year extra to beef up your resume and get actual work experiences done, which will be invaluable for your career goals. Only reason to go to Duke is if you are interested in academia, otherwise absolutely 100% Penn state.

 

[curbsideconsult]

None of your career goals indicate that you need to go to a higher ranked school. Take the guaranteed ortho spot + extra year of attending salary and run with it. You don't need an MBA for what you want to do, but if you're hungry for it, negotiate it into your contract and have your employer pay for it when you become an attending.

 

[Rogue42]

For those who have answered: How much of your leaning toward Penn State is risk mitigation from the automatic ortho match?

I may be a bit presumptuous, (or have been getting a lot of bias information from ortho surgeons at Duke I have connections with who assure me they can help me do what I need to do to match into ortho) but I am decently confident I will be able to match into an ortho residency if I went to Duke, and potentially have some great choices.

Medical school is hard. Even the people who end up at Harvard do not all make high enough board scores to match Ortho if they want. You may be confident now, but when you're 8 lectures deep into cardio/pulm physiology of a 16 lecture test tomorrow and haven't started on the anatomy test that is a day later, you might not be so sure you can make it.

Penn State is still a big time, university affiliated medical school with a university affiliated ortho program. That is about as good as it gets, and as good as you need. Everything else that follows that in your career is largely on you.

There is no guarantee you’ll match ortho if you go to duke, even some of the top students in the country go unmatched every year. If you have a guaranteed opportunity to become an orthopaedic surgeon, you take it and don’t look back

Exactly what frogger said here. It is IMPERATIVE that you actually understand this.

Last thoughts;
Very rarely is anything guaranteed or 100% in medicine, and when those things happen, you take it. Every. Single. Time.

Second, to do medical school in 3 years of tuition AND to end residency 1 year sooner (4 yrs med school 5 yrs residency for 9 years education, and you will be done in 8) is going to save you a crap ton more money than you realize. I just did the math, and Duke will cost you about 100k less, but you'll be an attending 1 year sooner if you go to Penn St. with a salary at +450k, so you still are better off at Penn St. when you look at a cost analysis.

Duke is big, but your future and your goals are bigger. You have to decide if you really want to risk that by going to Duke.

 

[m1redsox]

Guaranteed Ortho? Sounds awesome, and I think med student you will thank you for not having to deal with all the stress. It sounds like the only pros for Duke are prestige and potentially spending another year on an MBA. I don’t think much of the Duke scholarship because the Penn State track is shorter and you’ll make your $400k ortho salary sooner. Go to Penn State.

 

[Frogger27]

That you everyone for you're advice, and I really value your input.

I have ultimately decided I will go to Duke. That was the unanimous opinion of the six surgeons I spoke with today. I have to go with the current surgeons and residency directors advice. I was frankly surprised they were in unanimous and very strong agreement especially after most people on here leaning strongly Penn State.

Some quotes from them:

Former orthopedic surgery resident at Penn State: "100% go to Duke and don't look back"

Orthopedic surgeon/department chief/fellowship director/etc: "the spot at Duke med school is a better opportunity than finishing at Penn State for your long term career goals."

Orthopedic surgeon who did residency at Duke: "So obvious I didn’t even want to be redundant and say it but go to Duke."

Surgeon who went to Duke medical school: "If you go to Duke, trust me when I tell this to you, you are going to have your choice of residency"

Congrats on your decision.

As a third year currently gearing up for the orthopaedic match, I respectively disagree with their opinion. Maybe coming from their end, where they are on the other side of this, they can say things like “you’ll definitely match ortho, etc etc”. I want to reiterate that there is no such thing as guaranteed matching orthopaedics. I have seen people with 260 board scores, AOA, loads of research, non-sociopaths go unmatched in ortho. It is a very real possibility. They say going to duke will help you reach your goals- and yes you have many of them. But if you’re goal is to become an orthopaedic surgeon, you should go to Penn state and not look back. All the rest of your goals you can achieve by matching at an awesome fellowship and setting yourself up from there.

Plus, you’re losing a minimum of 500k by going to duke.

If someone gave me the opportunity to go to Med school in the Caribbean with no AC but a guaranteed ortho match I would take it in a heartbeat. I guess it depends on what you’re priorities for your future career are

You seem like an incredibly accomplished student and I am sure it will all works out for you in the end- but I just wanted to emphasis the opportunity you are turning down and how that may affect your future goals.


Sincerely,
A Soon-to-be M4 applying to ortho this year

 

[Skittsie13]

I agree with you that they are probably overconfident and biased by the fact that they themselves were able to match. I am by no means as confident as they are lol! But they also have decades of experience between them helping medical students do research and match successfully into ortho, or being residency directors themselves; so i'm going to be hesitant to tell them they are wrong.

But it also seems like people are slightly over exaggerating the odds of not matching into ortho. Last numbers I've looked at were 74% of U.S. Seniors successfully matched into ortho residency. Compared to the percent of people who successfully get into at least a single medical school (it's like 41% right) that is a huge number! The way people talk about it feels like I'm saying I think I have a decent shot of getting accepted to Harvard medical school with its sub 4% acceptance rate.

74% is a very low match rate, especially with the self-selection that already happens when deciding to apply to orthopedic surgery. Consider that something like 95% of US MD seniors match. The stakes are way higher when it comes to the residency match than applying to medical school. This is an absolutely terrible comparsion to make.

 

[9blade]

We all ave different priorities and people should respect that. Duke is almost free for you and you're still young. I can respect the decision. You worked hard to get into Duke, I'm sure you will work just as hard at Duke to match. Congrats on your decision.

 

[Yhwach]

IMO Duke at least provides risk management in case you hate ortho. You would still have opportunities to match whatever if you work hard and pivot.

Getting in the Penn State program they might make it hard for you to pivot if you have a mid-clerkship crisis and don't want to do ortho (on the small chance).

 

[curbsideconsult]

I have ultimately decided I will go to Duke.

Congratulations on your decision! I was looking at their current intern class and it looks like no one from Duke med matched their for residency despite 7 people in c/o 2019 matching into ortho. Did no one from Duke want to stay home for ortho?

Maybe my opinion will change once I'm going through it, but 74% of anything is high to me.

It will. Right now it seems like a 74% match rate is high, but you really don't want to be one of the few people in your class who has to SOAP. It's absolutely devastating and it's something that people quite literally lose their minds over.

If not matching into the specialty you want completely crushes your dreams, I think your reasons for wanting to become a doctor in the first place may be too narrow to begin with.

This is itself a narrow viewpoint. Not matching into the specialty of your dreams doesn't apply only to the conventionally competitive/cushy ones. There are people who dream of psych or other less-competitive-than-ortho residency because that's the only part of medicine they were ever passionate about and built their entire med school career around who are heart-broken because they didn't match. Does their medical career end? No, but it's a bit flippant to completely disregard their feeling crushed when they don't match into the one specialty they felt they really connected with.

 

[9blade]

IMO Duke at least provides risk management in case you hate ortho. You would still have opportunities to match whatever if you work hard and pivot.

Getting in the Penn State program they might make it hard for you to pivot if you have a mid-clerkship crisis and don't want to do ortho (on the small chance).

that's a good point. You could end up on IR/Urology rotation and end up loving it.

@hopefulFutureDoctor2020 doesn't Duke also have an accelerated program for people who want to do ortho? I have a friend who is a 3rd year there and she mentioned it to me once. If it's still there, you can apply for it.

 

[Frogger27]

I agree with you that they are probably overconfident and biased by the fact that they themselves were able to match. I am by no means as confident as they are lol! But they also have decades of experience between them helping medical students do research and match successfully into ortho, or being residency directors themselves; so i'm going to be hesitant to tell them they are wrong.

But it also seems like people are slightly over exaggerating the odds of not matching into ortho. Last numbers I've looked at were 74% of U.S. Seniors successfully matched into ortho residency. Compared to the percent of people who successfully get into at least a single medical school (it's like 41% right) that is a huge number! The way people talk about it feels like I'm saying I think I have a decent shot of getting accepted to Harvard medical school with its sub 4% acceptance rate.

A 26% chance of being an unemployed, non-orthopaedic surgeon out of only top students who apply is incredibly bad odds. Self selection my friend

 

[Frogger27]

IMO Duke at least provides risk management in case you hate ortho. You would still have opportunities to match whatever if you work hard and pivot.

Getting in the Penn State program they might make it hard for you to pivot if you have a mid-clerkship crisis and don't want to do ortho (on the small chance).

I agree with this, but OP says 110% they are doing ortho so I am not considering this in my opinion.

 

[9blade]

You can apply to the accelerated MD ortho program at Duke your second year. Here is the pamphlet I found for it. I assume this program is still happening. No guarantee you will get in, but at least you still have a chance to graduate in 3 years.

https://med.nyu.edu/education/md-degree/sites/default/files/campp-duke-university-school-of-medicine.pdf

 

[DNC127]

People REALLY hated on the Penn State ortho residency this year. As someone who just matched ortho I think you made the right choice.

 

[Rogue42]

You do not have to respond, as a lot of others have already said; but...

You asked 3 people who work at or went to Duke; that in itself is not giving you a true representation of what you need to know.

Second, 74% match rate is low. It is not a "74% of the people who tried got in" like you stated. It is a "74% of people who survived four years unscathed with a top board score matched." The people competing for ortho are the people who sit in the top 10% academically in their own classes AND have a board score in the top 15% of ALL medical school applicants. Basically a 74% match rate for ortho is really saying that only 74% of the top 1% of ALL medical school students matched ortho.

Good luck on your quest, young grasshopper!

 

[DNC127]

All told I have asked 4 people who work at or went to Duke. 2 people who went to Penn State for ortho residency. And two people who went to or work at UNC.

I have decided someone needs to do a study on relative perception of the difficulty of matching in residency. Because all 7 doctors I spoke to were wayyyy more confident than I expected thinking that I would have not just have no problem matching into ortho residency, but think I'd be selling myself short to go to residency at Penn State.

And most people on this thread (which I have no clue what their demographics are but I will assume that they have mostly not yet matched into residencies) seem to think it is extremely low odds to get into ortho and a miracle when it happens.

But I feel like there is a bias of the people who have been there and gone through it thinking it is easy because them and their colleagues did it. Especially given that one doctor I talked to mentioned a couple "knuckleheads" they mentored who are definitely "knuckleheads" but had no problem matching into ortho.

And then there is a bias of the people who have not yet gone through it perceiving something they have not yet achieved as harder than it truly is.

I can truthfully say that I have noticed this bias with myself. A year ago I never thought I would be having remotely near the success I have had this application cycle. And now when I look back on it, I can feel that there is this natural inclination to look back and be like "yeah that was no problem, idk how I ever thought I might not get in anywhere." The truth is definitely somewhere in between the two. I was definitely less confident than I should have been going into this, and I definitely was also incredibly fortunate and lucky to be in the position I am in which isn't something anyone could have predicted with any level of certainty a year ago.

I think the truth is also somewhere in between the two views on matching to ortho residency.

You are vastly underestimating how difficulty getting ortho is, and so are the people you talked to (people tend to do this after they have “made it”. Going to Duke will help though. Lots of people fall off however and never get talked about.

You sound like someone who doesn’t want to settle, so I think duke is the best choice. And Penn State was heavily hated on by applicants, but it is the SAFE choice. BUT, I would say your chances of ending up in ortho are probably 50/50 or less from Duke, whereas penn state is 100%. You have to survive the mental and emotional grind to even have the opportunity to apply ortho for your 3/4 chance of matching. It is much more mentally and emotionally draining than getting into medical school . There is a HUGE chance you don’t even end up applying ortho if you go to Duke. My class is 115 people, TWENTY of which wanted ortho to start and said they would do ANYTHING to get in. Only 3 applied. Take that into consideration. But, if it were me I know I would gamble on myself and go to Duke.

Just make sure you do so with a clear head and never look back.

 

[TLITTLE]

It seems like all along your heart was set on Duke and you were mainly on here looking for support in that decision. I don't think most people on here are saying that it is "extremely low odds to get into ortho and a miracle when it happens", but it is definitely not a sure thing like the doctors you spoke to are implying. With that said, if you work hard enough then you'll definitely have a good shot of matching into ortho going to Duke but it's not guaranteed like it would be at Penn State. And so that is where the extra added (and avoidable) stress comes in if you choose Duke.

Obviously Duke is more prestigious than Penn State, but it's not like Penn State is some scrub of an institution. So I'm not sure if you would be selling yourself short by choosing Penn State because in the end, does it actually matter that much what the name of your medical school is when you're an attending orthopedic surgeon? I personally don't think it would make that much of a difference at all, especially if you're not planning on going into academia.

In the end, you have to do what you feel is best for yourself. Seems like you're pretty confident in yourself and you'll definitely be happier at Duke, so go to that school and kick some ass.

 

[Klyx]

Also surprised so many people recommended Penn State. If you're driven enough and strong enough of a medical school applicant to secure a guaranteed ortho spot, it is very unlikely that you will have to SOAP when you apply for residency. Doubly so as someone who has already established a network of 7+ academic orthopods in the area. Yes, there are the few students at top tier institutions who fail to match into competitive specialties, but your odds of matching as an applicant from Duke are way higher than 74% or w/e the national average is. Congrats on your great choices and for reaching a decision! Good luck to you going forward.

 

[Frogger27]

Just one more add- if your connections with the duke orthopods is as solid as you say. Leverage the crap out of these starting day 1. You’ll be P/F for step 1, so I would focus on making strong connections via pumping out a ton of research, trying to be AOA (I’m not sure how duke does class rank, if at all, but if they do for pre clinicals try to crush it).

A strong mentor base in ortho is incredibly important and these people advocating for you to go to duke, although I disagree from a practical standpoint, says something about what they think about you. So bust your butt the next 4 years and let them take care of the rest

 

[rdyotz]

I got tired of reading...so I may be repeating things. Doing an MBA at Duke means an extra (well, 2 extra years total) year of no pay vs an extra year of attending pay.... Which I think would likely cover an MBA tuition.