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Penn vs. CCLCM
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congratulations on the great choices! TBQH as an MSTP this is a bit outside of my wheelhouse and it seems like a super tough decision based on what you've described. As someone else who was accepted to Penn, where are people getting this cutthroat culture thing? Isn't Penn P/F? or are ppl fighting for AOA?
It has a reputation for being cutthroat because it used to be H/P/F, but they changed that to P/F, so I doubt it will be as cutthroat as it was before (although I do believe there is still an internal ranking).
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Current Penn student. I'm not sure where the "cutthroat" reputation comes from because that hasn't been my experience at all, and I'm in a class that had H/P/F preclinical. In my experience, people were super collaborative, no one ever talked about grades, and my class was super tight before we scattered into clerkships.
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Hey! I might be your classmate at CCLCM! You can always wait until after second look to decide, that way you can get a sense of the type of people that might come! I am almost 100% on CCLCM at this point but waiting until after second look to commit for the same reason. As an Ohio native we tend to be pretty welcoming and I’m sure you will be able to make a home here! I interviewed at UPenn as well and it’s a wonderful program that I also really enjoyed, you can’t really go wrong!
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penn
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Penn. (assuming financials work out for you)
Good to be close to family; though must set limits.
Large class size - much more likely to find "your group"
Ability to collaborate with Law, business, policy, graduate programs and faculty.
Better if you want to end up in Philly to go to med school in Philly. You will be known to residency PD's and vice versa within city.
Good to be close to family; though must set limits.
Large class size - much more likely to find "your group"
Ability to collaborate with Law, business, policy, graduate programs and faculty.
Better if you want to end up in Philly to go to med school in Philly. You will be known to residency PD's and vice versa within city.
jessicajonesharvard
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CCLCM is not even close to UPenn in terms of academic prestige. If you get anything above 50% tuition scholarship, go there!
That’s not true.
OP, contingent on getting that 80% scholarship to Penn, I would pick Penn since you are from Philly. Otherwise, if the aid from Penn is not good (which is doubtful, they’re typically very generous with aid), then I would go to CCLCM.
jessicajonesharvard
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How’s that not true? UPenn is a ~T5 school among Harvard Stan Hopkins and UCSF. CCLCM students get a MD from case western which is a ~T30 school. They are clearly not at the same level in academia.
CCLCM is arguably the most well-known quasi-physician-scientist program (read: not MD/PhD) in the country. If your goal is to be an academic physician, you're a fit for CCLCM's mission. The degree comes from Case Western, but your clinical training and research will be done at Cleveland Clinic, the #2 hospital in the country (above Hopkins, MGH, etc.). No one will look down on a CCLCM student when compared to a Penn student, especially in academia. Just look at the 2018 match list: CCLCM Class of 2018 Match Results
jessicajonesharvard
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CCLCM will never be a T5 school. I'm sorry.
Maybe not according to USNWR. But CCLCM’s match list and the opportunities it provides to its students will always rival the T5. That matters more than some list you can show off to family and friends.
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You can go ahead and have fun at UCSF or Columbia and then carry that "T5-swagger" moving forward. For many of us, we know and appreciate that CCLCM is an excellent program to train in to become a physician-investigator. Arguably, having a smaller program will give you more guidance and mentorship, which is one of the most important aspects in becoming a scientist.
jessicajonesharvard
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Haha thanks. I’m not saying CCLCM is a bad school. I’m arguing that UPenn is objectively a better school with more academic prestige and research funding!
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Congratulations on the fantastic choices OP. You honestly can't go wrong either way. Any notion that Penn is an objectively better school is laughable, and I would encourage you to disregard any advice from people who try to make that argument. CCLCM is the medical school of the #2 hospital in the country and arguably the world (yes, above the Hospital of UPenn). If you believe it would be better fit for you than Penn, and your only reservation is prestige/reputation, attend CCLCM and never look back. Admittedly, I am biased in the sense that I did have a chance to attend CCLCM last year, but I ultimately matriculated elsewhere (not for reputation/prestige reasons).
I believe a huge advantage of CCLCM over Penn is the relaxed culture. CCLCM doesn't have grades, rankings, or exams of any kind throughout all five years -- including the clinical year. Despite this, their match lists have been exceptional (similar calibre to any so-called top-10 school). Speaking as a first-year medical student, I'll say don't underestimate the importance of quality-of-life. Not having to compete with your classmates or generally stress about rankings/exams is a blessing -- one that Penn certainly can't compete with.
On the other hand, if you aren't a fan of mandatory classes, a small class size, or a required research year, go to Penn no question. This also applies if you really don't see yourself being happy in Cleveland at all. I also think Penn is a better option if you are specifically interested in any type of basic science research, as this is not Cleveland Clinic's strongest area (their focus is clinical after all).
In terms of Step scores, these have nothing to do with your school of choice. If you are capable of receiving acceptances from Penn and CCLCM, you are capable of scoring well on Step regardless of which school you attend.
I believe a huge advantage of CCLCM over Penn is the relaxed culture. CCLCM doesn't have grades, rankings, or exams of any kind throughout all five years -- including the clinical year. Despite this, their match lists have been exceptional (similar calibre to any so-called top-10 school). Speaking as a first-year medical student, I'll say don't underestimate the importance of quality-of-life. Not having to compete with your classmates or generally stress about rankings/exams is a blessing -- one that Penn certainly can't compete with.
On the other hand, if you aren't a fan of mandatory classes, a small class size, or a required research year, go to Penn no question. This also applies if you really don't see yourself being happy in Cleveland at all. I also think Penn is a better option if you are specifically interested in any type of basic science research, as this is not Cleveland Clinic's strongest area (their focus is clinical after all).
In terms of Step scores, these have nothing to do with your school of choice. If you are capable of receiving acceptances from Penn and CCLCM, you are capable of scoring well on Step regardless of which school you attend.
jessicajonesharvard
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Program Directors' ranking
Upenn 2nd
Case (which includes CCLCM) 33rd.
You will be successful in either school but Upenn has an advantage if you want to pursue a career in academic medicine.
Also, Philly > Cleveland
Upenn 2nd
Case (which includes CCLCM) 33rd.
You will be successful in either school but Upenn has an advantage if you want to pursue a career in academic medicine.
Also, Philly > Cleveland
Hahaha, you just won't quit, will you? If it wasn't clear from before, CCLCM =/= Case Western (and their match lists show that). To say otherwise is almost like saying HST kids get the same education as NP kids at Harvard, or Drew kids get the same education as the regular MD kids at UCLA (hint: they don't).Program Directors' ranking
Upenn 2nd
Case (which includes CCLCM) 33rd.
You will be successful in either school but Upenn has an advantage if you want to pursue a career in academic medicine.
Also, Philly > Cleveland
Also, those PD rankings are severely flawed (as are most things that come from USNWR). You seem to be really obsessed with these rankings. OP, I assure you, for a career in academic medicine, Penn will not provide you with a significant advantage over CCLCM, the program that's literally designed to produce academic physician investigators. Choose based on price, location, class size, time to complete your degree, etc. rather than based on the opinion of someone that has "Harvard" in their username.
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lol, this thread is ridiculous. CCLCM is a dope program and easily on the level of other T5 schools. Program directors probably love it when they see one of the 32 CCLCM grads is applying to their program.
I have been really appreciating the feedback so far. I’m going to CCLCM’s second look rather than Penn’s (on the same day) because I can get to Penn on a much easier whim with family nearby. Might make my own Preview day if Penn’s admissions office would allow it. You all have given me a lot to think about! Thank you so far!
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As a person who also got accepted to Penn — and who is incredibly stoked about it — I’d like to chime in and say that CCLCM also seems like a phenomenal oppprtunity.
In terms of matching and academic clout, it is hard for me to believe that one program would significantly outperform the other. These are both great schools, associated with excellent hospitals, and let’s not forget that CCLCM’s program is specifically designed to get you into research.
At Penn, you CAN do a ton of research, and you can definitely get set up to do that for your career. At CCLCM, you’re pretty much guaranteed that through the program. Given the small class size, you’re also essentially guaranteed a lot of personal attention and mentorship, which I’m sure would translate to excellent letters of reccomendation when the time comes (not to mention, you could likely put together a more robust research project).
In any case, I don’t think you should fixate on the rankings as some other people have done in this thread. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes ranking can be a relevant difference— in this case, I don’t think it is.
My 5 cents: assuming you get a good scholarship from Penn, consider where you’ll be happiest and choose that way. 4-5 years is an important chunk of your life.
P.s. and in terms of layman prestige?? Let’s not forget the contingent of people that think Penn State and UPenn are the same thing. Definitely don’t choose schools based on what the guy sitting next to you in the Uber thinks
In terms of matching and academic clout, it is hard for me to believe that one program would significantly outperform the other. These are both great schools, associated with excellent hospitals, and let’s not forget that CCLCM’s program is specifically designed to get you into research.
At Penn, you CAN do a ton of research, and you can definitely get set up to do that for your career. At CCLCM, you’re pretty much guaranteed that through the program. Given the small class size, you’re also essentially guaranteed a lot of personal attention and mentorship, which I’m sure would translate to excellent letters of reccomendation when the time comes (not to mention, you could likely put together a more robust research project).
In any case, I don’t think you should fixate on the rankings as some other people have done in this thread. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes ranking can be a relevant difference— in this case, I don’t think it is.
My 5 cents: assuming you get a good scholarship from Penn, consider where you’ll be happiest and choose that way. 4-5 years is an important chunk of your life.
P.s. and in terms of layman prestige?? Let’s not forget the contingent of people that think Penn State and UPenn are the same thing. Definitely don’t choose schools based on what the guy sitting next to you in the Uber thinks
Based on your post, it sounds like you would be happier at Penn (you mention its your dream school, in a city you love, with friends/family nearby). So I would go with Penn. Also if layman’s prestige/prestige outside medicine matters to you, then it matters to you and that’s fine.
That being said, some of the earlier posts on this thread in favor of penn are misleading: both schools match ridiculously well, both have an equivalent reputation in medicine and you should focus on where you would be happiest. Keep in mind the entirely ungraded system at CCLM will likely do wonders for your happiness and you’ll match just as well coming out if there as you would from Penn. Id challenge some of the posters above belittling CCLM to look at their match list, it is just unbelievable.
That being said, some of the earlier posts on this thread in favor of penn are misleading: both schools match ridiculously well, both have an equivalent reputation in medicine and you should focus on where you would be happiest. Keep in mind the entirely ungraded system at CCLM will likely do wonders for your happiness and you’ll match just as well coming out if there as you would from Penn. Id challenge some of the posters above belittling CCLM to look at their match list, it is just unbelievable.
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Accepted at Penn MSTP, didn't apply to CCLCM or Case.
Argument about making this decision because of prestige is moot IMO. Hate to be "this guy" but the kind of research most med students will benefit from / be involved in does not depend on deep pools of NIH $$$, but privileged access to top-flight academic hospitals seeing the most complex, sickest, rarest patients in a well-populated catchment area. If you want to be a basic scientist (get a PhD...), then ya we need to start talking about institutional resources, department reputation, etc. The two are correlated but not necessarily interchangeable. The fact that Penn has significantly more NIH $$$ does not change the fact that Cleveland Clinic is one of the best hospitals in this country, and as much a "brand-name" in academic medicine as Penn's HUP or CHOP given that the match lists at both schools have a large number of graduates continuing onto residency at major academic centers. Considering that CCLCM heavily selects for people wanting to do clinical and translational research over basic science, I think Penn and CC are equivalent options in this respect for the kind of student who is likely to be admitted to both.
However, finances, fit, happiness, location all still matter. I think its a very difficult decision. Penn is dope. Didn't see CC. So I cant really weigh in very much here but just wanted to say that you should consider these factors over prestige, research rank, etc. as others have said.
Argument about making this decision because of prestige is moot IMO. Hate to be "this guy" but the kind of research most med students will benefit from / be involved in does not depend on deep pools of NIH $$$, but privileged access to top-flight academic hospitals seeing the most complex, sickest, rarest patients in a well-populated catchment area. If you want to be a basic scientist (get a PhD...), then ya we need to start talking about institutional resources, department reputation, etc. The two are correlated but not necessarily interchangeable. The fact that Penn has significantly more NIH $$$ does not change the fact that Cleveland Clinic is one of the best hospitals in this country, and as much a "brand-name" in academic medicine as Penn's HUP or CHOP given that the match lists at both schools have a large number of graduates continuing onto residency at major academic centers. Considering that CCLCM heavily selects for people wanting to do clinical and translational research over basic science, I think Penn and CC are equivalent options in this respect for the kind of student who is likely to be admitted to both.
However, finances, fit, happiness, location all still matter. I think its a very difficult decision. Penn is dope. Didn't see CC. So I cant really weigh in very much here but just wanted to say that you should consider these factors over prestige, research rank, etc. as others have said.
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