Petition to halt accreditation of new schools

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owlegrad

owlegrad

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Sign the Petition

Anyone know if something like this is even possible/legal?
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owlegrad said:
Sign the Petition

Anyone know if something like this is even possible/legal?
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I don’t know, but they not only need to stop opening up new schools, they need to shut down existing schools. The problem isn’t that the number of pharmacy school graduates is expanding from 15,000 to 16,000 for 5,000 jobs, but rather that there currently exists 15,000 graduates for 5,000 jobs TODAY.
 
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The only way would be to regulate how medicine regulates itself...require PGY1 for all pharmacist positions and cap the amount of spots based on CMS funding, tying med school spots to the PGY1 spots. I don't think this is a great idea.
 
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Pharm.C. said:
The ideal system:
-Get rid of a year of pharmacy school. There's plenty of useless information for us to get away with just 5. I don't need to memorize the structure of every drug and the muscles/bones of the body twice. Teach me about the medications, how to counsel, provide patient care, and follow guidelines.
-Also, replace P4 year with mandatory paid PGY1. Why do we do the same thing again? Paying for it the first time and a reduced salary the second time? There are enough P4 rotations for all these students because it's free labor. PGY1 spots are limited because they're paid. I'm sure Walgreens and CVS would love to open more residency positions (RPh at 50% pay).

1-year undergrad, P1, P2, P3, mandatory PGY1

Out in 5 years with plenty of jobs. Why doesn't this happen? Because there's money to be made by opening more pharmacy schools and charging for "clinical rotations" and as many years of school as possible. This would be ideal to shoot for, but good luck to us.

Schools wouldn't open because they know there wouldn't be spots for their students. Honestly, it's sad, but there are no jobs for all these graduates anyway. Popping a bubble early is always better than popping it later. At least students would be able to see how limited the job market really is before the fact and compete for spots.
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I'm not sure how well this would work though. The 3-year program would have to be year-round without breaks. Even then, besides UOP which actually has a decent 3-year program, the other 3-year students I've worked with have not been that great.
 
bacillus1 said:
I'm not sure how well this would work though. The 3-year program would have to be year-round without breaks. Even then, besides UOP which actually has a decent 3-year program, the other 3-year students I've worked with have not been that great.
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I did an international rotation in Australia and one of the things we looked at was the education differences between our systems. They have 4 years of classes followed by an intern year which isn't all that different from a year of residency.

My preceptors said that the American students were more confident and presented better than their Australian counterparts but as far as I could tell, clinical knowledge seemed pretty much equal. Honestly I didn't think there was much of a difference in our presentations either.

I had reservations about our system before the rotation but my experience there really made me question how much potentially unnecessary time we spend in school.
 
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Pharm.C. said:
50% of what we learn in pre-pharm/pharmacy school isn't relevant. I could learn enough chemistry to be a pharmacist in one semester, not two years. Do you honestly think we spend years learning how to calculate how much the temperature changes in a cup of water when you drop heated metal in it, memorizing organic chemistry reactions, metabolism pathways, etc because they school wants you to be a good pharmacist? No, it's because you can charge more that way. I don't know about you, but 90% of the important information I got in pharmacy school was about a couple years worth of material. I was talking about the ideal situation, not saying that it's going to happen. No one person is at fault and no one does this on purpose. But in the system we currently have this is how things have been allowed to happen.
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50%? more like 85%
 
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Lucinda Maine making over 300k at AACP, school Deans raking in $$$, ASHP,APHA doing the same thing, BOP's bought by big pharma, and ACPE will back down the minute an ambulance chasing attorney makes a claim against one of their "standards". Honestly, I'm ashamed to be part of this hypocrisy.
 
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Schools are backing off of PCAT scores because they were in the in single digit percentile. Also, I've seen applicants with less than 2.0 in core sciences being accepted. Some schools are taking the government money and running right now without any thought about NAPLEX pass rates. I'm worried as a pharmacist and taxpayer that this profession will be extinct for years for new students but maybe that is what the Darwinian plan is.
 
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VA77 said:
Lucinda Maine making over 300k at AACP, school Deans raking in $$$, ASHP,APHA doing the same thing, BOP's bought by big pharma, and ACPE will back down the minute an ambulance chasing attorney makes a claim against one of their "standards". Honestly, I'm ashamed to be part of this hypocrisy.
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That’s why I have zero respect for former APHA presidents who opened Chapman. They clearly could care less about the future of the profession. They have done way more detriment to the profession than the “clinical” and “provider status” that’s they advocated, which helped maybe 10-15 percent of the profession. The new schools that they opened hurt 85-90 percent. I just want to talk **** to any faculty who is associated with a school that opened post 2008.
 
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You guys should see the gems in my old pre-pharm class. Real winners, that bunch. All convinced they will be working in a hospital.
 
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Everyone sign and share, we all should be supporting this no matter if its possible or not----
 
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I don't know if it is legal or not, but even if it is, I doubt the petition will do anything. Pharmacy schools continue to open and expand because there is still a demand of people wanting to enroll in them. And the school is a business that helps generate money for the local government with student loans.

In the same vein, I wish that the country would shut down title loan businesses. Note that these places are usually located in predominantly Spanish speaking areas and areas with poor, less educated people who are more likely to be desperate and not understand the math of taking out a loan with 300% APR.

I suppose an ordinary individual with a bad experience trying to find a pharmacy career could go grassroots and speak at local undergrad colleges about the problems with pharmacy and opportunities other than pharmacy school and try to convince the undergrads into pursuing other opportunities. You'd probably definitely have to focus on OTHER POSITIVE OPPORTUNITIES to convince any educational institution to have you as a speaker. And even then, they may not want you to be doing this as colleges may be getting some sort of monetary incentive from the pharmacy schools, plus it looks good on their statistics to say this percentage of students went on to higher education etc. etc. even if it was a dead end...
 
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Stonybrook University was supposed to open their pharmacy school Fall 2019 but I guess because of budget reasons they cancelled all together. I don't know if it's delayed or completely scrapped

Edit: It sucks for the kids because they accepted a bunch of students and unfortunately they had to find out if other schools would take them into their Pharmacy program.
 
They'll receive the petition. They'll read it. They'll ignore it because they need the money all these schools generate for them.

The End.
 
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owlegrad said:
As expected - ACPE would be violating antitrust laws if they tried to do anything like this. Still it is nice to dream.
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That's the first time dumb ass Lucinda whatever acknowledged there is a problem with pharmacists surplus.
 
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Momus said:
That's the first time dumb ass Lucinda whatever acknowledged there is a problem with pharmacists surplus.
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So the petition has had some effect!

I did like all the stuff about how the main issue is that pharmacists as providers hasn't progressed as quickly as hoped/predicted. I mean I don't think anyone predicted that would actually happen so I would say we are well ahead of schedule on that front.
 
So what should be the next steps? Go to individual pharmacy schools and begin harassing them to cut their class size? If we do a petition like this for each school with 12k signatures each we might make some progress...
 
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AACP will be having its annual convention in Chicago this summer. With this being in ACPEs backyard I believe it would be a good time to make some picket signs.
 
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We gotta stop precepting P4 students. Put a bottleneck in the "on time graduation" standard.
 
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UCSF2021 said:
So what should be the next steps? Go to individual pharmacy schools and begin harassing them to cut their class size? If we do a petition like this for each school with 12k signatures each we might make some progress...
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LoL that's like going to a car dealership and telling them to sell less cars.
 
It's way too late to worry about new schools being accredited, all of the damage was done in the past 15 years. We should be lobbying for more stringent standards so that existing schools that are not graduating competent students are forced to close or cut class sizes.
 
There really isn't anything pharmacists can do in terms of stopping pharmacy schools. We might have more of an impact by effectively lobbying politicians to pass laws that make it more difficult to get or renew a pharmacist license. It wont be easy, and the big corporations will be able to outspend us, so it isnt likely to be effective either. Honestly, it's probably not worthwhile, especially compared to switching professions, which is something we have more control over.
 
Another solution is to lobby for federal student loan reform. Stop the flow of money and you will stop the overflow of new graduates. But again, doing so goes against big corporate interests, so it will be a tough battle.

Or, again, cut your losses and find a different profession. Maybe become a youtuber dedicated to proselytizing your beliefs on the evils of pharmacy schools using funny animations.
 
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"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours". ACPE can hide behind antitrust laws but they have already come up gameplans for too many schools. They just don't want to implement them because they feel we are not at a critical mass.
 
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What are the next steps? We always talk about action on this forum and finally someone is trying to do something about it...…

we have evoked a response--to me that says they are worried
 
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VA77 said:
"When someone tells you it can't be done, it's more a reflection of their limitations, not yours". ACPE can hide behind antitrust laws but they have already come up gameplans for too many schools. They just don't want to implement them because they feel we are not at a critical mass.
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you think they have a way to handle the immense amount of schools but do not want to implement it? is that what you are saying?
 
"These projected opportunities, identified by individuals and entities within and outside of the profession, served as one of the factors driving the growth of new educational institutions."

This made me chuckle as if it wasn't about anything other than the money a pharmacy school brings in
 
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Pharmacists response being submitted today.
 
We need to do what we can to shut down MCW, William Carey, High Point, California Health Sciences, Larkin, Marshall B. Ketchum. I think we should seriously consider build boards near these schools (+ all other predatory schools) to push down their applications and force them to close
 
Most build boards are $750-1000 per month... I think if Change Pharmacy starts fundraising this would be a very successful way to get enrollment cut
 
We should at least force pharmacy schools to report employment survey statistics for graduates, residency match rates, and salaries. That should be within the powers of ACPE
 
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I have heard that there has been a 25% drop in applications nationwide from an insider.... this gravy train is hopefully coming to an end, we just have to keep up the work
 
SevenPharmacyCalls said:
Most build boards are $750-1000 per month... I think if Change Pharmacy starts fundraising this would be a very successful way to get enrollment cut
Click to expand...
That gives me a great idea. I’ll create a petition to “lobby” for the profession, raise funds and pocket the money from desperate pharmacists, pharmacy students and technicians (using a legit-looking website as a front). Easiest scam since Alex Barker.
 
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bacillus1 said:
I'm not sure how well this would work though. The 3-year program would have to be year-round without breaks. Even then, besides UOP which actually has a decent 3-year program, the other 3-year students I've worked with have not been that great.
Click to expand...

It might be due to how the current pharmacy program is designed and taught and not about the length of the program BSPharm is used to be 3-5 year in length and the BSPharm is as competent as a pharmacist as any PharmD.

I used to work for a pharmacist who was BSPharm (he is still working now). He was more knowledgeable than many PharmDs who worked there When I asked him why, he said it might be that pharmacy schools were teaching more "clinical/doctor" stuff than the things a pharmacist needed to know for the job in real life.
 
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Pharm.C. said:
The ideal system:
-Get rid of a year of pharmacy school. There's plenty of useless information for us to get away with just 5. I don't need to memorize the structure of every drug and the muscles/bones of the body twice. Teach me about the medications, how to counsel, provide patient care, and follow guidelines.
-Also, replace P4 year with mandatory paid PGY1. Why do we do the same thing again? Paying for it the first time and a reduced salary the second time? There are enough P4 rotations for all these students because it's free labor. PGY1 spots are limited because they're paid. I'm sure Walgreens and CVS would love to open more residency positions (RPh at 50% pay).

1-year undergrad, P1, P2, P3, mandatory PGY1

Out in 5 years with plenty of jobs. Why doesn't this happen? Because there's money to be made by opening more pharmacy schools and charging for "clinical rotations" and as many years of school as possible. This would be ideal to shoot for, but good luck to us.

Schools wouldn't open because they know there wouldn't be spots for their students. Honestly, it's sad, but there are no jobs for all these graduates anyway. Popping a bubble early is always better than popping it later. At least students would be able to see how limited the job market really is before the fact and compete for spots.
Click to expand...

sounds like "old" BPharm.


Pharm.C. said:
50% of what we learn in pre-pharm/pharmacy school isn't relevant. I could learn enough chemistry to be a pharmacist in one semester, not two years. Do you honestly think we spend years learning how to calculate how much the temperature changes in a cup of water when you drop heated metal in it, memorizing organic chemistry reactions, metabolism pathways, etc because they school wants you to be a good pharmacist? No, it's because you can charge more that way. I don't know about you, but 90% of the important information I got in pharmacy school was about a couple years worth of material. I was talking about the ideal situation, not saying that it's going to happen. No one person is at fault and no one does this on purpose. But in the system we currently have this is how things have been allowed to happen.
Click to expand...

I kindda doubt that nobody did on purpose or nobody is at fault.

who came up with the PharmD mandatory? who came up with forecast/"studies" that pharmacists were going in to be in high demand? who opened schools and collected the money?

I think they are all related/colluded.

I think the best way to help the situation is educating the public about the pharmacy saturation crisis and inviting more current pharmacists to speak out publicly. People are smart, they can see and make decision for themselves. If there is no more coming students, schools have to close down.
 
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SevenPharmacyCalls said:
We need to do what we can to shut down MCW, William Carey, High Point, California Health Sciences, Larkin, Marshall B. Ketchum. I think we should seriously consider build boards near these schools (+ all other predatory schools) to push down their applications and force them to close
Click to expand...


Would you hire a pharmacist trained by any of these schools??? Maybe if it were the chains that took the legal the legal and financial responsibility for med errors there would be a certain natural selection and these schools would disappear (who would hire a pharmacist from a school which has shown statistically a greater probability of creating incompetent and costly professionals; who who go to a school no one hires from)

Maybe....
 
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lyin' Lucy needs to be replaced
Pharmacy is a Scam said:
That gives me a great idea. I’ll create a petition to “lobby” for the profession, raise funds and pocket the money from desperate pharmacists, pharmacy students and technicians (using a legit-looking website as a front). Easiest scam since Alex Barker.
Click to expand...
LOL or APHA
 
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owlegrad said:
As expected - ACPE would be violating antitrust laws if they tried to do anything like this. Still it is nice to dream.
Click to expand...

Didn’t I have an epic, long post about the Sherman Antitrust consequences?

Petition writers should have used the search function. ::yawn::
 
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Hahaha, if you think NAPLEX score is a good predictor of job performance, simply publicize individual pharmacist’s NAPLEX scores for all employers, let them pick. Good pharmacists always have jobs, unemployed pharmacists, don’t blame anyone else. Problem solved!

farm4real said:
Would you hire a pharmacist trained by any of these schools??? Maybe if it were the chains that took the legal the legal and financial responsibility for med errors there would be a certain natural selection and these schools would disappear (who would hire a pharmacist from a school which has shown statistically a greater probability of creating incompetent and costly professionals; who who go to a school no one hires from)

Maybe....
Click to expand...
 
We are all coming at this from the wrong direction. We members of SDN should strike while the iron is hot and open a new school of pharmacy.
 
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BJNCNC said:
We are all coming at this from the wrong direction. We members of SDN should strike while the iron is hot and open a new school of pharmacy.
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very soon schools can advertise that they have great teacher-to-student ratio like 100-to-1 :)
 
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