Ph.D. to M.D what are my chances?

[Osiris70]

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Hello,

I am a non-traditional med school applicant, and I am currently sending out secondary applications now, but I am worried about my chances of realistically of getting in to medical school. My stats are as follows:

Undergrad GPA (Biology major): 2.61 (graduated in 1994)
M.S. in Biotechnology GPA: 3.77 (graduated in 1997)
Ph.D. in Pharmacology GPA: 3.92 (graduated in 2004)
August 2006 MCAT: 37R

In my first year of undergrad I had a GPA of 1.63 (in 1989), and I steadily improved after that. However that was such a long time ago, and I have done alot since then. I have 8 biomedical research publications (many 1st author), and numerous presentations at meetings, etc. I am currently a Fellow in Clinical Pharmacology at the Mayo Clinic and I am working in clinical research full time (this is partly what is driving me towards medical school). My goal is really to go into academic medicine. To practice and do research at the same time.

Do you think I have a pretty good shot at getting in to medical schools? Or will my undergraduate GPA of so long ago still haunt me and keep me from getting in? Will med schools just autmoatically screen out my application because of an undergrad GPA cutoff?

Also many of my pre-requisites are very old (15yrs), and in some of them I received poor grades (1 was a D). Will this also mean that I don't satisfy the pre-req's, or will my Pharmacology Ph.D. counter those deficiencies?

Also I don't have much clinical patient experience, except a volunteering stint in the ER back in the summer of 1995.

Sincerely,

Osiris

P.S. Ironically, I am currently in a fellowship that usually accepts only M.D.’s that have completed residency.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hello,

I am a non-traditional med school applicant, and I am currently sending out secondary applications now, but I am worried about my chances of realistically of getting in to medical school. My stats are as follows:

Undergrad GPA (Biology major): 2.61 (graduated in 1994)
M.S. in Biotechnology GPA: 3.77 (graduated in 1997)
Ph.D. in Pharmacology GPA: 3.92 (graduated in 2004)
August 2006 MCAT: 37R

In my first year of undergrad I had a GPA of 1.63 (in 1989), and I steadily improved after that. However that was such a long time ago, and I have done alot since then. I have 8 biomedical research publications (many 1st author), and numerous presentations at meetings, etc. I am currently a Fellow in Clinical Pharmacology at the Mayo Clinic and I am working in clinical research full time (this is partly what is driving me towards medical school). My goal is really to go into academic medicine. To practice and do research at the same time.

Do you think I have a pretty good shot at getting in to medical schools? Or will my undergraduate GPA of so long ago still haunt me and keep me from getting in? Will med schools just autmoatically screen out my application because of an undergrad GPA cutoff?

Also many of my pre-requisites are very old (15yrs), and in some of them I received poor grades (1 was a D). Will this also mean that I don't satisfy the pre-req's, or will my Pharmacology Ph.D. counter those deficiencies?

Also I don't have much clinical patient experience, except a volunteering stint in the ER back in the summer of 1995.

Sincerely,

Osiris

P.S. Ironically, I am currently in a fellowship that usually accepts only M.D.'s that have completed residency.

You probably want to spend a year or more retaking the prereqs and perhaps some other undergrad level sciences. Med schools unfortunately will focus more on your undergrad record than your graduate. A string of undergrad A's in an informal postbac would help you a lot. During this time, you should get as much clinical exposure as you can -- via volunteering, shadowing etc. clinical research won't be counted as clinical experience, it will be counted as research by most places. Schools generally consider good clinical exposure as a prereq for med school.

You may want to ask this question on the nontrad board, as you will get responses from folks with more similar backgrounds.

 

[DrJen]

It would seem to me that you have done more than enough to make up for the low undergrad GPA. Quite frankly, it would be ridiculous for an adcom to put more weight on your undergrad GPA when you have all of that PhD work under your belt, and it's much more recent. I would think that they would see your more recent accomplishments and that would put the undergrad GPA into perspective. With a 37 MCAT, I doubt an adcom is going to expect you to retake the prereqs. You obviously have the material down, so why waste your time? I'd just work on getting clinical and volunteer experience if I were you. But that's just my $0.02.

 

[Law2Doc]

It would seem to me that you have done more than enough to make up for the low undergrad GPA. Quite frankly, it would be ridiculous for an adcom to put more weight on your undergrad GPA when you have all of that PhD work under your belt, and it's much more recent. I would think that they would see your more recent accomplishments and that would put the undergrad GPA into perspective. With a 37 MCAT, I doubt an adcom is going to expect you to retake the prereqs. You obviously have the material down, so why waste your time? I'd just work on getting clinical and volunteer experience if I were you. But that's just my $0.02.

You would think that, but that isn't actually the experience of a lot of nontrads.

 

[DrJen]

You would think that, but that isn't actually the experience of a lot of nontrads.

That's sad. 🙁

 

[OHMAN0125]

You would think that, but that isn't actually the experience of a lot of nontrads.

Dude, Osiris your golden man. Unless u interview poorly. I figure you have multiple publications as well. DONT retake any prereqs, getting an A in Bio101 is going to look stupid after you've gotten an A in BIO600 (or w/e). Also w/ a 37 MCAT. At most get some more clinical exposure if you don't have much.
Also, I dont know of med schools focusing more on undergrad work. Why do most of them look highly on post-bacc (grad courses mainly) work then? They obviously like to see you excel in harder courses which is obviously what the OP has done with a PhD in pharm.

 

[DrJen]

All I have to say is that if I had a med school, you would be at the top of my acceptance list, Osiris. Now if only my opinion mattered... 🙂

 

[Creightonite]

It sounds like you have a strong background in biochem/biology. How about Physio/anatomy? At this point taking undergrad classes would be taking a step back. If you are applying this year, i would say go ahead. That MCAT is a good indication that you know your stuff. If you applying next year, then you could pad your application a bit by taking undergrad classes. I would suggest talking to an admission officer a Mayo so they could suggest some specific classes for you to take.

 

[p9142]

You probably want to spend a year or more retaking the prereqs and perhaps some other undergrad level sciences.

??????? No way would I retake anything. A 37R MCAT shows that you know your stuff.

I too am a PhD to MD with a 37O MCAT. I have been on 6 interviews so far, and none of my interview questions have been about my undergrad. I think the reason people say that grad is not as important is because most people here have MS degrees, but a PhD is a totally different ballgame. The eight pubs is not something to be scoffed at, and you will definitely bring diversity to your entering class.

 

[Creightonite]

^^^

as a Ph.D. candiate, I totally agree. It also depends on graduate school training. Some schols have you take a lot of classes and in some schools students get done with their class work after their first year. The med schools would prefer if you had quite a bit of class work credits not just research hours.

 

[Law2Doc]

??????? No way would I retake anything. A 37R MCAT shows that you know your stuff.

I too am a PhD to MD with a 37O MCAT. I have been on 6 interviews so far, and none of my interview questions have been about my undergrad even though I graduated from MIT. I am getting my PhD from LSU, and even though it is a third tier school, all the questions have been about my graduate work.

I think the reason people say that grad is not as important is because most people here have MS degrees, but a PhD is a totally different ballgame. The eight pubs is not something to be scoffed at, and you will definitely bring diversity to your entering class.

Do you have a 2.6 undergrad GPA? That's really the issue here, not the MCAT or pubs. There are schools where you won't even get to interviews on the strength of your graduate work. I suggest the OP talk to deans at schools he is interested in. You see quite a few science PhDs in postbac programs based on med school deans' advice.

 

[p9142]

Do you have a 2.6 undergrad GPA? That's really the issue here, not the MCAT or pubs. There are schools where you won't even get to interviews on the strength of your graduate work. I suggest the OP talk to deans at schools he is interested in. You see quite a few science PhDs in postbac programs based on med school deans' advice.

I have a 3.9 undergard GPA, so comparing myself to the OP was not exactly fair, but I really believe that the PhD and MCAT trump the low undergrad GPA. Even if he did take classes next year, there is no way he could get his GPA up to even a 3.0 so I don't see the point. If he was taking the classes just to show he understood chem/phys/bio, then I was stating that he has already proven that with his MCAT.

I guess the prudent thing to do would be to apply now, and take some pre-reqs just in case you don't get in. However, if you apply broadly, I don't see any way that you will not get in.

 

[Law2Doc]

I guess the prudent thing to do would be to apply now, and take some pre-reqs just in case you don't get in. However, if you apply broadly, I don't see any way that you will not get in.

No, the prudent thing would be for OP to talk to a dean or two. You are always benefitted in this process if you get all your ducks in a row first, and then pull the trigger. One shot one kill. The LAST thing you want to do is apply first, and have to remediate later and hope for better luck as a reapplicant.

I think there is no reason the OP won't end up in med school. But I think OP is going to have to jump through more silly hoops than you are thinking.

 

[Ambiptosis]

Unfortunately, Law2Doc seems to be empirically right in this case. Your undergrad GPA is always a focus, regardless of when your last taste of the college life might have been. I think Law2Doc is correct in his analysis; at any rate, you've already sent out secondaries so now it's time to let the cards fall where they may. (Strategically, it might make the most sense to start taking the postbaccs ASAP in case you don't get in this cycle; you want to be sure you can apply again without having to retake the MCAT.)

You should consider speaking with an advisor at your former undergrad, if possible.

 

[Ambiptosis]

No, the prudent thing would be for OP to talk to a dean or two. You are always benefitted in this process if you get all your ducks in a row first, and then pull the trigger. One shot one kill. The LAST thing you want to do is apply first, and have to remediate later and hope for better luck as a reapplicant.

I think there is no reason the OP won't end up in med school. But I think OP is going to have to jump through more silly hoops than you are thinking.

I think the OP has already applied...

 

[Law2Doc]

I think the OP has already applied...

OK, in that case, my only advice would be for the OP to try and get some decent clinical exposure fast and otherwise hope for interviews and run for luck.

 

[Osiris70]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply with advice for my situation, it is appreciated.

I believe taking postbac courses now would be a step backwards, especially since I am now qualified to teach most of them. I do think the clinical experience would be helpfeul, but perhaps this is a bit overblown. Only about 60-80% of matriculants (according to MSAR) to medschools last year had clinical experience. That means that 20-40% of people were accepted w/o any clinical experience whatsoever. As many have suggested I will apply broadly and focus on the strengths of the application.

FYI I am doing clinical research in oncology and that is where I plan to practice. In oncology, clinical research is nearly clinical practice, because a large percentage of cancer patients get most of their treatment from clinical trials (that is their only hope). However, I have found that if I want to continue a decent career in Clinical Oncology research I am in dire need of an M.D. In addition to the fact that I would like to be more involved in the treatment of patients who are on the clinical trials that I am involved with.

 

[DrJen]

I just had this awful vision of being the poor traditional pre-med sitting in orgo next to the guy with a PhD in pharmacology. 😱 That's gonna screw up the curve!

 

[anon-y-mouse]

I would try somewhere like Pitt, which loves intelligent non-traditionals and looks beyond aberrant numbers in a lot of cases... from what I've read and talked, you seem to have a good chance at a place like there!

 

[maddscientist]

Osiris-
I was in your situation last year- I have my Ph.D in biochemistry with some nice publications and a combination of a decent MCAT (34R) and low undergrad gpa (3.4) with D's and C's in prereqs. Do not retake any of those classes;they are a waste of your time and money. Some places are very stringent about these requirements (UCSD comes to mind), but others will see past it. I applied everywhere in California and only got interviews at Stanford and USC. Just apply to a wide range of schools and see who bites. You will get in somewhere!

 

[Law2Doc]

Only about 60-80% of matriculants (according to MSAR) to medschools last year had clinical experience. That means that 20-40% of people were accepted w/o any clinical experience whatsoever.

Those statistics don't jibe with what I've seen in reality. I've actually not met a med student who hadn't done some shadowing or volunteering.
Most med schools are going to want to see clinical experience because it's too long and hard a road if you don't know exactly what you are getting into, and schools want to keep their drop out rates at below 3-4%. You need to go down this path with your eyes open -- probably moreso as a career changer.
I would suggest you line something up ASAP so you can cross this off the concern list. There is still time to get some decent exposure before interviews.

 

[Law2Doc]

Osiris-
I was in your situation last year- I have my Ph.D in biochemistry with some nice publications and a combination of a decent MCAT (34R) and low undergrad gpa (3.4)

Like the prior PhD poster, you are not in the same boat as the OP. Lots of schools screen and won't look at an application with a very sub 3.0 undergrad GPA. There are a handful of people on the nontrad board who are doing second bachelors degrees precisely for this reason. Hopefully the OP will hit on a school that gets past this.

 

[p9142]

Like the prior PhD poster, you are not in the same boat as the OP. Lots of schools screen and won't look at an application with a very sub 3.0 undergrad GPA. There are a handful of people on the nontrad board who are doing second bachelors degrees precisely for this reason. Hopefully the OP will hit on a school that gets past this.

That is true, but your advice of re-taking his pre-reqs still doesn't make sense. He is not going to get his GPA above a 3.0 by retaking the classes, and it is doubtful he could do it even if he completed a postbac program.

I think your advice about contacting each of the deans individually makes the most sense. I am certain that they will give him special consideration given all he has accomplished, and if not, he can save the money of sending them secondaries.

 

[Law2Doc]

That is true, but your advice of re-taking his pre-reqs still doesn't make sense.

I'm not saying it makes sense. Yet people I know have been advised to retake prereqs in similar situations (where GPA was low and undergrad science classes were taken over a decade ago), notwithstanding graduate degrees. Lots of things in the process don't make perfect sense.🙂

At this point it is moot, as the OP has apparently already submitted AMCAS.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Your graduate GPA in and of itself will not be viewed, but your contacts, research experience, and life experience will help.

I wouldn't worry about stuff you can't change anymore, but your MCAT will get you in somewhere. I can promise you that. Don't mess around with any more pre-req's. Life is short, get the ball rolling.

 

[Law2Doc]

Life is short, get the ball rolling.

Life is just as long however you spend it. It doesn't (or shouldn't) get rolling by going down one path versus another. Just enjoy the ride either way. It is far better than the alternative.🙂

 

[p9142]

Lots of things in the process don't make perfect sense.

Amen to that. 👍 👍 👍

 

[PHD_2007]

I encourage you to apply. I have gotten lots of interviews based on my grad school record, MCAT, and multiple pubs. Apply, Apply, Apply!!!!! Call the schools that you are interested in attending. Get your name out there!!! 😍 😍 😍

 

[p9142]

I encourage you to apply. I have gotten lots of interviews based on my grad school record, MCAT, and multiple pubs. Apply, Apply, Apply!!!!! Call the schools that you are interested in attending. Get your name out there!!! 😍 😍 😍

Yes I agree, but Law2Doc is correct about some schools screening you out based on your undergrad GPA. Definitely call and speak to a person so you don't get an auto-reject.