PHARMACY JURISDICTIONS - smarter to choose state you graduated from?

[doe_eyed]

Hello,

So I graduated with my PharmD from Northeastern in Massachusetts. However, my hometown (driver's license, address, etc) is a different state - Connecticut. For picking jurisdictions, is it smarter (this is in italics for a reason) to choose MA, in my case, over CT?

Does NABP prefer you to become licensed in the state [college] where you, in essence, learned all of your pharmacy knowledge and law-based pharmacy knowledge? I have been struggling with passing exams for my own state....even after EXTENSIVE studying. I am thinking I should change jurisdictions and kicking myself for possibly doing this all wrong.

I would appreciate any and ALL input on this matter! Thank you so much. Happy Holidays!

doe_eyed

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[MindGeek]

I will offer general advice to first time test takers first...
Make your primary jurisdiction the state that you want to take your first MPJE in. If you are choosing between two with no time crunch and you know that one board of pharmacy is much faster than the other, have that one be responsible for authorizing your NAPLEX and MPJE ATTs. Right out the gate you apply for both at the same time. Fill out your initial RPh app to the BOP as soon as they allow. Apply through NABP the day you get your passing grade on your last APPE to take the NAPLEX and the first state's MPJE. This will speed up the process since the board of pharmacy will have your file and your two test requests in hand the day your school sends verification that you graduated.

Now for advice for you @doe_eyed ...
Make the NAPLEX your primary target. This hurdle needs to be overcome regardless of which state's MPJE you conquer. Once you pass the NAPLEX score transfer like it's going out of style within the 90 day window (I did 8). Then if it looks like one MPJE is truly a dead end switch gears to the other. Fill out another initial RPH by score transfer application to the next state, have your school fill out their stuff, if you put in for score transfer thru NABP the BOP will already have your NAPLEX score, apply to take that MPJE on NABP, BOP should quickly approve your ATT since they literally have everything except for your MPJE score.

Does NABP prefer you to become licensed in the state [college] where you, in essence, learned all of your pharmacy knowledge

The NABP does not prefer anything. In this situation they just send the BOP a notice of your intent to test, BOP responds yes when your file is complete with end date for ATT, NABP sends notification to Pearson, Pearson sends you the ATT to schedule, Pearson sends results to NABP, NABP sends results to BOP. NABP is just the facilitator. The onus is really on the BOP and you.

Have you considered taking an MPJE for a state that is covered by Dr. Cutie or Dr. Strauss? Their review books are extremely helpful (though I prefer Cutie over Strauss).

Dr. Cutie has books for NY, NJ, FL, CT, NAPLEX, & Part 3 (NY).
Dr. Strauss has books for NY, NJ, FL, & PA.

You mentioned being from CT so Dr. Cutie's notes for CT (and NAPLEX?) seem like a slam dunk. Both Dr's include federal coverage with each state. Just keep in mind that if your underlying problem in passing the MPJE is federal law that this will not be resolved by switching states.

It surprised my how many people don't do score transfer. Your score is extremely valuable! Who know's if you'll need to relocate before that state's eligibility to reciprocate kicks in. [Plus NABP's License transfer fee+board reciprocity fee is much more than original RPh by exam fee to BOP+NAPLEX test fee.] Especially since you have difficulty in passing the MPJE, score transfer to states that will use your NAPLEX score for longer:

• NY/NJ = 5 years after NAPLEX test date.
• FL = 3 yrs.
• NC/TX = 2 yrs.
• CT/MA = 1 yr.
• RI = 6 mos.
• PA = not addressed

Some states may have more stringent attempt limits than NABP's 5.

P.S. Your post the other day (before you edited it) had me concerned and wishing SDN had Facebook's suicide detection algorithm. I hope your are feeling much better than last week. Good luck!
P.P.S. I do not recommend you try to seek licensure in NY because of the Part 3 exam.

 

[swatchgirl]

I will offer general advice to first time test takers first...
Make your primary jurisdiction the state that you want to take your first MPJE in. If you are choosing between two with no time crunch and you know that one board of pharmacy is much faster than the other, have that one be responsible for authorizing your NAPLEX and MPJE ATTs. Right out the gate you apply for both at the same time. Fill out your initial RPh app to the BOP as soon as they allow. Apply through NABP the day you get your passing grade on your last APPE to take the NAPLEX and the first state's MPJE. This will speed up the process since the board of pharmacy will have your file and your two test requests in hand the day your school sends verification that you graduated.

Now for advice for you @doe_eyed ...
Make the NAPLEX your primary target. This hurdle needs to be overcome regardless of which state's MPJE you conquer. Once you pass the NAPLEX score transfer like it's going out of style within the 90 day window (I did 8). Then if it looks like one MPJE is truly a dead end switch gears to the other. Fill out another initial RPH by score transfer application to the next state, have your school fill out their stuff, if you put in for score transfer thru NABP the BOP will already have your NAPLEX score, apply to take that MPJE on NABP, BOP should quickly approve your ATT since they literally have everything except for your MPJE score.


The NABP does not prefer anything. In this situation they just send the BOP a notice of your intent to test, BOP responds yes when your file is complete with end date for ATT, NABP sends notification to Pearson, Pearson sends you the ATT to schedule, Pearson sends results to NABP, NABP sends results to BOP. NABP is just the facilitator. The onus is really on the BOP and you.

Have you considered taking an MPJE for a state that is covered by Dr. Cutie or Dr. Strauss? Their review books are extremely helpful (though I prefer Cutie over Strauss).

Dr. Cutie has books for NY, NJ, FL, CT, NAPLEX, & Part 3 (NY).
Dr. Strauss has books for NY, NJ, FL, & PA.

You mentioned being from CT so Dr. Cutie's notes for CT (and NAPLEX?) seem like a slam dunk. Both Dr's include federal coverage with each state. Just keep in mind that if your underlying problem in passing the MPJE is federal law that this will not be resolved by switching states.

It surprised my how many people don't do score transfer. Your score is extremely valuable! Who know's if you'll need to relocate before that state's eligibility to reciprocate kicks in. [Plus NABP's License transfer fee+board reciprocity fee is much more than original RPh by exam fee to BOP+NAPLEX test fee.] Especially since you have difficulty in passing the MPJE, score transfer to states that will use your NAPLEX score for longer:

• NY/NJ = 5 years after NAPLEX test date.
• FL = 3 yrs.
• NC/TX = 2 yrs.
• CT/MA = 1 yrs.
• RI = 6 mos.
• PA = not addressed

Some states may have more stringent attempt limits than NABP's 5.

P.S. Your post the other day (before you edited it) had me concerned and wishing SDN had Facebook's suicide detection algorithm. I hope your are feeling much better than last week. Good luck!
P.P.S. I do not recommend you try to seek licensure in NY because of the Part 3 exam.

"Then if it looks like one MPJE is truly a dead end switch gears to the other. Fill out another initial RPH by score transfer application to the next state..."

MindGeek, what do you mean by "dead end" and switch? Let's say your primary jurisdiction is with State X, you pass the NAPLEX, but you fail the MPJE multiple times for that state, do you mean to abandon State X as your primary state and initiate a Licensing Via Score Transfer application with State Y, transfer over the NAPLEX score, and take the MPJE for State Y so that if you pass, State Y will become your new primary jurisdiction? But wouldn't that be the same thing as the "Change Primary Jurisdiction" option? Whatever will happen to State X after you've finally abandoned attempting to pass their MPJE? Are we allowed to abandon it like that?

Doesn't 8 score transfers cost $600? I think that means if you want to utilize the "licensure by score transfer" for any of those 8 states you chose, then you'd have to apply for licensure within 1-2 years of the score transfer or the score transfer expires and you'd have to resort to the old fashioned and more costly licensure tranfer, right? Are you getting licensure in all 8 states or are they for back-ups only? Are there a lot of people who did score transfers to multiple states within that 90-day window like you did?

 

[swatchgirl]

I will offer general advice to first time test takers first...
Make your primary jurisdiction the state that you want to take your first MPJE in. If you are choosing between two with no time crunch and you know that one board of pharmacy is much faster than the other, have that one be responsible for authorizing your NAPLEX and MPJE ATTs. Right out the gate you apply for both at the same time. Fill out your initial RPh app to the BOP as soon as they allow. Apply through NABP the day you get your passing grade on your last APPE to take the NAPLEX and the first state's MPJE. This will speed up the process since the board of pharmacy will have your file and your two test requests in hand the day your school sends verification that you graduated.

Now for advice for you @doe_eyed ...
Make the NAPLEX your primary target. This hurdle needs to be overcome regardless of which state's MPJE you conquer. Once you pass the NAPLEX score transfer like it's going out of style within the 90 day window (I did 8). Then if it looks like one MPJE is truly a dead end switch gears to the other. Fill out another initial RPH by score transfer application to the next state, have your school fill out their stuff, if you put in for score transfer thru NABP the BOP will already have your NAPLEX score, apply to take that MPJE on NABP, BOP should quickly approve your ATT since they literally have everything except for your MPJE score.


The NABP does not prefer anything. In this situation they just send the BOP a notice of your intent to test, BOP responds yes when your file is complete with end date for ATT, NABP sends notification to Pearson, Pearson sends you the ATT to schedule, Pearson sends results to NABP, NABP sends results to BOP. NABP is just the facilitator. The onus is really on the BOP and you.

Have you considered taking an MPJE for a state that is covered by Dr. Cutie or Dr. Strauss? Their review books are extremely helpful (though I prefer Cutie over Strauss).

Dr. Cutie has books for NY, NJ, FL, CT, NAPLEX, & Part 3 (NY).
Dr. Strauss has books for NY, NJ, FL, & PA.

You mentioned being from CT so Dr. Cutie's notes for CT (and NAPLEX?) seem like a slam dunk. Both Dr's include federal coverage with each state. Just keep in mind that if your underlying problem in passing the MPJE is federal law that this will not be resolved by switching states.

It surprised my how many people don't do score transfer. Your score is extremely valuable! Who know's if you'll need to relocate before that state's eligibility to reciprocate kicks in. [Plus NABP's License transfer fee+board reciprocity fee is much more than original RPh by exam fee to BOP+NAPLEX test fee.] Especially since you have difficulty in passing the MPJE, score transfer to states that will use your NAPLEX score for longer:

• NY/NJ = 5 years after NAPLEX test date.
• FL = 3 yrs.
• NC/TX = 2 yrs.
• CT/MA = 1 yrs.
• RI = 6 mos.
• PA = not addressed

Some states may have more stringent attempt limits than NABP's 5.

P.S. Your post the other day (before you edited it) had me concerned and wishing SDN had Facebook's suicide detection algorithm. I hope your are feeling much better than last week. Good luck!
P.P.S. I do not recommend you try to seek licensure in NY because of the Part 3 exam.

Could you please cite where you found the table below? Are these the maximum allowable numbers of years (how come they differ so significantly from state to state??) to get licensed via score transfer before the NAPLEX score expires? How do we see the stats for the other states?

...score transfer to states that will use your NAPLEX score for longer:

• NY/NJ = 5 years after NAPLEX test date.
• FL = 3 yrs.
• NC/TX = 2 yrs.
• CT/MA = 1 yrs.
• RI = 6 mos.
• PA = not addressed

 

[MindGeek]

Could you please cite where you found the table below? Are these the maximum allowable numbers of years (how come they differ so significantly from state to state??) to get licensed via score transfer before the NAPLEX score expires? How do we see the stats for the other states?

They come from the 2015 Survey of Pharmacy Law. NABP provides the Survey to colleges of pharmacy for distribution free of charge to their final-year pharmacy students from a grant from Purdue Pharma. Otherwise it costs $195 to buy. If your school didn't give you the disk with it on it they clearly owe you one.
The 2012 edition is here to tide you over...
https://pharmacy.uc.edu/admin/documents/2012 Survey of Pharmacy Law.pdf
Score Transfer Validity starts on PDF page 20 (document page 9).

States get to decide this, so each state is different. The 1 year 'default' of validity is more than likely because in most states you have to complete your application file within 1 year or you have to resubmit everything and another fee.

Score transfers have to be put in for within 90 days of sitting for the exam. There is not point in putting in for them before you know if you passed. Score transfers are valid for X years from the date you sat for the exam. If you have specific questions about score transfers the staffers on the NABP Live Chat function during weekdays are very helpful.

 

[MindGeek]

what do you mean by "dead end" and switch? Let's say your primary jurisdiction is with State X, you pass the NAPLEX, but you fail the MPJE multiple times for that state, do you mean to abandon State X as your primary state and initiate a Licensing Via Score Transfer application with State Y, transfer over the NAPLEX score, and take the MPJE for State Y so that if you pass, State Y will become your new primary jurisdiction? But wouldn't that be the same thing as the "Change Primary Jurisdiction" option?

Dead end meaning you're done trying to pass your first state's MPJE (state X) or run out of attempts. If you've passed the NAPLEX the jurisdiction for that doesn't matter because it is in the past. Just make sure you score transfer to all the other states in the realm of possibilities. The jurisdiction for the MPJE should match the state that it is for. Changing jurisdiction in regards to an MPJE would only be useful if you have already paid the $210 for state X and want to take state Y instead before scheduling with Pearson. State Y would get a notification that they need to approve you for their MPJE and would be looking for a pharmacist application from you. If after passing the NAPLEX you have no active registrations for an MPJE just put in for state Y's MPJE on NABP and file an app with Y's BOP. Before doing any jurisdiction changes, especially NAPLEX jurisdiction changes, I recommend live chatting with the NABP during the weekdays 9-5 central standard time. They are very helpful...https://chat.nabp.net/ECCChat/chat.html

Whatever will happen to State X after you've finally abandoned attempting to pass their MPJE? Are we allowed to abandon it like that?

You can just abandon. They have your application fee. They can't force you to take the exams. If you don't meet all their requirements and pass all their exams within the proscribed time the application, typically 1 year, it will just expire and you'd have to resubmit the application, affidavits, and fee to start over again in that State. The non-refundable portion is for their processing and handling of your app and approving the ATTs. Typically if you notify them in writing about 'withdrawing' your application they will refund the portion of the application fee that goes toward the 'prepaid' first cycle of licensure.

Doesn't 8 score transfers cost $600?

Yes it does. It's more about reducing risk. Retaking the NAPLEX after X amount of years is a risk. And reciprocity is not unequivocal. Reciprocity is reciprocal. Basically if you are transferring from a restrictive state to a less-restrictive state right out of school you will be stuck. If you were trying to reciprocate to NY they would require that you have 2080 hours as an RPh. If you have an NY license and try to reciprocate to say North Carolina before working as an RPh, NC would deny you because you do not have the 2080 hours that NY makes NC RPhs have to get to get reciprocity in NY. For FL you have to have 2 years of experience in the last 5 years, again a problem if you are fresh out of school. Reciprocity is tricky, and score transfer avoids this. Siskind Skinner has an epic chart on license requirements by reciprocity and exam by state here...
http://www.visalaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/pharmacistchart.pdf

The electronic license transfer through NABP is $375 for the 1st state, then $75 for each additional state. Reciprocity fees to the BOP vary by state but are often prohibitively more than original applications. For example a reciprocity application to NC costs $600 while a regular original license by exam (or score transfer) application costs $100. Doing a score transfer, and paying the normal application fee is a better value than E-LTP even if you have the reciprocal RPh hours to reciprocate out. Here are 3 examples

If the NAPLEX is behind you (fee to BOP underlined)...

• NC reciprocity grand total would be 375+210+600=$1180 vs. 210+75+100=$385 for score transfer. Heck even with the NAPLEX fee in NC it's still $290 cheaper than doing E-LTP
• MA reciprocity grand total would be 375+525+210=$1119 vs. 375+75+210=$660 for score transfer.
• CT reciprocity grand total would be 375+200+210=$785 vs. 200+75+210=$485 for score transfer.

Doing score transfers would save you $795, $459, & $300. $75/state is cheap insurance.

A good list of reciprocity fees to BOPs is here...
http://www.nabp.net/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/001/084/original/statefeeslist-0815.pdf

I think that means if you want to utilize the "licensure by score transfer" for any of those 8 states you chose, then you'd have to apply for licensure within 1-2 years of the score transfer or the score transfer expires and you'd have to resort to the old fashioned and more costly licensure tranfer, right?

After a successful NAPLEX you would have to apply to their BOP and pass their MPJE within both the score transfer window and their application window. If you're past the score transfer window you'd apply by E-LTP.

Are you getting licensure in all 8 states or are they for back-ups only?

Licensed in 2 out of the 8 so far, just passed the MPJE for the 3rd, which will give me a total of 4 licenses, including my first(home) state, all original by exam. I was full summer course load when I took the NAPLEX and my home state's MPJE which was not fun. But between September and December I've only been taking 6 credits and not working since I knew I was going to be done with my MBA three days from now and moving back home.

I had the free time to take 3 MPJEs in 4 months so I did. Who know's where my career will take me? I just don't want to be stuck in May (when my loan repayment starts) with potential jobs elsewhere and have to retake the NAPLEX and take a new MPJE if they don't reciprocate based on lack of RPH experience (since I'm fresh out of school). Though after 4 MPJEs in 6 months I'm quite content and won't take advantage of the other 5 unless I absolutely have to. I will concede that 8 for a person not going into the unpredictable residency match is too much.

 

[swatchgirl]

Dead end meaning you're done trying to pass your first state's MPJE (state X) or run out of attempts. If you've passed the NAPLEX the jurisdiction for that doesn't matter because it is in the past. Just make sure you score transfer to all the other states in the realm of possibilities. The jurisdiction for the MPJE should match the state that it is for. Changing jurisdiction in regards to an MPJE would only be useful if you have already paid the $210 for state X and want to take state Y instead before scheduling with Pearson. State Y would get a notification that they need to approve you for their MPJE and would be looking for a pharmacist application from you. If after passing the NAPLEX you have no active registrations for an MPJE just put in for state Y's MPJE on NABP and file an app with Y's BOP. Before doing any jurisdiction changes, especially NAPLEX jurisdiction changes, I recommend live chatting with the NABP during the weekdays 9-5 central standard time. They are very helpful...https://chat.nabp.net/ECCChat/chat.html

You can just abandon. They have your application fee. They can't force you to take the exams. If you don't meet all their requirements and pass all their exams within the proscribed time the application, typically 1 year, it will just expire and you'd have to resubmit the application, affidavits, and fee to start over again in that State. The non-refundable portion is for their processing and handling of your app and approving the ATTs. Typically if you notify them in writing about 'withdrawing' your application they will refund the portion of the application fee that goes toward the 'prepaid' first cycle of licensure.

Yes it does. It's more about reducing risk. Retaking the NAPLEX after X amount of years is a risk. And reciprocity is not unequivocal. Reciprocity is reciprocal. Basically if you are transferring from a restrictive state to a less-restrictive state right out of school you will be stuck. If you were trying to reciprocate to NY they would require that you have 2080 hours as an RPh. If you have an NY license and try to reciprocate to say North Carolina before working as an RPh, NC would deny you because you do not have the 2080 hours that NY makes NC RPhs have to get to get reciprocity in NY. For FL you have to have 2 years of experience in the last 5 years, again a problem if you are fresh out of school. Reciprocity is tricky, and score transfer avoids this. Siskind Skinner has an epic chart on license requirements by reciprocity and exam by state here...
http://www.visalaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/pharmacistchart.pdf

The electronic license transfer through NABP is $375 for the 1st state, then $75 for each additional state. Reciprocity fees to the BOP vary by state but are often prohibitively more than original applications. For example a reciprocity application to NC costs $600 while a regular original license by exam (or score transfer) application costs $100. Doing a score transfer, and paying the normal application fee is a better value than E-LTP even if you have the reciprocal RPh hours to reciprocate out. Here are 3 examples

If the NAPLEX is behind you (fee to BOP underlined)...

• NC reciprocity grand total would be 375+210+600=$1180 vs. 210+75+100=$385 for score transfer. Heck even with the NAPLEX fee in NC it's still $290 cheaper than doing E-LTP
• MA reciprocity grand total would be 375+525+210=$1119 vs. 375+75+210=$660 for score transfer.
• CT reciprocity grand total would be 375+200+210=$785 vs. 200+75+210=$485 for score transfer.

Doing score transfers would save you $795, $459, & $300. $75/state is cheap insurance.

A good list of reciprocity fees to BOPs is here...
http://www.nabp.net/system/rich/rich_files/rich_files/000/001/084/original/statefeeslist-0815.pdf

After a successful NAPLEX you would have to apply to their BOP and pass their MPJE within both the score transfer window and their application window. If you're past the score transfer window you'd apply by E-LTP.

Licensed in 2 out of the 8 so far, just passed the MPJE for the 3rd, which will give me a total of 4 licenses, including my first(home) state, all original by exam. I was full summer course load when I took the NAPLEX and my home state's MPJE which was not fun. But between September and December I've only been taking 6 credits and not working since I knew I was going to be done with my MBA three days from now and moving back home.

I had the free time to take 3 MPJEs in 4 months so I did. Who know's where my career will take me? I just don't want to be stuck in May (when my loan repayment starts) with potential jobs elsewhere and have to retake the NAPLEX and take a new MPJE if they don't reciprocate based on lack of RPH experience (since I'm fresh out of school). Though after 4 MPJEs in 6 months I'm quite content and won't take advantage of the other 5 unless I absolutely have to. I will concede that 8 for a person not going into the unpredictable residency match is too much.

You are a MPJE-test taking machine. If you were studying for multiple MPJE's in 4 months, how do you keep different laws from different states separate in your head?? Are the states laws from the states you chose very similar from state to state that it makes it easy for you to do the tests at the same time? Or are you just very smart you can cram them all into your head and still not get confused which law statute is for which state?

I think of the $75 as an insurance too, I just didn't know people used the score transfer option so liberally. Even though it will potentially save money in the long run, the immediate cost does add up, and takes a huge chunk from my checking account.

Most of what you wrote made sense. Under what circumstances or scenarios would you NOT want your "basis state" license (that original state that you did original licensure by exam) to lapse, or as in, letting it expire without renewing it? Do you EVER want that home license to expire? What if state X is your original state licensure by exam, but you did a NAPLEX score transfer to state Y and passed the MPJE for state Y. Can you now let the state X license to expire, especially if you no longer live or work there? What if you wanted to do a license transfer from state Y to state Z sometime later? Is that even allowed since your state X licensure was your original "basis state" (which you have allowed to expire), not state Y?

------------------------

So I guess the gist of it is, I thought you can ONLY do licensure transfer from your original state by exam? Is that not right? Thanks again for all the helpful pointers! (You do live up to the name "mindgeek"...)

 

[swatchgirl]

Dead end meaning you're done trying to pass your first state's MPJE (state X) or run out of attempts. If you've passed the NAPLEX the jurisdiction for that doesn't matter because it is in the past.

And to make sure I am (as well as anyone else reading this is) understanding the basic terminology correctly.... whichever state is your "Primary Jurisdiction" is the very same thing as the state that you did "Original License by Examination" with, right?

So if you abandon state X in our previous "dead-end" scenario, let's say you failed the MPJE of state X or for whatever reason, you no longer want to pursue licensure in state X even though you had already designated it as your "Primary Jurisdiction", are you saying that the next state you request an ATT from (and take the MPJE for) will automatically become your new Primary Jurisdiction after the ATT for state X closes?

 

[swatchgirl]

Licensed in 2 out of the 8 so far, just passed the MPJE for the 3rd, which will give me a total of 4 licenses, including my first(home) state, all original by exam. I was full summer course load when I took the NAPLEX and my home state's MPJE which was not fun. But between September and December I've only been taking 6 credits and not working since I knew I was going to be done with my MBA three days from now and moving back home.

I had the free time to take 3 MPJEs in 4 months so I did. Who know's where my career will take me? I just don't want to be stuck in May (when my loan repayment starts) with potential jobs elsewhere and have to retake the NAPLEX and take a new MPJE if they don't reciprocate based on lack of RPH experience (since I'm fresh out of school). Though after 4 MPJEs in 6 months I'm quite content and won't take advantage of the other 5 unless I absolutely have to. I will concede that 8 for a person not going into the unpredictable residency match is too much.

So you've taken and passed the MPJE 4 times already? Do you feel like the MPJE gets steadily easier to prepare for as you take more and more MPJEs (despite the individual differences in state laws from state to state)?

 

[swatchgirl]

After a successful NAPLEX you would have to apply to their BOP and pass their MPJE within both the score transfer window and their application window. If you're past the score transfer window you'd apply by E-LTP.

Passing the MPJE within both the score transfer window and the ATT window? But the "score transfer window" that we've been referring to up until now is that 90 days window, isn't it?
Or do you mean that table you were referring to from the 2015 Survey of Pharmacy Law CD (the Score Transfer Validity window) that lists the number of years the NAPLEX score remains valid after doing the score transfer? So we will have to get licensed within THAT time period AND within the ATT window, or risk having to apply by E-LTP, correct?

 

[MindGeek]

You are a MPJE-test taking machine. If you were studying for multiple MPJE's in 4 months, how do you keep different laws from different states separate in your head?? Are the states laws from the states you chose very similar from state to state that it makes it easy for you to do the tests at the same time? Or are you just very smart you can cram them all into your head and still not get confused which law statute is for which state?

Thanks. You have to be very organized. Each state was very different. Having a firm base in Federal law helped me a lot. I used two different review books for my first state, MPJE reviews notes from a school in my 2nd state for my 2nd (yay for SDN friends), MPJE review notes from a school in my 3rd state for the 3rd (again SDN), and bought a review book for my 4th. I didn't cram but instead made useful at a glance tables that would be helpful if I was working in one of those states.

Or are you just very smart you can cram them all into your head and still not get confused which law statute is for which state?

I am not 'smart' by most pharmacy student definitions. I had my dual (X+4) seat given away in undergrad. I got left back a year in pharmacy school because of P&T. That is in the past, now I have my Pharm.D, and by the time the ball drops I'll have my MBA and 4 original RPh licenses. You will overcome soon @swatchgirl with time and discipline and listening to fellow SDNers.

So you've taken and passed the MPJE 4 times already? Do you feel like the MPJE gets steadily easier to prepare for as you take more and more MPJEs?

It did get steadily easier since I knew which things are worth memorizing, which things are on boards radars, and which would be a waste to focus on. The score on my first was my highest, and each since has been a couple points lower than the prior. I was studying less for each especially spending less time on Federal each time.

The "score transfer window" that we've been referring to up until now is that 90 days window, isn't it?
Or do you mean that table you were referring to from the 2015 Pharmacy Survey CD (the Score Transfer Validity window) that lists the number of years the NAPLEX score remains valid after doing the score transfer?

You have 90 days after sitting to put in for your score to be transferred. The validity window is how long a board will accept that score after sitting.

Under what circumstances or scenarios would you NOT want your "basis state" license (that original state that you did original licensure by exam) to lapse, or as in, letting it expire without renewing it? Do you EVER want that home license to expire? What if state X is your original state licensure by exam, but you did a NAPLEX score transfer to state Y and passed the MPJE for state Y. Can you now let the state X license to expire, especially if you no longer live or work there? What if you wanted to do a license transfer from state Y to state Z sometime later? Is that even allowed since your state X licensure was your original "basis state" (which you have allowed to expire), not state Y?

If you reciprocate out typically you have to keep the license you reciprocated from in good standing. There are exceptions to this which the NABP Survey elucidates. I hesitate to say the original license that you transferred from because if you have two licenses by exam you can choose which one to reciprocate out. Let's say that I have a license by exam in NC and a license by exam in NY but no RPH hours yet. NY requires 2080 on incoming reciprocity candidates but NC requires 0. So basically I could use the NC license as the one I'm reciprocating out to avoid hours issues, but I'd still be overpaying to get the license, and have to keep my NY in good standing in perpetuity.

I thought you can ONLY do licensure transfer from your original state by exam?

You should be able to transfer out any licensure by exam. Individual state statutes could be specific enough to require that you only transfer your first license to them, but I can't think of any specific examples. The Survey might have that in the footnotes.

So if you abandon state X in our previous "dead-end" scenario, let's say you failed the MPJE of state X or for whatever reason, you no longer want to pursue licensure in state X even though you had already designated it as your "Primary Jurisdiction", are you saying that the next state you request an ATT from (and take the MPJE for) will automatically become your new Primary Jurisdiction after the ATT for state X closes?

This is a very specific question that could best be answered by NABP live chat while they are in your e-Profile.
You can have multiple ATTs for different MPJEs from different states open at the same time (i was unsure of this and asked them on live chat and did it). If the NAPLEX is behind you the primary jurisdiction for the MPJE you want to attempt would be that state that writes that MPJE. Just make sure you score transferred and have an application on file with them.

 

[swatchgirl]

Thanks. You have to be very organized. Each state was very different. Having a firm base in Federal law helped me a lot. I used two different review books for my first state, MPJE reviews notes from a school in my 2nd state for my 2nd (yay for SDN friends), MPJE review notes from a school in my 3rd state for the 3rd (again SDN), and bought a review book for my 4th. I didn't cram but instead made useful at a glance tables that would be helpful if I was working in one of those states.

I am not 'smart' by most pharmacy student definitions. I had my dual (X+4) seat given away in undergrad. I got left back a year in pharmacy school because of P&T. That is in the past, now I have my Pharm.D, and by the time the ball drops I'll have my MBA and 4 original RPh licenses. You will overcome soon @swatchgirl with time and discipline and listening to fellow SDNers.

It did get steadily easier since I knew which things are worth memorizing, which things are on boards radars, and which would be a waste to focus on. The score on my first was my highest, and each since has been a couple points lower than the prior. I was studying less for each especially spending less time on Federal each time.

You have 90 days after sitting to put in for your score to be transferred. The validity window is how long a board will accept that score after sitting.

If you reciprocate out typically you have to keep the license you reciprocated from in good standing. There are exceptions to this which the NABP Survey elucidates. I hesitate to say the original license that you transferred from because if you have two licenses by exam you can choose which one to reciprocate out. Let's say that I have a license by exam in NC and a license by exam in NY but no RPH hours yet. NY requires 2080 on incoming reciprocity candidates but NC requires 0. So basically I could use the NC license as the one I'm reciprocating out to avoid hours issues, but I'd still be overpaying to get the license, and have to keep my NY in good standing in perpetuity.

You should be able to transfer out any licensure by exam. Individual state statutes could be specific enough to require that you only transfer your first license to them, but I can't think of any specific examples. The Survey might have that in the footnotes.

This is a very specific question that could best be answered by NABP live chat while they are in your e-Profile.
You can have multiple ATTs for different MPJEs from different states open at the same time (i was unsure of this and asked them on live chat and did it). If the NAPLEX is behind you the primary jurisdiction for the MPJE you want to attempt would be that state that writes that MPJE. Just make sure you score transferred and have an application on file with them.

I had previously thought that "licensure by exam" was synonymous with "primary jurisdiction". But now I see we can actually do licensure by exam for multiple states, and yet we can still have just have one primary jurisdiction... So then what is the point of even having a primary jurisdiction? Since we can have multiple ATTs for different MPJEs open simultaneously, does it matter which state I designate as my primary jurisdiction?

I already passed the NAPLEX using the NAPLEX ATT issued by my CURRENT primary jurisdiction, but I am now thinking of changing my primary to a different state... However I read on the NABP website that the MPJE ATT I received from my current primary jurisdiction will become invalid if I change the primary to another state. I have not taken the MPJE for my current primary state, yet. But if my current MPJE ATT becomes invalid, does it mean I won't be able to take the MPJE for my current primary state without having to pay the MPJE application fee again?

 

[swatchgirl]

I used two different review books for my first state, MPJE reviews notes from a school in my 2nd state for my 2nd (yay for SDN friends), MPJE review notes from a school in my 3rd state for the 3rd (again SDN), and bought a review book for my 4th.

Wow, you're really making it sound like there are a lot of generous and empathetic folks on here... You are definitely one of them for taking so much care to answer questions. But how much good karma would I have to have to bump into more people who are like you? lol

 

[swatchgirl]

You should be able to transfer out any licensure by exam. Individual state statutes could be specific enough to require that you only transfer your first license to them, but I can't think of any specific examples. The Survey might have that in the footnotes.

I'll take a closer look at that survey disk. How is it that you are so clear on these processes and definitions? "Licensure by exam", "primary jurisdiction", "reciprocity is not unequivocal", "reciprocated out", "reciprocated from", "transfer versus reciprocity", "don't let the original lapse if you're doing reciprocity"... I'm good for the most part but I'm still feeling hazy on these from time to time. Besides combing through this forum for answers, is there not an authoritative source for the official definitions of these processes? I am reading the NABP FAQs section diligently as I'm typing this, and I have re-read the NAPLEX/MPJE 2015 Bulletin, but why do I still feel confused?

Does the title "primary jurisdiction", by definition, mean it is the state whose ATT letter we used to register and to pass the NAPLEX with? If so, wouldn't that mean it's impossible to change one's primary jurisdiction after one has already taken and passed the NAPLEX using that state's ATT? Or am I way off? I need to devote an entire day to read over just this stuff, it feels like, but I don't know what material to read other than the NABP FAQs. The Survey disk just has tables after tables of stats and requirements. Where would I be able to find a "dictionary" that lists out the clear definitions of these words, such as "primary jurisdiction" and "licensure by exam"...

And what does "licensure by exam" mean, anyway? Is the MPJE not an exam that we have to take to get licensed? We are to take a separate MPJE for just about every state in order to get licensed in those states, regardless of whether the NAPLEX was by original exam or transferred, or whether a license was transferred or reciprocated... since a state-specific MPJE has to be taken no matter HOW we want to get licensed, shouldn't it mean that every state we get licensed in are essentially "licensure by exam"? Or is the term "licensure by exam" reserved only for that very first state that issued us the NAPLEX ATT letter (and it is the ATT we used to pass the NAPLEX with) as well as all the subsequent states that we did score transfers to?

Sorry for the rant, I just think this whole licensure business feels more complicated than it has to be. Or is it actually really simple and as simple as it could possibly get?

 

[swatchgirl]

The jurisdiction for the MPJE should match the state that it is for. Changing jurisdiction in regards to an MPJE would only be useful if you have already paid the $210 for state X and want to take state Y instead before scheduling with Pearson. State Y would get a notification that they need to approve you for their MPJE and would be looking for a pharmacist application from you. If after passing the NAPLEX you have no active registrations for an MPJE just put in for state Y's MPJE on NABP and file an app with Y's BOP. Before doing any jurisdiction changes, especially NAPLEX jurisdiction changes, I recommend live chatting with the NABP during the weekdays 9-5 central standard time. They are very helpful...https://chat.nabp.net/ECCChat/chat.html

I think I finally understand what you meant here. All it took was going to bed, and sleep, apparently... and I woke up this morning suddenly being able to understand everything you wrote here so clearly. The brain is a mysterious beast... I'm actually considering changing jurisdiction for the MPJE and I've already paid the $210 to sit for my current primary, like you wrote... I guess I best start getting a set of fingerprints and application ready for the new primary I want to change to. The new ATT is going to be a pain to wait for, though. But at least this part you wrote is reassuring:

Fill out another initial RPH by score transfer application to the next state, have your school fill out their stuff, if you put in for score transfer thru NABP the BOP will already have your NAPLEX score, apply to take that MPJE on NABP, BOP should quickly approve your ATT since they literally have everything except for your MPJE score.

I just wish there was a way to change primary jurisdiction *after* taking the MPJE since I did already put in a lot of hours studying for it. I'm going to use that live chat to confirm a few things before I make any drastic changes. Thanks again for everything!

 

[swatchgirl]

Especially since you have difficulty in passing the MPJE, score transfer to states that will use your NAPLEX score for longer...

But what if you hate the cold? I have been told that I am psyching myself out since I've not taken any MPJE yet. My problem is I'm not a very big risk taker because I have been burned in the past when I did take a chance. Hopefully I'll be able to overcome soon, like you said, and pass it on the first try.

 

[swatchgirl]

And reciprocity is not unequivocal. Reciprocity is reciprocal.

Who know's if you'll need to relocate before that state's eligibility to reciprocate kicks in.

I scrutinized the Survey disk and that Siskind Susser (not Skinner ) table some more, and now that I had some sleep, I get you completely. The benefits for score transfer are numerous, especially given all the annoying reciprocity requirements... Compared to doing score transfer, reciprocity is a pill! (forgive the cheesy pun)
Take Kansas for example, this is their condition: "If the state from which you are transferring your license requires one year of licensure prior to transferring to that state, Kansas requires the same period."

Just like you said, it is like a tooth for an eye. Such vengeful spirits that made all these rules... why can't we all just get along and live happily?

I also don't have $600 right at the moment to fork over to NABP, otherwise I'd double that amount. Okay maybe not double it, because aside from the ones you listed in your nifty little "at-a-glance" table up there (see MindGeek? I'm learning!), most states still just keep the NAPLEX score for 1 year after you transfer it over to them... I think I might just do half of what you did.
I love you for being such a geek!
(and how you pay good attention to things big and small)
Thanks so much again for sharing your expertise and warm thoughts with us.

 

[swatchgirl]

Licensed in 2 out of the 8 so far, just passed the MPJE for the 3rd, which will give me a total of 4 licenses, including my first(home) state, all original by exam. I was full summer course load when I took the NAPLEX and my home state's MPJE which was not fun. But between September and December I've only been taking 6 credits and not working since I knew I was going to be done with my MBA three days from now and moving back home.

I had the free time to take 3 MPJEs in 4 months so I did. Who know's where my career will take me? I just don't want to be stuck in May (when my loan repayment starts) with potential jobs elsewhere and have to retake the NAPLEX and take a new MPJE if they don't reciprocate based on lack of RPH experience (since I'm fresh out of school). Though after 4 MPJEs in 6 months I'm quite content and won't take advantage of the other 5 unless I absolutely have to. I will concede that 8 for a person not going into the unpredictable residency match is too much.

You were doing full summer course and it was not fun, but you said you still had the best score on that first MPJE out of all four, no? And you still deny for being smart. It's one more day left, isn't it? Going back home victorious must be a terrific feeling. Congratulations on getting your MBA! Go, MindGeek, Go...
(I'm done with all my silly questions, will go make myself useful now!)

 

[MindGeek]

Thanks so much again for sharing your expertise and warm thoughts with us.

You're welcome. And thanks. I'm just doing my part here on SDN. My school prepared use well in school and during board review for our MPJE and the NAPLEX, but did not talk about how all of this 'fine print' stuff works. A professor who took the NAPLEX 5+ years ago gave us a quick overview of how things work, but more time and detail was needed.

What/when/where/why/how you get licensed is a complicated process and should be taught before going into APPEs, but at least during board review. Getting licensed in one of my state's post-NAPLEX required 25 different 'actions' to get from start to finish. Most by me, but some between my school and the board, between NABP and the board, NABP and Pearson. Plus there's NABP's site, Pearson's site, the Board's site, certified mailing the Board, notaries, fingerprinting, transcripts, and passport photos. My 'easiest' state process-wise had 16 'actions.'

I'm actually considering changing jurisdiction for the MPJE and I've already paid the $210 to sit for my current primary, like you wrote... I guess I best start getting a set of fingerprints and application ready for the new primary I want to change to. The new ATT is going to be a pain to wait for, though.

Since you've already got an ATT for state 1 why not just give it one last shot? You already paid for it. You can have two ATTs for two different states open at the same time. I'd give it another shot while you wait for the other board to process your app. If you switch you'll have to pay the $50 penalty, it'll invalidate state 1's ATT, and you'll be stuck waiting. Once you take the 1st state's MPJE switch over to studying for state 2 regardless if you passed or not, and by then you'll have the ATT from state 2 to schedule. Good luck!

 

[doe_eyed]

I will offer general advice to first time test takers first...
Make your primary jurisdiction the state that you want to take your first MPJE in. If you are choosing between two with no time crunch and you know that one board of pharmacy is much faster than the other, have that one be responsible for authorizing your NAPLEX and MPJE ATTs. Right out the gate you apply for both at the same time. Fill out your initial RPh app to the BOP as soon as they allow. Apply through NABP the day you get your passing grade on your last APPE to take the NAPLEX and the first state's MPJE. This will speed up the process since the board of pharmacy will have your file and your two test requests in hand the day your school sends verification that you graduated.

Now for advice for you @doe_eyed ...
Make the NAPLEX your primary target. This hurdle needs to be overcome regardless of which state's MPJE you conquer. Once you pass the NAPLEX score transfer like it's going out of style within the 90 day window (I did 8). Then if it looks like one MPJE is truly a dead end switch gears to the other. Fill out another initial RPH by score transfer application to the next state, have your school fill out their stuff, if you put in for score transfer thru NABP the BOP will already have your NAPLEX score, apply to take that MPJE on NABP, BOP should quickly approve your ATT since they literally have everything except for your MPJE score.


The NABP does not prefer anything. In this situation they just send the BOP a notice of your intent to test, BOP responds yes when your file is complete with end date for ATT, NABP sends notification to Pearson, Pearson sends you the ATT to schedule, Pearson sends results to NABP, NABP sends results to BOP. NABP is just the facilitator. The onus is really on the BOP and you.

Have you considered taking an MPJE for a state that is covered by Dr. Cutie or Dr. Strauss? Their review books are extremely helpful (though I prefer Cutie over Strauss).

Dr. Cutie has books for NY, NJ, FL, CT, NAPLEX, & Part 3 (NY).
Dr. Strauss has books for NY, NJ, FL, & PA.

You mentioned being from CT so Dr. Cutie's notes for CT (and NAPLEX?) seem like a slam dunk. Both Dr's include federal coverage with each state. Just keep in mind that if your underlying problem in passing the MPJE is federal law that this will not be resolved by switching states.

It surprised my how many people don't do score transfer. Your score is extremely valuable! Who know's if you'll need to relocate before that state's eligibility to reciprocate kicks in. [Plus NABP's License transfer fee+board reciprocity fee is much more than original RPh by exam fee to BOP+NAPLEX test fee.] Especially since you have difficulty in passing the MPJE, score transfer to states that will use your NAPLEX score for longer:

• NY/NJ = 5 years after NAPLEX test date.
• FL = 3 yrs.
• NC/TX = 2 yrs.
• CT/MA = 1 yr.
• RI = 6 mos.
• PA = not addressed

Some states may have more stringent attempt limits than NABP's 5.

P.S. Your post the other day (before you edited it) had me concerned and wishing SDN had Facebook's suicide detection algorithm. I hope your are feeling much better than last week. Good luck!
P.P.S. I do not recommend you try to seek licensure in NY because of the Part 3 exam.

Dear MindGeek (@MindGeek ,)

Words cannot express how thankful I am for this excellent advice and insight you have provided me (and others.) I will do just as you said. You pointed out a very valid point with utilizing states that use the NAPLEX score longer. Also, I was not even considering NY for the very fact you mentioned...wet lab+my anxiety and reaction to failure do not seem like a good combination.

You are right - this entire process should BE TAUGHT. They literally went over it in 1 hour at 8pm one week before graduation. They lectured it under the assumption we were all from MA. I was delayed about 3 weeks with my ATT because last minute something in my gut told me to email my school one last time double checking I had the right forms to send in with my ATT application - sure enough, (and thankfully because I got a different person in the department) the form documenting my 1500 intern hours was apparently only to be utilized for MA. It would not have done me any good if I tried to use it for any other state's ATT application. This entire process has been a true nightmare, and I cannot wait for it to all be behind me.

Thank you so much for your concern regarding my other post. I am feeling better now, but still defeated nevertheless.

Kindly,

doe_eyed