Phd Clinical Psych. v. Phd Counseling

[psychchic]

Okay so I know there have been other threads about this but I am in a position right now where I am deciding on staying in my home city and doing the Phd Counseling degree or moving to a far off city and doing the Phd Clinical Psychology degree. To make matters complicated my husband would rather stay but could keep his job if we moved. My question is am I crazy to be considering doing the Phd Counseling program? Ideally, I would like to teach, have a small practice and maybe work as an expert witness. How much "better" or how much more is a PHd clinical psych degree worth over a Phd counseling degree? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

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[perfektspace]

I think there was a good thread on this about a month back. You may want to do a search.

I general the programs are very similar in terms of cost and curriculum. Clinical delves into more serious psychiatric problems (e.g., schizophrenia) and counseling, generally, less serious disorders (e.g., anxiety).

 

[Mell-Dogg]

I think the Counseling PhD is a great option! Another difference between the programs, in addition to the severity of pathology typically dealt with, is that clinical psych tends to approach pathology from a medical model approach (with focus on symptoms and how to "fix" a client) and counseling tends to focus more on strengths, vocational interests, societal group membership (such as gender, ethnicity, and SES.) There are Clinical PhD programs which do emphasize social location and client strenth also, however (such as the clinical program I'll be attending!) Overall, you have many of the same opportunities regardless of whether you do a Counseling or Clinical PhD, and some Counseling programs tend to be a TAD easier to get admitted to, though it is still quite competitive, especially at top programs.

 

[Psyclops]

MD,
Please don't insult clinical psychology by saying that it approaches things from a medical model.
Thanks.

 

[Mell-Dogg]

I'm not insulting clinical. I'm going into an clinical program, but it is certainly true that this is generally the case. It's not bad, it's just one approach. Many clinical programs, though (as I mentioned) do take a more balanced approach.

 

[Psyclops]

I was just kidding...of course you're right.

 

[Mell-Dogg]

I was just kidding...of course you're right.

Whew! I thought you were serious! Sorry for my lapse in humor!!

Melinda

 

[Psyclops]

Here is something I find to be quite strange. Many PhD programs in counseling psychology require that a student allready have completed a master's in counseling psychology to be accepted. I find it strange for a couple of reasons, one: incoming students will have been trained by other faculty at another institution, who knows what you have been tought and if it is comparable. Two: that really limits their applicant pool. This could be a good thing in that these students have gone to get thier master's in counseling, so they are motivated and have shown that they can be successful in gradaute school. But it might be a bad thing, you would only have MA counselors coming to your program, a group that hasn't traditionally shown a great interest in or motivation for research. Also, my n of 1 (although this is one school as opposed to just me) research leads me to believe that MA counseling programs aren't the most selective and rigorous. Of course, the caliber of students will vary, some good, some bad, but there would be no way to tell. I guess it would go back to the GRE or something "objective".

 

[Psyclops]

Whew! I thought you were serious! Sorry for my lapse in humor!!

Melinda

I do think that the medical model is too simplistic for treating and particularly understanding psychopathology. Especially alopathic medicine.

 

[Jon4PsyD]

Psyclops,
Do Counseling PhD programs then expect a high level of research experience in order for prospective students to gain acceptance?

I was originally all about the PsyD. But Im not waiting to hear from two Clinical MA programs. As of now though my best acceptance offer would be from an MS in Counseling Psychology program. The issue I have is: The website says this program is an excellent option for students looking to continue on toward the doctorate, yet there is little/no research involved in the curriculum. This is what has me confused about Counseling PhD programs and what they're looking for. Since it's VERY clear what Clinical PhD/PsyD programs want.

Also: One of my professors is telling me that accepting this Counseling Psych MS offer, guarantees I will never get into a Clinical PhD program (dont care)...but she had no idea if Clinical PsyD programs would view an MS in Counseling as negatively...any thoughts?

Lastly: Is a PhD in Counseling a better option than what I thought I wanted all along, a PsyD in Clinical?

AHHH! I'm supposed to be DONE with this process, not getting more confused. LOL..your advice would be greatly appreciated


Jon

 

[Jon4PsyD]

What I meant to say is that I am NOW waiting on two Clinical MA programs (not that I am NOT waiting on them .. LOL)....

 

[clinpsychgirl]

I feel like each professor/department may have a different leaning regarding this issue. To get the information relevant to YOU, I would get in personal contact with the PsyD mentors you are interested in working with.

My suggestion to you is to email some of the mentors you originally applied to work with for PsyD in clinical.

Tell them "Thank you for considering my application...blah blah... I am still interested in applying in the future. What can I do to strengthen my application? I have the opportunity to get a Masters in counseling psych... how would this be received? Do you have other suggestions, etc?"

Good luck to you!

 

[mpino]

Jon
I am about to finish my MA in counseling psych....and i have been accepted to four clinical psyd programs i wondered the same thing though about the counseling MA but i think if you make it to the interview its more about what type of spin you put on the degree...for example, i emphasized the importance my MA program placed on culture and that i chose clinical psychology because I wanted to work with more serious psychopathology. i think its about the way you present things.....am i making sense?

 

[Jon4PsyD]

MPino, how was your research experience though? The program I got into is at Pace University and it seems like there is hardly any research within the program.

Anyway though, you telling me you got the Masters in Counseling and got into 4 PsyD programs makes me feel great that I can still keep my options open if I choose to go to Pace.

And ClinPsychGirl, thanks for the advice, I tossed out a few emails tonight after reading what you said.

Thanks guys!
Jon

 

[mpino]

i actually have very little reserach experience...but, i am doing my ma at seton hall and there are opportunities to get involved with research teams, i just havent i am sure u will find opportunities at pace if u ask around

 

[Psyclops]

Looks like I'm getting in later on this thread, but here's what I think, for what it's worth. I know that these days the counseling psychologists are often times working right out of the DSM. Although they spend alot of thier training learning about non-abnormal functioning. That is usually what makes it attractive to people. As for PsyD programs I wouldn't imagine that it would hold you back. MP's experience seems to confirm that, remember PsyD programs aren't going to be screening to ensure that you are invested in research in adition to clinical work. As for how much research gets done in Counseling PhD programs? I don't know. I would imagine that there would at least be some, it is a PhD. I I don't know if you would be amenable to doing some as opposed to tons. Good luck figuring it out.

 

[Salsybabe]

Do Counseling PhD programs then expect a high level of research experience in order for prospective students to gain acceptance?

I think they're similar to clinical programs in the programs that I've investigated in that they definitely want you to have research experience and many expect that you will, but since many counseling psych PhD programs either require a master's beforehand or most students enter with a master's first, practicum/counseling experience is looked upon favorably as well. However, research is done as much as most clinical programs.

I was originally all about the PsyD. But Im not waiting to hear from two Clinical MA programs. As of now though my best acceptance offer would be from an MS in Counseling Psychology program. The issue I have is: The website says this program is an excellent option for students looking to continue on toward the doctorate, yet there is little/no research involved in the curriculum. This is what has me confused about Counseling PhD programs and what they're looking for. Since it's VERY clear what Clinical PhD/PsyD programs want.

Also: One of my professors is telling me that accepting this Counseling Psych MS offer, guarantees I will never get into a Clinical PhD program (dont care)...but she had no idea if Clinical PsyD programs would view an MS in Counseling as negatively...any thoughts?

Lastly: Is a PhD in Counseling a better option than what I thought I wanted all along, a PsyD in Clinical?

AHHH! I'm supposed to be DONE with this process, not getting more confused. LOL..your advice would be greatly appreciated


Jon

Again, I think counseling psych PhD programs want both research and counseling experience. I had a lot of research experience in undergrad, which I feel will help with PhD programs. Currently, I'm pursuing an M.A. in counseling psychology. There was a thesis option and a non-thesis option in my program. I opted to do the thesis option, and if things go well, that's what I'm doing and graduating in 2007. I think if you don't do the thesis, you should find some research opportunities in your department while you're pursuing your master's degree. I would ask and look for those opportunities. I'm applying to PhD programs this fall, the majority being counseling psych programs, but a few clinical programs that I match in terms of research and focus, so we'll see if having an M.A. in counseling psych hurts my chances at those programs. I don't know much about clinical PsyD. I'd imagine since counseling work is required of the master's degree in counseling (my program requires a 100 hour practicum and a 600 hour internship), that experience will be looked upon favorably by PsyD programs since they value clinical/counseling experience. If you pursue the master's I would look for sites that focus on where you want to eventually practice.

A PhD in counseling would be great for you only if you don't plan to focus on severely disturbed populations and enjoy doing research, as you will do a dissertation, same as the clinical PhD. I find that the majority of counseling psych PhD programs emphasize research as most as many clinical programs. Overall, there's not a ton of difference between the two programs.

I hoped this helped a little.

 

[pengy]

.

 

[50960]

Both are good degrees, but counselling is not clinical psychology. Both will get you the psychologist license, but training predicts practice, and counsellors counsel (listen, support, handhold), while clinicians treat disorders with research proven interventions. Both are needed at the PhD level...decide which you choose to be.

 

[Mell-Dogg]

Psyclops,
The issue I have is: The website says this program is an excellent option for students looking to continue on toward the doctorate, yet there is little/no research involved in the curriculum. This is what has me confused about Counseling PhD programs and what they're looking for. Since it's VERY clear what Clinical PhD/PsyD programs want.

Also: One of my professors is telling me that accepting this Counseling Psych MS offer, guarantees I will never get into a Clinical PhD program (dont care)...but she had no idea if Clinical PsyD programs would view an MS in Counseling as negatively...any thoughts?

Lastly: Is a PhD in Counseling a better option than what I thought I wanted all along, a PsyD in Clinical?

Jon

Regarding the MS counseling program, it is possible that the faculty you work with would be willing to get you the necessary research experience. If you did get an MS in counseling, it is very likely that you could then pursue a PhD in counseling or the PsyD, but (unfortunately) it would less likely that you could move on to the clinical PhD. I think that the one thing that makes the PhD in Counseling more advantageous than the PsyD is that, with the counseling PhD, you're not really closing the door to any career options. You can do pretty much everything a clinical PhD can do. With the PsyD, however, your career options are MUCH more limited.

 

[mpino]

Regarding the MS counseling program, it is possible that the faculty you work with would be willing to get you the necessary research experience. If you did get an MS in counseling, it is very likely that you could then pursue a PhD in counseling or the PsyD, but (unfortunately) it would less likely that you could move on to the clinical PhD. I think that the one thing that makes the PhD in Counseling more advantageous than the PsyD is that, with the counseling PhD, you're not really closing the door to any career options. You can do pretty much everything a clinical PhD can do. With the PsyD, however, your career options are MUCH more limited.

Correct me if I am wrong but i think its a misconception that getting a PSYD limits job opportunities...I can only speak for the northeast, but I know many professors at reputable colleges that have PSY D's i think the field is changing

 

[50960]

I have never ran into a problem because I have a PsyD.

 

[MsAnaF]

hi, i also am finishing my MS in counseling, and i was accepted into several clinical psych programs for this fall. i think that if you know that you want to do clinical, not counseling ph.d., you should get your masters in clinical or experimental or general psych. i wasn't sure, that is why i got the masters in counseling. clinical psych faculty may not look favorably upon counseling master's degrees (it won't HELP you), but i certainly don't think it will HURT you, as long as you have an explanation of why you are switching from counseling to clinical, and if it sounds like you have a good understanding of the differences.
about the research, my counsleling MS program did NOT offer much in the way of research opportunities. i had to really bug professors to get on research projects and publications. i also work as an RA in a research lab not associated with my master's program, so that probably helped get me into clinical phd programs.
so my point is, if you are using the master's degree to eventually get into a clinical phd/psyd program, you are better off getting a masters in clinical, not counseling.

 

[Psyclops]

I would say the best would be to get the MS in general/experimental. Here is why. One, it shows committees a true comitment to research, like I've said before everyone and their cat has an interest in doing clinical which is why they can be selective. To that end you should do a program that has a true thesis, one that requires a new piece of research be performed. Two, most general MS programs will give you the oportunity (if not require you) to take much of your breadth requirements. These are courses like statistics, social, developmental, cognitive, and biological basis of behavior. PhD programs in clinical (I think all types actually) require that you take these, and these are generally the courses they let you transfer. Tehy won't let you transfer core courses like psychopathology, or assessment. It has been my experience that they will then waive your masters thesis requirement that was part of the PhD. So, you enter two years later than you hoped, but you will ahve the masters completed, you will be well versed in research methods and the daily tasks required to search for literature searches, advising undergrads, running subjects, and you most likely will have transfered many of your breadth requirements so you can then focus almost entirely on clinical, and for a semester or two you will be ahead of your classmates in terms of time management skills etc. It's something to think about, I know those discussing this might not be as interested in research or clinical programs.

 

[Jon4PsyD]

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. I talked to the head of a couple PsyD and Counseling PhD departments via email these past couple of days and all have told me Pace has a very good Counseling Psych MS program/curriculum and would look upon it as a strength when reviewing my application for their Counseling PhD/PsyD programs in 2 years. I feel SO relieved after hearing it from a couple of different schools

Im still waiting on Clinical MA's from Hartford/UMass but it almost seems like Pace would be a great chocie even if Im accepted at those schools.

Thanks again everyone
Jon

 

[clinpsychgirl]

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. I talked to the head of a couple PsyD and Counseling PhD departments via email these past couple of days and all have told me Pace has a very good Counseling Psych MS program/curriculum and would look upon it as a strength when reviewing my application for their Counseling PhD/PsyD programs in 2 years. I feel SO relieved after hearing it from a couple of different schools

Im still waiting on Clinical MA's from Hartford/UMass but it almost seems like Pace would be a great chocie even if Im accepted at those schools.

Thanks again everyone
Jon

Congrats