PhD Counseling Psychology Insecurity

[PsychQEH]

Hi All,

I've been reflecting on this for a few months and, with my cohort not being of much support, decided it would be helpful to ask for feedback from everyone in this community. My program is a Counseling Psych PhD and, while I am thrilled and honored to be working towards this degree and feel passionate about the foundations of Counseling Psychology, I can't help but feel some stigma around Counseling Psych PhDs versus Clinical Psych PhDs.

I applied to both types of programs during my application cycle, but I've been noticing that clinical psych faculty are able to secure more funding and, from what it appears, are in higher demand for post-docs and positions post-grad. Additionally, some internships that I would be interested in applying to are only looking exclusively for clinical psych phd/psyd students. My program is APA accredited so I'm not worried about securing an internship when that time comes, but I'm concerned that my training opportunities are much more limited compared to clinical psych folks.

Thinking back to your grad school days, does anyone have insight into this? Or folks who sit on hiring committees, does it matter at that point if the degree is in clinical or counseling psychology?

Thank you!

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[foreverbull]

I can only speak from my experiences as a proud counseling psychologist, but my perception is that there is a lot of misinformation on the internet and even in textbooks about the differences between counseling and clinical psychology, and a fallacy that counseling psychology is “therapy-lite,” which seems to have led to snubbing and discrimination in some “clinical” settings. The programs are equally competitive per APA data (and equally rigorous), but because counseling psych has fewer programs overall in the U.S. and a different foundation (and is sometimes housed in a School of Education), it is definitely misunderstood and looked down upon by some sites, particularly hospitals and more medical-related sites, from what I’ve heard. A colleague was barred from applying to a certain east coast hospital internship site due to simply being a counseling psych student, which I found infuriating.

Here’s a thread I posted about counseling psychology misinformation you might resonate with: Counseling Psychology Misinformation

I worked alongside clinical psych folks in my grad program and they had research jobs, whereas my colleagues and I had office/teaching assistantships. I do think that it will vary by individual program, but their department definitely had more funding because they were researching health psych stuff (smoking cessation, etc.), and had grants from different places, whereas we were researching multicultural issues, which did not have as many funding opportunities. We had a little research getting funded, but not much compared to our clinical counterparts.

Professionally (past internship), I haven’t seen discrimination in my metro area when it comes to securing jobs at the licensure level. Although counseling folks are more rare, I feel like my degree was equally valued professionally once I was licensed, and when I run into counseling psych folks, there’s an unspoken kind of camaraderie because there’s so few of us. But yeah, unfortunately there’s some snubbing and unfair treatment happening in pockets of certain professional settings. However, in the settings I’ve worked in, I haven’t personally experienced it. If I’d pursued medical settings, I might have a different story.

That said, I would love to hear from clinical folks who were told/taught that counseling wasn’t as rigorous or competitive, because I’d like to know if clinical programs are proliferating these myths in addition to the internet.

 

[erg923]

That said, I would love to hear from clinical folks who were told/taught that counseling wasn’t as rigorous or competitive, because I’d like to know if clinical programs are proliferating these myths in addition to the internet.

I was always told that you people have the pox and not to associate.

 

[WisNeuro]

That said, I would love to hear from clinical folks who were told/taught that counseling wasn’t as rigorous or competitive, because I’d like to know if clinical programs are proliferating these myths in addition to the internet.

I think it's very context dependent. We had a counseling psych program over in the Dept of Ed at my grad institution. The students did fine in prac placements for therapy services, but the few that wanted neuro experience were rarely able to get good pracs as our clinical program and another one in the same city had strong neuro programs and generally crowded out the VA and big AMC pracs in town. So, equal footing on therapy, but they just did not have the background or access to good neuro assessment training in that context.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Hi All,

I've been reflecting on this for a few months and, with my cohort not being of much support, decided it would be helpful to ask for feedback from everyone in this community. My program is a Counseling Psych PhD and, while I am thrilled and honored to be working towards this degree and feel passionate about the foundations of Counseling Psychology, I can't help but feel some stigma around Counseling Psych PhDs versus Clinical Psych PhDs.

I applied to both types of programs during my application cycle, but I've been noticing that clinical psych faculty are able to secure more funding and, from what it appears, are in higher demand for post-docs and positions post-grad. Additionally, some internships that I would be interested in applying to are only looking exclusively for clinical psych phd/psyd students. My program is APA accredited so I'm not worried about securing an internship when that time comes, but I'm concerned that my training opportunities are much more limited compared to clinical psych folks.

Thinking back to your grad school days, does anyone have insight into this? Or folks who sit on hiring committees, does it matter at that point if the degree is in clinical or counseling psychology?

Thank you!

I think there are a few factors at work. Some of these observations (*'d) are based on an article I have out in review right now. Others are my personal observation.
1*. Counseling psych folk tend to self select into therapy as a primary focus of their careers at different rate that clinical. This is particularly pronounced because a majority of the assessment heavy specialty tracks come from a traditional clinical/AMC training. Regardless of that, the skew is notable and clinical expect assessment to play a more frequent role in their future careers.
2*. Skill of counseling students at assessment interpretation tasks (at least so far as personality assessment with one instrument) are not notably different from their clinical counterparts
3. Assessment conferences are predominantly clinical, and folks from those programs are the ones responsible for research and development of the instruments with very few counseling having a seat at the table (e.g., RPAS in Toledo, MMPI-2 in Minnesota, RF at Kent, etc). It's not that we aren't welcome, we just don't go.
4. Clinical psych devotes a division section (Section IX) to assessment specifically. Counseling does not. In an era enamored by increased testing emphasis (e.g., take a look at the general perception of how to assess ADHD as an example), this just puts us out of a major movement across a variety of diagnostic problems that are increasingly focused on (dementia, tbi, etc etc).
5. Counseling psych did a good job differentiating itself in 1964 with the Greystone conference. Unfortunatley, it has done a poor job adapting to the changing healthcare system and, as a result, many of the key elements that made us unique and useful then are used as indicators (either by ourselves or by others) as us not being ready to do the same level of clinical work (e.g., counseling psychology treats normal levels of function). I think this can't be understated. Our self-developed identity has not evolved in a manner that is consistent with what we frequently do.
6. Counseling centers often refer higher acuity cases out to department clinics. Some of this is because of the student body population being served, but the other part is the self-held myth that they aren't equipped to handle those cases (but somehow a different on campus clinic is). Given that counseling centers are a critical experience in most training tracks for CPSY degrees, this ingrains this belief and furthers the #5 idea into trainees.
7. Theoretical differences in what constitutes evidence of treatment effectiveness (re: RCT v common factors) provide a framework for developing clinicians to appear less 'scientific' based on the prevailing trend of viewing RCT as the best way to study treatment. I've still not seen an RCT control for working alliance to determine the differences though.... Just saying.