PhD Counselor Education (CACREP) or PhD Counseling Psych (APA)?

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rachelw

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I am comparing PhD Counseling Psychology vs. PhD Counselor Education. Hope to get feedback from you guys!

My background: 35-year-old, married, work in non-psych field, have BA and MA but they are NOT in psychology (in humanities, anthropology, literature, languages…). High GPA & GRE. Ultimate goal: PhD. Career: To work in a University Counseling Center, teach undergrad or grad classes; possibly have a private practice on the side.

Since I have no Psych background, I plan to enter a Master’s program first. I may get my Master’s in Counseling, or at least enter the program to complete some graduate-level work (so that I have some higher-level psych/counseling courses in my transcript) before applying to PhD.

Whether I complete my MA or not depends on whether my eventual goal is Counselor Ed or Counseling Psych PhD. Please let me know what you think:

PhD in Counseling Psychology (APA-accredited)

Pros:
1. More career options than PhD Counselor Education /LPC: Psychologists can do assessments.
2. Most staff at University Counseling Centers seems to be PhD in Counseling Psych. (Can PhD Counselor Ed folks work in university counseling centers?)
3. Able to teach at university-level, undergrad or grad.
4. Respected as a “Psychologist” not “Counselor”
5. Able to enter the doctoral program as non-Psych major plus some Psych/Counseling undergrad/graduate work. MA in Counseling is not required.
6. PhD students are funded (average $18K a year?)
7. In private practice: Able to see patients with insurance (Madicare, Medicaid). LPC can't bill Medicare.

Cons:
1. More Time Investment: 5-6 years for PhD (regardless of your Master’s), plus 1 year internship = Total 6-7 years.
2. The orientation seems to be very quantitative (I come from a qualitative background and I don’t have so much confidence in statistics or quantitative stuff. though I can learn...)
3. CACREP programs in future will only hire CACREP PhDs in Counselor Ed? So PhD Counseling Psych will not be hired? Hence reduce job opportunities (?).
4. APA internships are hard to find / get into.
5. Increasingly poor job market for psychologists (???) because of the competition with Master’s-level therapists?

PhD in Counselor Education (CACREP-accredited)

Pros:
1. Shorter Time: 3 years for PhD; 2 years for LPC = Total time: 5 years.
2. Easy to find a job after graduation; abundant academic jobs (compared to PhD Counseling Psych?)
3. I like the more “qualitative” aspect of the program. Less quantitative than Counseling Psych.
4. I like the hybrid program: lots of clinical/human focus, some teaching and supervision, some research. PhD Counseling Psych seems to be strongly research-driven, and offers less flexibility.
5. Still able to do one-on-one therapy as LPC. (Though the pay might be lower than licensed psychologists?)

Cons:
1. Required a completed Master’s degree before starting the doctoral degree. Some requires a couple years experience as a therapist too.
2. PhD students are usually not funded besides having tuition waiver (?). That means $$$ from my own pocket.
3. Limit job opportunities to academia: Only able to teach Master’s level counseling students at CACREP programs.
4. Do PhDs in Counselor Ed. / LPC get hired to work in university counseling centers?? (Seems to me that universities tend to hire Counseling Psych folks?)
5. LPCs are not as respected as psychologists.
6. LPCs can’t bill Medicare.

Feel free to add to the list, comment, or correct my mistakes, etc. Thank you!

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Thanks for the link! I posted a reply on that thread too (though that thread was created a while ago and has been inactive). Just want to get as many ppl's advice and opinions as possible. Thanks!
 
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I keep hearing folks say "more abundant jobs than counseling psych". Less competition, perhaps, if you go for a position in academia. A majority in counselor ed or counseling psych will NOT get an academic position. There just aren't enough jobs to go around. Outside of academia, I see (perhaps I am wrong) far fewer opportunities for counselor ed as compared to counseling psych. What can counselor ed do outside of academia? Work as an LPC and/or do counseling? What else? Not as many options I do not think as compared to counseling psych.

I am comparing PhD Counseling Psychology vs. PhD Counselor Education. Hope to get feedback from you guys!

My background: 35-year-old, married, work in non-psych field, have BA and MA but they are NOT in psychology (in humanities, anthropology, literature, languages…). High GPA & GRE. Ultimate goal: PhD. Career: To work in a University Counseling Center, teach undergrad or grad classes; possibly have a private practice on the side.

Since I have no Psych background, I plan to enter a Master’s program first. I may get my Master’s in Counseling, or at least enter the program to complete some graduate-level work (so that I have some higher-level psych/counseling courses in my transcript) before applying to PhD.

Whether I complete my MA or not depends on whether my eventual goal is Counselor Ed or Counseling Psych PhD. Please let me know what you think:

PhD in Counseling Psychology (APA-accredited)

Pros:
1. More career options than PhD Counselor Education /LPC: Psychologists can do assessments.
2. Most staff at University Counseling Centers seems to be PhD in Counseling Psych. (Can PhD Counselor Ed folks work in university counseling centers?)
3. Able to teach at university-level, undergrad or grad.
4. Respected as a “Psychologist” not “Counselor”
5. Able to enter the doctoral program as non-Psych major plus some Psych/Counseling undergrad/graduate work. MA in Counseling is not required.
6. PhD students are funded (average $18K a year?)
7. In private practice: Able to see patients with insurance (Madicare, Medicaid). LPC can't bill Medicare.

Cons:
1. More Time Investment: 5-6 years for PhD (regardless of your Master’s), plus 1 year internship = Total 6-7 years.
2. The orientation seems to be very quantitative (I come from a qualitative background and I don’t have so much confidence in statistics or quantitative stuff. though I can learn...)
3. CACREP programs in future will only hire CACREP PhDs in Counselor Ed? So PhD Counseling Psych will not be hired? Hence reduce job opportunities (?).
4. APA internships are hard to find / get into.
5. Increasingly poor job market for psychologists (???) because of the competition with Master’s-level therapists?

PhD in Counselor Education (CACREP-accredited)

Pros:
1. Shorter Time: 3 years for PhD; 2 years for LPC = Total time: 5 years.
2. Easy to find a job after graduation; abundant academic jobs (compared to PhD Counseling Psych?)
3. I like the more “qualitative” aspect of the program. Less quantitative than Counseling Psych.
4. I like the hybrid program: lots of clinical/human focus, some teaching and supervision, some research. PhD Counseling Psych seems to be strongly research-driven, and offers less flexibility.
5. Still able to do one-on-one therapy as LPC. (Though the pay might be lower than licensed psychologists?)

Cons:
1. Required a completed Master’s degree before starting the doctoral degree. Some requires a couple years experience as a therapist too.
2. PhD students are usually not funded besides having tuition waiver (?). That means $$$ from my own pocket.
3. Limit job opportunities to academia: Only able to teach Master’s level counseling students at CACREP programs.
4. Do PhDs in Counselor Ed. / LPC get hired to work in university counseling centers?? (Seems to me that universities tend to hire Counseling Psych folks?)
5. LPCs are not as respected as psychologists.
6. LPCs can’t bill Medicare.

Feel free to add to the list, comment, or correct my mistakes, etc. Thank you!
 
Interesting observations. Thanks.

Indeed, if PhD Counselor Ed folks end up working as LPC, what's the point of working so long and hard for the PhD? The whole point of getting a PhD is so that you get to work and get paid beyond the level of Master's therapists.

But wouldn't CACREP regulation increase the job market/ job opportunities for Counseling Education PhDs (and conversely, shrink the academic market for Counseling Psychology PhDs)? Meaning I envision academic jobs go to Counselor Ed folks.

I do want to teach in addition to doing therapy. Still thinking about the above 2 options.
 
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Indeed, if PhD Counselor Ed folks end up working as LPC, what's the point of working so long and hard for the PhD? The whole point of getting a PhD is so that you get to work and get paid beyond the level of Master's therapists.

Ah, but the CE PhD, as I understand it, is solely an academic degree, just like most other PhDs. To think of the PhD as a way to excel in clinical work is a clinical/counseling framework. So many other disciplines have PhDs in order to pursue academic work (not applied work). I think your way of thinking about this will influence what you ultimately decide to do.

But wouldn't CACREP regulation increase the job market/ job opportunities for Counseling Education PhDs (and conversely, shrink the academic market for Counseling Psychology PhDs)? Meaning I envision academic jobs go to Counselor Ed folks.

They are two different disciplines--psychology vs. counseling. It is my understanding that counseling psych PhDs are likely to find academic work in psychology programs, while CE PhDs are going to head for CACREP accredited counseling programs.

I do want to teach in addition to doing therapy. Still thinking about the above 2 options.

Perhaps thinking about what kind of therapy and what kind of teaching you want to do would be best? Therapy and teaching are very broad fields. A PhD in counseling psych will be heavy on diagnostics and assessment, in addition to therapy. Also, the focus of the training (both teaching and clinical) will be different in the target population. I would assume that you would probably work more with undergrads with a PhD in counseling psych while an PhD in counselor ed would be graduate-level. Sweeping generalization, I know, but are counselors being trained at the undergraduate level? No. Hence my assumption. Don't know if that makes a difference, but something to explore...

It is also my understanding that CE PhDs are more 'mature,' as in you will need a full masters-level license (LCPC) to even enter the program. I think you'll probably also need work experience, which in some ways is a given with that license.
 
Counselor Education programs are geared to prepare Master's level Counselors/Clinicians to be educators, clincians, and researchers. Doctoral programs typically require that applicants not only complete a masters in counseling (or a related field), but also have post masters experiences. The reason for this requirment is because you as a CE you will be teaching and supervising future counselors and its important to have experience in the field before teaching it. How can you supervise or teach someone if you don't have professional and clinical experience? This plays in part because pursing a doc in CE involves several practicums and internships as both a clinician in the university's counseling center, school, or community (depending on your track or experience as a mental health/rehab/school counselor). CE students also supervise Master's level counseling students at the individual and group level as well as part of their training in counselor education.

CE programs are heavy on research as well. Research any top teir CE phd program and you will find an incredibly high rate of research and publication. You can plan on really beefing up your publications and presenations as a part of these programs as many of the faculty and programs have a high rate of scholarly productivity.

I'm not sure where you saw the funding numbers because like many phd's, CE students also have competitive stipends ranging from $12,000 to nearly $19000, and that's not including full benefits and academic scholarships.

Job market is pretty open as well, again not sure where you got your information from. Counselor Educators can be be, and are employed by university counseling centers, private/group practice, school districts, communitry/non-profit agency's, counseling departments and counseling psych departments. They can teach and supervise undergraduate, masters, and doctoral level students.

It really depends on your experience, and how you want to identify yourself. Last year I was unsure about which way to go, Counselor Ed/Counseling Psych, and after researching both I just found that CE was a better fit for me.

I have a counseling background and I wanted to continue to teach, research, practice, become a licensed practioner, and accreddited clinical supervisor. I have been a member of the American Counseling Association (ACA) for a number of years and just feel that CE, personally was a better fit for me.

I'm currently interviewing at several top tier R1 CE doc programs. Feel free to message me if you have questions or want to talk about it more, I'd be glad to help.
 
What sorts of CE programs would you consider "top tier"? Do these sorts of programs all provide funding and stipends in a similar fashion to better psych PhD programs?
 
Regarding CE - I know several in a solid program right now. There funding is decent. However, a few things I would say (a) there are people who go directly from a masters in counseling into CE doctoral program (I know multiple folks) (b) none that I know were involved in extensive research (c) all of the folks I know or have heard about are completing qualitative based research. I don't want to knock that, but at the same time, it is not the same to me as the amount of knowledge and skill that is required for good quantitative research. And several of the CE folks have specifically said they went into CE in part because they "hate stats" (and one person who was open told me they questioned their competitiveness for a counseling psych program). I don't want to bash the CE area, but I really do wonder how CE are more qualified to teach masters level counselors than counseling psychs (and I'm not in a counseling psych program, but still wonder).
 
Regarding CE - I know several in a solid program right now. There funding is decent. However, a few things I would say (a) there are people who go directly from a masters in counseling into CE doctoral program (I know multiple folks) (b) none that I know were involved in extensive research (c) all of the folks I know or have heard about are completing qualitative based research. I don't want to knock that, but at the same time, it is not the same to me as the amount of knowledge and skill that is required for good quantitative research. And several of the CE folks have specifically said they went into CE in part because they "hate stats" (and one person who was open told me they questioned their competitiveness for a counseling psych program). I don't want to bash the CE area, but I really do wonder how CE are more qualified to teach masters level counselors than counseling psychs (and I'm not in a counseling psych program, but still wonder).
That is very interesting. While I absolutely understand the merits of quantitative research (and I do not hate stats), personally I'd prefer qualitative (and love philosophical psych, therefore I'm also considering Duquesne University's Clinical Psych as it is highly qualitative and philosophical - "human science" approach.)

Anyway that's my personal preference. So if what you say is true, (for me at least) one more plus point for CE.

As for (b) CE don't involve extensive research - I came across Penn State's CE (http://www.ed.psu.edu/educ/epcse/counselor-education/ph-d-program-in-counselor-education) and it looks like they focus on scholarly publication as well as other typical CE activities. I have no direct knowledge about this program though. If anyone of you know exactly what sort of research CE folks do, qualitative or quantitative, and how that distinguishes from Counseling Psych research, it would be immensely helpful to me.

I agree with your last point, and I think it's probably a turf war between CACREP and APA like some have pointed out.
 
Very glad to hear from NYRangers1 and aagma1 that CE provides decent funding for doctoral students. I read from another thread that CP was an obvious choice because of its funding. Also heard from some that APA is financially more capable in funding research compared to CACREP. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/member.php?u=447064
 
I am curious to find out what CE programs have a record of providing tuition remission and adequate assistantships, fellowships, etc. not only early in doctoral study but all the way through the dissertation stage. Thanks in advance for sharing!
 
What sorts of CE programs would you consider "top tier"? Do these sorts of programs all provide funding and stipends in a similar fashion to better psych PhD programs?

University of North Carolina-Greensboro
Old Dominion University
Penn State University
Syracuse University

Regarding CE - I know several in a solid program right now. There funding is decent. However, a few things I would say (a) there are people who go directly from a masters in counseling into CE doctoral program (I know multiple folks) (b) none that I know were involved in extensive research (c) all of the folks I know or have heard about are completing qualitative based research. I don't want to knock that, but at the same time, it is not the same to me as the amount of knowledge and skill that is required for good quantitative research. And several of the CE folks have specifically said they went into CE in part because they "hate stats" (and one person who was open told me they questioned their competitiveness for a counseling psych program). I don't want to bash the CE area, but I really do wonder how CE are more qualified to teach masters level counselors than counseling psychs (and I'm not in a counseling psych program, but still wonder).

To get an idea of research trends within Counselor Education, I suggest looking into the archives of "Counselor Education and Supervision," the journal published by the Association for Counselor Education and Supervision (ACES). This journal is the main journal in the field of Counselor Education and could offer anyone considering counselor education a great resource for understanding the literature.

I would take the comments of the "hate stats" individuals with a grain of salt, those are the perspectives of a few individuals. You'd be wrong to assume that those within CE are any less statistically prepared/intelligent/savy than professionals in related fields.

CE are not "more qualified" than counseling psychs to teach masters students, the two paths have just simply begun to solidify and establish their own identities and philosophies (counseling and psychology).

I am curious to find out what CE programs have a record of providing tuition remission and adequate assistantships, fellowships, etc. not only early in doctoral study but all the way through the dissertation stage. Thanks in advance for sharing!

As far as tuition and assistantships, some CE programs offer 3 years (length of program) of tuition waiver + guaranteed assistantship within the program, others offer assistantship within the CE program for first year + tuition waiver, then placement in assistantship throughout the university in the following years + full tuition waiver. In programs I've considered, I haven't come across a CE program that didn't offer a competitive assistantship/tuition package with programs in similar fields.
 
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I find it amazing how some can comment and not be familiar with the programs. I am a current PhD student in counselor Ed and I can tell you for a fact that not all of us are seeking futures in acadamia. Credibility comes with the PhD and though there does seem to be some veracity in a psychology degree versus a counseling degree... ultimately the question is: what do you want to do??? There is a distinction between counseling and psychology. Counseling is more about the relationship with the client...

CACREP standards are begining to limit non-counseling degreed students (such as counseling psych) into their teaching programs BUT you can still obtain a teaching position in a program. According to new CACREP standards you can not just be part of the core faculty. You can still be full time faculty though. At minimum, 3 core faculty members need to be present in a CACREP school but other degrees can also be part of the faculty (as long as they do not outnuber core faculty)

The counseling profession is starting to grow and further develop its identity. Tricare has now approved LPCs to be billed (but you must come from a CACREP school unless you get grandfathered in)... Medicare will be soon to follow. So concerns in that area dissipate.

I admire counseling psychologists as they do get the best of both worlds HOWEVER at the same time, I feel sorry for them as the counseling professioin grows, they are being pushed out of our profession... and also do not completly fit within the proffesional identity of psychology...

There are pros and cons to either degree, but back to my original quesion: what do you want to do? If you are interested in directing a counseling clinic in campus... either degree will suffice, PENDING ON THE UNIVERSITY AND THEIR OWN BELIEFS. AT my univeristy, we have three clinics: a counseling center (run by psychologists), a family clinic (run by counseling students) and an addiction clinic (counseling clinic)

If you are looking for prestige, honestly the PhD will suffice. To increase prestige, you then go to a "fancy" school. In the counseling and psychology field, if you are practicing and seeing students, or are a director or or supervisor... the question rarely is: are you a counselor or a psychologist. Instead, people ask: do you have your PhD and what school did you go to.

Also, there are ample funding opportunities, pending on the school. My whole tuition is covererd (which is 20,000 a year) plus I get 10,000 in my pocket for 20 hours of EASY work (with summers off & 1 month for Xmas)

If you do choose counseling, my biggest recomendation is that you go with a CACREP school...

Wish you luck in your endeavors....
 
Docstudent79- Thank you so much for your input. It's great to know that Counselor Education doctoral programs provide ample funding just like Counseling Psychology. Do you mind saying what university you're in? Sounds like it is pretty normal for most CE programs to give this generous amount of funding..

Also, in terms of prestige you mentioned, where can I find the ranking of the Counselor Education programs? There are so many CE doctoral programs out there. Thanks to NYRangers1 for listing the 4 good schools. How do I sort out all these CE doctoral schools in terms of research interests (I like humanistic-exstential), amount of funding (hoping for guaranteed 3 years), location (I'd prefer major cities to rural), etc...? For psychology there's the "Insider's Guide for Clinical & Counseling Psych." For counseling, is there such a resource out there?

I am applying to MS in Counseling (Marriage and Family Therapy emphasis) now. Though I know it will be a while before I get into PhD, I'd still very much appreciate the information as it gives me a clearer mental road map, guiding me to where I'd like to go to eventually... Thank you so much!
 
I admire counseling psychologists as they do get the best of both worlds HOWEVER at the same time, I feel sorry for them as the counseling professioin grows, they are being pushed out of our profession... and also do not completly fit within the proffesional identity of psychology...

No.

If you are looking for prestige, honestly the PhD will suffice. To increase prestige, you then go to a "fancy" school. In the counseling and psychology field, if you are practicing and seeing students, or are a director or or supervisor... the question rarely is: are you a counselor or a psychologist. Instead, people ask: do you have your PhD and what school did you go to.

Almost nobody questions me about my credentials now, as an M.Ed LAPC. However, it is ethically responsible to educate your clients as to what scope of practice one has.

I don't see the point in getting a PhD and only being licensed at the Master's level (as I understand it CE's are licensed as LPCs, at least in my state). It would also get old to say that yes, I have a PhD, but no, I'm not a psychologist. For me it already gets old to say "I'm not Dr. _____, just Mr. _______". I am not sure of the legal ramifications of referring to yourself as Dr. when practicing in mental health if you are not a psychologist. I know in my state you can't practice as a Dr. without the accompanying license (i.e. psychologist, MD, etc). I would doubt it if LPCs can call themselves Dr. in a practice/clinical setting without violating the laws , though I am not sure.

Additionally, I am not sure if CE's are able to perform the same level of assessments for clients that psychologists are (i.e. learning disabilities, personality assessments, etc) which is a potentially lucrative market (from what I've been told).
 
Counseling is more about the relationship with the client...

they are being pushed out of our profession... and also do not completly fit within the proffesional identity of psychology...


Thank you, zensouth. These two statements are false.


I don't see the point in getting a PhD and only being licensed at the Master's level (as I understand it CE's are licensed as LPCs, at least in my state). It would also get old to say that yes, I have a PhD, but no, I'm not a psychologist. For me it already gets old to say "I'm not Dr. _____, just Mr. _______". I am not sure of the legal ramifications of referring to yourself as Dr. when practicing in mental health if you are not a psychologist. I know in my state you can't practice as a Dr. without the accompanying license (i.e. psychologist, MD, etc). I would doubt it if LPCs can call themselves Dr. in a practice/clinical setting without violating the laws , though I am not sure.

I tend to agree with you. It's misleading, although it's not completely unethical because the doctorate is related to the work the clinician is doing--unlike, say, a counselor who has a PhD in biology or something. However, I don't think the average client knows the difference between the scope of practice for a licensed psychologist (which a counseling psychology PhD would be) and a counselor. They're both "therapists" and they both do therapy, but a psychologist has a much wider scope with a license to perform assessment/testing. I do agree that it is very important for psychologists and counselors to explain their training and scopes to their clients.
 
One of the biggest differences I see between a CE PhD and a psychology PhD or PsyD is the kind of training you will receive for conducting therapy. Most CE programs train in a generalist/ecclectic model of therapy, though I do know of at least one program that (at the master's level, I don't know about doctoral, gives the option for training in an ecclectic or Adlerian focus.) In A CE program there may be a course on psychopathology, family therapy, and all the counseling theories, but actual counseling practice training is generally not in a specific modality. With a psychology doctoral degree on the other hand, depending on the program, there will be the opportunity for training in one or more specific theoretical orientations (e.g. psychodynamic, CBT, humanistic). So, I think one question to consider is, are you more interested in doing counseling or psychotherapy? Both an LPC and licensed psychologist can do DSM assessment, but, unless you are fortunate enough to find an internship as a CE student that will offer training in psychotherapy or specific therapy modalities, you will likely not have psychotherapy training in a CE program. Conversely, I believe there are psychology doctoral programs that also train from a more ecclectic approach, and those would tend to be Counseling Psychology programs, though I have seen variences in the kinds of training Counseling Psychology programs offer in therapy training also - but in general, I think therapy training is more in depth in psychology as opposed to counselor educ..

Outside of that, the other factor I think that differs in both kinds of programs is the extent of training in formal assessment. CE prorams will give training in assessment, but there will be a limit to it, whereas psych programs (again depending on the program) tend to offer much more extensive training to do formal assessment (e.g. intelligence, personality, and cognitive assessment), however I am actually not clear on the extent pf formal assement a CE PhD can conduct; maybe somenoe else could clarify that who knows.

The other factors: ability to do research, teaching, direct a program, ot clinical work I think are ample through both kinds of programs.

I think one more thing is a major consideration: Where do you want to teach or practice. E.g. College and university counseling clinics usually want psychologists. College and university career centers usually hire CACREP grads. CACREP masters/doctoral training programs are only going to hire CE grads, I'm not sure whether psychology training programs would hire CE grads but I would doubut it - someone else who knows can answer that one. Also, on the federal government level, there are few opportunities for licensed mental health and rehabilitation counselors, but plenty of opportunities for psychologists (and social workers). Community counseling clinics will hire a combination of practitiners.

(Then, there the MSW which will give you the ability to do psychotherapy, though I have heard complaints from some soc. work students that they received a less clinically focused training than CE students....so really am kind of foggy on field of SW - but I do know that many social workers are doing therapy, and there are lots of job openings and will continue to be.)

I hope some of these thoughts are helpful.
 
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One of the biggest differences I see between a CE PhD and a psychology PhD or PsyD is the kind of training you will receive for conducting therapy.
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So, I think one question to consider is, are you more interested in doing counseling or psychotherapy?

You seem to suggest a distinction between counseling vs. psychotherapy, and that CE is more trained to do general, eclectic "counseling" while psychologists are trained to conduct specific "psychotherapy."

My understanding is that most graduates from the MSW or MA/MS in Counseling programs (LPCs, MFTs in CA, etc.) get further training in psychotherapy AFTER they are out there in the field. Their education only provide them with the basics. They further develop their professional identity by taking on psychoanalytic training, Jungian, CBT, etc... from outside training institutes. Both LPC and LCSW are equally able to conduct *psychotherapy* - tell me if I'm wrong.

If Master's-level practitioners are able to conduct psychotherapy, why wouldn't doctoral CE be able to do it? I guess what you're referring to is the specificity, the in-depth training on the kind of modalities used, etc... And you mean psychologist training is more specific and in-depth. But if that's the case, wouldn't an LPC (either master or doctoral) (or MSW) be able to get that kind of specific in-depth training OUTSIDE the academia?

Regarding employment in college/university counseling clinics - NYRanger1 says that CE is equally employeable in university counseling centers, while js1221 suggests that these positions usually go to licensed psychologists. I saw this interview with a mental health provider in an university clinic setting on Youtube as I was researching online: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18vLjdgsuq4

Any comments on that? I'd say that that's the kind of job I'm hoping to get eventually. Would a PhD in CE get me there?
 
In my experience, and that is as someone who is a Counseling Psych PhD student, I have only met people that have graduated from Counseling Psych PhD programs (and one Clinical Psych PhD program) who worked in University Counselor Centers. I'm not saying that people who graduate from CE programs CAN'T work in a UCC, although they don't usually employ MA level practitioners, just that I haven't met one. It's similar to Clinical Psych PhDs, it is more rare that they would get hired in such an environment.
 
Quote: "If Master's-level practitioners are able to conduct psychotherapy, why wouldn't doctoral CE be able to do it? I guess what you're referring to is the specificity, the in-depth training on the kind of modalities used, etc... And you mean psychologist training is more specific and in-depth. But if that's the case, wouldn't an LPC (either master or doctoral) (or MSW) be able to get that kind of specific in-depth training OUTSIDE the academia?"

-Yes, I think that in general, if CE graduates (master's or doctoral) want to be trained in and do psychotherapy, it will have to be either in a field experience/internship or in another academic program. This is not to say that LPC's, LMHC's, LCPC's, etc. with a master's or doctorate can't do counseling or therapy, and make clinical DSM diagnoses, just that your traning will have been more from a positivistic, generalist, ecclectic stance from a CE program - in my opinion - not all would agree - and I ma speaking from my experience - after having a master's from a CACREP program (dual degree) in rehab and commuity counseling, I do not have the training in psychotherpay that I want, so I am considering either a PHD or PsyD in psychology, or a psychoanalytic 2-yr program.
 
replying to correct false info. I gave:

"CACREP masters/doctoral training programs are only going to hire CE grads" - false.

In fact, CACREP programs do hire psychologists - I forgot :) that one of my profs in my counselor ed program was a psychologist - and I just spoke with a student in another CE program today and she said a couple of her profs are PsyD's. (CE programs do tend to hire CACREP grads, but it does appear psychologists are accepted in these programs sometimes also, and that is good.)
 
replying to correct false info. I gave:

"CACREP masters/doctoral training programs are only going to hire CE grads" - false.

In fact, CACREP programs do hire psychologists - I forgot :) that one of my profs in my counselor ed program was a psychologist - and I just spoke with a student in another CE program today and she said a couple of her profs are PsyD's. (CE programs do tend to hire CACREP grads, but it does appear psychologists are accepted in these programs sometimes also, and that is good.)

Just to add some more (admittedly anecdotal) weight to this, my M.S. is in Counseling through an education department and I had a couple of professors in my program that were psychologists as well.

I'llbe attending a Counseling Psychology PhD program beginning this fall and was questioned about the decision by some of my counselor Ed professors in my master's program. Basically, my reasoning for making the jump is that from what I've seen/researched, I will be able to do everything I could have done with a counselor Ed phd (including teaching in a CACREP program), but will have the added scope of practice as a psychologist. Seemed like the best fit for me.
 
http://www.cacrep.org/doc/Faculty requirements in the CACREP 2009 Standards May 2009.pdf

That link provides the info regarding CACREP departmental requirements for core faculty.

When deciding which route I wanted to take it came down to:
1. How do I identify myself professionally?
Answer: as a professional counselor

2. What do I want to do with this doctorate?
Answer: I want to teach and clinically supervise counselors at the masters and doctoral level. I want to continue to practice. I want to conduct research that can move the counseling profession forward.

3. Now, which doctorate is a best fit for me and help me best achieve those goals?
Answer: Counselor Ed

If you have questions with counselor Ed stuff, message me and I'll try to answer them as best I can!
 
CPsychYeah: I am in a similar situation as you... I am very curious about your experience in going from a CE master's to a psych doctorate, and your reasons for doing it are the same reaons I have. I am basically concerned about my chances of getting in to a psych doc program, but looks like you did it!. I think for rachelw the chances of getting in a master;s in counseling program is good. But what about a psych doctorate program, for those who do not have a psych background, or, for those who have a CACREP-related master's. I am going to post something in "what are my chances" about my own situation.
 
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CPsychYeah: I am in a similar situation as you... I am very curious about your experience in going from a CE master's to a psych doctorate, and your reasons for doing it are the same reaons I have. I am basically concerned about my chances of getting in to a psych doc program, but looks like you did it!. I think for rachelw the chances of getting in a master;s in counseling program is good. But what about a psych doctorate program, for those who do not have a psych background, or, for those who have a CACREP-related master's. I am going to post something in "what are my chances" about my own situation.

PMed you. :)
 
Currently, the only online school that has that accreditation for Counselor Education and Supervision is Regent University. It's pretty competitive to get into. Wondering if Walden University gets this accreditation what would be the views on the program.

Would getting the accreditation help legitimize this program?

It depends on who it is supposed to legitimize the profession to. To patients, they probably won't recognize any program whatsoever as different from another. To your colleagues, you'll look like someone that couldn't get into a "real" university. In fact, people in human service/helping professions will probably be seen as stunted if they didn't have in-person classes because they'll be missing a huge section of their interpersonal education.
 
In my experience, and that is as someone who is a Counseling Psych PhD student, I have only met people that have graduated from Counseling Psych PhD programs (and one Clinical Psych PhD program) who worked in University Counselor Centers. I'm not saying that people who graduate from CE programs CAN'T work in a UCC, although they don't usually employ MA level practitioners, just that I haven't met one. It's similar to Clinical Psych PhDs, it is more rare that they would get hired in such an environment.

How broad is your experience? Almost every college in Texas uses master's level counselors or CE grad students in their UCC's.
 
It would also get old to say that yes, I have a PhD, but no, I'm not a psychologist. For me it already gets old to say "I'm not Dr. _____, just Mr. _______".

I hear you there, then on referral forms and medical histories they'll list you as "Dr. _" even after you corrected them 20+ times.

I am not sure of the legal ramifications of referring to yourself as Dr. when practicing in mental health if you are not a psychologist. I know in my state you can't practice as a Dr. without the accompanying license (i.e. psychologist, MD, etc). I would doubt it if LPCs can call themselves Dr. in a practice/clinical setting without violating the laws , though I am not sure.

What state do you live in?

Additionally, I am not sure if CE's are able to perform the same level of assessments for clients that psychologists are (i.e. learning disabilities, personality assessments, etc) which is a potentially lucrative market (from what I've been told).

They can be. In Texas, counselors or any other master's level MH professional can administer tests if they are qualified, but a psychologist has to do the interpretation and he/she can't bill for testing hours done by the MH professional, just the interpretation time. I work in a neuropsych clinic and we have several LPC's that do testing for us with no problem. It's really a matter of whether they are trained well by those supervising them. I've met a couple of LPC's who, after 2 years of experience, make the new Ph.D./Psy.D. interns look like utter invalids when it comes to testing and knowing all of the idiosyncrasies of different tests and how to augment the testing for specific problems.

That said, LPC's have no place interpreting most testing. Sure, career skills evaluations, psychological screening tools, and an MBTI are all appropriate, but certainly not MMPI/TAT or other neuropsychological assessments.
 
They can be. In Texas, counselors or any other master's level MH professional can administer tests if they are qualified, but a psychologist has to do the interpretation and he/she can't bill for testing hours done by the MH professional, just the interpretation time. I work in a neuropsych clinic and we have several LPC's that do testing for us with no problem. It's really a matter of whether they are trained well by those supervising them. I've met a couple of LPC's who, after 2 years of experience, make the new Ph.D./Psy.D. interns look like utter invalids when it comes to testing and knowing all of the idiosyncrasies of different tests and how to augment the testing for specific problems.

That said, LPC's have no place interpreting most testing. Sure, career skills evaluations, psychological screening tools, and an MBTI are all appropriate, but certainly not MMPI/TAT or other neuropsychological assessments.

This is akin to a med student going into a new setting and needing to get up to speed. A seasoned md-level would work circles around them at first, but the med student would eventually catch up and then surpass them bc they have the underlying knowledge that let's them understand WHY they are doing what they are doing.

Technical training is needed, but the positions have very different goals. A neuropsych example would be test selection for a case...a college kid in an MVA who is displaying post-concussive symptoms would require a different set of tests than an elderly man who had a slip and fall and displays a seemingly similar cluster of symptoms. Both may have experienced an mTBI...but everything after that would be different.
 
This is akin to a med student going into a new setting and needing to get up to speed. A seasoned md-level would work circles around them at first, but the med student would eventually catch up and then surpass them bc they have the underlying knowledge that let's them understand WHY they are doing what they are doing.

I certainly don't deny this. In fact, I highlighted that point and the next one when I talked about the roles being different. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place but, in my experience, there is a subset of Psych Interns who come in and feel that an LPC who has been doing the same job that they are being trained in (the testing portion) shouldn't be supervising their testing and training them because they are "master's level."

To expand on your analogy, this would be akin to a Medical Intern not listening to a seasoned nurse or PA. The former running the risk of causing a huge internal organization problem.

Technical training is needed, but the positions have very different goals. A neuropsych example would be test selection for a case...a college kid in an MVA who is displaying post-concussive symptoms would require a different set of tests than an elderly man who had a slip and fall and displays a seemingly similar cluster of symptoms. Both may have experienced an mTBI...but everything after that would be different.

Again, I touched down on this, but I think that it's always important to talk about when we talk about training for different people in an organizational structure that uses people with different education levels and licensure. In our organization we tend to treat the testing portion as a standard practice, as that our Master's level practitioners and or Ph.D./Psy.D.'s all have the same standard of practice and skill level. The LPC's tend to get left out of the interpretation portion unless they have the free time and are just curious about a particular client, then they can sit in on case review.
 
there is a subset of Psych Interns who come in and feel that an LPC who has been doing the same job that they are being trained in (the testing portion) shouldn't be supervising their testing and training them because they are "master's level."

To expand on your analogy, this would be akin to a Medical Intern not listening to a seasoned nurse or PA. The former running the risk of causing a huge internal organization problem.

I agree that snobbery of that kind ought to be an embarrassment to the intern or early-career professional who refuses to listen. But, I just want to be clear--do you think the psychology intern may need to have a psychologist supervising them as a requirement of their training, rather than a personal preference based on so-called levels? I would hope that that is the case. They could likely be basically the same level (of training and experience), anyway, if you're talking about a psychology intern.
 
Again, I touched down on this, but I think that it's always important to talk about when we talk about training for different people in an organizational structure that uses people with different education levels and licensure. In our organization we tend to treat the testing portion as a standard practice, as that our Master's level practitioners and or Ph.D./Psy.D.'s all have the same standard of practice and skill level. The LPC's tend to get left out of the interpretation portion unless they have the free time and are just curious about a particular client, then they can sit in on case review.

I take issue with this statement. The classroom training, research training, and a host of other facets are different for doctoral and non-doctoral training....so proporting that the training (or skill level) is equivilant is not accurate. The depth and breadth of the training is different and it sounds like a disservice to all involved to lump everyone together.
 
I take issue with this statement. The classroom training, research training, and a host of other facets are different for doctoral and non-doctoral training....so proporting that the training (or skill level) is equivilant is not accurate. The depth and breadth of the training is different and it sounds like a disservice to all involved to lump everyone together.

I should have been more specific when it came to the context of training equality, I'm sorry that I was not. We expect the same training outcomes when it comes to the administration of tests for our master's level practitioners and our psychology interns. I wouldn't say that we dumb things down at all, we merely expect both sets of people to be fully capable of administering tests according to the directions stated in the administration manuals. I don't think this is unfair to either groups.

I didn't think that my comment about having a couple of master's level practitioners that preform testing at a higher level of technical proficiency than many of the psychology interns in our organization is disparaging to anyone. I'm sorry if this was misinterpreted or if you are somehow personally bent out of shape about the idea concept that real world experience can, at times, be more beneficial than formal training in an organizational context. It was not my intention to pursue a line of discussion that got anyone personally irritated.
 
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I agree that snobbery of that kind ought to be an embarrassment to the intern or early-career professional who refuses to listen. But, I just want to be clear--do you think the psychology intern may need to have a psychologist supervising them as a requirement of their training, rather than a personal preference based on so-called levels? I would hope that that is the case. They could likely be basically the same level (of training and experience), anyway, if you're talking about a psychology intern.

The intern(s) that I was refering to do have a psychologist supervising their overall experience. The testing aspect of the experience is the only piece that they have a master's level employee supervising them in the form of teaching them how to administer specific tests, doing quality control, and approving them to test independently. It's set up this way because the Psychologists that run the spend almost all of their time doing interpretation and thus haven't tested in some time. I think I shouldn't have to mention that the Psychologists also provide any training on projective measures, but given the tone recently I'm saying it anyway.
 
Back to the actual topic of discussion... Sorry for the digression.

You seem to suggest a distinction between counseling vs. psychotherapy, and that CE is more trained to do general, eclectic "counseling" while psychologists are trained to conduct specific "psychotherapy."

"Psychotherapy assumed a medical model, meaning the perosn receiving help was sick. The goal of psychotherapy was to alleviate the sickness, with the therapist as expert using information about the client's past to provide insight into the thoughts previously kept out of awareness... Counseling has been defined as... a proactive, holistically oriented process for helping persons learn to cope with problems of living and for promoting healthy development..." Erford's Orientation to the Counseling Profession


My understanding is that most graduates from the MSW or MA/MS in Counseling programs (LPCs, MFTs in CA, etc.) get further training in psychotherapy AFTER they are out there in the field. Their education only provide them with the basics. They further develop their professional identity by taking on psychoanalytic training, Jungian, CBT, etc... from outside training institutes. Both LPC and LCSW are equally able to conduct *psychotherapy* - tell me if I'm wrong.

This is all seriously dependent on program. MSW programs can be geared towards macro practice (policy), micro practice (counseling/therapy/casework), and advanced generalist (a sort of hodgepodge between the two). As a profession, counselors (and counseling psychology) has tended to focus more on the functional adult and less on the extreme cases. That's not to say that there aren't a goodly number of exceptions, it's just the norm that has been put out there.



If Master's-level practitioners are able to conduct psychotherapy, why wouldn't doctoral CE be able to do it? I guess what you're referring to is the specificity, the in-depth training on the kind of modalities used, etc... And you mean psychologist training is more specific and in-depth. But if that's the case, wouldn't an LPC (either master or doctoral) (or MSW) be able to get that kind of specific in-depth training OUTSIDE the academia?

They most certainly can. In fact any CACREP Ph.D. program should require that an applying student have 2 years of licensed counseling experience under their belt. They tend to not focus on therapy after Ph.D. because it opens up new doors (academia, research, consultation, and supervision).

Regarding employment in college/university counseling clinics - NYRanger1 says that CE is equally employeable in university counseling centers, while js1221 suggests that these positions usually go to licensed psychologists. I saw this interview with a mental health provider in an university clinic setting on Youtube as I was researching online: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18vLjdgsuq4

Any comments on that? I'd say that that's the kind of job I'm hoping to get eventually. Would a PhD in CE get me there?

I know people who are college counselors with a range of licenses and education levels. If counseling is a good fit for your personality I would suggest looking at some of these schools and perhaps changing the search terms to include "student affairs" and "student affairs and college counseling." Just remember that there are a lot of mental health professionals out there, so getting a job that you really want may take some time. You'll have to know how to sell yourself, but good luck and godspeed.

I feel like I need to say "Seacrest out!"
 
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Hi Folks,

I find myself in a similar situation as many of you a few years ago. In short, I have been accepted into a PhD CE program AND a PsyD program. I'm leaning towards the CE program (my goals are to teach and conduct research). My question is, for the folks who chose CE a few years ago, how are the programs going?
 
:

PhD in Counseling Psychology (APA-accredited)

Pros:
1. .More career options than PhD Counselor Education /LPC: Psychologists can do assessments. Not absolutely true. In every state I am/have been licensed in, licensed professional counselors can and do engage in assessment. Now, the types of assessment tools differ, but in most part, counselors can and do engage in testing.
2. .Most staff at University Counseling Centers seems to be PhD in Counseling Psych. (Can PhD Counselor Ed folks work in university counseling centers?) Yes, many CES individuals (Phd, EdD) work in counseling centers. A former professor (EdD in CES) is an assistant director of the uni counseling center, and the counseling center at the school I attend only has masters and doctoral counselors.
3. .Able to teach at university-level, undergrad or grad. CES professionals can teach as well, undergrad and grad. I know a PhD CES counselor who is adjunct faculty in a counseling psych program.
4. .Respected as a “Psychologist” not “Counselor”. The "respect" difference is only a facade, without any basis.
5. .Able to enter the doctoral program as non-Psych major plus some Psych/Counseling undergrad/graduate work. MA in Counseling is not required.
6. .PhD students are funded (average $18K a year?) Many CES programs are funded as well; a professor (and now friend) had her whole doctorate paid for by research stipends
7. .In private practice: Able to see patients with insurance (Madicare, Medicaid). LPC can't bill Medicare. While true now, the transition is coming.

Cons:
1. .More Time Investment: 5-6 years for PhD (regardless of your Master’s), plus 1 year internship = Total 6-7 years.
2. .The orientation seems to be very quantitative (I come from a qualitative background and I don’t have so much confidence in statistics or quantitative stuff. though I can learn...). Psychology can be qualitative or quantitative, much like CES/counseling
3. .CACREP programs in future will only hire CACREP PhDs in Counselor Ed? So PhD Counseling Psych will not be hired? Hence reduce job opportunities (?). True, CACREP new standards require new faculty to hold a doctorate in CES
4. .APA internships are hard to find / get into.
5. .Increasingly poor job market for psychologists (???) because of the competition with Master’s-level therapists?

PhD in Counselor Education (CACREP-accredited)

Pros:
1. .Shorter Time: 3 years for PhD; 2 years for LPC = Total time: 5 years.
2. .Easy to find a job after graduation; abundant academic jobs (compared to PhD Counseling Psych?) Not really accurate.
3. .I like the more “qualitative” aspect of the program. Less quantitative than Counseling Psych. As I mentioned before, both Counseling Psych and CES can (and do) engage in qualitative and quantitative research.
4. .I like the hybrid program: lots of clinical/human focus, some teaching and supervision, some research. PhD Counseling Psych seems to be strongly research-driven, and offers less flexibility.
5. .Still able to do one-on-one therapy as LPC. (Though the pay might be lower than licensed psychologists?)

Cons:
1. .Required a completed Master’s degree before starting the doctoral degree. Some requires a couple years experience as a therapist too.
2. .PhD students are usually not funded besides having tuition waiver (?). That means $$$ from my own pocket.
3. .Limit job opportunities to academia: Only able to teach Master’s level counseling students at CACREP programs.
4. .Do PhDs in Counselor Ed. / LPC get hired to work in university counseling centers?? (Seems to me that universities tend to hire Counseling Psych folks?)
5. .LPCs are not as respected as psychologists.
6. .LPCs can’t bill Medicare.

Feel free to add to the list, comment, or correct my mistakes, etc. Thank you!
.

 
Counselor Education programs are geared to prepare Master's level Counselors/Clinicians to be educators, clincians, and researchers. Doctoral programs typically require that applicants not only complete a masters in counseling (or a related field), but also have post masters experiences. The reason for this requirment is because you as a CE you will be teaching and supervising future counselors and its important to have experience in the field before teaching it. How can you supervise or teach someone if you don't have professional and clinical experience? This plays in part because pursing a doc in CE involves several practicums and internships as both a clinician in the university's counseling center, school, or community (depending on your track or experience as a mental health/rehab/school counselor). CE students also supervise Master's level counseling students at the individual and group level as well as part of their training in counselor education.

CE programs are heavy on research as well. Research any top teir CE phd program and you will find an incredibly high rate of research and publication. You can plan on really beefing up your publications and presenations as a part of these programs as many of the faculty and programs have a high rate of scholarly productivity.

I'm not sure where you saw the funding numbers because like many phd's, CE students also have competitive stipends ranging from $12,000 to nearly $19000, and that's not including full benefits and academic scholarships.

Job market is pretty open as well, again not sure where you got your information from. Counselor Educators can be be, and are employed by university counseling centers, private/group practice, school districts, communitry/non-profit agency's, counseling departments and counseling psych departments. They can teach and supervise undergraduate, masters, and doctoral level students.

It really depends on your experience, and how you want to identify yourself. Last year I was unsure about which way to go, Counselor Ed/Counseling Psych, and after researching both I just found that CE was a better fit for me.

I have a counseling background and I wanted to continue to teach, research, practice, become a licensed practioner, and accreddited clinical supervisor. I have been a member of the American Counseling Association (ACA) for a number of years and just feel that CE, personally was a better fit for me.

I'm currently interviewing at several top tier R1 CE doc programs. Feel free to message me if you have questions or want to talk about it more, I'd be glad to help.
 
Hi NY Rangers1, I'd like to know more about the course content for CEs. Are all the courses geared to teaching counseling & becoming a supervisor? Are you learning more clinical skills than as a Mental Health Counselor or Licensed Professional Counselor? What kind of research are you conducting and how might this differ from someone in a Counseling Psychology PhD program?
 
http://www.cacrep.org/doc/Faculty requirements in the CACREP 2009 Standards May 2009.pdf

That link provides the info regarding CACREP departmental requirements for core faculty.

When deciding which route I wanted to take it came down to:
1. How do I identify myself professionally?
Answer: as a professional counselor

2. What do I want to do with this doctorate?
Answer: I want to teach and clinically supervise counselors at the masters and doctoral level. I want to continue to practice. I want to conduct research that can move the counseling profession forward.

3. Now, which doctorate is a best fit for me and help me best achieve those goals?
Answer: Counselor Ed

If you have questions with counselor Ed stuff, message me and I'll try to answer them as best I can!

Not sure how to personally message you on here. Just wanted to pick your brain about the CE and whether or not you are enjoying your program? I just recently applied to a CE Phd program coming from a School Counseling background. However, I eventually want to become LPC and run a private practice.
 
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