PhD/PsyD PhD in School Psychology or PhD in Clinical Psychology (almost finished with masters in school psychology)

[Shutfreedom]

Hi everyone!

I read some discussions similar on this topic, but just wanted to see if anyone has done this or has an insight.

I am looking into applying for PhD programs (school psychology or clinical) in California. My question is, if I decide to do a PhD in school psychology and do my pre & post doc internship hours in clinical, and take exams and apply for my license, would I be considered a licensed psychologist/clinical psychologist? or will it be registered as something else? like educational?

Main Goal: to be a licensed psychologist and be able to do research, maybe teach, and work in clinical settings for psychotherapy with children & adults. I would mainly want to do clinical & research.


(a little information about me now)
I am currently in a graduate program here in California. Masters in Counseling, option in School Psychology. It is a 3-year-program that includes 1 year full time internship. I am about to start my 3rd year. In addition to this program, I also took on additional clinical courses to also apply for the License Professional Clinical Counselor (LPCC).

My original goal: to be a school psychologist and have the LPCC as another option. I love school psychology and clinical as well. As a school psychologist, we also do individual and group counseling and they are pushing for more counseling/clinical approaches (in CA). However, it can be very draining and exhausting (if you are working in a high assessment district), so I wanted to have an option to either leave school psychology and use my LPCC to work at a hospital/clinical setting/ or my own private practice and provide psychotherapy.

I originally didn't want to pursue a PhD because of the amount of time it would take to complete (and in school psychology, you don't need a PhD to enter in the field and in most districts they don't pay more for PhD if they do, it's only $1-$4k more). However, recently I started to think about possible barriers that I would face when wanting to do research and or work with personality disorders (conduct, antisocial, etc.) I imagined not having the right experience/education/training/connections/title as a clinical psychologist as being a road block in my future.

So I started to look at PhD clinical programs in California. I was specifically looking for programs that would accept transfer students and would allow to transfer units/credits (this is important for me, because I do not want to do another 5-7 years). oh and no, I do not want to pursue a PsyD either. It's usually only 1 year shorter than a PhD and you have to pay out of pocket. No Thank you.

I found a few that would take in masters/transfer units. I came across UC Santa Barbara. Their PhD program is a combination. PhD in School Psychology, Counseling, and Clinical. You do have to pick an emphasis, but looking at the course requirements, it's not that much different. Anyway, it turns out that two of my advisors/professors went there for their PhD in the same program. One of them did the same grad program that I'm in now and was able to transfer there along with the majority of the courses she did in her masters. Overall, she was able to finish within 4 years (2.5 years in courses and 1 year internship). They both did their emphasis in school psychology, but did clinical and school internships.

Because they do accept transfer units (it may be 30+) and I would be able to finish in 4 years, it is my top pick for PhD.
Now, because I have to pick an emphasis, I would want to pick clinical. However, the acceptance rate for clinical is a lot lower than the school psychology about 14%. My current program is about 10% and that was challenging. So based on my current program and experience and the fact that I will already have my school psychologist credentials and be a working school psychologist, I am thinking of applying for the school psychology emphasis.

I will look into other programs, but so far this one seems like a better fit because of the transfer option.

So this takes us back to the original question. If I decide to do the PhD in school psychology and do my pre/post internship in clinical settings, when I apply for my license, what would my title be? Licensed, Clinical, or Educational Psychologist?

I have read some discussions on here of a few who did PhD in school psychology and still pursue clinical psychology.

I also read on here about some people doing a PsyD in clinical and then wanting to work in a school setting as a school psychologist. I know with that you need a specific amount of hours in school settings and some additional courses and have a credential. So I am not sure how it would work if it was the other way around. Since I will also have the additional clinical courses, hours, and having the LPCC? I don't know =/ nor do I know what would happen to my LPCC if I do the PhD. My guess is that the license in psychology would take over?

I don't know if this would help, but I'll list some of the main courses in my current school psychology program:

(Intro to Disabilities & Disorders, Child/adolescence development, Individual Counseling Strategies, Individual Clinical Counseling, Group Counseling, Ethical, Legal, and Professional Issues in Counseling, Applied Behavior Analysis, Behavioral Consultation, Behavioral, Assessment and Interventions, Assessment and Case Study Techniques, Assessment of Disabilities and Evidence-Based Interventions, Assessment of Social, Emotional, & Behavioral Disorders, Principles of Research and Program Evaluation in Counseling)

and these are the additional clinical courses I completed for the LPCC:

(Diagnosis and Treatment in Counseling, Psychopharmacology for Clinical Counselors, Case, Management in Counseling, Advanced Theories and Techniques in Counseling, Couples and Family Counseling, Crisis and Trauma Counseling, Substance Use and Co-Occurring Disorders Counseling)

This might be confusing or may seem as a confused student lol, but any insight or recommendations would greatly be appreciated. Thank You! =D

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Some school psychology programs are geared towards licensure as a psychologist- health services provider (same as clinical and counseling programs) and some aren’t. This should be clearly listed on he program website. If in doubt, ask them. Good programs of this type should be accredited by APA.

Programs geared towards licensure as a School Psychologist might not qualify you for licensure. These types of programs are often accredited by NASP and may not offer the required coursework and clinical experiences to lead to psychologist-HSP licensure.

Also, note that some schools may have both types of programs. For example: UMass Amherst College of Education
Check out that page and follow the links for descriptions of both program tracks.

 

[deleted343839]

I would mainly want to do clinical & research.

First things first. What kind of job are you interested in, and do you know whether it exists somewhere?

Do you want to spend a lot of your time doing research, and do some clinical practice on the side, or vice versa? If you think you might want to spend a large proportion of your time in research, you will need to attend a program that will help you launch a research career in your area of interest. Setting aside the convenience of UC Santa Barbara, which seems to be an exception to the general rule when it comes to transfers, will it prepare you for the career you want? Also, do you have any prior research experience? This may be an important obstacle to your plan.

I'm also trying to understand why you are still considering school psychology when your interest has shifted toward research (and, I assume, practice?) with personality disorders. That doesn't sound like the kind of thing most school psychology programs would prepare you to do.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

First things first. What kind of job are you interested in, and do you know whether it exists somewhere?

Do you want to spend a lot of your time doing research, and do some clinical practice on the side, or vice versa? If you think you might want to spend a large proportion of your time in research, you will need to attend a program that will help you launch a research career in your area of interest. Setting aside the convenience of UC Santa Barbara, which seems to be an exception to the general rule when it comes to transfers, will it prepare you for the career you want? Also, do you have any prior research experience? This may be an important obstacle to your plan.

I'm also trying to understand why you are still considering school psychology when your interest has shifted toward research (and, I assume, practice?) with personality disorders. That doesn't sound like the kind of thing most school psychology programs would prepare you to do.

Just to tag onto this, UCSB's School Psych program (and all areas of the combined program) is also very research focused, so having a lot of experience practicing in school psych may not be as attractive to them as you think. They are very interested in people who have a decent amount of research experience in their areas of interest. I wanted to note this because you didn't say much about research other than indicating that it is something you want to engage in.

 

[Shutfreedom]

Just to tag onto this, UCSB's School Psych program (and all areas of the combined program) is also very research focused, so having a lot of experience practicing in school psych may not be as attractive to them as you think. They are very interested in people who have a decent amount of research experience in their areas of interest. I wanted to note this because you didn't say much about research other than indicating that it is something you want to engage in.

Some school psychology programs are geared towards licensure as a psychologist- health services provider (same as clinical and counseling programs) and some aren’t. This should be clearly listed on he program website. If in doubt, ask them. Good programs of this type should be accredited by APA.

Programs geared towards licensure as a School Psychologist might not qualify you for licensure. These types of programs are often accredited by NASP and may not offer the required coursework and clinical experiences to lead to psychologist-HSP licensure.

Also, note that some schools may have both types of programs. For example: UMass Amherst College of Education
Check out that page and follow the links for descriptions of both program tracks.

thank you, yes. All programs that I am considering are accredited by APA. I did research schools that offered a masters & PhD track, but I decided to stay local and just do the masters. After working as a school psychologist for 3 years, you are able to obtain a license and become a Licensed Education Psychologist. With that you're able to open your own practice, but that practice would only be for assessments and so on. not really psychotherapy/clinical.

 

[Shutfreedom]

First things first. What kind of job are you interested in, and do you know whether it exists somewhere?

Do you want to spend a lot of your time doing research, and do some clinical practice on the side, or vice versa? If you think you might want to spend a large proportion of your time in research, you will need to attend a program that will help you launch a research career in your area of interest. Setting aside the convenience of UC Santa Barbara, which seems to be an exception to the general rule when it comes to transfers, will it prepare you for the career you want? Also, do you have any prior research experience? This may be an important obstacle to your plan.

I'm also trying to understand why you are still considering school psychology when your interest has shifted toward research (and, I assume, practice?) with personality disorders. That doesn't sound like the kind of thing most school psychology programs would prepare you to do.

Yes, I think I would want to do research and then some clinical practice on the side. I would want the benefit of being able to do both. All schools that I have researched share similar interests of mine (personality disorders, school psychology, interventions, ptsd, autism, family systems, etc.)

I like school psychology and I think I would want to work as a school psychologist for a few years, before conducting research and clinical. I'd rather not wait to do the PhD, because most programs that accept transfers will only do it if it's been within 3-5 years. This way, I get it out of the way within 4 years. Instead of 5-7 years.

Most graduate programs here in CA for school psychology are emphasizing on ABA or Clinical. Our state is slowly catching up on the importance of mental health. Our job duties are also changing to a clinical focus of psychotherapy with general and special education. My program doesn't offer an emphasis with ABA or Clinical. They do offer certifications and a BCBA licensure track... they actually push for you to do that. I decided to do the clinical route and take additional courses for LPCC. I didn't get the support from my advisors for doing this. Instead, they asked if I wanted to change programs. However, the advisor for the clinical programs took me under his wing and helped me through those obstacles. It amazes me that they wouldn't see a benefit of having clinical experience in schools. In our training and even in the workforce, the majority is clinical. A lot of the students we see have been exposed to trauma, so it only makes sense to me to have a broader understanding/knowledge and experience in clinical to help them.

Like I said, they are slowly coming around to the idea of mental health being a big factor in schools/children. Instead of having to refer them out to a social worker or a clinical counselor, I would like to be the one to help them.

School psychologists do see/help children and adolescence with personality disorders. However, because it's a school environment, our sessions are brief. Mainly because our impact on assessments.

But you're right. I don't have research experience, and that is something I plan on doing this year with some of the professors/advisors here. All of my exeperiences have been applied/clinical.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

Yes, I think I would want to do research and then some clinical practice on the side. I would want the benefit of being able to do both. All schools that I have researched share similar interests of mine (personality disorders, school psychology, interventions, ptsd, autism, family systems, etc.)

That is a lot of different research interests. You'll have to narrow that substantially.

 

[ClinicalABA]

... My program doesn't offer an emphasis with ABA or Clinical. They do offer certifications and a BCBA licensure track... they actually push for you to do that...

I’d highly recommend that anybody wanting to work with children in a school setting (even a clinical setting) get the BCBA credential if at all possible. It gives you an extra skill set, more credibility, and access to some some non-psychology billing codes. Also, as a field, ABA has shown amazing self-advocacy, particularly at the star level. Many states now require ABA licensure. While there are often exemptions for psychologists, I wouldn’t hold plan on those being around forever. The BCBA training standards and requirements are getting more comprehensive and stringent, and the field will make sure that licensing boards recognize the increased level of training (now 7 graduate level ABA courses that you likely don’t get in psych grad programs) and carve it out as further distinct from psychology. It’s pretty impressive what a field can do for themselves without a dysfunctional level of in-fighting.

 

[Shutfreedom]

Well I chose not to do BCBA, because it is a lot of work and training on top of already rigorous school psych program. They do push for that, but in the real world, I've worked with many school psychologists who don't have their BCBA and very little that do. Those that do are given a lot more work and cases on top of their overloading cases (which is a factor on school psych burnout within 7 years) and guess what? no extra pay. No thank you. Every school district has contracted with those agencies anyway. So we work with them closely. Plus all my training and work experience has always been ABA. Working with BCBA's as well. So for me it didn't make sense. Plus our program already includes 4 of those required courses for BCBA. It's great to have, especially if you're a teacher in special education. It makes sense when working with autism and or severe behaviors. However, you can't really use ABA skills with general education students who have experience trauma or have a personality disorder. There are more doors open with an LPCC.

 

[Shutfreedom]

Well thanks everyone. My actual question wasn't answered lol. I emailed the APA, so hopefully I get a response soon.

 

[deleted343839]

Well thanks everyone. My actual question wasn't answered lol. I emailed the APA, so hopefully I get a response soon.

Yes, it was answered. You asked this question:

My question is, if I decide to do a PhD in school psychology and do my pre & post doc internship hours in clinical, and take exams and apply for my license, would I be considered a licensed psychologist/clinical psychologist? or will it be registered as something else? like educational?

You got this answer:

Some school psychology programs are geared towards licensure as a psychologist- health services provider (same as clinical and counseling programs) and some aren’t. This should be clearly listed on he program website. If in doubt, ask them. Good programs of this type should be accredited by APA.

State licensing boards issue licenses, not APA, and they're all a little different from one another. Anything you hear from APA will likely be generalities. The short answer is it depends on whether the program in question meets the state board's requirements for the type of licensure you want. A reputable program will be APA-accredited and will disclose data on the percentage of its graduates who went on to be licensed.

I like school psychology and I think I would want to work as a school psychologist for a few years, before conducting research and clinical.

This is an unlikely career trajectory. Not saying it can't be done, but it would be challenging.

 

[MAClinician]

Most graduate programs here in CA for school psychology are emphasizing on ABA or Clinical. Our state is slowly catching up on the importance of mental health. Our job duties are also changing to a clinical focus of psychotherapy with general and special education. My program doesn't offer an emphasis with ABA or Clinical. They do offer certifications and a BCBA licensure track... they actually push for you to do that. I decided to do the clinical route and take additional courses for LPCC. I didn't get the support from my advisors for doing this. Instead, they asked if I wanted to change programs. However, the advisor for the clinical programs took me under his wing and helped me through those obstacles. It amazes me that they wouldn't see a benefit of having clinical experience in schools. In our training and even in the workforce, the majority is clinical. A lot of the students we see have been exposed to trauma, so it only makes sense to me to have a broader understanding/knowledge and experience in clinical to help them.

Like I said, they are slowly coming around to the idea of mental health being a big factor in schools/children. Instead of having to refer them out to a social worker or a clinical counselor, I would like to be the one to help them.

School psychologists do see/help children and adolescence with personality disorders. However, because it's a school environment, our sessions are brief. Mainly because our impact on assessments.

The role of the school psychologist is to help the student in the school, whether it is with academic, behavioral, or social/communicative needs. Trauma therapy or any type of long term therapy isn’t done in school for several reasons. The most important reason is you don’t start processing a trauma then send the kid back into the classroom to try to learn. School psychs do assessment but sessions are brief more so because the purpose of the student being in school is to get an education, not therapy. Brief interventions are utilized to help the student be successful in the school setting. If your goal is to work with Trauma or other clinical issues, then that should be done outside of the school setting and a clinical degree is probably more appropriate to pursue. Or a combined clinical/school program. But I highly doubt that in any school in CA, you will be doing trauma work or any longer term work. There is definitely a push for schools to be more trauma informed or trauma sensitive and that would be seen school wide. Using trauma sensitive approaches in the classroom to help engage students in the learning process is something a school psych could be supporting. But 1:1 in depth clinical work is not the norm. There are some districts that have school based mental health centers located in the school. But those clinicians are usually masters level, billing through insurance or grant funded, and designed to eliminate barriers to mental health treatment. Residential schools or therapeutic day schools might be an exception to this, but even then there is usually clinical staff doing the long-term work, in my experience.

 

[Shutfreedom]

The role of the school psychologist is to help the student in the school, whether it is with academic, behavioral, or social/communicative needs. Trauma therapy or any type of long term therapy isn’t done in school for several reasons. The most important reason is you don’t start processing a trauma then send the kid back into the classroom to try to learn. School psychs do assessment but sessions are brief more so because the purpose of the student being in school is to get an education, not therapy. Brief interventions are utilized to help the student be successful in the school setting. If your goal is to work with Trauma or other clinical issues, then that should be done outside of the school setting and a clinical degree is probably more appropriate to pursue. Or a combined clinical/school program. But I highly doubt that in any school in CA, you will be doing trauma work or any longer term work. There is definitely a push for schools to be more trauma informed or trauma sensitive and that would be seen school wide. Using trauma sensitive approaches in the classroom to help engage students in the learning process is something a school psych could be supporting. But 1:1 in depth clinical work is not the norm. There are some districts that have school based mental health centers located in the school. But those clinicians are usually masters level, billing through insurance or grant funded, and designed to eliminate barriers to mental health treatment. Residential schools or therapeutic day schools might be an exception to this, but even then there is usually clinical staff doing the long-term work, in my experience.

listen sister, you can underline, bold, google descriptions, try and tell me what my actual role as a school psych is, and more importantly you are more than welcome to come to breakfast, lunch, and even dinner..... BUT you will not come for me. I am guessing you're a clinical counselor and think that you're the only one that is allowed to do any psychotherapy/clinical work. Psychotherapy/counseling is considered a big portion of our duties when it comes to interventions. So our sessions are about 35-45 mins or sometimes an 1hr+ depending on the case. A lot of our cases include students that were abandoned (literally dropped off at school by parents/guardians and never came back for them), sexually abused, physically abused, suffer from depression, anxiety, etc. the list goes on and on. Guess who provides the intervention services (counseling/psychotherapy)? school psychologists.

I have worked at a lot of districts all over California, and some districts have full-time clinical counselors and social workers. Guess what their job duties include? counseling/psychotherapy AT SCHOOL. -----> guess what they do after their sessions? lol go back to class sweetie. This is also on top of the counseling/psychotherapy we provide to the same students. Why? because it's in their intervention plan. Sometimes, the student doesn't get along or even refuses to talk to the clinical counselor or social worker, because they don't trust them or other reasons and will only work with the school psych. When that happens, we collaborate together and try and get them into our sessions to slowly introduce them to the clinical counselor or social worker.

Additionally, we do have family centers within school districts where they have clinicians. Another reason why these interventions take place at school is because A LOT of families cannot afford counseling services outside the school. So by law, we are supposed to offer these services for FREE. Even then, they don't seek additional counseling, because their child already see several mental health professionals at school. I will leave you with some attachments on what school psychs do and some research on the clinical aspects we do as well.

 

[Shutfreedom]

Yes, it was answered. You asked this question:



You got this answer:



State licensing boards issue licenses, not APA, and they're all a little different from one another. Anything you hear from APA will likely be generalities. The short answer is it depends on whether the program in question meets the state board's requirements for the type of licensure you want. A reputable program will be APA-accredited and will disclose data on the percentage of its graduates who went on to be licensed.



This is an unlikely career trajectory. Not saying it can't be done, but it would be challenging.

Hi Mama June =D first things first. NO. My question was not answered at all. I also emailed the licensing board. As I mentioned before, every SINGLE program I researched or considered meet the state requirements for licensure and are APA-accredited. Again, this was mentioned already in a different response. Again, this wasn't even a question I had. The whole data/percentages on graduates who obtained their license isn't even relevant to my actual question. All of that information is just common knowledge when looking at programs. In the data/stats sheet, does it tell you the title/specifics/description(s) that is relevant to my actual question???? NO! so why would you even bring that up? Anyway I attached a screenshot from the APA website where you can email them about licensure questions... just in case you try and come for someone again.


Now, lets move on to the whole you placing barriers on what someone can and cannot do with their PhD. There are plenty of people that go on to get their PhD in school psych or clinical and end up working as a school psych or psychologist. There are some professors in my program who obtained their PhD in school psychology and or clinical. Guess what they did after obtaining that? they went back to being a school psych and or counselor.... did a little bit of teaching on the side and research... and some went back to teaching full-time. What you're implying is that it's illegal, unethical, dumb, hard, challenging, etc. to do that. Do you sign a contract with the PhD program that you will not go back to applied/clinical work? lol please.

Yes, everyone knows that you pursue a PhD rather than a PsyD if in the LONG RUN you want to do research/teach. This is another reason why a lot of students don't end up getting their license, because it's not needed in their field of teaching or research. However, let's not pretend like the ones that choose a different route do not exist.

xoxo