PhD/PsyD VS. LCSW

[TMS@1987]

I am a sophmore undergraduate student majoring in psychology. my Ultimate goal is to become a therapist and potentially go into private practice. I also hope to travel the world and work in England, Australia, France, etc.

My problem is is that I really can't decide between going for a PhD/PsyD or and MSW and potentially be licensed as an LCSW. I want to go for the PhD/PsyD because I like the idea of being a Doctor, I want to have the best training so I can provide the best treatment for my patients, I have an interest (however small) in potentially teaching in a college/university, and, although I know I will never make the big bucks, I would like to make money.

However, I do have concerns. I am incredibly intimidated by the idea of going on for a PhD. I have never be what one would consider a "brain", although I have aced all my psych classes so far. I am just scared that I don't have what it takes to get through a PhD/PsyD program.

On the other hand, the MSW seems like such a more tempting and practical option. Its shorter, cheaper, and I can have my own practice. but I just can't shake the feeling that if I go for the MSW I'm gonna feel like I settled for second-best and I'm gonna regret it.

What do you guys suggest? How was the PhD/PsyD program for you guys? was it overwhelming? do you have regrets about it? are you glad you did it?

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[ExpressYourself]

Can anybody offer input on if you can open your own private practice with an MA in clinical psychology? Can you still do well for yourself with an MACL? What is the highest salary that you can make with an MA in clinical psychology?


I'm a 2nd year Psy.D student, and I'm contemplating on just leaving with my MA. At this moment, I'm not happy and don't think I'm getting my money's worth. I don't want to have a 120-140K debt and feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I get out in the field......

I initially liked my school, but let's just say lately I'm starting to notice that this school I'm attending may not have been the best choice. I'm finally starting to understand what others on this forum are saying about professional schools and being in debt when you don't even feel you've received adequate training. If I feel like I'm getting my money's worht (which I'm not), I would definitely stay in this Psy.D program


Like you, a masters degree looks more appealing because I can get done quicker and start working in the field. I'm not doing too well financially anyhow, and am not sure if I'm ready to invest another 3 years before getting a stable job.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Most likely (99% sure) your MS isn't license eligible if you stopped. An LMHC / LSW are completely different animals...which are two of the most prevalent MS level licensures.

-t

 

[ExpressYourself]

Most likely (99% sure) your MS isn't license eligible if you stopped. An LMHC / LSW are completely different animals...which are two of the most prevalent MS level licensures.

-t

Yeah, I would like to become an LCPC if I stopped at my MA. Is that you meant by licensure? All the people with MA's I know are LCPC's.

Gosh, I guess I don't know much about this..Any information would be appreciated.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yeah, I would like to become an LCPC if I stopped at my MA. Is that you meant by licensure? All the people with MA's I know are LCPC's.

Gosh, I guess I don't know much about this..Any information would be appreciated.

Your degree would be an MA/MS....but your licensure would be under a specific title (LMHC, LSW, etc). Since each state has their own requirements for licensure, you'd need to contact your local licensing board to find out what is needed to meet their state requirements.

-t

 

[pingouin]

Yeah, I would like to become an LCPC if I stopped at my MA. Is that you meant by licensure? All the people with MA's I know are LCPC's.

Gosh, I guess I don't know much about this..Any information would be appreciated.

I saw in another thread that you're in IL. The MA/MS-level license in IL is LCPC, but in many other states it's called the LPC or the LMHC. Essentially the same thing.

And T4C- Stop it with the "LSW" crap! That's the bachelors-level license!!!!!!!! (Which not all states have.)

And back to the OP, I'd suggest that perhaps you don't need to make this decision right now. You could get a job in the mental health field, see what each clinician's role is.. Maybe take a few years off after undergrad to travel like you want to, or work, and get some exposure so that you can make a better-informed decision. I finished my MSW at 23, and I don't regret taking the route I did, but I don't know that I'd do it that way again if I had the chance for a do-over.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

And T4C- Stop it with the "LSW" crap! That's the bachelors-level license!!!!!!!! (Which not all states have.)

Whoops!

MSW.



-t

 

[pingouin]

Whoops!

MSW.



-t

MSW = graduated
LCSW = clinically licensed*




*unless you're in OH, in which case it's LISW. Or KS, where it's LCSCW. Or probably some other states I don't know about.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

MSW = graduated
LCSW = clinically licensed*




*unless you're in OH, in which case it's LISW. Or KS, where it's LCSCW. Or probably some other states I don't know about.

Really?

I thought LCSW was a licensure that required additional classes/supervision past the regular masters classes.....go figure!

-t

 

[pingouin]

It is. MSW is the degree, LCSW is the licensure. It's just not called "LCSW" in every state just to confuse everyone.

 

[socialcog]

... although I know I will never make the big bucks, I would like to make money.

If you play your cards right, be strategic and niche yourself, you can do quite well in private practice. At that level compared to a PhD, the incremental hourly rate can be minute and can possibly exceed some psychologists.

Please ignore the average annual salaries of LCSW's. The earning potential in private practice greatly exceeds the annual average. Many psychologists that I know retail at $150.00/hour. Niched LCSWs can comfortably asked as high as (if not higher) $130.00. Moreover, if you are good--your reputation will yield more referrals in your community.

I am aware I may piss off some PhD candidates as I post this, but this is the truth.

PM me is you have questions.

 

[positivepsych]

That's misleading. It's not the hourly pay rate that's the problem, its filling one's schedule. Not a lot of psychologists have full practices starting out or in saturated markets. I know people in practice for 5+ years that see 10 patients/week, though others do a lot better.

Just don't assume that once you're licensed, the dough will automatically start rolling in. And don't forget that supply is increasingly outstripping demand, both at the doctorate and masters level.

 

[socialcog]

That's misleading. It's not the hourly pay rate that's the problem, its filling one's schedule. Not a lot of psychologists have full practices starting out or in saturated markets. I know people in practice for 5+ years that see 10 patients/week, though others do a lot better.

Just don't assume that once you're licensed, the dough will automatically start rolling in. And don't forget that supply is increasingly outstripping demand, both at the doctorate and masters level.

This is precisely why you should be 'niched' as I mentioned. I said "you can do quite well," not you WILL do quite well. This thread was isn't really intended to discuss marketing strategy...otherwise I would have elaborated.

 

[deleted176373]

I'm a 2nd year Psy.D student, and I'm contemplating on just leaving with my MA. At this moment, I'm not happy and don't think I'm getting my money's worth. I don't want to have a 120-140K debt and feel like I don't know what I'm doing when I get out in the field......

I initially liked my school, but let's just say lately I'm starting to notice that this school I'm attending may not have been the best choice. I'm finally starting to understand what others on this forum are saying about professional schools and being in debt when you don't even feel you've received adequate training. If I feel like I'm getting my money's worht (which I'm not), I would definitely stay in this Psy.D program

It sucks that you are halfway through and feeling that way. It's hard to say if you should cut your losses or just press through the rest of the way. It seems that you'll lose either way. As a masters level psychologist, you are limited with regard to your career options (but it's not the end of the world.)

I wish I had a crystal ball to tell you which way to go... you are at a tough point where both choices sort of suck.

Mark

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Filling the schedule can be a concern, though it depends on your area of expertise. I know people who have problems consistently filling their schedule, while others have a waiting list. Being a generalist seems to be a harder draw, since you would be competing against many other people. On the other hand, if you can get known for niche work, you can do quite well for yourself. I know people who are booked out consistently for months (forensic, neuro, and ADHD/LD respectively).

-t

 

[causeeffect]

The people I know of fill out all of their schedule by being employed at 2 or more places at a time.
For example I know a LCSW that works 9-5 in a hospital then from 5-later that evening at a private practice.
I know a Ph.D that works as a wellness counselor at a college and has a few private practice appointments afterwards. Another works at a some sort of institute and then has a private practice on the side.

I also agree having a niche really matters.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I agree with causeeffect about having multiple jobs. Most of the professionals I know have a 'day' job and then do their private practice on the side. Many shift things around (more PP and then just moonlighting at a hospital/CMHC, etc) and try and keep it fresh.

-t

 

[pingouin]

Speaking of reasons to have another job and do part-time private practice.. I got slammed with self-employment tax last year. Not that I didn't prepare for it, I just didn't prepare enough. Learned my lesson and ramped up the number of hospital hours I work (employer takes out taxes) and keep a cap on the number of private patients I see each week. I'll still take a hit this year, but hopefully not as bad.

 

[TMS@1987]

But, what was/is the PhD/PsyD program like for you guys? I've asked people in the past and they just gave me vague outlines, which makes me concerned because one of them is my school shrink (whom I interviewed) and he had expressed and interest in the past in getting me into a PhD program (he also runs the psych club so I come into contact with him regularly so the subject has come up once or twice), so I'm a little worried that he may be holding back so i dont freak out but i can handle it. I just need to know hat exactly I'm facing if I decide to go into a PhD program.

 

[Ollie123]

Could you elaborate on what you're looking for in "What its like?".

I'm happy to share, just not sure how you want me to answer. I don't feel anything we do here has been particularly intellectually challenging - save for my current neuroscience course, but that was my own choice

Some people are scared of numbers, in which case the stats requirements (typically 3-4 required courses in a PhD program, with the option to take more), might be a bit much.

I'm not really sure how to answer the question though. Yes - you need to be smart. Just how smart depends on a ton of factors, and isn't really something I'd even want to guess at if I DID know you, let alone when I don't.

As for the rest of the discussion - would anyone join a practice if the owner didn't actually see clients? (I say only half-joking). As much as I hate the idea of actually being a therapist, all this talk of business has me interested and I think I'd love to actually own/operate a large clinic as long as I got to do research and was only involved in the business end of running things and wasn't actually seeing clients

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

....I think I'd love to actually own/operate a large clinic as long as I got to do research and was only involved in the business end of running things and wasn't actually seeing clients

That is what I plan on doing. I'd like to carry a small case load, but the majority of my time would NOT be doing therapy.

-t

 

[TMS@1987]

did/ do you find the workload to be unbearable? how many hours do you study? how does the quantity of the work differ from undergrad? i know a PhD who basically described it as "the work isnt harder, theirs just more of it", is this true? if so, how much more?

p.s. i am not saying i am not willing to do the work, i know its not easy to become a doctor, so please dont give me that lecture (i get that enough from my mom). i just want to know what im going to be getting myself involved in before i make the leap.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

did/ do you find the workload to be unbearable? how many hours do you study? how does the quantity of the work differ from undergrad? i know a PhD who basically described it as "the work isnt harder, theirs just more of it", is this true? if so, how much more?

I actually am finding the workload to be unbearable. Just this morning my classmate and I approached a prof to a non-clinical class we're taking and he basically insulted us and told us to go away when we said that we're really struggling with the requirements for his class (they're unreasonable, trust me). They give you more work than you can do, but they tell you that you have to do all of it. I'm sure this varies by school and I know some people are feeling okay about it so take my words with a grain of salt.

I put in about 70 hours a week, though this last week I'd say I worked about 13 hours a day (I'm exhausted). Some weeks it's less, sometimes more. The quanitity of the work is a HUGE difference from undergrad. Honours year was rough, but the standards as well as workload increase drastically after undergrad.

I'm finding the work harder than undergrad because you have to think more critically about things, and finally applying knowledge (like seeing clients) is a whole different ballgame.

This probably paints a really stressful picture of PhD programs, but I think it's realistic. You'll be tired, you'll be cranky. Most people cry a lot in grad school (as someone told me on the first day of class). You'll forget to eat, your laundry will pile up, and some days you'll wake up and think "ugh, let me just stay here and not show up to seminar" but most people get through it.

Like my favourite prof always tells me, "it's a marathon, not a sprint." But it does end.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

did/ do you find the workload to be unbearable? how many hours do you study? how does the quantity of the work differ from undergrad? i know a PhD who basically described it as "the work isnt harder, theirs just more of it", is this true? if so, how much more?

The workload can definitely be unbearable at times, some by design, and some by your choice of work.In the beginning it was about taking in mass amounts of information, though as I went through it was more about taking the knowledge, synthesizing a response, and applying it. I'd guess most programs have some weed-out classes in the beginning, but I don't think they are looking to fail you....they just want to make sure you are ready for the long road.

I was lucky that I received excellent training in my undergrad (between the coursework and the extra research I took on) so I was prepared for the workload. It is much more of a marathon than a sprint....so I kept having to remind myself about pacing, as there were many opportunities to do things, but it is easy to overwhelm yourself early on.

I am one of those people who can just 'get' things the first time around, whether it is through lecture or reading, so I didn't spend nearly the amount of time on things as others, BUT I had issues with time management, which made me less efficient and liable for all-nighters. If you can get organized and use your time well, it doesn't have to be as hellish as some experience (myself included). With that being said, that is part of grad school. It is suppose to be the most rigorous academic endeavor you encounter; I think once I embraced the challenges and accepted that I can't get everything done all of the time, it became more manageable.

They give you more work than you can do, but they tell you that you have to do all of it. I'm sure this varies by school and I know some people are feeling okay about it so take my words with a grain of salt.

That has been something I've heard from most grad students I've spoken to during my time here and elsewhere. I think it just comes with the territory.

I'm finding the work harder than undergrad because you have to think more critically about things, and finally applying knowledge (like seeing clients) is a whole different ballgame.

Exactly.

This probably paints a really stressful picture of PhD programs, but I think it's realistic. You'll be tired, you'll be cranky. Most people cry a lot in grad school (as someone told me on the first day of class). You'll forget to eat, your laundry will pile up, and some days you'll wake up and think "ugh, let me just stay here and not show up to seminar" but most people get through it.

Like my favourite prof always tells me, "it's a marathon, not a sprint." But it does end.

Though I don't cry over these things (I might water down my Vodka Tonic!), I definitely had moments throughout my time in grad school where I sat there and really asked myself if all of it was worth it.....thankfully each time I realized that the short-term challenges were worth the long-term benefits.

Ahh....it seems like runner analogies are rampant in programs!!!

-t

 

[positivepsych]

The people I know of fill out all of their schedule by being employed at 2 or more places at a time.
For example I know a LCSW that works 9-5 in a hospital then from 5-later that evening at a private practice.
I know a Ph.D that works as a wellness counselor at a college and has a few private practice appointments afterwards. Another works at a some sort of institute and then has a private practice on the side.

I also agree having a niche really matters.

I agree--working multiple jobs does fill one's schedule, but not very efficiently. The problem is that the hourly rate for most salaried positions is piss-poor. Anywhere from $20/hour at a college counseling center to $40 at places with very ill clients. There are high school-educated SAT tutors I know that make more than $20-40 an hour.

So do the math, a salaried $20-40/hr for 20-40 hours/week + a couple $100+/hour private practice patients on the side is still not going to compare to other doctorate-level health care providers. You're certainly not going to be poor by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not rich either, unless perhaps you get a unique niche and get a great referral base going.

 

[Ollie123]

Wow, I feel lucky in my choice of school.

In stark contrast to Raynee's post, I actually feel like the workload here is extremely manageable. Admittedly, I will not begin seeing clients til second year, but we're only required to carry a caseload of 2 at any given time. With supervision, report writing, etc. I'm sure that will still be a decent time-suck, but I doubt it will overwhelm me.

For me at least, coursework is easy. Yes, there's reading, but here at least its pretty reasonable (seminars are typically 3 articles per class, though you'll have to know them backwards and forwards, lecture-type classes seem to have in the neighborhood of 100-200 pages per week though that obviously varies by topic, and by whether or not you do all of it). I actually do all my coursework, including the reading, because they've put forth great efforts to cut it down here, since it is after all, merely an addendum to the actual graduate education.

My excessive business is more my own doing than the schools - I too am putting in 60+ hours a week, but I'm also fixing to have 3 pubs submitted before my first year is done. I could certainly be getting by doing far less and not feel like a "bad student" but I'm having fun, so why not shoot for the stars Plus, the way things currently look, I will essentially be doing 2 master's theses since there's 2 studies I want to run, and we'll just kind of pick one to designate as the formal thesis and run the other anyways. Again, something that is by NO stretch of the imagination typical or expected, but I've elected to dig my own grave there, so to speak

The work per class is more, but in most cases you'll be taking less classes. My undergrad load was 6-7 classes per semester and here I'm doing 4 as a first year, and likely 3 in future years (well, that's actual classes, not counting thesis credits and the like).

The readings are without a doubt tougher. No more "Mental disorders for dummies" type textbooks, you're expected to read and understand things on the same level that experts in the field do. I only have about 30 pages of neuroscience reading this week, but that will likely take me 4 hours to do because I will need to look up half the stuff in it as I go. My point being that strict page counts are not necessarily a good way to examine workload - I can blitz through 100 pages of ethics reading in an hour or two, and then spend half a day on one article

I'm actually less stressed than I was as an undergrad, but I think that might just be me. I'm genuinely loving what I'm doing, and have a great deal more freedom in terms of doing things that are relevant to my interests/career goals rather than just meeting some arbitrary requirements. The critical thinking stuff that Raynee mentioned is what I absolutely adore about grad school - undergrad was just "memorize this" and it made me absolutely miserable, which made me take longer to do things, more apt to put things off, etc. which made things more stressful. Though I have tons to do here, being happy just sort of lifts all that stress off.

So I hope that paints sort of the other side of things compared to earlier posts. I'm sure I will be stressed at times. Last semester got stressful near finals time since I procrastinated some things I shouldn't have and it ended up taking some time away from my research.

Really, I think it depends on both the individual, and (clearly, from earlier posts) the school. Certainly its more work than undergrad - no one is going out 4 nights a week and sleeping til noon every day. Whether or not you can survive or thrive in an environment like that is another matter entirely though. I can tell you I am happier as a grad student than I ever was as an undergrad, and spending 10-12 hours a day on things doesn't bother me in the slightest, whereas spending that much time as an undergrad was a chore because the classes were often not interesting, not intellectually stimulating, etc.

T4C - that sounds about ideal to me (minus the seeing a few clients). I find myself missing the business stuff - it might be nice to keep a hand in it by running a practice if I can finangle it at some point later on once I get settled into an academic job. Time management will be a major issue getting one off the ground, but good to hear I'm not the only one that is thinking about things like this

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

T4C - that sounds about ideal to me (minus the seeing a few clients). I find myself missing the business stuff - it might be nice to keep a hand in it by running a practice if I can finangle it at some point later on once I get settled into an academic job. Time management will be a major issue getting one off the ground, but good to hear I'm not the only one that is thinking about things like this

I think there is definitely room in the market (somewhat geographically dependent) if you have the right makeup. I love the clinical work, but it wouldn't be enough for me (both time and experience) so I'm trying to plan out other avenues that better meet my needs. Ironically I came into grad school with a pretty different plan than most, but the more I do...the more I am trending more towards academia. I am still far from wanting a tenure track and trad. research path, but I definitely want to teach and stay active in the university system (mentoring/supervising, out-reach programs, etc).

As for sleeping until noon...... I usually have one day a week I choose to sleep in (10am), though I tend to work later on those days. My 2nd and 3rd years were DEFINITELY my busiest....as I had class, research, and a caseload to manage. I had the least amount of sleep and most stress during those years. My 4th year has been a lot more about time management and organization, and less "bulk" work to do. I could be doing more now (I took a break from researching), but I decided to take some time to relax and time for extra classes that will help me down the road. In retrospect, I had more time my first year than I realized, it just took me awhile to strike a balance between reading the material, writing my notes (and using notes from upperclassmen), studying, and doing research.

-t

 

[Ollie123]

but the more I do...the more I am trending more towards academia.
-t

*cackles and mumbles something about the dark side*

Seriously though, I think that's great. One of the biggest problems in this field is the science-practice gap. Things take years, sometimes even decades to trickle down from research into practice, so even when great new treatments become available, it is often years before they're used. Similarly there is plenty of research that seems to be done without any guise of what is reasonable to implement in practice. That assessment may be great for differentiating depression and anxiety, but if it takes 10 hours to administer and costs 10 grand, its not a very useful accomplishment.

I recognize that as someone hellbent on being an ivory tower academic, I'm a part of the problem, but I can't ignore that we desperately need more people who are willing to be that linking factor between the university and the clinic just up the road. There's so much concern about whether we're TRAINED as scientist/practitioners or practitioner/scholars, but what we often forget is that it is just important to maintain an identity with both after we graduate and are out in the field.

 

[docjohng]

Everybody's mileage will vary according to the type of program they're attending, as well as the school.

For me, the first year was actually the easiest. We had a lot of time for extracurricular activities (like socializing and getting to know my fellow students!), but also worked hard. Since the first year you don't see clients, it's just general coursework. Nothing that I felt was particularly challenging, and while I studied and did a lot more reading than I ever did in undergrad, nothing was overwhelming that year.

In 2nd year, things got a little more challenging since I began to see clients. In addition to the part time job, studying, courses (which get progressively more challenging), I started to have less and less free time. Which is fine, since that's what grad school is all about -- studying long hours, reading more than you can imagine, and trying to understand how it all fits together. You also learn that nobody is going to tell you exactly how to do therapy, you just have to go in and start working it out for yourself. Thank goodness for supervision!

Third and fouth years are probably the most challenging. In my program, caseloads went up and so did expectations. Papers got longer and more in-depth. You have to start thinking about your future, internship, long-term career goals. You also have to get your dissertation or research project finalized and written (or spend additional years doing so outside of school, but that'd be on your own dime). And of course, in fourth year in our program, we had our clinical competency exam to pass (which is a whole new stress, yay!). I always thought that if I wasn't clinically competent up until my 4th year (e.g., if I failed the exam), how is it ethical (or right) for the programs to have allowed me to see those dozens of clients prior to the exam? Definitely a bit of a moral disconnect there. But then again, so were a lot of the practicums -- training in community mental health centers where you get to see the poorest and often most in need (e.g., the most severe mental disorders) which were heavily staffed by trainees and students. (But I digress...)

Overall, I found the coursework was never overwhelming, just intensive and required a lot more focus and good time management than in college. In college, you have like 70-80% downtime (flexible wake time for working, friends, relationships, etc.). In grad school, that's more like 10-20% after the first year. And some students spend even more time doing a lot more research or efforts to get published (as seen in this thread).

John