Physical Chemistry?

[sully677]

What does pchem consist of? Is it any harder than Ochem?

Thanks

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[adamg]

Physcial chemistry is the study of physics behind chemical reactions.

It is not a pre-req for med school and is not a recommended class for most med schools, (I have yet to see any med school recommend it)

IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than O-Chem.

Ochem is mostly all reactions, and general theories behind them and almost no math.

P-CHEM is totally different

It may have the word chemistry in it but it is almost all physics and incredible hard math.

Unless you are excellent at calculus and have a desire to solve the Schrodinger Equation, (possibly on a mobius strip) then don't take it.

The mean test score in most P-chem classes are in the 40's or 50's though I have heard of some classes where a score in the high 30's was an A.

P-chem will almost certainly hurt your GPA and the material covered will not be on the MCAT or taught in med schools, (way to indepth)

Take it only if you are a masochist.

 

[lord_jeebus]

I took P-Chem for Chem majors as some form of P-Chem was required for bio majors and I didn't want to take the very premed heavy "easy" P-Chem class. It ended up being one of my favorite college classes.

I enjoy physics and equation-heavy classes, and found it much easier than Organic. I memorized very little and by knowing how to derive the equations was able to reason most things out from basic concepts. It's a different kind of thinking so it's hard to say which would be easier for you.

 

[notepreocupes]

imagine all the really hard parts of gen chem X 10. way harder than ochem, which is taught mostly like a bio class (memorization, theory). I would really stay away from that class unless you need it for your degree, or maybe I just has a really hard pchem class.

 

[wolvbb]

think gen chem on steroids

 

[Post Hill]

Georgetown's 2009 Application Guide says P-Chem isn't required, but that it would be useful, and Stanford recommends the course.

Anyways, P-chem isn't really a chemistry course as far as what you'd think of being in a chemistry course from organic and gen chem. It's really a physics course about chemistry. Think thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, etc. It probably varies by school, but I'd say you'd need at least two semesters of calculus (and differential equations might not hurt) before taking the course (at least a chem major version).

As far as the grades go, unless you love and are good at physics and calculus, your GPA will in all likelihood suffer. My class when I took it was pretty small (8 people) and we had only two A's WITH the curve.

 

[175961]

I have a few friends that were required to take it and couldnt understand why anyone would do so unless they were required to. Of all the classes they took it was by the far the most difficult they encountered. I wouldnt even begin to considering setting foot into a physical chemistry class

 

[FSAP]

So, I took it last semester. Understood half the stuff. It's mostly calculus, a lot of it. The hardest for me was assigning point groups though. We had 20 people in a class, mostly ChemE's and the average was in the 60s without the curve, unusually high for this course. I really liked the class, but if you did not do well in calculus and physics, I would not recommend it. I got an A, so it doesn't have to ruin you GPA.

 

[juicymonster]

I took this class about a year ago. On our first exam, the professor gave us a four hour time frame to come in and take the exam at our convenience. People who came in exactly on time were still sitting there staring at the paper after four hours. Does that answer your question?

I kid (sort of). It's hard, but you'll get through it.

 

[njbmd]

What does pchem consist of? Is it any harder than Ochem?

Thanks

Physical Chemistry is usually a two-semester course taken by chemistry majors that covers the following:

First Semester:

• Gas Laws
• Thermodynamics
• Laws that affect Liquids and Solids
• Chemical and Biochemical Equilibrium
• Electrochemistry
• Properties of Biomolecules
• Solution properties such as surface tension

Second Semester:

• Quantum Mechanics
• Group Theory applied to molecular orbital theory
• Reaction Mechanics
• Statistical Mechanics
• Vibrational, rotational and electronic spectra

Physical Chemistry is not a difficult course if you are well-prepared for this course. This means that you have sufficient math and physics background to understand the concepts presented here.

This is not a course for people who have not taken or who do not thoroughly understand both differential and integral calculus. This is not a course for people who have taken physics that was not calculus based.

I personally found this course far more enjoyable than Organic Chemistry though I did well in both O-Chem and P-Chem. I did take P-Chem after completing three semesters of Calculus and one year of Applied Differential Equations in addition to completion of General Physics for scientists and engineers and Pascal computer programming (wrote most of my own programs that analyzed my data from P-Chem lab).

Do not underestimate the need for being able to utilize your math as a tool for both understanding and applying the concepts of P-Chem. If you cannot accomplish this, then wait until you have a solid math background before you take P-Chem or major in something else besides chemistry. I saw too many pre-med chemistry majors end their careers with a failure of P-Chem. If you struggled through math and struggled through Physics, leave this course alone and take something else.

 

[ChemGrad08]

^^ knows what they're talking about, I just wanted to add that a lot of places do Quantum first (there are historical reasons to do it the other way around that are no longer true, so some places have changed and some haven't). And, often point group/symmetry things are left for inorganic and only briefly covered in QM.

 

[rowerlauren]

P Chem = Hell

If you are an exceptional math student then you might be capable of it. But at my school it is the hardest course offered. Imagine taking all the kids that have aced every single science course and sticking them into a class, then redistributing the grades to have an average of a B... This class made me want to cry on a regular basis, and we had homeworks that took >24hrs/week to do as a team effort.

 

[MrWizard]

I was a chem major and required to take PChem with 20 chem majors and one bio major.

Our tests consisted of 4 questions, one of which I usually knew how to do, one or two that i could guess on, and one that no one in the class could do. Considering partial credit the average was around a 30 on most of our tests. (Don't get scared, these grades were of course curved up, although no one got an A in quantum my year).

The frustrating thing about pchem, was that in quantum if you didnt know the exactly correct approach there were many problems that you couldn't even start on. It was the first class i ever had questions that i really couldn't write anything down for.

That being said, thermo is much easier and very enjoyable if you like using your 5th semester calculus in the real world.

Bottom line, if you take it: Be prepared to work hard, but don't freak out, most professors understand it is confusing and you will ultimently be graded against others in your class so don't worry about your 25 if everone else is getting around there too.

 

[bodonid]

As far as the grades go, unless you love and are good at physics and calculus, your GPA will in all likelihood suffer. My class when I took it was pretty small (8 people) and we had only two A's WITH the curve.

Not to nit-pick here, but 2/8 = 25% As. I would have killed for 25% As in just about any hard-science class.

Edit- Also, FYI P-Chem is impossibly difficult. I took it with a couple other science classes, and ended up dropping. That said, I took it as a sophomore and all I did that year was party, but PCHEM is just conceptually opaque unless you are really into it.

 

[203712]

Physcial chemistry is the study of physics behind chemical reactions.

It is not a pre-req for med school and is not a recommended class for most med schools, (I have yet to see any med school recommend it)

IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT than O-Chem.

Ochem is mostly all reactions, and general theories behind them and almost no math.

P-CHEM is totally different

It may have the word chemistry in it but it is almost all physics and incredible hard math.

Unless you are excellent at calculus and have a desire to solve the Schrodinger Equation, (possibly on a mobius strip) then don't take it.

The mean test score in most P-chem classes are in the 40's or 50's though I have heard of some classes where a score in the high 30's was an A.

P-chem will almost certainly hurt your GPA and the material covered will not be on the MCAT or taught in med schools, (way to indepth)

Take it only if you are a masochist.

pchem WILL help you on the MCAT. I mean it stands for physical chemistry...theres a section on the mcat called physical sciences...

I loved pchem, but dont mistake it for ochem. I also loved calc and physics....get the idea? Ochem is more memory, pchem requires indepth understanding and math manipulation.

That being said, if you can ace and outright understand pchem, you'll know your physics most of your gen chem! I got a 13 in the PS section...my highest section on the mcat, it wasnt a fluke either, i averaged a 13 and even scored a few 15's on the AAMC practice tests. If you get the chance and are confident in your math/physics abilities, take Pchem, kill it, and i promise you atleast a 11 in the PS section.

Goodluck:h and pchem isn't required to get an 11...im sure you can do without it, but it will promise you an 11.

 

[rowerlauren]

pchem WILL help you on the MCAT. I mean it stands for physical chemistry...theres a section on the mcat called physical sciences...

I loved pchem, but dont mistake it for ochem. I also loved calc and physics....get the idea? Ochem is more memory, pchem requires indepth understanding and math manipulation.

That being said, if you can ace and outright understand pchem, you'll know your physics most of your gen chem! I got a 13 in the PS section...my highest section on the mcat, it wasnt a fluke either, i averaged a 13 and even scored a few 15's on the AAMC practice tests. If you get the chance and are confident in your math/physics abilities, take Pchem, kill it, and i promise you atleast a 11 in the PS section.

Goodluck:h and pchem isn't required to get an 11...im sure you can do without it, but it will promise you an 11.

1. It will not help you on the MCAT. I'm sorry of Quantum on the MCAT? Seriously? Then the MCAT would take about 30 hrs trying to solve ridiculous integrals (at least that was my p chem experience).

2. Yes you may need physics and gen chem to do well in P Chem but it won't do anything for your MCAT score.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I learned tons of P-Chem throughout my physics major, directly and indirectly (that is, I sometimes just realized I could apply what I was learning to chemistry). I actually more or less taught 2 people the course despite not actually having taken it. As was mentioned, P-Chem will definitely help you on the MCAT. It'll help you understand all the orbital junk and thermo thrown at you in Gen Chem.

 

[betheltim]

Wow, there is an incredible amount of assumption in this thread, including the definition of "Physical Chemistry..."

It appears the vast majority that have responded to your (OP's) post have had varying degrees of curriculum and even their experience with it in their previous classes...

From people saying it's the hardest chemistry class offered at their school, to those with four-question tests, it's clear nearly everyone's experiences, memories, and impressions of the class differ considerably.

Thus, please take my anecdotal evidence at face value, as with everyone else's. Every school is different and cirruculum varies.

A good indicator of the characteristics of the class is the ACS standardized test and previous students' experiences. Does your school TAKE the test? Does your school score well on it? Is it a large or small class?

In MY experience, physical chemistry I consisted of thermodynamics, statistical thermodynamics (almost a bridge between physical chemistry I and physicsal chemistry II/quantum chemistry), and kinetics (as a whole). Physical chemistry II consists of quantum chemistry, involving expansions on the things you may have experienced in general chemistry, such as quantum phenomenon (atomic orbitals, quantum numbers, and atomic structure and trends).

To ME, physical chemistry was, in general, significantly more abstract than organic chemistry, whereas organic chemistry was much more spatial/visual. Of course, elements of both are included in each, but that was my general idea of both.

That being said, physical chemistry, as mentioned, requires a foundation in general physics and calculus.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing I would say based on my observations and experiences, is that I completely skipped over the qunatum/atomic/orbital sections in my MCAT studies, based on my exposure in general chemistry and general physics (though I did some exposure in modern physics, advanced math methods, and physical chemistry, but it seemed that its contribution was minimal).

Anyway, now that I wrote a book, ask people at your school if you're curious and see how the students do in the class; that will be your most effective indicator of curriculum, performance, and difficulty.

If you have any questions feel free to PM me, and I'm sorry if I haven't added anything relevant or worthwhile to the discussion!

 

[shiftingmirage]

P-chem is the most difficult class I have encountered. That being said the class is definately do-able. Just plan to devote your entire life to the class. I don't know if it's the same everywhere, but the lab reports were ridiculous. We had 5/quarter, got two weeks to write them. Mine averaged 29 pages or so single spaced.

I will say, after being through p-chem I believe I can accomplish anything. The long hours also allowed me to become good friends with the other individeuals in my class. So its not all bad.

 

[rowerlauren]

]I will say, after being through p-chem I believe I can accomplish anything. The long hours also allowed me to become good friends with the other individeuals in my class. So its not all bad.

This is most certainly true... I know everyone in my major thanks to this class. And P Chem (Quantum which is harder than thermo at my school) and Biochem in one semester makes you hate life a lot, just my experience. Now that I'm done with it med school curriculum cannot compare in terms of difficulty, maybe more material.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Quantum chem...now that's a hard class. Oh God. My biochem TA showed me his homework, and it was completely absurd. We're talking a good 15+ hours of work for each assignment, and that's assuming you know what you're doing.

 

[shiftingmirage]

Quantum chem...now that's a hard class. Oh God. My biochem TA showed me his homework, and it was completely absurd. We're talking a good 15+ hours of work for each assignment, and that's assuming you know what you're doing.

I spent ~10 hours doing this problem set for quantum and couldn't figure out a couple of the problems (to be fair it was 3 weeks worth of problems). I ran into some friends who were about to start it and asked if I could join them. They finished it in an hour. I'm like...I HATE YOU!

I found quantum easier than the thermo/kinetics, but even in gen chem I did not like thermo and the prof I had for quantum was much better than the one for thermo/kinetics.

 

[Post Hill]

Not to nit-pick here, but 2/8 = 25% As. I would have killed for 25% As in just about any hard-science class.

Edit- Also, FYI P-Chem is impossibly difficult. I took it with a couple other science classes, and ended up dropping. That said, I took it as a sophomore and all I did that year was party, but PCHEM is just conceptually opaque unless you are really into it.

I know, 25% of the class getting an A isn't technically bad, but when the students in the class are supposed to be the brighter of the chem majors in the college, you start to run into trouble. The two high scores were tied at ~82%.

But, even if you're not taking the calculus-based P-chem and you decide to take the p-chem for non-chem majors, it'll still be a mess. From talking with the prof from that class, his indication was that most of them were hopeless.

The point: don't take it unless you have to or you think you'll enjoy it. The tests will almost undoubtedly be ridiculous and if you have lab reports, they'll be just as ridiculous, if not more so. If you have a strict prof, the class will be that much harder on top of everything else.

 

[Bacchus]

This is most certainly true... I know everyone in my major thanks to this class. And P Chem (Quantum which is harder than thermo at my school) and Biochem in one semester makes you hate life a lot, just my experience. Now that I'm done with it med school curriculum cannot compare in terms of difficulty, maybe more material.

My curriculum amasses thermo, molecular structure biochem, analytical chem, and microbiology into one semester. I feel your pain.

 

[ej37]

PChem is definitely harder than Ochem. For Orgo you can pretty much slack off and learn everything you need to the day or two before your exams... the concepts are relatively simple and if you can understand the principles of electron pushing learning the required reactions won't be hard at all.

Pchem is a different animal... depending on where you go to school, you will have to learn to use Mathematica(this guy is a REAL treat) to solve math problems so complicated they require a $1000 computer program to do it. Pchem WILL sink your GPA, that is virtually a guarentee. Quantum Mechanics, Thermodynamics, and Statistical Mechanics are the three main branches.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Mathematica is pretty badass once you learn how to use it. MathCAD is damn awesome, too and lets you put together some really impressive, professional-looking work. The latter is incredibly finicky and difficult to use if you haven't had a lot of experience with it, though. One of my friends had to actually learn how to program for his PChem 2 lab. Unbelievable. I'm glad I never had to slog through that mess.

 

[Gut Shot]

What does pchem consist of?

First semester: sodomy.
Second semester: sodomy without all the affection.

 

[skyjump]

I think people are overselling the difficulty of P-chem, I was a biochem major and had to take three semesters of Pchem, a semster of thermo, a semester of quantum, and a semester of physical biochem with statistical mechanics spread over the first two semesters. (chem majors had to take 4 semesters, they had a lab which was insane, glad I skipped out of that). It was different than any chem you will have to take because it is heavily theoretical and heavily math based. The essential key to doing well in the class is knowing your math, you really need to have taken multivariate calculus and at least one semester of differential equations to truly understand the math. However, most schools just require two semesters of calculus before you take the class because most of the concepts, such as partial differentials and multi-level integrals can be taught easily (though its hard to have a twenty or thirty minute review of the stuff and then be thrown into hours of problems).

That being said, P-chem is probably harder than O-chem for most people because you can memorize your way through Ochem. If you are a "math person" Pchem can be easier because it is simply math. You don't have to memorize anything 'cept maybe a couple formulas depending on your teacher. Actually now that I think about it, I had a math major friend that took graduate level pchem without ever taking any chem and got an A becuase it was just all math problems to him.

Personally, I liked Pchem more since there wasn't any memorization just an hour or so of math every week, I thought the hardest chem class was inorganic just about everyone got a C in that class, couple of us scraped by with B's and two people got As. It's all personal preference I guess.

 

[gplex86]

I thought it was easier than Orgo. Really nice to see physics and chemistry come together. While it may refresh your memory of genchem for the MCAT, you won't learn anything for it that you shouldn't have already known.