Physical Therapy vs. Chiropractic

[facetguy]

Did anyone else notice that these references are all about spinal manipulation and not about chiropractic. A PT performing SM would get equivalent results. So given that PTs are evidence based and DCs are quackery based (leg checks, AK, Tofteness meters, questionable claims, etc.) why would anyone want to refer to a DC except in a rural underserved area?

Because not everyone is blinded by bitterness like you are.

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[ClinicalAdvisor]

I was under the impression the DCM idea faded a long time ago. WS dropped the idea shortly after it was brought up.

 

[cdmguy]

The state of New Mexico recently tried to resurrect it with new legislation but the DC associations mobilized support and it was killed. The proposed scope of practice was bizarre: injecting homeopathic and other solutions and a few oral drugs.

 

[goyo1010]

Gotta say, I had some popcorn, candy, and a coke in hand (hands?) halfway through this thread.

=]

 

[cdmguy]

Like any good cult, chiropractic's answer to criticism is always deflection by ignoring original source material and using red herring fallacies to attack their credibility with mudslinging using real or invented details. Skeptical former chiropractors are always assumed to be "practice failures" who can't hack either running a chiropractic practice or when the nontransferrability of skills and high unemployment comes in, it becomes "any job". MDs who criticize chiropractic and chiropractors who promote evidence based diagnosis are "sell outs to the insurance industry" out to deny claims and limit the amazing unproveable healing power of chiropractic which dooms the world to preventable mental, physical and spiritual diseases. Chiropractic is really a religion rather than legitimate health care and its stagnant low untilization rate of 7% proves it.

DD Palmer's Religion of Chiropractic
Eating God's Way (a christian chiropractic cult called "Maximized Living")

The DE experience strongly emphasizes the Lasting Purpose Principle and encourages all to embrace its life enhancing qualities. The LP Principle simply stated is the act and mindset of loving, serving and giving out of your own abundance in accordance with God`s will. Dr. Sid E Williams and Dr Nell K Williams, founders of Dynamic Essentials and Life University, concisely spell out at each DE Seminar how the LP principle and mindset should be applied.-Website from Sid Williams DC's practice management group. Williams is a former president of the ICA and founded Life University the largest chiropractic school in the USA. http://www.lifede.com/

"I bet we can find 1,000,000 People who Support Chiropractic" Facebook group promoted videos:

Chiropractic as a blindness cure
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGROaYx0NJU[/YOUTUBE]

Chiropractic purported to cure paralysis in a newborn
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo1nzDnbcUU[/YOUTUBE]


So all you med students could save a lot of time by quitting medical school, enroll in chiropractic school and learn how to really heal people with your hands and imagination.

Hey facetguy, how many people have you restored cranial nerve function to or cured paralysis in? I'm sure the forum is dying to hear the anecdotes. Oh yes, you don't have any miracles in your office since you are the lone ranger defending evidence based chiropractic which you apparently taught yourself because it isn't standardized in chiropractic educational standards.

The real reason for the miracles, misdiagnosis from subluxation diagnosing *****s and/or poor study design,

At present, there have been no appropriately controlled studies that establish that spinal manipulation or any other form of somatic therapy represents a valid curative strategy for the treatment of any internal organ disease. Furthermore, current scientific knowledge also fails to support the existence of a plausible biological mechanism that could account for a causal segmentally or regionally related "somato-visceral disease" relationship. On the other hand, it has now been firmly established that somatic dysfunction is notorious in its ability to create overt signs and symptoms that can mimic, or simulate (rather than cause), internal organ disease. -Nansel D. Somatic dysfunction and the phenomenon of visceral disease simulation: a probable explanation for the apparent effectiveness of somatic therapy in patients presumed to be suffering from true visceral disease. J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 1995 Jul-Aug;18(6):379-97.

Don't believe liars who misrepresent that these are minority views in chiropractic.

ACA and ICA: It's the Same Thing!

 

[facetguy]

Hey facetguy, how many people have you restored cranial nerve function to or cured paralysis in? I'm sure the forum is dying to hear the anecdotes. Oh yes, you don't have any miracles in your office since you are the lone ranger defending evidence based chiropractic which you apparently taught yourself because it isn't standardized in chiropractic educational standards.

Don't believe liars who misrepresent that these are minority views in chiropractic.

I knew it was just a matter of time before you chimed in again, since nobody else seems to give a crap about the bull**** you post in here.

And I don't think you are in a position to call me a liar, since all you ever post on here are random clippings from various websites. As we've been through many times, you crumble when we stick to the available literature. Everyone reading your posts knows this, and that's why nobody is inquisitive about your nonsense.

Dude, get a hobby. You are obsessed with your failure; get over it and move on.

 

[cdmguy]

There there, I know the truth hurts guy. I'm playing my little violin for you.

I notice you didn't post one piece of evidence that contradicts what I posted yet you claim I'm wrong. Nice bias there, it must beat having to face reality.

If I had a dollar for every quack who feigned concern for me as a ruse to get me to stop criticizing them I could cover first year medical school expenses.

Keep misrepresenting issues and lying about the evidence, really. Half of all MDs can't interpret research, someone might believe you.

 

[facetguy]

There there, I know the truth hurts guy. I'm playing my little violin for you.

I notice you didn't post one piece of evidence that contradicts what I posted yet you claim I'm wrong. Nice bias there, it must beat having to face reality.

If I had a dollar for every quack who feigned concern for me as a ruse to get me to stop criticizing them I could cover first year medical school expenses.

Keep misrepresenting issues and lying about the evidence, really. Half of all MDs can't interpret research, someone might believe you.

For future reference:

We've been through this a dozen times.

And you ain't going to medical school.

 

[cdmguy]

You never proved anything, except your own hubris.

In addition to being a liar you're also a jerk and a bully. I reported your post and hope others do too by clicking the report button. I hope the moderators ban you from SDN. Much like your chiropractic vocation, you contribute nothing to the forum.

 

[facetguy]

Happy Easter!

 

[facetguy]

You never proved anything, except your own hubris.

In addition to being a liar you're also a jerk and a bully. I reported your post and hope others do too by clicking the report button. I hope the moderators ban you from SDN. Much like your chiropractic vocation, you contribute nothing to the forum.

Wait, you reported me?? That's interesting, considering you do nothing but sling insults at me in your posts. Par for the course, I guess.

 

[ColoDPT]

You guys should do something more constructive. It shouldn't be PT vs. chiro. Truth is, you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a good manual-based PT and an evidenced-based chiro. All the bashing is old.

 

[facetguy]

You guys should do something more constructive. It shouldn't be PT vs. chiro. Truth is, you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a good manual-based PT and an evidenced-based chiro. All the bashing is old.

This is my feeling. The artificial 'vs.' thing is a bit silly. But there are those few who hold such personal resentment toward chiropractic that it blinds them with bias and doesn't allow reason to take hold.

 

[cdmguy]

Sorry but the problems persist. All of those quotes above are current. "Evidence Based" guidelines are simply not taught in chiropractic programs while subluxation diagnosis, false biomechanics and quacky treatments are core curriculum. So by equating PT with this nonsense just because they share some manipulation procedures you're making a big mistake. Not speaking up means more people will be stroked out from overutilization of neck manipulation. Chiropractors don't believe in clinical prediction rules.

Ask a victim...

"Hercules" star Kevin Sorbo stroked without consent by unnecessary chiropractic manipulation

Sorbo part II

Victims of Chiropractic Abuse
​

What if it was your family member? Would you be comfortable with the chiropractic excuse that the small risk justifies subjecting patients to never ending unnecessary manipulations to pad bills and seal their faith in chiropractic? If you are then you're in the wrong field.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyo9Wj_vkUY[/YOUTUBE]​

Look at all the rooms at Life University (the largest chiropractic college) named after quackery:

• Maximized Living Room C1 7-8:30pm (christian "Body by God" cult)
• Applied Kinesiology Room 201B 11-12pm (quackery)
• Gonstead Room Mod 7A & 7B 6:30-8:30pm (false biomechanics circa 1940s)
• Thompson Room 109B 11-1pm (leg check quackery circa 1950?)

And look at how they indoctrinate them using loaded language (cult indoctrination method) to be excited about saving the world with this garbage: (same link)

• 100% Chiropractic Room 108C 5-6pm
• Life 24 Hours Room 112B 11-1pm
• Get the Big Idea Room 149C 11-1pm (The big idea is that chiropractic cures visceral disease, psychological disease and criminality)
• Innate Room 108C 11-12pm (vitalism-chiropractic cures all disease circa 1895)

 

[facetguy]

Sorry but the problems persist. All of those quotes above are current. "Evidence Based" guidelines are simply not taught in chiropractic programs while subluxation diagnosis, false biomechanics and quacky treatments are core curriculum. So by equating PT with this nonsense just because they share some manipulation procedures you're making a big mistake. Not speaking up means more people will be stroked out from overutilization of neck manipulation. Chiropractors don't believe in clinical prediction rules.

Ask a victim...

"Hercules" star Kevin Sorbo stroked without consent by unnecessary chiropractic manipulation

Sorbo part II

Victims of Chiropractic Abuse

Here's a perfect example of trying to use an emotionally charged issue to promote the notion that chiropractic is dangerous; it's a non-original attempt at that. We've seen you do this over and over now. Instead of using the most complete and recent studies and admitting that manipulation-related stroke is extremely rare, so rare that it has proven difficult to even study, you link a video of a stroke victim and grossly extrapolate. You tell us that you are all into evidence-based practice, yet you continue to find random website links and hyperbolous videos. Stroke is of course a serious adverse event, and nobody would say otherwise. But trying to paint the picture that patients are dropping like flies at the hands of chiropractors is simply ridiculous. Attacking chiropractic from the safety angle will get you nowhere, as we've now seen with you for, what, years?

Discussing these issues with you has become a complete waste of time because you simply can't stick to the current science. You're like that little kid whose only retort is "I know you are but what am I?".

 

[cdmguy]

Here's a perfect example of trying to use an emotionally charged issue to promote the notion that chiropractic is dangerous; it's a non-original attempt at that. We've seen you do this over and over now. Instead of using the most complete and recent studies and admitting that manipulation-related stroke is extremely rare, so rare that it has proven difficult to even study, you link a video of a stroke victim and grossly extrapolate. You tell us that you are all into evidence-based practice, yet you continue to find random website links and hyperbolous videos. Stroke is of course a serious adverse event, and nobody would say otherwise. But trying to paint the picture that patients are dropping like flies at the hands of chiropractors is simply ridiculous. Attacking chiropractic from the safety angle will get you nowhere, as we've now seen with you for, what, years?

Discussing these issues with you has become a complete waste of time because you simply can't stick to the current science. You're like that little kid whose only retort is "I know you are but what am I?".

You buy in to the party line that chiropractic overutilization of neck manipulation doesn't cause strokes. Your analysis is based. You hide the fact that the "research" you mention has been found to be methodically flawed (see Ernst article).

Ernst writes,

"The Cassidy study is a valuable contribution to the debate about chiropractic's safety but it is by no means a compelling proof for the harmlessness of chiropractic neck manipulation. In fact, the balance of the currently available evidence would seem to point in the opposite direction." (Ernst, E. Vascular accidents after chiropractic spinal manipulation: Myth or reality? Perfusion 2010; 23:73-74.)

However, even if we overlook the stroke connection there would still be the overutilization issue which you dodged. I'm not interested in talking to you further about this-you're too biased and I'm not going to change your mind. You never posted your identity so for all likelihood you push patients on to lifetime maintenance care as well (most chiropractors do because its so lucrative and fits the vitalistic belief system). But of course you won't stop posting because you feel duty bound to defend your vocation to the death-after all without subluxation and vitalistic promises there is no unique niche for the chiropractor and the field must disappear.

 

[cdmguy]

If anyone wants a good look at the cult mentality of chiropractic read this "spizzerinctum" magazine article by a chiropractor:

http://www.nbchiro.com/pdf/schubel.pdf

It's interesting seeing how deluded the author is pretending that chiropractic will eventually be vindicated, in complete ignorance of all the outcome studies against it. So he frames the UK as being in the "dark ages" because they reject quackery and instead pushes chiropractic on more ignorant third world countries.

Oh and here are a few more nail's in the coffin of the belief that these are minority views, a list of chiropractic educational institutions and companies supporting one practice management company that promotes quackery:

http://www.nbchiro.com/sponsors.html

A chiropractor who graduated from Life University recently wrote a book claiming medicine discriminates against chiropractors solely for financial reasons. No mention is made of the false biomechanics and vitalistic quackery. The book has a comments page with kudos from chiropractic college officials who write that they are going to make it required reading.

The Medical War Against Chiropractors

 

[facetguy]

If anyone wants a good look at the cult mentality of chiropractic read this "spizzerinctum" magazine article by a chiropractor:

http://www.nbchiro.com/pdf/schubel.pdf

It's interesting seeing how deluded the author is pretending that chiropractic will eventually be vindicated, in complete ignorance of all the outcome studies against it. So he frames the UK as being in the "dark ages" because they reject quackery and instead pushes chiropractic on more ignorant third world countries.

Oh and here are a few more nail's in the coffin of the belief that these are minority views, a list of chiropractic educational institutions and companies supporting one practice management company that promotes quackery:

http://www.nbchiro.com/sponsors.html

A chiropractor who graduated from Life University recently wrote a book claiming medicine discriminates against chiropractors solely for financial reasons. No mention is made of the false biomechanics and vitalistic quackery. The book has a comments page with kudos from chiropractic college officials who write that they are going to make it required reading.

The Medical War Against Chiropractors

Dude, are these posts a joke? Maybe if I wait a few minutes, you'll edit them out like you do all your posts.

The first link: First of all, where the hell did you even find that? How much time do you spend (I'm betting most of the day) looking for stuff like this? I've never heard of that magazine, if that's what it is, nor the subject of the article. Is this supposed to be some powerful smoking gun?

The second link: This is apparently an organization that promotes chiropractic in some way. Again, it's an organization that I've never heard of and I doubt that it has very much influence. But to your point: Is it really that shoking that there are businesses that offer chiropractic-related services (website development, software, billing, etc.) that may wish to advertise to a group of chiropractors? That constitutes "nails in the coffin"? Seriously??

And your third link: Have you read the book? Have you even flipped through its pages? It's a book about the long history of chiropractors fighting for licensure, fighting for insurance inclusion, etc. Chiropractors used to go to jail back in the day, but they persevered. And the AMA did exert a concerted effort to eliminate the chiropractic profession...there was a well-publicized entire legal case about that, Sherlock. This book appears to recount those difficult years in chiropractic history. Now go back and re-read your comments above; WTF are you talking about? It's a history book, for goodness sake.

Just how fixated on chiropractic are you? How much time and effort you must spend finding these obscure references (that mean nothing). It's astonishing and perhaps reflective of a real disturbance.

Bro, please keep posting crap like this. You are doing me a favor.

 

[Jarrodmac10]

I'm just happy I got into PT school

 

[cdmguy]

facet, I'm tired of responding to you. It's obvious you don't read the posts carefully and are just fabricating things to fit your own deluded belief system.

Good choice Jarrod. Best of luck!

An once of prevention (not becoming a chiropractor) is worth a lifetime of cure (career change after wasting time and money) in this case.