Air Force Physicians becoming PJ's?

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deuist

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I've been watching a show on Netflix called "Inside Combat Rescue" where a group of PJ's in Afghanistan are followed for 2 months. In one of the episodes, one of the medics mentions that he went to medical school, but no other information is given. Have any of you ever heard of physicians becoming PJ's? I know of TCCET, but have never heard of docs going so far outside of the wire.

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That seems like a horrible misuse of resources.

Then again, the military being what it is, I can't say I'd be too shocked, either.
 
sure he didn't say "medic school?"

the chances of a doc being a flight medic or PJ or anything else of the sort asymptotically approaches zero.

--your friendly neighborhood "yeah i dropped out of medschool to do this instead, medschool was too easy!" caveman
 
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You're free to enlist, the government cannot force you to commission into the Medical Corps. If you join as a physician, they're not going to send a you to expensive schooling to play around. Also keep in mind that two years out of clinical practice is going to hurt your medical career.

There are occasionally physicians in special operations working as medic but they were 19D's, PJ's, etc first and then went to medical school. They choose to continue as enlisted personal afterward in order to stay in the community. The two specific examples I know of both were Reserve Component after medical school.
 
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sure he didn't say "medic school?"

I re-watched it just to make sure. He was talking about someone else on his team and said, "Since we were in medical school together." He could have meant medic school, although he does mention later that he's comfortable with trauma. If he really did medical school, I wonder if he even bothered doing residency.
 
Then again, I've heard rad techs and medical assistants refer to their respective "medical schools."
 
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sure he didn't say "medic school?"

the chances of a doc being a flight medic or PJ or anything else of the sort asymptotically approaches zero.

--your friendly neighborhood "yeah i dropped out of medschool to do this instead, medschool was too easy!" caveman

I progressed to RL (Readiness Level)-1 as a UH-60 A/L crewmember and infrequently flew combat missions- day and NVG- in the medic seat during my deployments when I wasn't flying in the back.

As far as the PJ's I don't know of docs ever going out on missions with them but then again it wouldn't have been hard to pack another leg-dangling desperado out the open door of the pavehawks. Every time we passed each other taxiing out they reminded me of a clown car.

- ex 61N
 
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The AirForce is trying to make the TCCET model work similar to the British model; a point of care critical care transport service. And they did put an ER doc on it. Around the time the most recent Inside Combat Rescue show was being filmed, the first AF TCCET team was over in Afghanistan. Problem was, the AF sent them over but there wasn't an airframe for them to use. So they sat in an office for months, never actually went to get a patient from the field. It was declared a resounding success. I know the show interviewed the ER doc on that team at one point when the PJs brought a bunch to Bagram... not sure if that's who you saw. But if it was, then yea, medical school might have been used accurately.
 
Who did you talk to to get this all set up?
I set it up myself. I was an operational flight surgeon assigned to the helo BN that had organic medevac and case vac assets. My first tour I was the medical director for all of RC-South and RC-SW. I was expected to fly regularly as a crew member to maintain proficiency and flew hundreds of additional missions teamed with the flight medic.

If you are not organically assigned to a helo outfit it is going to be hard for you to fly because you are not in anyone's chain of command. The exception for the USAF anyways would be the C-130 evacuations from BAF and KAF to LRMC.

Ex 61N
 
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I progressed to RL (Readiness Level)-1 as a UH-60 A/L crewmember and infrequently flew combat missions- day and NVG- in the medic seat during my deployments when I wasn't flying in the back.

As far as the PJ's I don't know of docs ever going out on missions with them but then again it wouldn't have been hard to pack another leg-dangling desperado out the open door of the pavehawks. Every time we passed each other taxiing out they reminded me of a clown car.

- ex 61N

What does RL-1 mean? What does it qualify you to do? Allows you to be a formal part of the crew? If so, what does that allow you to do that you couldn't as a passenger?
 
I re-watched it just to make sure. He was talking about someone else on his team and said, "Since we were in medical school together." He could have meant medic school, although he does mention later that he's comfortable with trauma. If he really did medical school, I wonder if he even bothered doing residency.

Do you mean working with PJs or actually going through the pipeline to become a PJ/CRO after medical school?

The former is far more likely unless they were already a PJ before medical school then continued to work with their unit after graduation. I know of a few people who were reserve PJs before med school then continued working as a PJ afterwards. I've never heard of any AF physician being able to enter the pipeline for multiple reasons as stated above (misuse of resources and training).

Some medics for one reason or another refer to medic training as "medical school" so its possible.
 
I've been watching a show on Netflix called "Inside Combat Rescue" where a group of PJ's in Afghanistan are followed for 2 months. In one of the episodes, one of the medics mentions that he went to medical school, but no other information is given. Have any of you ever heard of physicians becoming PJ's? I know of TCCET, but have never heard of docs going so far outside of the wire.
I've seen the series recently and I'm fairly certain that he was referring to his medic school. These particular jobs (18D/PJ/Recon HM) are for enlisted personnel only and unless there is a billet (job slot) for an officer then they are not going to waste a training slot on them. And the military is not going to willing allow an officer to lat move into an enlisted billet (though if they resign their commission they can't stop them). I've heard of a few instances where a physician will be attached to a SOF unit for certain missions, but usually they are not combat missions and these are few and far in between. I've also heard of civilian physicians enlisting to become SOF medics, but they have to give up their title and practice as a doctor in order to play soldier.

BTW, when watching the show, keep in mind that the mission of the PJ's in the show are not the norm (they were basically an ambulance service). I felt a little bad for these guys. Their bread and butter is high-risk search and rescue, extractions from treacherous terrains and conditions, or as medics for other SOF teams (e.g. SEALs). Instead they got to spend a deployment doing the same work as a normal CASEVAC unit. A bit of a waste of their training and expertise, IMHO.
 
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My default opinion of physicians serving in these roles can be summed up thusly: the line needs doctors, not medical corps doofuses who think they're at adventure summer camp.

Putting doctors in these field roles offers no real capability that can't be provided by a capable and experienced medic or Corpsman, but it's at higher cost and substantial risk to a scarce asset. As a taxpayer and a sensible human being, I think it's clown-shoes, pants-on-head, helmet-worthy ******ed.


For the physicians who volunteer and want to do it, I can see some of the appeal, but any commander who permits it should be relieved and slapped.
 
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Not all, but I as well have met the medics or 18D guys and etc who will definately blur the line and refer to their medical training as medical school and the younger fresh ones go as far as alomst feeling they are on par with an attending. They associated the freedom to do "procedures" as being a doctor. They fail, like most, to fully appreciate the training a physican goes through and the amount of responsibility associated with it. End of the day I wouldn't want some SF medic viewing himself as an equal to an attending and I can gurantee they won't view you as an equal apart of their team.

Basically the additional levels of medical training individuals get beyond AIT medic training is really just authorization for them to do more and more crazier things within whatever the regulations are for their unit.

Best bet to be involved in "exciting" experiences in the military would be doing the run of the mill medevac missions if your commander allows it.

The difference between the PJ medevac and the typicall medevac is that they get to carry weapons. The PJs have more training for other things but thats a very broad generalization for how the inside combat rescue missions were vs the army medevac missions. Since regular medevac have the red cross it limits the fire power they can have on the aircraft. So they in turn travel with the support of 2 longbow apaches for firepower.

The TCCET model discussed above for the british basically uses a chinook helicopter as their airframe from what I understand. On it they then have typically a critical care nurse or nurses and a critical care physician. From what the army folks told me, they are thinking about this idea but I doubt it will become anything. It sounds sexy to the line commanders but I don't think it is worth the effort.
For the airforce I can see them wanting to pursue it becasue they basically do the same thing but on actual jets so they must think that they can replicate the same thing in a helicopter. I don't forsee any substantial benefit with this idea. We already have better outcomes then Britian using our current model.

More time and resources should be spent unifying all flight medics to a minimal civillian standard flight paramedic level.
 
The TCCET model discussed above for the british basically uses a chinook helicopter as their airframe from what I understand. On it they then have typically a critical care nurse or nurses and a critical care physician. From what the army folks told me, they are thinking about this idea but I doubt it will become anything. It sounds sexy to the line commanders but I don't think it is worth the effort.
For the airforce I can see them wanting to pursue it becasue they basically do the same thing but on actual jets so they must think that they can replicate the same thing in a helicopter. I don't forsee any substantial benefit with this idea. We already have better outcomes then Britian using our current model.
When I was at the R3 in Kandahar we'd get transfers from the Brits at Leatherneck. Ventilated patients came with one of their anesthesiologists on the flight, and they'd turn over to us in the trauma bay. Most of them were transfers for head injuries since they had no neurosurgical capability, but we did. I don't think they really added anything that influenced outcomes beyond what an ordinary critical care transport RN could do.

And I don't mean that as a knock on the Brits ... in fairness, nearly all of the cases we got from them were head injuries that needed urgent neurosurgical intervention; they all did terribly. They were all going to do terribly from the point of injury no matter what anybody did.

I guess my point is just that I never saw a category of patients who I thought would really benefit from a doctor in the aircraft. If they were stable enough to be transported in the first place, a nurse (or perhaps even a medic with some extra training) ought to be able to keep the vent going, the blood dripping, and the patient warm for a sub-1-hour flight.

I can't say I'm interested in seeing the US adopt that model.
 
When I was at the R3 in Kandahar we'd get transfers from the Brits at Leatherneck. Ventilated patients came with one of their anesthesiologists on the flight, and they'd turn over to us in the trauma bay. Most of them were transfers for head injuries since they had no neurosurgical capability, but we did. I don't think they really added anything that influenced outcomes beyond what an ordinary critical care transport RN could do.

And I don't mean that as a knock on the Brits ... in fairness, nearly all of the cases we got from them were head injuries that needed urgent neurosurgical intervention; they all did terribly. They were all going to do terribly from the point of injury no matter what anybody did.

I guess my point is just that I never saw a category of patients who I thought would really benefit from a doctor in the aircraft. If they were stable enough to be transported in the first place, a nurse (or perhaps even a medic with some extra training) ought to be able to keep the vent going, the blood dripping, and the patient warm for a sub-1-hour flight.

I can't say I'm interested in seeing the US adopt that model.

I dealt directly with TCCET when I was down in Helmand province flying MEDEVAC on UH60's. They had a Chinook with an OR table, resuscitation equipment and IIRC flew with a general surgeon, EM physician, anesthesiologist and two nurses.

They billed themselves as a sort of flying Kaiser Permanente and quickly gave the higher ups in the region vagina tingles as they waxed eloquently about their "capabilities." Never mind that the vast majority of our missions in that theatre, at that point in the War, were scoop and dump point of injury flights rarely over 30 minutes, these guys were perceived as being able to provide "better" medical care than your typical Army MEDEVAC bird with an EMT/possible flight paramedic and GMO flight surgeon.

I could spot the problems a mile away, even if the higher ups couldn't, or didn't want to. By that time I had flown hundreds of MEDEVAC missions and on a thirty minute flight or less, as PGG alluded to, there is almost no need to do much of ANYTHING other than stop bleeding, needle decompress and maybe hang an IV bag (more likely IO considering the wounds we saw). So all of their extra capabilities were for naught. Added to this, even on a 40 minute flight, how are you going to perform anything other than a chest tube in the back of a helicopter which is bobbing and weaving all over the place to escape RPG and PKM fire? The whole thing was lunacy. The CH47 also is not an ideal MEDEVAC bird. They're good for CASEVAC if you have to evacuate a whole bunch of people and they were utilized this way early in OEF. But on a point of injury scoop Chinooks are too big, too loud, too high profile (RPG friendly) and create so much dust that they brown out and blow out everything within 300 meters of the landing site. The new F models were able to hover down on auto-pilot through a brown out but this TCCET bird was an antiquated D model. Just a mess.

The biggest problem, again, a tactical one which none of these hospital desperados could grasp, was that the most important aspect of a MEDEVAC mission is getting to the wounded party QUICKLY. Hence the whole "golden hour" stuff. My units had it down to a science. We eat/lived/slept on the flightline, with our gear, and radios 24/7. Our average launch time from receipt of the 9 line to wheels up was around 6 minutes. That is fast, and that, ultimately is what saved lives, not what we did in the back.

This Chinook clown car, call-sign "Tricky" was based out of Leatherneck. It was a British venture at that time. I don't know how they arranged things or if the thought ever crossed their mind but they were god-awful slow in getting in the air. I surmised that it was because they had to collect all these badge chasers from the hospital and load them onto the ACFT. It took them about 40 minutes to even spin up.

Some of my worst memories from those times were waiting by our helos, spun up, after a 9 line was sent for a chest wound (an example) and then listening over the radio as the mission was sent to Tricky. And then hearing forty minutes later that some young Marine was dead and that those ****ers never even launched. 9-line cancelled, stand down.

The army perfected MEDEVAC after 10 years of War. You don't need paramedics in the back and you certainly don't need a trauma surgeon and an OR table. I always taught my medics that less was more. Be safe, be prudent, get the guy to the Role 3 so that they can work their magic.

- ex 61N
 
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You don't need paramedics in the back...

I believe the Army is moving to an all paramedic trained flight medic model because National Guard units were demonstrating better outcomes and National Guard medics tend to be paramedic trained. While I think paramedic training is a reasonable goal, I have to think the Army missed the point. I would wager that NG units have better outcome not because they have more formal training but because they spend their time at home seeing and treating patients on the civilian side while their AD counterparts get tasked out to non-medical or minimally-medical duties. Judging by your comment, I would guess that you agree with that but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts given your significant experience....
 
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I believe the Army is moving to an all paramedic trained flight medic model because National Guard units were demonstrating better outcomes and National Guard medics tend to be paramedic trained. While I think paramedic training is a reasonable goal, I have to think the Army missed the point. I would wager that NG units have better outcome not because they have more formal training but because they spend their time at home seeing and treating patients on the civilian side while their AD counterparts get tasked out to non-medical or minimally-medical duties. Judging by your comment, I would guess that you agree with that but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts given your significant experience....

Yes, you are dead-on in your assessment. What made the NG flight medics valuable is that in civilian life they were constantly making paramedic runs or even serving as flight nurses- they were far more experienced than our newest flight medics and quite a few of them had been doing it for 15-20 years.

The Army made a slap-dash attempt to rush all of my flight medics (mostly EMT-B's with a few EMT-I's mixed in) through the national paramedic course between deployments because the order had come down from high that "all flight medics must be paramedic certified by xxxx date." Typical myopic Army BS. So they hired a couple wheezy chain smoking civilian contractors and put these guys through a 5 month powerpoint flail and then released them to local community hospitals- with no trauma- where they essentially shadowed and weren't even allowed to put IV's in because our local MEDDAC had failed to make proper arrangements for these guys who were FORSCOM assets in line units and therefore non-persons in the eyes of the 220 lb fibromyathletes dressed in nurse colonel costumes.

The other problem was that we were part of an elite, specialized unit. We always had flight medics being tasked out of the company for Battalion, Brigade and even division level stuff. Several left for 160th SOAR and then came back. We were home 13 months between deployments and most of us spent at least 3 of those months at NTC, JRTC, or HAMETS. They didn't have time to study and attended the other training haphazardly.

The net result is that after 10 months sixteen of them took the national registry and only 3 passed. I considered that something of a victory considering how disorganized and inadequate their curriculum was.

I flew with everyone downrange from 18 yo EMT-B's to 56 yo NG paramedics. In very few cases did I see a huge difference in outcome between the care given by the paramedics and the EMT-B. I will grant that this is because the majority of the missions I flew were point of injury, IED and gunshot extravaganzas where, again, the emphasis was simply on stopping the bleeding, starting IV's, hanging colloid, and needle decompressing. If anything, the young guys might have functioned better in this environment because they were more cautious (the good ones) and didn't try to do cowboy things like unnecessary cric's or intubating patients with GCS's of 14. I recall several airway mishaps and misses that were the case of a seasoned paramedic trying to do too much.

What the paramedics brought to the table was a broad familiarity with management of medical emergencies (STEMI's, Diabetic crises, COPD) and a passing acquaintance with the basic management of kids. During the time I served though, we rarely flew these kinds of patients, aside from the odd contractor, village elder, or most often afghan kids caught in the crossfire.

The NG guys were also better at critical care transport- vent management in particular- but we often took critical care nurses along on these missions which were FOB---->Role 3 or had a flight surgeon in the back.

Overall, I would say that for the vast majority of deployment trauma you don't need anything better than a young motivated EMT-B who knows his limits in the back of the ACFT. The emphasis is on KNOWS HIS LIMITS. Paramedic-qualified sounds cool and is a good OER bullet but I can't say that it made a difference on the battlefield in the two tours I served in Afghanistan.

- ex 61N
 
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I've been watching a show on Netflix called "Inside Combat Rescue" where a group of PJ's in Afghanistan are followed for 2 months. In one of the episodes, one of the medics mentions that he went to medical school, but no other information is given. Have any of you ever heard of physicians becoming PJ's? I know of TCCET, but have never heard of docs going so far outside of the wire.


Haven't seen the show, but I have seen what you are talking about. In Arizona, there is a AF reserve base down the road from U of A campus. One of the PJs involved in the rescue operation of Marcus Latrell is attached to that unit. He was PJ reservist while going to medical school. After graduation, he was deployed to Afghanistan before he could do a residency. So he was a MD/enlisted Master Sergeant PJ. After his deployment, he went to New York for an ER residency. Now, he is a flight surgeon for that reserve unit. Make sense?
 
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