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http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/items

US news reports this info on some schools. See link.


This percentage is far higher than most of the other schools that reported this fact on % of students to get first choice residency.

I was kind of surprised when I looked at pcsom match list and there are good amount of non primary care specialties. Ie 5 anesthesiology matches from a class of about 70. Schools like wvsom, lecom, vcom and many allopathic schools only get to about 60% match rate into first choice.



Anyone else surprised by this? Or do u think it is an error by us news?
 
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I don't like that this post sort of implies that primary care residencies in the match list are a bad thing. I mean, students choose primary care because they genuinely want to, it has nothing to do with them not being able to get those competitive specialties. The number of people matching in competitive residencies only tells you about the students graduating in that class, not the quality of the school itself. This has been stated on these boards 100 times, and I don't think it can be stressed enough.

That being said, a class of 70 is really small compared to other schools and could account for that high percentage, if you ask me.
 
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I don't like that this post sort of implies that primary care residencies in the match list are a bad thing. I mean, students choose primary care because they genuinely want to, it has nothing to do with them not being able to get those competitive specialties. The number of people matching in competitive residencies only tells you about the students graduating in that class, not the quality of the school itself. This has been stated on these boards 100 times, and I don't think it can be stressed enough.

That being said, a class of 70 is really small compared to other schools and could account for that high percentage, if you ask me.
Exactly what I was implying.

No not quite.

I only mentioned the non primary care thing to address the issue that the high percentage of match for first choice cannot be attributed to those going into all primary care because as everyone knows primarya care spots are easier to match into. But way to make into something that It is not. Great job!
 

ChiDO

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Exactly what I was implying.

No not quite.

I only mentioned the non primary care thing to address the issue that the high percentage of match for first choice cannot be attributed to those going into all primary care because as everyone knows primarya care spots are easier to match into. But way to make into something that It is not. Great job!
This is the problem with SDN. Who cares if it's all primary care. If the class had a 100% 1st choice match into FP then that is a GREAT match. Just because the class doesn't want to do a ROAD specialty at some BIG NAME doesn't mean it's a bad match.

Pre-meds on SDN are obsessed with the ladder and if it doesn't exist, it's a ****ty match. :rolleyes:
 
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This is the problem with SDN. Who cares if it's all primary care. If the class had a 100% 1st choice match into FP then that is a GREAT match. Just because the class doesn't want to do a ROAD specialty at some BIG NAME doesn't mean it's a bad match.

Pre-meds on SDN are obsessed with the ladder and if it doesn't exist, it's a ****ty match. :rolleyes:
Exactly, and he knows that's exactly what he was talking about. He could try and bad mouth me all he wants. :)

I'm still standing by that it's easier to achieve 91% when you have such a miniscule class, compared to some schools with class sizes of 2 or 3 hundred.

Only IDIOTS don't want to be neurosurgeons/dermatologists/radiologists/ophthamologists!
 
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I have absolutely nothing against primary care, I am interested in it myself. I only said what I did because I know that people were going to respond saying pcsom is primary care oriented.


Maybe instead of assuming I have a problem with primary care you 2 might want to ask yourself that.


Way out of context! Nm
 
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My point was that the match list for one particular year does not say anything about whether or not the school itself is primary care oriented. It only tells you that the students from said graduating class weren't oriented towards primary care.

Match lists don't say anything about the school, it only tells you about the students.
 
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My point was that the match list for one particular year does not say anything about whether or not the school itself is primary care oriented. It only tells you that the students from said graduating class weren't oriented towards primary care.

Match lists don't say anything about the school, it only tells you about the students.
Yes i agree but that doesn't change my original question. Pcsom has one of the lowest entrance mcat and gpa. You don't think that the school has anything to say about the high % of first match choice? I am not saying that the high % of first choice match says anything about primary care however I am was only addressing this bc I figured people would bring this up. Pcsom is known for primary care philosophy.
 

pyropig

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My point was that the match list for one particular year does not say anything about whether or not the school itself is primary care oriented. It only tells you that the students from said graduating class weren't oriented towards primary care.

Match lists don't say anything about the school, it only tells you about the students.
I also think it's a stretch to say that it DOESN'T say anything about the schools orientation. If the school does in fact have a field or philosophy that it pushes than I think there are going to be a group within the class that will be influenced by that push. Example: UNSOM (Nevada) the med school attached with my UG has been pushing family care really hard, and as a result they have seen an increase in the number of student choosing residencies that match it.
 
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I also think it's a stretch to say that it DOESN'T say anything about the schools orientation. If the school does in fact have a field or philosophy that it pushes than I think there are going to be a group within the class that will be influenced by that push. Example: UNSOM (Nevada) the med school attached with my UG has been pushing family care really hard, and as a result they have seen an increase in the number of student choosing residencies that match it.
We're not looking at a trend here. we're looking at one year, and a school with a class size of 70, which is extremely small. It's not enough information to tell you much about the school itself.

No matter what the school's philosophy may be, they can't really control what choices their students are going to make every year. We'd have to look at their match list for every year from the past 5 or 10 years to see if they had some sort of upward or downward trend in those choosing primary care as opposed to other specialties.
 

JustAGuy

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I was kind of surprised when I looked at pcsom match list and there are good amount of non primary care specialties. Ie 5 anesthesiology matches from a class of about 70. Schools like wvsom, lecom, vcom and many allopathic schools only get to about 60% match rate into first choice.

Anyone else surprised by this? Or do u think it is an error by us news?
The 2008 list that was posted a couple years ago wasn't too impressive. It was mostly primary care with some EM and general surgery. If I were a betting man, I would guess that's how most of their match lists look, and that might be why they only advertise their 2005 list.
 
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The 2008 list that was posted a couple years ago wasn't too impressive. It was mostly primary care with some EM and general surgery. If I were a betting man, I would guess that's how most of their match lists look, and that might be why they only advertise their 2005 list.
Where is this 2008 match list you speak of? the 2005 is in the sticky. I have heard this 2005 list is what is typical every year based on the pcsom threads.

I don't want to get caught up in this because it comes down to the student ultimately and how they do on the boards that determine their residency.

The us news link I am referring to is for the 2008 match. I find it hard to believe that 91 % chose primRy care as their first choice but I could be wrong. I am just basing this on previos classes.
 

JustAGuy

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I don't want to get caught up in this because it comes down to the student ultimately and how they do on the boards that determine their residency.
Exactly. Since they have lower caliber students on average (I believe around a 3.3 GPA and 22 MCAT), it shouldn't be surprising that most end up in less competitive residencies.

The us news link I am referring to is for the 2008 match. I find it hard to believe that 91 % chose primRy care as their first choice but I could be wrong. I am just basing this on previos classes.
I just did a quick Google search and found this for 2008:

Here is 2008

Gen. Surgery Detroit, MI (Detroit Med Center System)
IM Knoxville, TN (U of Tenn.)
IM Washington, DC (Walter Reed Army Med)
IM Cincinnati, OH (Christ Hospital)
FM Tupelo, MS
Neurology University of Mississipi
Ob-Gyn Philadelphia, PA
EM-IM Westlake, OH (cleveland area)
IM Corinth, MS
Gen. Surgery Detroit, MI
IM Norton, VA
Family South Bend, IN (St. Joseph's)
NeuroSurgery Livingston, NJ
Trad Intern, Rad York, PA (Memorial Hospital)
IM Cinncinati, OH (U of Cincy)
EM East Lansing, MI (MSU)
Gen. Surgery Mobile, AL (U of S. AL)
IM Michigan (Henry Ford)
Trad Intern, PMR Amarillo, TX (Texas Tech U)
IM Joplin, MO
IM Lexington, KY (UK)
IM Louisville, KY (UofL)
IM Corinth, MS
Family Fort Wayne, IN
Med Peds Hershey, PA (Penn State)
Peds Lexington, KY (UK)
EM Warren, MI
Trad Intern, Anesthesia St. Peterburg, FL
Ob-Gyn Pontiac, MI
EM Jackson, MS (UMC)
Gen. Surgery Garden City, MI
IM Lansing, MI (Ingham Regional)
Ob-Gyn Philadelphia, PA
IM Cincinnati, OH (U of Cincy)
Gen. Surgery Farmington Hills, MI (Botsford)
Anesthesia Little Rock, AK (UAMS)
Gen. Surgery Kirksville, MO (Northeast Reg.)
IM Michigan (Henry Ford)
Ob-Gyn Pontiac, MI (SJMO)
IM Cinncinati, OH (U of Cincy)
Family Spartanburg, SC
EM Richmond, VA (Med College of VA/VCU)
Ob-Gyn Johnson City, TN (ETSU)
IM Norton, VA
Family Birmingham, AL (St. Vincent's)
Family Henderson, KY
IM Charleston, WV
EM Columbus, OH
Trad Intern, PMR Kalamazoo, MI (MSU @ Bronson Hospital)
EM Portsmouth, OH
 

time md

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I feel bad for you OP. Sorry you got bashed. I think the post is insightful for those of us who don't want to go primary med and are/were considering Pikeville.

Its great some of you guys want to go into primary med and its great other don't. It is legitimate if you don't want primary med to be concerned about the percentage of a class that matches into non-primary med residencies.
 
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I hope this is a sarcastic statement
If you read the rest of my posts, you'd know that this was clearly sarcastic - I was making a point that just because primary care is "less competitive" doesn't mean that nobody could possibly want to go into it as opposed to derm or some other specialty.


My point still stands: This match list shouldn't have any bearing on your choice of school, because you'll probably find yourself disappointed. When it comes to residency, it all comes down to YOU, whether you go to Pikeville, PCOM, KCOM, NYCOM, or any other school.

I see this same thread about 10 times over in these forums and it gets old.
 
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Exactly. Since they have lower caliber students on average (I believe around a 3.3 GPA and 22 MCAT), it shouldn't be surprising that most end up in less competitive residencies.



I just did a quick Google search and found this for 2008:
I looked and found that same list too. Thanks. However with a little reading it seems the list is very unofficial, but nonetheless somewhat accurate. Anyways I still think you are missing my point a little. My focus of starting this thread was due to the 91% of pcsom students that got what they CHOSE.

From the sdn thread that mentioned the 2008 match list http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=647103 , a pcsom student said that getting your first choice is veery common at pcsom even up to 98%.

Also out of such a small class for 2008, I don't think that list was as less competitive as you think. I saw neurosurgery, 2 gas, 5 OB-gyn, 5 surgery, rad, neurology all from a 91% first choice, all from a class of about 75 (only 50 here - just multiply that or 4) with surely more matches missing from an unofficial list. Again if people chose what they wanted and got it, how is that saying it is a poor match list, or right to knock it if you are, i am not sure if you are.

Here is 2005 match list http://more.studentdoctor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11469&d=1227894496


Cristina,

This isn't meant to be a typical match list thread instead one oriented specifically on pcsom and there high first choice rate which seems to be consistent. This is a thread that is trying to get more info out on pcsom which seems to be lacking. At least to me it seems pcsom is unique in that with lower admissions standards (I don't know if this contributes or not), that pcsom can accomplish what they do with such a high number getting what they want. If you look at other schools on the us news link they are far lower.
 
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MLT2MT2DO

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If you read the rest of my posts, you'd know that this was clearly sarcastic - I was making a point that just because primary care is "less competitive" doesn't mean that nobody could possibly want to go into it as opposed to derm or some other specialty.


My point still stands: This match list shouldn't have any bearing on your choice of school, because you'll probably find yourself disappointed. When it comes to residency, it all comes down to YOU, whether you go to Pikeville, PCOM, KCOM, NYCOM, or any other school.

I see this same thread about 10 times over in these forums and it gets old.
Actually I read the rest of your posts, and I just found the statement to be confusing. Sarcasm usually does get lost over the interweb, that's why I figured I'd ask instead of reacting.

I agree with with you on all fronts especially about viewing match lists at least 5 years from the point one is going to be applying for residency
 

JustAGuy

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I don't think that list was as less competitive as you think. I saw neurosurgery, 2 gas, 5 OB-gyn, 5 surgery, rad, neurology all from a 91% first choice, all from a class of about 75 (only 50 here - just multiply that or 4) with surely more matches missing from an unofficial list. Again if people chose what they wanted and got it, how is that saying it is a poor match list, or right to knock it if you are, i am not sure if you are.
I'm not saying it's a poor match list or or that the school is crappy. I'm just saying it's not that big of a deal. If 90%+ of the class matched into non-competitive residencies, which is what it looks like from the 2008 list, it's not really super surprising that 91% of them matched into their first choice. The average matched with first choice for all DO schools is somewhere around 85-90%. Some schools have 100% some years.
 
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I'm not saying it's a poor match list or or that the school is crappy. I'm just saying it's not that big of a deal. If 90%+ of the class matched into non-competitive residencies, which is what it looks like from the 2008 list, it's not really super surprising that 91% of them matched into their first choice. The average matched with first choice for all DO schools is somewhere around 85-90%. Some schools have 100% some years.
Not according to us news. The highest match first choice for another osteopathic school I saw was in the mid 60%. So I guess you are saying us news stats are wrong. I highly doubt that the average is 85-90% for all osteopathic schools. I would really like to see a source on that one.
 

JustAGuy

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Not according to us news. The highest match first choice for another osteopathic school I saw was in the mid 60%. So I guess you are saying us news stats are wrong. I highly doubt that the average is 85-90% for all osteopathic schools. I would really like to see a source on that one.
Regardless of what they are, the advertised percents are misleading and not very useful, imo.  Saying that 91% of those who participated in the AOA match and then actually matched got their first choice doesn't really tell you much at all. What about the 15-20% of students who participated in AOA who didn't match? What about the 60% of the class that didn't even participate? Basically, what this advertised 91% tells you is that the 27 people out of the 30 who matched AOA got their first pick. Great.

Btw, I was thinking of this chart (chart 1) I saw awhile back:
http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/reprint/108/3/127.pdf
 
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Regardless of what they are, the advertised percents are misleading and not very useful, imo.  Saying that 91% of those who participated in the AOA match and then actually matched got their first choice doesn't really tell you much at all. What about the 15-20% of students who participated in AOA who didn't match? What about the 60% of the class that didn't even participate? Basically, what this advertised 91% tells you is that the 27 people out of the 30 who matched AOA got their first pick. Great.

Btw, I was thinking of this chart (chart 1) I saw awhile back:
http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/reprint/108/3/127.pdf
That is great PDF. Do you have any other like this with a school breakdown, maybe more recent? Thanks. Your argument makes sense but it is very skeptical to think that there is false reporting when I thought there was some kind of requirement to report accurately.

Also how do you that the us news number is just aoa matches? Us news states percentage of class, so I would assume that this is both allopathic and osteopathic first choice residencies. Please prove me wrong if I am though.
 
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JustAGuy

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how do you that the us news number is just aoa matches? Us news states percentage of class, so I would assume that this is both allopathic and osteopathic first choice residencies. Please prove me wrong if I am though.
I'm not sure if they've said it was only AOA, but that's the only thing that makes sense. US News collects info from schools each year via surveys. NRMP match results aren't reported to DO schools, so how could they report them to US News? Also, since like 30% of DO students fail to even match into ACGME residencies (compared to like 6% of MDs), how could these superior percentages include the allopathic match?
 

Skippygonenuts

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Regardless of what they are, the advertised percents are misleading and not very useful, imo.  Saying that 91% of those who participated in the AOA match and then actually matched got their first choice doesn't really tell you much at all. What about the 15-20% of students who participated in AOA who didn't match? What about the 60% of the class that didn't even participate? Basically, what this advertised 91% tells you is that the 27 people out of the 30 who matched AOA got their first pick. Great.

Btw, I was thinking of this chart (chart 1) I saw awhile back:
http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/reprint/108/3/127.pdf
um...how accurate is this information? I know it looks reliable cus its in a journal and published by a PhD and all but:

DMUCOM Class size: 202 (only 71 matched)
KCUMB Class size: 212 (only 57 matched)
PCOM Class size: 245 (only 148 matched)

Out of a total of 2814 students in 2007, only 1196 matched? Only 42% of all DO students matched in 2007? I don't buy that.

In 2008, 1267 DO students matched out of a total of 3103. A measly 40%?

Had this been true, i would've only applied to Caribbean med schools...
 

JustAGuy

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Those numbers are for the osteopathic match. About another 40% or so matched into ACMGE residencies.
 
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Those numbers are for the osteopathic match. About another 40% or so matched into ACMGE residencies.
From what I read 40% of osteopathic students match aoa while the other 60% are AGME.

I have no idea where you get that 30% of osteopathic students fail to match into agme. are you taking into account that if they get accepted into aoa they must take that spot over AGME spots?
 

JustAGuy

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From what I read 40% of osteopathic students match aoa while the other 60% are AGME.
About 45% apply to AOA, 50% only ACGME, and 5% military.

I have no idea where you get that 30% of osteopathic students fail to match into agme. are you taking into account that if they get accepted into aoa they must take that spot over AGME spots?
Match stats are listed on the NRMP website. They list osteopathic failed to match (around 30%) and withdraws (around 25%) separately.

So if 5% don't match in AOA, and 30% of the ACGME only applicants don't match, that would mean somewhere around 20% of DO's fail to match each year.

This doesn't include scramble statistics, which I don't think you can find, so there's really no way to tell how many people actually don't get spots.
 
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About 45% apply to AOA, 50% only ACGME, and 5% military.



Match stats are listed on the NRMP website. They list osteopathic failed to match (around 30%) and withdraws (around 25%) separately.

So if 5% don't match in AOA, and 30% of the ACGME only applicants don't match, that would mean somewhere around 20% of DO's fail to match each year.

This doesn't include scramble statistics, which I don't think you can find, so there's really no way to tell how many people actually don't get spots.


You are misinterpreting these numbers. 5% of osteopathic medical students do not match because of the 30 minus 25%. Again you are not taking into account that those who apply to aoa spots must accept them no matter what even if latter on they are accepted to an agme spot thAt they like better.
 

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You guys are forgetting the out of match contracts and subsequent withdrawals from both matches. I think 5 out of our class of 80 or so signed out of match to allopathic programs.
 

FutureCTDoc

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91% First choice means different things depending on various factors, Harvard probably has a lower % match rate at first choices because MGH>>>>>>Community IM. When you are competing for slots in any hyper-competitive process you will have a lower chance of matching your #1 based on numbers alone. Also programs like derm and ophtho are small and may only be 2 or 3 residents per PGY whereas community IM may be 4 or 5 times that. My local community hospital back home has 400 or so beds and 14 IM residents per PGY, so do the math. Just on numbers alone the programs are significantly smaller and often interview more medical students per position, as well as choose the creme de la creme of applicants.
 
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91% First choice means different things depending on various factors, Harvard probably has a lower % match rate at first choices because MGH>>>>>>Community IM. When you are competing for slots in any hyper-competitive process you will have a lower chance of matching your #1 based on numbers alone. Also programs like derm and ophtho are small and may only be 2 or 3 residents per PGY whereas community IM may be 4 or 5 times that. My local community hospital back home has 400 or so beds and 14 IM residents per PGY, so do the math. Just on numbers alone the programs are significantly smaller and often interview more medical students per position, as well as choose the creme de la creme of applicants.
You are taking an extreme case. Sure you are right but when comparing similar schools and match locations (probably a good 70 schools on estimate) you still are not surprised? Many s hools are not harvard. I guess there is too much relativity to it to really know the answer.
 

FutureCTDoc

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You are taking an extreme case. Sure you are right but when comparing similar schools and match locations (probably a good 70 schools on estimate) you still are not surprised? Many s hools are not harvard. I guess there is too much relativity to it to really know the answer.
I'm just saying that 91% doesn't mean anything. The most important thing will always be the student. A 250 USMLE will erase any "DO Stigma". A school can help, however in the end it is ultimately the applicant that matters most.
 
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I'm just saying that 91% doesn't mean anything. The most important thing will always be the student. A 250 USMLE will erase any "DO Stigma". A school can help, however in the end it is ultimately the applicant that matters most.
I agree but I don't think the 91% means nothing. It has to account for something, especially from a school who accepts Lower standard students. Either the school prepares their students well or the numbers are wrong. As we noted the match lists are pretty average, so I don't believe that the first choice of students being towArds lower competitive specialties has anything to do with it, they seem on par with other schools.
 

JustAGuy

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You are misinterpreting these numbers.
No, I don't think I am.

5% of osteopathic medical students do not match because of the 30 minus 25%.
You are confused. 5% fail to match an AOA residency (45% participate and only 40% match). 50% only participate in NRMP, of which 70% are successful.

Again you are not taking into account that those who apply to aoa spots must accept them no matter what even if latter on they are accepted to an agme spot thAt they like better.
I just told you that withdraws were listed separately from those who failed to match into an ACGME residencies. 30% of osteopaths failed to match. 25% withdrew (most probably because they matched an AOA spot).
 

JustAGuy

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You guys are forgetting the out of match contracts
Yeah, unfortunately, I've never seen any statistics on this. But I'm sure that would lower the 20% unmatched by a percent or two. I'm just throwing out some rough estimates.
 
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Yeah, unfortunately, I've never seen any statistics on this. But I'm sure that would lower the 20% unmatched by a percent or two. I'm just throwing out some rough estimates.
From the nrmp report it states that most of those that do not match initially eventually do post-scramble. So most would mean greater than half probably more from the 20% you believe do not match.
 
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About 45% apply to AOA, 50% only ACGME, and 5% military.



Match stats are listed on the NRMP website. They list osteopathic failed to match (around 30%) and withdraws (around 25%) separately.

So if 5% don't match in AOA, and 30% of the ACGME only applicants don't match, that would mean somewhere around 20% of DO's fail to match each year.

This doesn't include scramble statistics, which I don't think you can find, so there's really no way to tell how many people actually don't get spots.
Also where exactly do you see that 50% of osteopathic seniors apply to agme only? I can't find this.
 

JustAGuy

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From the nrmp report it states that most of those that do not match initially eventually do post-scramble. So most would mean greater than half probably more from the 20% you believe do not match.
Right. Like I said earlier, those figures do not include the scramble, so there's no way to really tell exactly how many do not get in anywhere.

Also where exactly do you see that 50% of osteopathic seniors apply to agme only? I can't find this.
It's just deductive reasoning. If 45% participate in the AOA match, that leaves 55% non-participants. If about 5% go military, then that leaves 50% for NRMP (and I suppose prematch contracts). If 6% of all students sign prematch contracts, like BobBarker said was the case with his school, that would still leave 18-19% unmatched. It's a little scary when you think about it.
 
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Right. Like I said earlier, those figures do not include the scramble, so there's no way to really tell exactly how many do not get in anywhere.



It's just deductive reasoning. If 45% participate in the AOA match, that leaves 55% non-participants. If about 5% go military, then that leaves 50% for NRMP (and I suppose prematch contracts). If 6% of all students sign prematch contracts, like BobBarker said was the case with his school, that would still leave 18-19% unmatched. It's a little scary when you think about it.
It's not so scary when you realize that most get a spot by whatever means.

Also some of the 45% could also participate in agme right? So the 5% that don't get in from aoa could have gotten in a spot in agme. I have heard the final number is about 5% after all the scrambling and contracts, that isn't so bad. But this thread is about pcsom and how they get 91% in to FIRST CHOICE, which I guess means nothing lol.
 

FutureCTDoc

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I agree but I don't think the 91% means nothing. It has to account for something, especially from a school who accepts Lower standard students. Either the school prepares their students well or the numbers are wrong. As we noted the match lists are pretty average, so I don't believe that the first choice of students being towArds lower competitive specialties has anything to do with it, they seem on par with other schools.
But there are very few "big name" residencies, there are only 3 ROADs and one other highly competitive residency match for the class.

Neurosurgery Livingston, NJ
Trad Intern, Rads York, PA (Memorial Hospital)
Trad Intern, Anesthesia St. Peterburg, FL
Anesthesia Little Rock, AK (UAMS)

The majority matched in IM, FP, Peds and OB/GYN which are all relatively non-competitive. Many of these were relatively non-competitive community or university affiliated program. PCSOM also matched into a lot of moderately competitive programs like Gen surg and EM again mainly at community/university affiliates. That isn't terribly impressive as a match list.
 

MossPoh

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One thing, most of us don't know what a good program is. I actively seek it out and I still don't know for a lot of them. Somewhere that is known as prestigious for medical school does not mean every residency program there is great. Every speciality is different within the hospital as well. A program can have a ridiculously strong EM program and a tremendously weak surgical. A strong surgery residency and a weak anesthesia residency. It varies. ROAD specialities don't mean much. Believe it or not, many people don't want to go into those. Also, at a school like Pikesville, they tend to go to extremes to find people who will stay or return to the area and pursue fields that are most beneficial. One musn't assume that a person WANTS a big name program either. I don't really want to go to a place with tons of research. I want to go to a place where I focus on becoming the best doc I can be, get along with my fellow residents and stand a fair chance for any fellowships I'm interested in. (That can happen at community programs too)

It is natural for people (myself included) to scoff at lists that don't have super competitive specialities, but we don't know the stories of the people behind each match. Every class is different and has different personalities in it. I go to a primary care oriented school, yet last year we had more general surgery matches than family practice or internal medicine. This year we had 5 radiology matches, radiation oncology, 2 derms, etc....we also had over 10 FP. Hell, if you look at speciality satisfaction surveys, 2 of the 4 ROAD specialities are at the very top for being the most DISsatisifed.
 
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But there are very few "big name" residencies, there are only 3 ROADs and one other highly competitive residency match for the class.

Neurosurgery Livingston, NJ
Trad Intern, Rads York, PA (Memorial Hospital)
Trad Intern, Anesthesia St. Peterburg, FL
Anesthesia Little Rock, AK (UAMS)

The majority matched in IM, FP, Peds and OB/GYN which are all relatively non-competitive. Many of these were relatively non-competitive community or university affiliated program. PCSOM also matched into a lot of moderately competitive programs like Gen surg and EM again mainly at community/university affiliates. That isn't terribly impressive as a match list.

I am not saying that it is very impressive match list but rather on par with others all while maintaining First CHOICE of 91%. It isn't like the students are applying to places and not getting there first second or third choice but rather FIRST CHOICE, stressing CHOICE. Refer to post 18, you are off on your ROADS ANALYSIS. Again only 50 are reported here, multiply this number by 3 or 4 to get an average class size T other schools. Again not saying the match list is competitive or not but rather the first choice was so high. I did not apply to pcsom but it seems assuring that there students usually get what they want. I know there is a large amount of relativity in it but I am using the us news numbers in my analysis which have wide ranging numbers with few as high as pcsom. In 2005 I saw 5 anesthesiology out of 50 students and a good percentage in 2008 from those that reported. It isn't like the students arent even trying for more competitive specialities, which is my point.
 

scdocusc

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the point about the 91% first choice being dependent on class size is very correct. However, given this logic board pass rate % should be treated the same and they are not. Let's stop pretending that there are good and bad match lists out there. If people match to places they want then what's the problem? if you come to PCSOM then you apparently are given enough skills so that around 90% of the time you'll get you're first choice. Are most of our students trying to become subspecialists? heck no! But are they doing very well on boards? yes! are they getting to where they want to go? yes. That's the bottom line. The new match list has yet to be released to students but I've talked to some others in the school and this year's match for PCSOM went really well. Many students got highly competitive residency spots. However, keep in mind there are medical students at PCSOM who are very smart and did well on both COMLEX and USMLE and could match into another residency but CHOOSE to do primary care because of various reasons. Lets also stop pretending that there are only two classes of residencies "good" and "not so good". I doesn't matter if you are going into an IM residency in Hazard KY, or Nashville TN. You're going to be an IM doc and have patients and get paid. Who cares? No one was making an assertion that it was a highly impressive competitive laden match list. Did it ever occur that some of these graduates wanted to get these residencies (gasp)? FYI norton community hospital in Norton VA is one of the top IM programs in america and had recently the highest step III score in the nation in IM. So be very careful when you judge match lists and don't put too much stock in the opinions of pre-med students who have no clue what is a good residency and what's not.
 
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TexasPhysician

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The statistic everyone is argueing over is actually pretty useless. It is heavily dependent on specialty choice, location, and where you interview. Too many variables to be useful.

Say you want to do IM in Texas but you only get interviews in Oklahoma. If you get your first choice (an Oklahoma school) based on where you interview, you would still be disappointed you didn't get into TX.
 
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the point about the 91% first choice being dependent on class size is very correct. However, given this logic board pass rate % should be treated the same and they are not. Let's stop pretending that there are good and bad match lists out there. If people match to places they want then what's the problem? if you come to PCSOM then you apparently are given enough skills so that around 90% of the time you'll get you're first choice. Are most of our students trying to become subspecialists? heck no! But are they doing very well on boards? yes! are they getting to where they want to go? yes. That's the bottom line. The new match list has yet to be released to students but I've talked to some others in the school and this year's match for PCSOM went really well. Many students got highly competitive residency spots. However, keep in mind there are medical students at PCSOM who are very smart and did well on both COMLEX and USMLE and could match into another residency but CHOOSE to do primary care because of various reasons. Lets also stop pretending that there are only two classes of residencies "good" and "not so good". I doesn't matter if you are going into an IM residency in Hazard KY, or Nashville TN. You're going to be an IM doc and have patients and get paid. Who cares? No one was making an assertion that it was a highly impressive competitive laden match list. Did it ever occur that some of these graduates wanted to get these residencies (gasp)? FYI norton community hospital in Norton VA is one of the top IM programs in america and had recently the highest step III score in the nation in IM. So be very careful when you judge match lists and don't put too much stock in the opinions of pre-med students who have no clue what is a good residency and what's not.
Can you post the match list when it comes out ? Thanks
 

FutureCTDoc

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I am not saying that it is very impressive match list but rather on par with others all while maintaining First CHOICE of 91%. It isn't like the students are applying to places and not getting there first second or third choice but rather FIRST CHOICE, stressing CHOICE. Refer to post 18, you are off on your ROADS ANALYSIS. Again only 50 are reported here, multiply this number by 3 or 4 to get an average class size T other schools. Again not saying the match list is competitive or not but rather the first choice was so high. I did not apply to pcsom but it seems assuring that there students usually get what they want. I know there is a large amount of relativity in it but I am using the us news numbers in my analysis which have wide ranging numbers with few as high as pcsom. In 2005 I saw 5 anesthesiology out of 50 students and a good percentage in 2008 from those that reported. It isn't like the students arent even trying for more competitive specialities, which is my point.
I looked up a few schools to compare first-choice residency rates, only 56% of Stanford grads and only 50% of Mount Sinai grads get their top choice for residency. These schools are far ahead of PCSOM by any objective measure, be it MCAT, GPA or selectivity. They're matching half as many into their "top choice residency". This suggests that this statistic is meaningless, as people who elect to have less competitive choices are more likely to get their top choice. It's like applying for undergrad, if your top choice is Harvard, MIT or Cal Tech the odds of getting in are significantly less than of getting your first choice at state universities. The same logic applies to residencies. Also, anesthesia isn't super impressive, while it is "ROADs" it is the odd man out. It doesn't have the competitiveness in terms of USMLE/COMLEX scores, numbers of FMGs etc.
 
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I looked up a few schools to compare first-choice residency rates, only 56% of Stanford grads and only 50% of Mount Sinai grads get their top choice for residency. These schools are far ahead of PCSOM by any objective measure, be it MCAT, GPA or selectivity. They're matching half as many into their "top choice residency". This suggests that this statistic is meaningless, as people who elect to have less competitive choices are more likely to get their top choice. It's like applying for undergrad, if your top choice is Harvard, MIT or Cal Tech the odds of getting in are significantly less than of getting your first choice at state universities. The same logic applies to residencies. Also, anesthesia isn't super impressive, while it is "ROADs" it is the odd man out. It doesn't have the competitiveness in terms of USMLE/COMLEX scores, numbers of FMGs etc.
Why am I writing in a pre-med forum? Maybe I must be bored on looking at the "New Posts" button. Anyway, I know nothing about the school at hand, but I will definitively say that the NRMP (the organization that does the match for allopathic residency programs) does NOT release ANY data regarding % of top choice, not publicly, and not to any allopathic Dean's office in the nation. Match lists are sent to the Dean's office, but there is no way of knowing whether Johnny got his first choice or third. This is extremely privileged and private information which may have been released in the very distant past, but is no longer released. These data are not released because they would cause artificial "match rigging" by schools across the nation, to increase the % of "#1 choice". How? If an advising Dean realistically felt that a student could not match at a certain place, he would advise the student to rank it lower, and "uprank" realistic choices: this increases the % of students who get their first choice, and schools would unfairly use this for recruitment/comparing. You can imagine that residency programs would do the same thing to boost their own %'s, hence increasing pre-match "love letters"/match manipulation. This is contrary to the match philosophy which is supposed to favor the CANDIDATE, not the medical school or the residency program. You are supposed to rank hospitals in the order YOU liked them: reach for the program you loved most, not where you predict you might end up.

Hence, your statistics regarding MSSM and Stanford are irrelevant. If the statistics existed, they would be self-reported, and no med school in the nation would dare ask its own students about this touchy topic. The data would be heavily warped, guaranteed. Also, I matched at MGH, and plenty of people at HMS who wanted to stay at one of the 3 hospitals were able to stay. Same goes for at Columbia, Cornell, MSSM, Stanford, UCSF, and all the other top schools mentioned. There is also a pretty classic HMS-UCSF conduit.

As for the home program stuff mentioned earlier in the thread, if you have no red flags, your home program will always love you. I suppose this is one huge disadvantage to going to an osteopathic school, because you guys have no "home program" in most cases, no "department chairman" to go to bat for you, or program directors of any ACGME residencies at your fingertips. The home program has spent an extensive amount of time training you (as a med student) in the ethos and style of that hospital, and it's in their best interest if you stay. This is completely unlike the philosophy of PhD programs, which rarely admit bachelor's candidates from the same school.
 

TexasPhysician

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I will definitively say that the NRMP (the organization that does the match for allopathic residency programs) does NOT release ANY data regarding % of top choice, not publicly, and not to any allopathic Dean's office in the nation. This is extremely privileged and private information which may have been released in the very distant past, but is no longer released. These data are not released because they would cause artificial "match rigging" by schools across the nation, to increase the % of "#1 choice".
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Correct. The numbers thrown around are probably just old numbers for the allopathic schools. This was released publicly in the past. It no longer is because of the details you mentioned......plus being a useless number anyway - too many variables
 
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Correct. The numbers thrown around are probably just old numbers for the allopathic schools. This was released publicly in the past. It no longer is because of the details you mentioned......plus being a useless number anyway - too many variables
Ok that is why 2008 has numbers and 2009 does not yet. Only some schools release the numbers. Your argument as I proved is grounded in fallacies. The number is impressive plain and simple regardless of your insecurities with it.