Pitt vs Cornell (WL) vs Duke

[burgh-dude]

Hi everyone, I'm very confused on what I should do. Can you please advise what would be the best option. I'm leaning heavily towards surgery / neuro (only because this is what I've shadowed in a lot). As per cost, I'm going to assume it's about the same at all three. I don't really have a preference for either of their locations - whichever school is best suited for my goals/ personality, I'll deal with the location.

Pitt Pros:
- Native Pittsburgher (hour-2 away)
- Went to Pitt for undergrad/ already have research going here/ will have an edge on shadowing/ LOR/ research
- Family is close by/ have a strong support system

Pitt Cons:
- ***MAIN CONCERN: I've lived in PGH my entire life, and I feel that if I go to Pitt for med school also, will residency directors have doubts on me going to their program and thus rank me low??***
- Literally know everything in the city
- Is it prestigious? Does UPMC/ Pitt have a nationwide brand? Will it help me down the line?

Cornell Pros:
- Prestige/ Ivy connections/ etc.
- Connection with top hospitals for surgery (NYP/ Memorial-Sloan)
- MD/MBA will also help make me more competitive for residency
- Small class size

Cornell Cons:
- Cutthroat I've heard? Highly toxic environment apparently?
- 1st year dorms

Duke Pros:
- Prestige/ Brand
- Have edge on research there
- 3rd year open to make self competitive for residency

Duke Cons:
- 1st year is VERY stressful apparently? Lots of kids burnout?
- AOA
- Large class size
- Also toxic/ competitive/ cut throat environment

Please do advise and help. Will sending a letter of intent make a difference at this point? Will going to Pitt Med hurt me come residency apps?

Thank you!!

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[BritainKittenMittens]

You didn't mention cost so I'll consider it irrelevant. You mention prestige a lot and competitive specialties (? is that neuro or surgery or neurosurgery). You also didn't talk about location preference. It seems like you care a lot about the brand. I'd go with Duke. Of the three, it's the biggest brand in medicine and in general.

 

[burgh-dude]

You didn't mention cost so I'll consider it irrelevant. You mention prestige a lot and competitive specialties (? is that neuro or surgery or neurosurgery). You also didn't talk about location preference. It seems like you care a lot about the brand. I'd go with Duke. Of the three, it's the biggest brand in medicine and in general.

Sorry about that. Cost is about the same at all three. Have you heard anything as per the environments at Duke/ Cornell?

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Sorry about that. Cost is about the same at all three. Have you heard anything as per the environments at Duke/ Cornell?

Probably the same thing you mentioned for both cultures. I hear NY schools are pretty harsh, mirrors the city itself and the students that choose that intense environment. 1 Year curriculums like Duke are usually intense, but it's kind of like you're front-loading the work.

You can't go wrong with either or all three. But I don't think they have drastic cultural differences from what I hear to warrant noteworthy selection criteria. Personally, I'm of the opinion that within the same tier of schools, go with happiness and cost. Happiness varies for each person, but in general, it's usually location, support system and unique career opportunities.

 

[MediocreClimber]

Duke actually got rid of AOA recently btw! And I have heard the environment is not super competitive at all since its P/F, no AOA, etc. People seem really happy at Duke.

 

[lanadelreyy]

Pitt outranks Duke, and Duke outranks Cornell in PD ranking.
For neurosurg, these are the match numbers since 2017:
Pitt: 12
Duke: 10
Cornell: 5

2020 NIH funding are as follows:
8. Pitt
12. Duke
35. Cornell

Cornell's and Pitt's doximity rankings for neurosurgery residency were #3 & #5; Duke doesn't make the top 10. If you're not interested in staying in your home city, however, this may not apply to you.

As for recognition, all three have a national presence in medicine however Pitt's is also international with hospitals expanded across Europe and Asia. Toxicity from ivies and quasi-ivies certainly transfer to their medical schools, however I'm sure you can find individuals that are a match for you. If you don't have a preference for location, Pitt>Duke>Cornell. If you do have a preference for a new location, which it seems you may, Duke>Cornell=Pitt, given the high COL for Cornell.

 

[burgh-dude]

Pitt outranks Duke, and Duke outranks Cornell in PD ranking.
For neurosurg, these are the match numbers since 2017:
Pitt: 12
Duke: 10
Cornell: 5

2020 NIH funding are as follows:
8. Pitt
12. Duke
35. Cornell

Cornell's and Pitt's doximity rankings for neurosurgery residency were #3 & #5; Duke doesn't make the top 10. If you're not interested in staying in your home city, however, this may not apply to you.

As for recognition, all three have a national presence in medicine however Pitt's is also international with hospitals expanded across Europe and Asia. Toxicity from ivies and quasi-ivies certainly transfer to their medical schools, however I'm sure you can find individuals that are a match for you. If you don't have a preference for location, Pitt>Duke>Cornell. If you do have a preference for a new location, which it seems you may, Duke>Cornell=Pitt, given the high COL for Cornell.

You are the absolute best. Thank you so very much for this information and advice. Do you think residency directors from other areas will rank me low because I’ve been in PGH my whole life and they may feel I might not come to their school?

 

[lanadelreyy]

You are the absolute best. Thank you so very much for this information and advice. Do you think residency directors from other areas will rank me low because I’ve been in PGH my whole life and they may feel I might not come to their school?

This really shouldn't be a concern. They will not think that you are only willing to go to one single program, especially not for such a competitive specialty, nor for such a prestigious school. They'll look at your credentials, scores, connections, and so on to select the top applicants for their program, not speculate on what people's desires to move are.

From my experience in NE US, Pitt has the edge on your other programs in resources and reputation in the medical world (perhaps barring NY and Cornell) but you'll be successful at whichever you choose and feel is best for you. You are clearly a very competitive applicant. Good luck

 

[burgh-dude]

This really shouldn't be a concern. They will not think that you are only willing to go to one single program, especially not for such a competitive specialty, nor for such a prestigious school. They'll look at your credentials, scores, connections, and so on to select the top applicants for their program, not speculate on what people's desires to move are.

From my experience in NE US, Pitt has the edge on your other programs in resources and reputation in the medical world (perhaps barring NY and Cornell) but you'll be successful at whichever you choose and feel is best for you. You are clearly a very competitive applicant. Good luck

Thank you so much again for all of that information and insight. I guess staying here all this time made me unaware of how good Pitt med rlly is. I was very worried about the residency aspect but your information really helped. Thank you so much and I wish you the very best luck!!

 

[olderbrooklyndoc]

All three schools are great options! I was deciding between these same schools and ended up at Duke, in large part because of the 3rd year options (though the spring weather during second look really helped). I will say that Duke is P/F first year w/out internal ranking, and most of my classmates found it very doable and, although a lot of information, much less stressful than pre-med. Additionally, there is no AOA at Duke. And I think that if you have compelling reasons to explain to PDs why you would move somewhere they will still rank you highly(I've loved my training in undergrad and med school at Pitt, but really want to go to your program because of your blah blah cool neurosurgery thing or my partner's family lives there). Feel free to PM me if I can be helpful at all.

 

[deleted1079705]

Duke is the most prestigious in terms of medicine, but it is only a slight advantage. Also, with Duke's recent dismissal of AOA, the cut throat environment will not be a problem, practically dismissing all of your cons. The main draw to Pittsburgh seems to be your support system and connections, so it is up to you to decide if it is worth sacrificing a small amount of prestige for that.

 

[Banco]

Duke is the most prestigious in terms of medicine.

Based on what

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Based on what

I would agree with Duke. Just historical ranking averages which account for more than current ranking fluctuations. When you talk about prestige, it's not about how good the program is now necessarily, it's how good the program is based on old traditions.

 

[Banco]

I would agree with Duke. Just historical ranking averages which account for more than current ranking fluctuations. When you talk about prestige, it's not about how good the program is now necessarily, it's how good the program is based on old traditions.

Historical ranking averages of USNWR doesn't make a place more or less "prestigious in terms of medicine."


Maybe on SDN it does, I don't know, but such a definitive statement wouldn't really hold to scrutiny when speaking to people who are actually in medicine. It's much more nuanced and dependent on the field.

At OPs juncture, it is 100% a wash in terms of "prestige in medicine."

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Historical ranking averages of USNWR doesn't make a place more or less "prestigious in terms of medicine."

Rankings are a proxy for peer reputation, mainly because they factor in that metric highly. Rankings also influence reputation, for better or worse. A historical trend of reputation is the definition of prestige. What would your metric be, anecdotal oohs and as you personally hear at a hospital?

Again, I didn't say it correlates with how good the training is. But if you go off of what people are saying now, you'll believe that nyu and mayo are more prestigious than Duke, yale, Michigan, etc. All amazing programs, not saying prestige should be a high factor in choosing a school, and I agree that they all have the same reputation now. But if your self worth haplens to be tied to historical prestige, I'd say Duke has a slight bump.

 

[Banco]

Rankings are a proxy for peer reputation, mainly because they factor in that metric highly. Rankings also influence reputation, for better or worse. A historical trend of reputation is the definition of prestige. What would your metric be, anecdotal oohs and as you personally hear at a hospital?

Again, I didn't say it correlates with how good the training is. But if you go off of what people are saying now, you'll believe that nyu and mayo are more prestigious than Duke, yale, Michigan, etc. All amazing programs, not saying prestige should be a high factor in choosing a school, and I agree that they all have the same reputation now. But if your self worth haplens to be tied to historical prestige, I'd say Duke has a slight bump.

But NYU/Mayo has higher PD ratings (i.e. peer reputation) at the moment than Yale? Equal to Duke. Pitt's is actually higher than Duke. PD rating in and of itself however is still, a dumb metric, just like the USNWR rankings. And no, "prestige" or prominence in medicine isn't determined by anecdotes around the hospital. The best people who are able to determine which specialties/fields are best at which institutions in terms of academics and/or clinical training are people who are actually authorities in those fields (i.e. doctors, researchers; not USNWR, me, you, or most SDN posters). So while these rankings can give us a general idea of "tier" - comparing head to head so granularly is a fools errand that pre-meds get trapped in. Thus making a definitive statement like that poster did is a little presumptuous.

I agree though, the problem is that people tie their self-worth to "historical prestige" from one ranking publication, like you say.

 

[pierty]

At OPs juncture, it is 100% a wash in terms of "prestige in medicine."

absolutely.

But NYU/Mayo has higher PD ratings (i.e. peer reputation) at the moment than Yale? Equal to Duke. Pitt's is actually higher than Duke. PD rating in and of itself however is still, a dumb metric, just like the USNWR rankings.

all metrics provided by US News have severe problems, PD rankings being one of the greatest ones. They sample from under 20%- 30% of directors that they know (which is not all of them, so the actual % is even lower), and they do not care to correct for uneven distribution in specialty/region. When new schools pop-up, they will even take rankings from PD's that will give it to them (which are very few, since most PD's agree that it's dumb to give a rank to a school without an inaugural class). The whole thing is a farce, and the aamc will likely endorse a new ranking system soon if people keep pressuring them, and they can get their act together like they did with Step 1.

I know banco has heard this before, but the best way to evaluate schools is by their graduates’ short (i.e, match success) and long-term outcomes (productivity, awards, etc.). These are what matter to pre-meds starting the grind anyways.

Generally, schools will match “quartiles” or their students into top residencies

0-25% (DO, international, Caribbean, new/low-regraded med schools);

25%-49% (well-regraded/established mainland allopathic schools);

50% - 74% (very strong/top-tier schools with ties to the academic incest pool);

75%+ of their class (the ivories+).

I am not convinced that the halo effect of the schools is the main driver for these numbers, since they attract top talent that do excellent regardless, which help perpetuate the averages.

In either case, all schools are in/on the cusp of 4th quartile matching success, so your choice long-term will not matter for prestige. But it will matter for your happiness and productivity, which can certainly change your outcomes if you are miserable.

But if your self worth haplens to be tied to historical prestige, I'd say Duke has a slight bump.

If your self worth is tied to the prestige of your institution, you don't need medical school. You need therapy. You won't survive in this field.

Prestige is only good because it attracts funding if you're interested in academics. There is no effective difference in class outcomes between these three schools. Go to where you will be happiest. We cannot advise you well on this, because you didn’t give us much of the important intangibles you are looking for.

 

[imsoconfusedplztakemescho]

As someone who has also gone to Pitt for undergrad, I totally understand the feeling of insulation in the city and not truly grasping how much of a behemoth Pitt and UPMC is. I don't want to reiterate what everyone else has said above, but I think something really cool about Pitt and unique in comparison to Cornell and Duke is that it's the only med school in the western PA area. When I talk to med students at Pitt versus other places, I see just the variety of patients Pitt kids get to see and the autonomy that they have which is super cool to me. Also with step 1 going P/F I think research will be important especially for surgical specialties which definitely is something Pitt has an edge on. My last point is that i think pitt med historically has taken a ton of kids from pitt undergrad and pitt's match list shows that it really isn't stopping anyone from going anywhere in the country. Making this decision is completely personal and you're in a phenomenal place with really no wrong decisions. I just wanted to give you my thoughts having gone through this conundrum just a bit ago. Good luck and h2p!!