PLZE READ!!!! "Obama's Health Reform is actually a good thing...."

[ATB Pre Med]

Lately I've been hearing alot about how this new health reform is going to lower the income of physicians, and all in the health industry. But people lets stop and think about what it's REALLY designed to do. There are many threads about this topic. This reform is to HELP our Country, and Economy at the same time. Yes, it may put a dent in our pockets in the future, but not one that's going to hurt our pockets as we all think. Obama, AARP, doctors, hospital administrators, and many others, have come to realize that this health care situation is a SERIOUS contributor to our failing economy. I can imagine many of the people, physicains... etc., that endorse Obama and his reform, are aware that they may lose some income. It's a chain reaction, if we have anymore industries fail such as the Auto, and Aviation industry once has, NO ONW will have health care. Then we'd Really see our pockets start to diminish. But realize it's what we need. If But on the other hand, health care will be available to MILLIONS of other people that is wasn't before. That will give physicians the opportunity to make up for the reduction, and possibly make EVEN more than before. If you are really persuing medicine for the right reasons, you would jump onboard as well. If you're in it completely for the money, then you may be in the wrong field. We have chosen this field to HELP people, and yes to live comfortably, of course. But if you have, or have had someone that you're truely close to, pass away, or suffer because the, simply, can afford health care, or be rejected care because of their lack of insurance, then you could understand. We'll all make very, very nice salaries, but we will truely be doing our part 150% when it comes to helping people. We need this not only for our economy, but also for the millions of us, U.S. citizens, that can't afford proper health care. Some people may fear that it would put the Medical industry into the same boat the aviation industry was in around this time last year, but it's not going to happen. PRICES WILL NOT LOWER THAT MUCH. Do your research, know the details, and tweeks before passing judgement.


It's really what we need to completely revive our struggling economy.

Now....ready.....set.....debate.......

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

naivety at its best

 

[gstrub]

We need this not only for our economy, but also for the millions of us, U.S. citizens, that can't afford proper health care.

No debate necessary. You are an idiot.

 

[ATB Pre Med]

O.K. your opinion. Please explain. It makes perfect sense. If you have a better plan to revive this "mess", please share. All ears. And lets not be OFFENSIVE, or DISRESPECTFUL people. No one's 100% sure, but it's a possibility it may work. People, you dn't know squat about me. Please don't judge. I just REALLY CARE about the people, our COUNTRY, and our ECONOMY. I want to see this storm blow over, and this seems like a very viable solution.

 

[ATB Pre Med]

No debate necessary. You are an idiot.

Where's the love? Why are you people so bitter? And I'm actually NOT an idiot. Sorry. More like, optimistic.

 

[exmissionary]

I am becoming a doctor so I can enjoy a good kickback, great working environment and enjoy the autonomy that physicians now have. I want all that stuff so I can run my own NGO. So I can use my spare time and money helping others. Sure I want to help people BUT I reserve the right to decide how and when I am going to help people. In the end... I paid for my education, I did all the studying therefore I will decide how I am going to spend it [no taxation without representation]. There is much to be said about being able to look at what you have accomplished and realize that you (and your divine creator, if you so believe) have done it. I don't want someone telling me (indirectly or directly) how I will practice my medicine. By having a one payer system the government becomes your boss.

Join my Facebook group against socialized medicine:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=103962114540&ref=search#/group.php?gid=103962114540&ref=nf

 

[Vanguard23]

Paragraphs please.
I don't trust the government with my mail. Why would I trust them with my health?

 

[circulus vitios]

It's cute to see someone sacrificing a salary that he hasn't even earned yet.

 

[EntityMed92]

You might want to wait until the draft of the bill is released to the public before you get your hopes too high. The press conference didn't give many specifics at all, and Obama is only going to make it sound good.

 

[ATB Pre Med]

I am becoming a doctor so I can enjoy a good kickback, great working environment and enjoy the autonomy that physicians now have. I want all that stuff so I can run my own NGO. So I can use my spare time and money helping others. Sure I want to help people BUT I reserve the right to decide how and when I am going to help people. In the end... I paid for my education, I did all the studying therefore I will decide how I am going to spend it [no taxation without representation]. There is much to be said about being able to look at what you have accomplished and realize that you (and your divine creator, if you so believe) have done it. I don't want someone telling me (indirectly or directly) how I will practice my medicine. By having a one payer system the government becomes your boss.

Join my Facebook group against socialized medicine:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=103962114540&ref=search#/group.php?gid=103962114540&ref=nf

I completely, agree. I'm sure we'll still be able to fulfill our dreams and goals. And I HATE bureaucracies. I don't think the government should interfere too much. It's just a lot of people are turning from medicine, and are afraid because of this situation. We have to make the best of it. I don't think it'll be as bad as we think. I do stand behind this, but in his speeches, it doesn't seem asthough the government will be standing over "shoulders", or take full pay checks. I guess we just have to wait and see. But we honestly need something.

 

[DrSno]

Paragraphs please.
I don't trust the government with my mail. Why would I trust them with my health?

Just curious, is this cycle going to be your third or fourth time applying?

 

[circulus vitios]

The only way I'd support this bill is if medical school was free and I worked like a typical federal employee - 40 hours a week, paid overtime, all federal holidays off, no chance of being sued, etc.

 

[ATB Pre Med]

It's cute to see someone sacrificing a salary that he hasn't even earned yet.

Yea, i guess it's the optimistic quality I explained before.

 

[Vanguard23]

Just curious, is this cycle going to be your third or fourth time applying?

Second, why? The first I kinda bailed on because it was kinda botched.

 

[circulus vitios]

I completely, agree. I'm sure we'll still be able to fulfill our dreams and goals. And I HATE bureaucracies. I don't think the government should interfere too much. It's just a lot of people are turning from medicine, and are afraid because of this situation. We have to make the best of it. I don't think it'll be as bad as we think. I do stand behind this, but in his speeches, it doesn't seem asthough the government will be standing over "shoulders", or take full pay checks. I guess we just have to wait and see. But we honestly need something.

You've contradicted yourself in two sentences. Government controlled is the definition of bureaucracy. And why wouldn't they interfere with it? It's their money that's being spent.

 

[ATB Pre Med]

The only way I'd support this bill is if medical school was free and I worked like a typical federal employee - 40 hours a week, paid overtime, all federal holidays off, no chance of being sued, etc.

I agree. It would be nice if we also benefited, directly, from this as well.

 

[Powerplant]

Lately I've been hearing alot about how this new health reform is going to lower the income of physicians, and all in the health industry. But people lets stop and think about what it's REALLY designed to do. There are many threads about this topic. This reform is to HELP our Country, and Economy at the same time. Yes, it may put a dent in our pockets in the future, but not one that's going to hurt our pockets as we all think. Obama, AARP, doctors, hospital administrators, and many others, have come to realize that this health care situation is a SERIOUS contributor to our failing economy. I can imagine many of the people, physicains... etc., that endorse Obama and his reform, are aware that they may lose some income. It's a chain reaction, if we have anymore industries fail such as the Auto, and Aviation industry once has, NO ONW will have health care. Then we'd Really see our pockets start to diminish. But realize it's what we need. If But on the other hand, health care will be available to MILLIONS of other people that is wasn't before. That will give physicians the opportunity to make up for the reduction, and possibly make EVEN more than before. If you are really persuing medicine for the right reasons, you would jump onboard as well. If you're in it completely for the money, then you may be in the wrong field. We have chosen this field to HELP people, and yes to live comfortably, of course. But if you have, or have had someone that you're truely close to, pass away, or suffer because the, simply, can afford health care, or be rejected care because of their lack of insurance, then you could understand. We'll all make very, very nice salaries, but we will truely be doing our part 150% when it comes to helping people. We need this not only for our economy, but also for the millions of us, U.S. citizens, that can't afford proper health care. Some people may fear that it would put the Medical industry into the same boat the aviation industry was in around this time last year, but it's not going to happen. PRICES WILL NOT LOWER THAT MUCH. Do your research, know the details, and tweeks before passing judgement.


It's really what we need to completely revive our struggling economy.

Now....ready.....set.....debate.......

What are the right reasons? job security? financial security? the challenge of the job? I don't think there is a definite set of "right reasons."

I know you meant to help people, but come on. People have to want to help themselves before anything will change. I'm sure a lot of uninsured people today could afford insurance if they chose it over a case of beer and a carton of cigarettes.

I am not saying there are not problems in system, but socialization definitely isn't the answer.

 

[ATB Pre Med]

You've contradicted yourself in two sentences. Government controlled is the definition of bureaucracy. And why wouldn't they interfere with it? It's their money that's being spent.

My point is, we need SOMETHING. I don't think they are planning on taking FULL controll over the healthcare industry; however, he has stated that he plans to lower the costs, rendering it available to nearly all. I'm not 100% sure of how this is gion to end up... HELL THE PRESIDENT isn't sure either. I just think it may not be as bad as some think. THAT's ALL I'm implying. And no, I don't like agree with bureaucracy is some situations. I don't agree with the government fully taking over.

 

[DrSno]

I wonder if doctors will have the choice to only take patients with private insurance.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

obama just wants to control health care just like hes gaining control of the markets... HES A SOCIALIST, HELLO!

 

[xmsr3]

Paragraphs please.
I don't trust the government with my mail. Why would I trust them with my health?

Autonomy my ass, today docs have to check constantly with insurance companies to see if procedures are covered. In fact if a person gets really sick, insurance companies have employees, (ie bureaucrats) to pour through every health form they have ever filled out looking for a reason to dump their coverage. These "bureaucrats" get bonuses for refusing care, if they **** you over they get paid!

Government bureaucrats have no incentive to **** you over. So when you say "Its like the post office running your healthcare!" I say have you been to the post office lately?

I would love it if my health insurance was run like the post office, Fast service, almost 100% reliable and at very reasonable prices,(they mail my secondary packets for $1.75 and they arrive 2 days later!).
And the customer service is a hell of a lot better than Blue Cross!

Besides, there is no logical reason to be against the public option. If the government screws it up as bad as you think, then no one will opt in.

But if it works as well as my local post office, well then most people, (including myself) will choose it and that is what the insurance industry is scared ****less about.

If private insurance is so much more efficient and offers better service than they have nothing to worry about.

 

[ParthVader]

Coming from a person who didn't have health insurance til about one year ago, and who has been to the dentist like twice in his life.. I can say that if I went through it, so can others... sounds sort of cynical, but I'm not going to become a doctor just so I can work long hours, be thousands of dollars in debt, and go through 10 years of schooling... I intend to make sure I live a nice life for all the hard work I'm putting in, and this new health care plan basically robs me of some of my rewards...

Also, do you really believe the medical industry is going to nose dive...? really? I guess people may want to just stop living soon... And it will never come to "NO ONE hav[ing] healthcare"... And by the way, yes healthcare will be available to millions of people, but you'll also see a huge insurance company thats going to want alot of cuts on doctor salaries to save money.. and this company will have alot of bargaining power.. since you know, there will be MILLIONS of people who are a part of it. You need to do some research..

 

[circulus vitios]

My point is, we need SOMETHING. I don't think they are planning on taking FULL controll over the healthcare industry; however, he has stated that he plans to lower the costs, rendering it available to nearly all. I'm not 100% sure of how this is gion to end up... HELL THE PRESIDENT isn't sure either. I just think it may not be as bad as some think. THAT's ALL I'm implying. And no, I don't like agree with bureaucracy is some situations. I don't agree with the government fully taking over.

He will lower costs by reimbursing physicians less. Government will say this MRI should cost $1000 instead of $2000, and reimburse accordingly. Meanwhile, the MRI still costs $2000 in the real world (rental/payments/maintenance/calibration/professional fees/etc) to perform.

 

[WannaBePreMed]

This thread should be close, it serves no purpose.

 

[Hoody]

Join my Facebook group against socialized medicine:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=103962114540&ref=search#/group.php?gid=103962114540&ref=nf

I work for the govt, taking care of veterans. We are actually paid quite well and have better benefits than most others and our patients are generally very satisfied with their care. Probably one of the best parts about it is that the doctors don't have to justify ordering any tests to some insurance criminal who couldn't really care less about people, just the $$$. Furthermore, there is no rush on the Patients...the care is truly comprehensive because if a Vet's medical needs are met they still wont be released until all their needs are met. You definitely don't see that much anywhere else. If doctors paychecks are cut drastically, lets hope that the other expenses (med school, etc.) are equally adjusted. I really do think its outrageous for some doctors to demand that they make 500K+...it kinda reminds me of high paid CEO's that force the rest of the company to live on very menial (in comparison) pay checks so they can rake in an extra 200K a year or whatever. Lets be honest. I spend my days busting my arse over Patients, literally, I carry out almost all the orders the doctors write. They do the brain work, I do the busy work. And no, my school didn't take 8 years (only 6ish!) + residency (which by the way, makes more than most starting salary RN's around my parts) and I didn't walk away from school 300K in debt, but my school certainly wasn't free either. I make less than 80K a year, and I have a pretty enjoyable life BUT I do really enjoy the satisfaction of helping people on such an intimate level (dammit for the voice inside of me that says BE A DOCTOR!! )

So, in a nut shell, sometimes I don't think socialized health care is such a terrible thing.....However, I am totally naive when it comes to the health care reform (just haven't read much about it). Ignorance is bliss?

And please note this post was not meant to inflame or insult anyone. If someone wouldn't mind breaking Obama's plans down into some serious simply terms, I would be oh so greatful.

 

[ATB Pre Med]

What are the right reasons? job security? financial security? the challenge of the job? I don't think there is a definite set of "right reasons."

I know you meant to help people, but come on. People have to want to help themselves before anything will change. I'm sure a lot of uninsured people today could afford insurance if they chose it over a case of beer and a carton of cigarettes.

I am not saying there are not problems in system, but socialization definitely isn't the answer.

Again, I stand corrected. I wish I'd revised, and put this in a speech format. I think people should carry their own weight as well. 100% We have all decided to do something with ourselves, as everyone should. But with the prices jumping, and the wages "flat lining" things are getting tough. With our economy failing, although it's improving slightly, opportunities for employment are scarce. But disease, and sickness doesn't stop, as we all know. Teacher's are a prime example. My high school teachers have devoted their lives to their art, but their wages suck! I agree people should provide for themselves. It's the prices of healthcare that's the immediate issue.

 

[sike08]

My point is, we need SOMETHING. I don't think they are planning on taking FULL controll over the healthcare industry; however, he has stated that he plans to lower the costs, rendering it available to nearly all. I'm not 100% sure of how this is gion to end up... HELL THE PRESIDENT isn't sure either. I just think it may not be as bad as some think. THAT's ALL I'm implying. And no, I don't like agree with bureaucracy is some situations. I don't agree with the government fully taking over.

uh that sounds eerily like the income tax, a "temporary necessity"... hmm.

i agree with Powerplant and Circulus vitios, its our personal responsibility as citizens to change ANYTHING, especially when we elect these leaders and give them our earned money to spend.

 

[266549]

My high school teachers have devoted their lives to their art, but their wages suck!

actually, for the number of years they spend in school and the pressure of their job they get reimbursed quite well, especially if they work in a public school and stick around for a while.
---edit: devoted their lives to their art?????? seriously? 95% (made up stat) of people who devote their lives to their "art" end up pennyless.--
ironically, the better teachers usually work at private schools where they get paid less...but they don't mind because they have the passion for teaching and they care about the students learning. (generally)


oh and btw, you sound like a combination of sound bites from the mass media. just sayin.

but i'm sure a bunch of people who have their degrees in law (if that) know how to run a healthcare BUSINESS.

bottom line: introducing gov't does not create competition (which is what the system needs so prices will go down.) gov't DESTROYS competition.

 

[ATB Pre Med]

I work for the govt, taking care of veterans. We are actually paid quite well and have better benefits than most others and our patients are generally very satisfied with their care. Probably one of the best parts about it is that the doctors don't have to justify ordering any tests to some insurance criminal who couldn't really care less about people, just the $$$. Furthermore, there is no rush on the Patients...the care is truly comprehensive because if a Vet's medical needs are met they still wont be released until all their needs are met. You definitely don't see that much anywhere else. If doctors paychecks are cut drastically, lets hope that the other expenses (med school, etc.) are equally adjusted. I really do think its outrageous for some doctors to demand that they make 500K+...it kinda reminds me of high paid CEO's that force the rest of the company to live on very menial (in comparison) pay checks so they can rake in an extra 200K a year or whatever. Lets be honest. I spend my days busting my arse over Patients, literally, I carry out almost all the orders the doctors write. They do the brain work, I do the busy work. And no, my school didn't take 8 years (only 6ish!) + residency (which by the way, makes more than most starting salary RN's around my parts) and I didn't walk away from school 300K in debt, but my school certainly wasn't free either. I make less than 80K a year, and I have a pretty enjoyable life BUT I do really enjoy the satisfaction of helping people on such an intimate level (dammit for the voice inside of me that says BE A DOCTOR!! )

So, in a nut shell, sometimes I don't think socialized health care is such a terrible thing.....However, I am totally naive when it comes to the health care reform (just haven't read much about it). Ignorance is bliss?

And please note this post was not meant to inflame or insult anyone. If someone wouldn't mind breaking Obama's plans down into some serious simply terms, I would be oh so greatful.

Sure... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32088107/ns/politics-white_house/ or if you don't feel like reading then... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32088459#32088459.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

And I'm actually NOT an idiot.

Im looking for proof???

 

[nick_carraway]

Lately I've been hearing alot about how this new health reform is going to lower the income of physicians, and all in the health industry. But people lets stop and think about what it's REALLY designed to do. There are many threads about this topic.

This is as far as I read, but I completely agree. There have been way too many threads about this topic.

The palaver of a bunch of 18-30 year olds discussing talking points that nobody outside the microcosm of SDN will care about strikes me as a waste of time.

 

[Cunninglinguist]

It's cute to see someone sacrificing a salary that he hasn't even earned yet.

I love it, but yet so true.


I feel like I'm in another liberal coffee shop... Capitalism is eeeeevil! We need the government to tell us how to run our lives! Please give us FREE health care... That one always kills me... Who do these guys think foots the bill? We do, every American who pays taxes that's who. We will get bent over when/if this government health care bill goes through whether you're in medicine or not.

Oh, I also get a kick out of it when a nurse who works 36 hours a week and makes 80K a year with a two year nursing degree says doctors make too much money and we need to cut their pay... B!tch! Do you know how lucky you are to make 80k a year working 3 days a week? And you're saying Docs need a pay cut? WTF!?

 

[TheTigress]

The system that would fit us best is one that we could probably never have: Switzerland's. Why? It combines private and public. Everyone gets a minimal coverage. Want more? OK. You buy it yourself with a private insurance. Physicians can work both and are paid by both sufficiently.

However, this 'public' system would never work in the US like any other public system would never work here. Why is that you ask? Because our country is TOO LARGE. The government could never completely and efficiently organize a system that would effectively cover the millions upon millions of people in the US. Not only that, we have such a huge illegal immigration problem that if we truly did want a 'socialized' system, we would definitely have to come up with a way to either kick them out or create a system that gives them US citizenship and the taxation that comes with it (to pay for that nice public healthcare they might have gotten, well, completely free). We need money to do this.

We do not have money.

What might possibly work for our country is to expand medicaid to the point where it is like a system seen in the social healthcare countries. That way, at least we can cover the poor and lower middle class. Covering them will be enough to drive some of the costs down in the future when we can make a better decision about our system. We do need to cover the uninsured. However, that does not mean that those who have private should lose their insurance. We need to cover the poor and lower middle but if you make above a certain income, you should be required by government law to buy your own insurance. At a certain income, most individuals can afford to buy a healthcare coverage.

But then again, our problem is still twofold: cover the poor and lower middle class AND utilize what is employed in almost every socialized healthcare country - STOP ordering tests that aren't needed and prescribing drugs that are as effective as the cheaper kind. We CAN lower costs but only if we can convince physicians, patients, and insurance companies to cooperate better and find more cost effective ways to treat people. That means, as Obama said today, preventing physicians from ordering the same test again and again just because they dont have another chart that has the test's results from another doctor.

We can learn a lot from the European system of healthcare coverage and, equally, they can learn a lot from us.

 

[niranjan162]

Lately I've been hearing alot about how this new health reform is going to lower the income of physicians, and all in the health industry. But people lets stop and think about what it's REALLY designed to do. There are many threads about this topic. This reform is to HELP our Country, and Economy at the same time. Yes, it may put a dent in our pockets in the future, but not one that's going to hurt our pockets as we all think. Obama, AARP, doctors, hospital administrators, and many others, have come to realize that this health care situation is a SERIOUS contributor to our failing economy. I can imagine many of the people, physicains... etc., that endorse Obama and his reform, are aware that they may lose some income. It's a chain reaction, if we have anymore industries fail such as the Auto, and Aviation industry once has, NO ONW will have health care. Then we'd Really see our pockets start to diminish. But realize it's what we need. If But on the other hand, health care will be available to MILLIONS of other people that is wasn't before. That will give physicians the opportunity to make up for the reduction, and possibly make EVEN more than before. If you are really persuing medicine for the right reasons, you would jump onboard as well. If you're in it completely for the money, then you may be in the wrong field. We have chosen this field to HELP people, and yes to live comfortably, of course. But if you have, or have had someone that you're truely close to, pass away, or suffer because the, simply, can afford health care, or be rejected care because of their lack of insurance, then you could understand. We'll all make very, very nice salaries, but we will truely be doing our part 150% when it comes to helping people. We need this not only for our economy, but also for the millions of us, U.S. citizens, that can't afford proper health care. Some people may fear that it would put the Medical industry into the same boat the aviation industry was in around this time last year, but it's not going to happen. PRICES WILL NOT LOWER THAT MUCH. Do your research, know the details, and tweeks before passing judgement.


It's really what we need to completely revive our struggling economy.

Now....ready.....set.....debate.......

My point is, we need SOMETHING. I don't think they are planning on taking FULL controll over the healthcare industry; however, he has stated that he plans to lower the costs, rendering it available to nearly all. I'm not 100% sure of how this is gion to end up... HELL THE PRESIDENT isn't sure either. I just think it may not be as bad as some think. THAT's ALL I'm implying. And no, I don't like agree with bureaucracy is some situations. I don't agree with the government fully taking over.

First you tell everyone to do their research, which seems like you havent at all, or havent even thought about the consequences; but at least you go on to admit your ignorance.

The president knows exactly what hes doing. He just doesnt want anyone else to know what hes doing until its done because he saw how it tanked hilary's healthcare plan.

Whoever said that they liked the post office and would be happy if healthcare was like that; well you know it will start out like that and then since they can't just stop serving healthcare for a few days a week to makeup for deficits the service will switch over to how the DMV is.

Restructuring healthcare is HORRIBLE for the economy, but good for our nation as a mark of its civility. Putting the country into trillions of debt doesnt make up for the savings we would gain by by companies not having to pay for healthcare (companies take healthcare costs into account when hiring an employee and they get tax breaks for it).

The government now owns the auto industry, most of the banking industry, most of the insurance industry, and soon healthcare. I dont think they can handle one of these things let alone all of them. Just look at medicare, its unsustainable. But thats ok lets add a few million more people.

I was just watching obamas statements today. I have to say the man is a very very good speaker, but if you actually know about the issues you can see its alot of side stepping.

The only way to achieve what he wants is with care rationing, however he wont come out and say this. He could also free up alot of money with some nice incentives for torte reform, but he wouldnt do that to his lawyer buddies.

 

[Cunninglinguist]

Im looking for proof???

All the signs are pointing to him being from Texas...

 

[niranjan162]

This is as far as I read, but I completely agree. There have been way too many threads about this topic.

The palaver of a bunch of 18-30 year olds discussing talking points that nobody outside the microcosm of SDN will care about strikes me as a waste of time.

yea who woulda thought a bunch of wanna be doctors would be talking about sweeping healthcare reform on a forum of/about healthcare workers

 

[red10]

yea who woulda thought a bunch of wanna be doctors would be talking about sweeping healthcare reform on a forum of/about healthcare workers

the problem is that there's less discussion and more personal digs as time goes on. And very rarely is anyone's mind changed.

 

[niranjan162]

the problem is that there's less discussion and more personal digs as time goes on. And very rarely is anyone's mind changed.

tru. However, even so im glad that more and more pre-meds are becoming educated about the process.

We are conceivably the future of medicine. Doctors before us have put us into a bad position by not looking out for the profession. Even if we dont all agree on the types of reforms that need to be done, we can agree that without doctors uniting and standing together, things like torte reform are just a pipe dream. insurance companies, the government, even some patients have no problem walking all over doctors. As a great tv doc once said "live together or die alone" kudos if you get the reference.

 

[Cunninglinguist]

the problem is that there's less discussion and more personal digs as time goes on. And very rarely is anyone's mind changed.

And if it is changed they are weak sauce and their opinion doesn't matter anyway.

 

[bunnity]

We CAN lower costs but only if we can convince physicians, patients, and insurance companies to cooperate better and find more cost effective ways to treat people. That means, as Obama said today, preventing physicians from ordering the same test again and again just because they dont have another chart that has the test's results from another doctor.

The ordering tests over and over is definitely a big problem. At the hospital where I worked we got a lot of transfers from smaller hospitals. We would re-do all the testing to get it into our own computer system. So I was doing EKG's on people that had already had one that morning at their doctor's office or the original hospital. A stat EKG is billed at around $600 - totally unnecessary.

Another thing is that stat testing is billed at a higher amount than routine testing. And I'd say probably 20% of the stat testing I did was really urgent. The rest were because the person putting in the orders (yes, often doctors) just threw the order in as stat because they didn't understand the computer or something - we would get orders listed as "stat for tomorrow morning" which should be in as a timed order not a stat.

My point is that the people ordering tests, as the system is right now, have no motive to make healthcare costs efficient, especially in a hospital where the doctor isn't paying for equipment or technicians. And it's not like it costs the hospital to order much that repeat test (they're paying the EKG tech whether they're paged or not and it takes the cardiologist ~10 seconds to read an EKG) but it does cost the insurance company or the patient. However the system ends up, it needs to actively evaluate cost effective methods of providing healthcare and to streamline records so all the repeat testing doesn't happen.

 

[TexasFight]

This is as far as I read, but I completely agree. There have been way too many threads about this topic.

The palaver of a bunch of 18-30 year olds discussing talking points that nobody outside the microcosm of SDN will care about strikes me as a waste of time.

Haha that's so true. I've been reading SDN for a few months now, and the thing that pushed me over the edge to join as a member was to join these little discussions that don't have any real impact anywhere.

 

[niranjan162]

So we're going to talk to one another about something more complicated than we can admit, debate how each person is more virtuous or pragmatic than the other, and not accomplish anything in the process. Or we can leave our little forum, learn about it from people who are experts, and be better off for it. Or something.

we can also try to educate each other. That is the purpose of the forum. I dont know any experts personally, but if you do please enlighten us.

We can also post articles that we think are relevant, and listen to those of us further along in the process on the boards.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

YAY!!!!!!! For a second there I thought it was a bad move.

 

[jkurtz02]

Autonomy my ass, today docs have to check constantly with insurance companies to see if procedures are covered. In fact if a person gets really sick, insurance companies have employees, (ie bureaucrats) to pour through every health form they have ever filled out looking for a reason to dump their coverage. These "bureaucrats" get bonuses for refusing care, if they **** you over they get paid!

I couldn't agree with you more. People who keep claiming that the government program will cause bureaucrats to make the health decisions are clearly just listening to conservative propaganda and not looking at the current system because right now insurance agents choose who gets coverage and who doesn't and these people get paid if the company pays out less. That sounds like a bit of bureaucracy to me. I am not saying the Obama plan is perfect or socialized medicine is, I am just saying that claiming this reason is BS. I think there are plenty of systems out there to use as a model, but they are too far away from ours to even some how get to those so we need to work on the fly. The other issue being ignored here is that there are two mostly unrelated issues here - universality and cost containment. Until we let doctors, hospital administrators, and other health care providers have a say in the system nothing will be fixed because lawyers, politicians, and bussinessmen don't seem to get this fact, nor do they seem to understand how doctors work. I read an article that stated the average patient at a California hospital costs 2x what the average patient at Mayo clinic costs. Now I think we can agree that the Mayo clinic is one of the top hospitals in this country and if they can find a way to give cost efficient coverage then I think everyone should be able to. I also think that the fact that one place can cost literally twice as much as another speaks to how we need to reform cost coverage because some places are being inefficient even though its clearly possible to do it in an efficient manor.

As a great tv doc once said "live together or die alone"

Great Lost reference, so excited for the final season

 

[niranjan162]

I couldn't agree with you more. People who keep claiming that the government program will cause bureaucrats to make the health decisions are clearly just listening to conservative propaganda and not looking at the current system because right now insurance agents choose who gets coverage and who doesn't and these people get paid if the company pays out less. That sounds like a bit of bureaucracy to me. I am not saying the Obama plan is perfect or socialized medicine is, I am just saying that claiming this reason is BS. I think there are plenty of systems out there to use as a model, but they are too far away from ours to even some how get to those so we need to work on the fly. The other issue being ignored here is that there are two mostly unrelated issues here - universality and cost containment. Until we let doctors, hospital administrators, and other health care providers have a say in the system nothing will be fixed because lawyers, politicians, and bussinessmen don't seem to get this fact, nor do they seem to understand how doctors work. I read an article that stated the average patient at a California hospital costs 2x what the average patient at Mayo clinic costs. Now I think we can agree that the Mayo clinic is one of the top hospitals in this country and if they can find a way to give cost efficient coverage then I think everyone should be able to. I also think that the fact that one place can cost literally twice as much as another speaks to how we need to reform cost coverage because some places are being inefficient even though its clearly possible to do it in an efficient manor.

I agree with the bolded. However, trading in one bureaucracy for another is not something i look forward too. The government will be just as concerned with cost containment as an insurance company if it has to take over. Every other form of socialized healthcare has rationing, and its naive to think we can do it, when we have lower taxes, higher/more unheathly population and not ration.

also cant wait for the season finale.

 

[Bacchus]

No one knows what's going to happen. The current system sucks. I don't see it getting any worse in the foreseeable future. My coverage (thank god for my Dad) is good, but the premiums continue to skyrocket. Last year an ER visit was $50, this year it went to $125, which I understand is much cheaper than footing the bill. Getting my physical, bloodwork, and titers done for medical school also gnawed at me since I knew I had coverage but I had to supplement a portion of the bill in addition to the copay. Quite frankly, I don't see how it could get worse unless we went single-payor and that's not happening.

 

[ephemeralsun]

This healthcare reform bill is important as it'll affect everyone in this forum, potentially. It may seem pointless to some people since words in here might never escape the microcosm of SDN, but this discussion is not about the pointlessness of discussion, it's about the reform bill itself.

If you want to argue about importance and meaning, you should make another thread and then laugh at other people who come here to express their opinions and say how pointless their opinions are. And then you should point out how pointless it is to make a thread about how pointless it is to argue about healthcare reform.

If I'm not clear, by making a post "deriding" how pointless something is, is just as pointless as the post that discusses the pointless issue. If you meant to be constructive you should have made constructive comments.

---

With that said, I agree with you, ATB pre med. This healthcare reform bill is a positive thing. However, your knowledge of the subject and your expression of its positivity makes you appear naive. Everyone should watch Obama's healthcare reform statement.

The healthcare reform bill is complex and it's goal is to increase health coverage, reduce inefficiencies, and decrease costs while increasing our ability to pay for it.

This will not replace private health insurance for people that are happy it.
It'll provide health insurance for people who don't have it.
It'll have laws enforcing health insurance coverage in circumstances where people would lose it. (ie. changing jobs)
It'll limit the ability of health insurance companies to manipulate premiums and costs of health insurance
It'll reduce inefficiencies by centralizing information in computer systems.
It'll reduce redundancies in treatment and overuse of tests in medicaid and healthcare. (we're in debt because of these systems)
Money will come from taxes on people who make more than 250,000
It will not reduce medicare benefits, it'll change them to make them more efficient. (ie. decrease waste)

Of course, this is all dependent on the bill itself and it's too early to say if any of this will come through. In my opinion, it's important that people realize how inefficient and wasteful healthcare is. It's important that people know that a large amount of healthcare is funneled to health insurance companies who at the same time try to reduce "their" costs by limiting access to medicine thereby increasing profit. Of course that doesn't matter if you're fabulously rich with superb coverage.

And I think the focus on the salary part is a bit shallow. I don't understand the circumstances of anyones upbringing and why people on SDN feel entitled to X amount of dollars after becoming a doctor, hence my perception may be limited. I do know that medical school is tough and residency almost as difficult if not worse. I know that becoming a doctor can be overwhelming and impossible at times.

But people have dealt with worse in their lives and somehow they don't feel entitled to anything. Isn't that a bit odd that people who lose their whole family to gang fights and are orphaned at an early age feel like they deserve nothing when they have struggled through so much more in life than any of us; we whose greatest struggle may just be getting into, or through medical school/residency? Of course this is a grand generalization and my opinion. But I think it'll put things into perspective.

I applaud your efforts, ATB pre med. You have my best wishes in your quest to get into medical school.

 

[circulus vitios]

And I think the focus on the salary part is a bit shallow. I don't understand the circumstances of anyones upbringing and why people on SDN feel entitled to X amount of dollars after becoming a doctor, hence my perception may be limited. I do know that medical school is tough and residency almost as difficult if not worse. I know that becoming a doctor can be overwhelming and impossible at times.

But people have dealt with worse in their lives and somehow they don't feel entitled to anything. Isn't that a bit odd that people who lose their whole family to gang fights and are orphaned at an early age feel like they deserve nothing when they have struggled through so much more in life than any of us; we whose greatest struggle may just be getting into, or through medical school/residency? Of course this is a grand generalization and my opinion. But I think it'll put things into perspective.

If you don't feel entitled to a high salary, someone else will be.

 

[fried rice]

Lately I've been hearing alot about how this new health reform is going to lower the income of physicians, and all in the health industry. But people lets stop and think about what it's REALLY designed to do. There are many threads about this topic. This reform is to HELP our Country, and Economy at the same time. Yes, it may put a dent in our pockets in the future, but not one that's going to hurt our pockets as we all think. Obama, AARP, doctors, hospital administrators, and many others, have come to realize that this health care situation is a SERIOUS contributor to our failing economy. I can imagine many of the people, physicains... etc., that endorse Obama and his reform, are aware that they may lose some income. It's a chain reaction, if we have anymore industries fail such as the Auto, and Aviation industry once has, NO ONW will have health care. Then we'd Really see our pockets start to diminish. But realize it's what we need. If But on the other hand, health care will be available to MILLIONS of other people that is wasn't before. That will give physicians the opportunity to make up for the reduction, and possibly make EVEN more than before. If you are really persuing medicine for the right reasons, you would jump onboard as well. If you're in it completely for the money, then you may be in the wrong field. We have chosen this field to HELP people, and yes to live comfortably, of course. But if you have, or have had someone that you're truely close to, pass away, or suffer because the, simply, can afford health care, or be rejected care because of their lack of insurance, then you could understand. We'll all make very, very nice salaries, but we will truely be doing our part 150% when it comes to helping people. We need this not only for our economy, but also for the millions of us, U.S. citizens, that can't afford proper health care. Some people may fear that it would put the Medical industry into the same boat the aviation industry was in around this time last year, but it's not going to happen. PRICES WILL NOT LOWER THAT MUCH. Do your research, know the details, and tweeks before passing judgement.


It's really what we need to completely revive our struggling economy.

Now....ready.....set.....debate.......

You can't appeal to altruism in the face of diminished self-interest, then appeal to self-interest to the neglect of altruism. It is logical to assume that significantly increased patient saturation will lead to significantly lowered quality of care for the population of patients, especially when that increased patient saturation is a result of the financial pressure of diminishing financial returns for treatment of each single patient.

 

[Loveline]

the obama public option is terrible, doesnt cover enough people and will end up costing more than private plans which are out of control in the first place. the rest is ok but it is all moot anyway since it isnt single payer which if you arnt for you are just a greedy, immature person who doesnt give a damn about healthcare in america and probably shouldnt be a doctor.

from that press conference which was more like "obama Live!" , "single payer works great, uhhh, which is why were ummm not getting it" -obama