PMR more competitive than Derm? (among U.S. seniors only)

[random1234]

Am I just interpreting the tables wrong, or is this actually true? I am looking at U.S. Senior only match rate, and I look at those that matched/those applying to PGY-2 positions.

So, using numbers from this table:

For 2014 cycle PGY-2 positions, the numbers are: 334/468 for Derm or 71% matched vs 154/243 for PMR or 63% matched.

Is this accurate?

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[anbuitachi]

uhhhh you can't just look at that to determine competitiveness... one is filled with applicants with board scores avging ~220, the other is a group consisting of 250 avg board scores...

 

[Paddington]

PM&R is not Dermatology, let's stop this foolishness. I would caution you that the job market for new attendings in PM&R is brutal with everything in the medium to large metropolitan areas (including the sucky ones) essentially "spoken for", whether it's pain related, inpatient, or nursing home, which wasn't the case as recently as 3-4 years ago, when practically every idiot and his brother was opening a pain practice, doing lucrative nursing home consults on the side, and having 4-5 PA's helping them out at their soon to be multiple offices.

If you have the board scores and grades for Dermatology then by all means go for that. That's the only field with any kind of security for now and for the future.

 

[Leo Aquarius]

Every field has its ups and downs. Derm's day will come.

wait wait wait, Derm has its job security and future but others join that rank.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Am I just interpreting the tables wrong, or is this actually true? I am looking at U.S. Senior only match rate, and I look at those that matched/those applying to PGY-2 positions.

So, using numbers from this table:

For 2014 cycle PGY-2 positions, the numbers are: 334/468 for Derm or 71% matched vs 154/243 for PMR or 63% matched.

Is this accurate?

It is inaccurate. that's not how you look at those numbers.

 

[314117]

My post from March 17:
I disagree with much of this. As a PM&R grad with a pain fellowship, I could not believe the number of jobs out there. I stayed in my first job after fellowship for 1 year, and when I began looking for a new job, I was overwhelmed with the job market. In 6 weeks I went on 14 job interviews and had 12 job offers, most of which started at $200k or above.

And this was in the greater New York City area, with job offers in Manhattan, the outer boroughs, Long Island, north Jersey, etc (2 of the jobs were in the Philadelphia area, now that I think about it).

And I was somewhat selective with my job search- I feel like I could have gone on many more interviews. And this was in 6 weeks. In one of (if not the most) saturated and desirable metropolitan areas of the country. I am not saying that they were all great jobs, but most of them looked good, without any major red flags.

In my experience, the job market was amazing- way beyond what I imagined it would be.
avalon10, Mar 17, 2014EditReport
#11+ QuoteReply

PM&R is not Dermatology, let's stop this foolishness. I would caution you that the job market for new attendings in PM&R is brutal with everything in the medium to large metropolitan areas (including the sucky ones) essentially "spoken for", whether it's pain related, inpatient, or nursing home, which wasn't the case as recently as 3-4 years ago, when practically every idiot and his brother was opening a pain practice, doing lucrative nursing home consults on the side, and having 4-5 PA's helping them out at their soon to be multiple offices.

If you have the board scores and grades for Dermatology then by all means go for that. That's the only field with any kind of security for now and for the future.

 

[lobelsteve]

My post from March 17:
I disagree with much of this. As a PM&R grad with a pain fellowship, I could not believe the number of jobs out there. I stayed in my first job after fellowship for 1 year, and when I began looking for a new job, I was overwhelmed with the job market. In 6 weeks I went on 14 job interviews and had 12 job offers, most of which started at $200k or above.

And this was in the greater New York City area, with job offers in Manhattan, the outer boroughs, Long Island, north Jersey, etc (2 of the jobs were in the Philadelphia area, now that I think about it).

And I was somewhat selective with my job search- I feel like I could have gone on many more interviews. And this was in 6 weeks. In one of (if not the most) saturated and desirable metropolitan areas of the country. I am not saying that they were all great jobs, but most of them looked good, without any major red flags.

In my experience, the job market was amazing- way beyond what I imagined it would be.
avalon10, Mar 17, 2014EditReport
#11+ QuoteReply

What year and month was this in? The market changes yearly and regionally.

 

[Paddington]

No offense to you if you like New York, but the New York City area always has a ton of job openings in PM&R - for whatever reason that is.

A quick check of the listings at Farrhealthcare, just as an example, reveals at least 4 in and around NYC. Meanwhile, there are zero for metro CA, and basically a spam listing for one of those corporate nursing home jobs for metro TX and Phoenix. There are also zero for metro Detroit, which historically always had quite a few openings, as well as zero for Ohio listed.

 

[Taus]

One aspect to keep in mind,... I found nothing good In the Philly area from listings or recruiters (for pain/spine/msk). However, I had plenty of opportunities though and found a great job. All via personal connections and alumni from residency.

 

[Paddington]

Well, that doesn't change anything, because the poster above had noted he knew of a dozen+ positions open in NYC from personal connections. I think as a rough benchmark, the distribution of listings is accurate as a gauge for how open the job market is in a particular area. For one practice that is actively listing or recruiting, there maybe 4-5 practices that are unofficially looking, by bringing back an old employee, poaching someone else's employee (if there aren't no competes), or calling the local program director(s) to fill a position. The surprisingly large number of unfilled PM&R jobs in NY is not typical of most American metros.

Of course, everyone's experience is different. Doing a pain fellowship does help your employability for outpatient jobs, even if interventional pain is only a very limited component of the overall work. Each extra skill that you bring is a bonus.

 

[314117]

Paddington- did I say that I knew of a "dozen+ positions open in NYC" from "personal connections"?? No, I said that they were jobs in the NYC area, not in NYC, and I said nothing about personal connections. Not a single one of them was through personal connections. And what makes you think that Farr Healthcare is representative of the job market? You seem to think that you have great knowledge of the job market everywhere- have you considered that maybe you don't??

Well, that doesn't change anything, because the poster above had noted he knew of a dozen+ positions open in NYC from personal connections. I think as a rough benchmark, the distribution of listings is accurate as a gauge for how open the job market is in a particular area. For one practice that is actively listing or recruiting, there maybe 4-5 practices that are unofficially looking, by bringing back an old employee, poaching someone else's employee (if there aren't no competes), or calling the local program director(s) to fill a position. The surprisingly large number of unfilled PM&R jobs in NY is not typical of most American metros.

Of course, everyone's experience is different. Doing a pain fellowship does help your employability for outpatient jobs, even if interventional pain is only a very limited component of the overall work. Each extra skill that you bring is a bonus.

 

[Paddington]

Of course I apologize for leaving out the word "area" next to NYC. Whether you knew of these jobs from "personal connections" is beside the point I was making more generally about knowing about jobs from "public" sources like online or journal listings and recruiters who spam emails or from more "private" sources such as alumni networks, personal connections, word of mouth, etc. But in my experience, the listings can be used as a gauge for how open or tight a particular job market is, as well to compare different job markets, whether its different cities or even different fields. For example, if you search through listings at large institutional employers like Kaiser Permanente they have lots of openings in Primary Care and Psychiatry and few if any Radiology, which correlates with folks anecdotal experiences/gripes here on this forum in various threads.

Farr Healthcare is also beside the point. You can go through the AAPM&R job board and patterns are similar. In a popular area like metro Southern California, I counted 2 openings one of which was in academics and the other which seemed to be an extremely shady position at a Neurology/acupuncture clinic.

To answer your question, I've held a few jobs since residency in a few different regions of the country, in different practice situations and have done a bit of everything so far, with the notable exception of Subacute (but have investigated that some time ago as a side job), and I remain licensed in a few different states. I've also interviewed multiple times in various parts of the country. I have paid close attention to the PM&R job market ever since I was in my 4th year of medical school, and have seen significant changes over the past few years as well as changes in people's expectations.

 

[oreosandsake]

[QUOTE="and I remain licensed in a few different states.[/QUOTE]


not to thread hi jack

but quick Q... about to leave residency in a state where I sprung for the permanent license last year. heading to another state to do a fellowship.

unsure if i will return to the state i did residency, but low probability.

now my perm license is about to expire. I did not realize i was applying at the end of a 3 yr cycle.

should i spend the $700 to renew it? it is so much easier this way, than to fill out all that paperwork. looks like all i have to do is provide credit card info.

 

[random1234]

It is inaccurate. that's not how you look at those numbers.

How do you look at the numbers?

I was trying to come up with a % match amongst U.S. seniors, since it wasn't up yet, at the time.

Incidentally, WUSTL has posted the numbers for this year (2014). And PMR was indeed more competitive, with 89% of U.S. seniors matched while Derm had 91% of U.S. seniors matched. Does this not indicate that PMR was slightly more difficult to "get into"?

Although I would like to know how WUSTL comes up with their numbers...I thought combining PGY 1 + PGY 2 might double count applicants. Does anyone know how they come up with the numbers??

Thanks all for the fruitful discussion.

SOURCE: http://residency.wustl.edu/Choosing/SpecDesc/Pages/PhysicalMedicine.aspx

 

[RUOkie]

not to thread hi jack

but quick Q... about to leave residency in a state where I sprung for the permanent license last year. heading to another state to do a fellowship.

unsure if i will return to the state i did residency, but low probability.

now my perm license is about to expire. I did not realize i was applying at the end of a 3 yr cycle.

should i spend the $700 to renew it? it is so much easier this way, than to fill out all that paperwork. looks like all i have to do is provide credit card info.

If there is a chance that you will return there, renew the license.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

How do you look at the numbers?

I was trying to come up with a % match amongst U.S. seniors, since it wasn't up yet, at the time.

Incidentally, WUSTL has posted the numbers for this year (2014). And PMR was indeed more competitive, with 89% of U.S. seniors matched while Derm had 91% of U.S. seniors matched. Does this not indicate that PMR was slightly more difficult to "get into"?

Although I would like to know how WUSTL comes up with their numbers...I thought combining PGY 1 + PGY 2 might double count applicants. Does anyone know how they come up with the numbers??

Thanks all for the fruitful discussion.

SOURCE: http://residency.wustl.edu/Choosing/SpecDesc/Pages/PhysicalMedicine.aspx

Well as you mention, many people who apply to PGY1 spots also apply to PGY2 spots, so you would have to look at the whole aggregate of US med students to get an idea of how competitive it was. Further, PMR is different than other specialties because there is a large # of DOs, who are not counted as US seniors, and that skews the data. Of the independent applications, particularly this year, there were plenty of people like me who are US grads who are switching residencies, and this year happened to be a large year of switchers for whatever reason.

PMR and Derm are not on the same level competitiveness wise. A decent applicant with interest in the field and a few rotations and letters will likely match. In derm, the same cannot be said. Every year there are plenty of people who are great who fail to match. Take a look at the # of US grads between the 2 specialties that did not match and you'll see a big difference.

 

[Mad Jack]

PM&R is not Dermatology, let's stop this foolishness. I would caution you that the job market for new attendings in PM&R is brutal with everything in the medium to large metropolitan areas (including the sucky ones) essentially "spoken for", whether it's pain related, inpatient, or nursing home, which wasn't the case as recently as 3-4 years ago, when practically every idiot and his brother was opening a pain practice, doing lucrative nursing home consults on the side, and having 4-5 PA's helping them out at their soon to be multiple offices.

If you have the board scores and grades for Dermatology then by all means go for that. That's the only field with any kind of security for now and for the future.

http://www.nadnp.net/
http://www.dermpa.org/

I wouldn't say any non-surgical field is truly secure. And most of the surgical stuff dermatologists do, a lot of plastics and GS guys are getting into, while a lot of PCP types are trying to move in on the aesthetic side of derm. I'm not saying it's a field with an insecure future- just that no future is 100% nowadays, save for some of the surgical subspecialties.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

http://www.nadnp.net/
http://www.dermpa.org/

I wouldn't say any non-surgical field is truly secure. And most of the surgical stuff dermatologists do, a lot of plastics and GS guys are getting into, while a lot of PCP types are trying to move in on the aesthetic side of derm. I'm not saying it's a field with an insecure future- just that no future is 100% nowadays, save for some of the surgical subspecialties.

Surgical subspecialties are also not really entirely secure. There are Neurosurg, ortho, ENT, urology PAs.

 

[Mad Jack]

Surgical subspecialties are also not really entirely secure. There are Neurosurg, ortho, ENT, urology PAs.

Yes, but all of them mostly serve as first assists, do routine clinic visits, and monitor patients in the ICU while the attending is out to surgery. You need a surgeon to perform major surgery- NPs and PAs aren't doing hip replacements, cranis, bladder resections, or radical necks.

 

[Chickenandwaffles]

Yes, but all of them mostly serve as first assists, do routine clinic visits, and monitor patients in the ICU while the attending is out to surgery. You need a surgeon to perform major surgery- NPs and PAs aren't doing hip replacements, cranis, bladder resections, or radical necks.

No, but they reduce the # of physicians needed, with an already tiny supply. Look at uro or ENT for example-uro I think has less than 300 spots a year and ENT less than 400. If you have PAs who do some of the more "routine" stuff, you will need less MDs to do that. Works the same as with everything.

 

[Xardas]

Derm is one of those fields you can hang a sign on the side of the road and ppl will self refer themselves in from the general population.

PMR no matter how far it's come is not even in the same galaxy and is way more dependent on physician referrals.

My two cents if you have the grades to consider what you want between these two choose for the sake of what you actually like.

 

[DermViser]

No, but they reduce the # of physicians needed, with an already tiny supply. Look at uro or ENT for example-uro I think has less than 300 spots a year and ENT less than 400. If you have PAs who do some of the more "routine" stuff, you will need less MDs to do that. Works the same as with everything.

Uh, no.

 

[PMR2008]

[QUOTE="and I remain licensed in a few different states.

Renew for sure

 

[Silent Cool]

Wait....people are actually comparing Derm to PMR based on #matched/not matched, etc......??
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

R U F U K C I N G serious? People actually think that PMR is on the same level as Derm? REALLY?!?!

I thought med students were smart...

 

[Dharma]

That's the only field with any kind of security for now and for the future.

"Only" is a stretch. (And I say a solid general surgeon has the best most-needed:least replaceable ratio). The ground is shaky for all and midlevels will flow into all aspects of healthcare. What exactly is keeping derm safe? Having a strong hold on the market by keeping the numbers low? Considering how long it takes to land an appointment these days, more PCPs (and other docs) and midlevels are taking matters into their own hands and performing the in office procedures themselves… and patients are figuring this out, so instead of waiting a month or two (or more) they find someone who will take them in the next week or two.

 

[Mad Jack]

"Only" is a stretch. (And I say a solid general surgeon has the best most-needed:least replaceable ratio). The ground is shaky for all and midlevels will flow into all aspects of healthcare. What exactly is keeping derm safe? Having a strong hold on the market by keeping the numbers low? Considering how long it takes to land an appointment these days, more PCPs (and other docs) and midlevels are taking matters into their own hands and performing the in office procedures themselves… and patients are figuring this out, so instead of waiting a month or two (or more) they find someone who will take them in the next week or two.

I had a general surgeon do a couple of outpatient derm things for me because there are no dermatologists in my area. Turns out his practice had massively expanded the number of surgical derm cases they see because of the derm shortage. If there aren't enough dermatologists, somebody is going to pick up that revenue. Not doing so is like just leaving free money lying on the ground.

 

[bronx43]

"Only" is a stretch. (And I say a solid general surgeon has the best most-needed:least replaceable ratio). The ground is shaky for all and midlevels will flow into all aspects of healthcare. What exactly is keeping derm safe? Having a strong hold on the market by keeping the numbers low? Considering how long it takes to land an appointment these days, more PCPs (and other docs) and midlevels are taking matters into their own hands and performing the in office procedures themselves… and patients are figuring this out, so instead of waiting a month or two (or more) they find someone who will take them in the next week or two.

A non-derm will never replace a dermatologist - the most they can do is pick up the simple procedures. No gen surg, family doc, or even a competent internist would feel comfortable calling a lesion that is anything but textbook.

 

[Dharma]

A non-derm will never replace a dermatologist - the most they can do is pick up the simple procedures. No gen surg, family doc, or even a competent internist would feel comfortable calling a lesion that is anything but textbook.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you there. Same thing goes for other disciplines as well when it comes to a particular facet of expertise. Job security is an illusion. People are always replaceable.

 

[Substance]

"Only" is a stretch. (And I say a solid general surgeon has the best most-needed:least replaceable ratio). The ground is shaky for all and midlevels will flow into all aspects of healthcare. What exactly is keeping derm safe? Having a strong hold on the market by keeping the numbers low? Considering how long it takes to land an appointment these days, more PCPs (and other docs) and midlevels are taking matters into their own hands and performing the in office procedures themselves… and patients are figuring this out, so instead of waiting a month or two (or more) they find someone who will take them in the next week or two.

I think you're on point in regards to general surgeons having the best future prospects along with dermatologists. They're not super-fancy, but they have a skill that the uninitiated would not dare try to emulate. I highly doubt a nurse, or even any other doctor, would ever opt to remove a gallbladder or ischemic gut unsupervised. I also highly doubt a patient would allow it to happen.

Imagine being a patient who needs to be cut open to be saved. Would you let some nurse do that, or would you want the best?

Yes, I know that anesthesiologists are equally as important in the surgical spectrum, but the populace has no idea about that and thus hasn't made those demands.

Nurse surgeons would be unmarketable.

There's an old adage that if one were stuck on a deserted island and could choose one specialist to be there, choosing the general surgeon would be the best bet.

 

[RangerBob]

There's an old adage that if one were stuck on a deserted island and could choose one specialist to be there, choosing the general surgeon would be the best bet.

I haven't met any general surgeons I'd want to be stuck on an island with...

(Sorry--I just had to )