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Podiatry Salary Cap

Discussion in 'Pre-Podiatry Students' started by dinofeet, Dec 22, 2008.

  1. dinofeet

    dinofeet cavs
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    So I am new to this forum and have limited knowledge about the profession. Some of you have been great with answering some of my basic questions....again thank you. I know I might get crucified for asking this question....Pod's salary.....I have read different and conflicting sources. One post said that some make up to 500K/year and people were quite surprise with that....as if that's impossible and inflated. I have an idea what the mean salary is...mid 100K....But what's the possibilities of Pods making 250K to 300K per yer? So, if it sounds like its about the money.....well...a significant part of it is about the money. Thank you in advance!!
     
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  3. Gryhu

    Gryhu Dom
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    Usual starting salary after residency is around $130k-$150k.

    The amount of money a pod can make all depends on how he/she applies themselves. If you work hard in school, match into a good residency and have good business sense, I don't think that grossing a ton of money will be hard to do.

    The most important thing is that you are actually willing to work with the foot and ankle for the rest of your life. If you haven't shadowed a pod yet, I would HIGHLY advise you to do so before committing to this.

    Check out some of the other threads about salary if you have anymore questions. This topic has been beaten to death, lol.
     
    #2 Gryhu, Dec 22, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2008
  4. dinofeet

    dinofeet cavs
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    Thanks for the info
     
  5. Gryhu

    Gryhu Dom
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    Anytime! :thumbup:
     
  6. justtesting

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    the question about how much a pod can make is the same as asking how hard can a pod work... as much as you want.
    pods in their own practice will generally start off much lower but have the sky as the limit. pods working for an employer will generally start out higher but cap out sooner. if you want to make 500k or even 250-300k, you would probably be better off starting your own practice which is a lot of hard work.
    the other thing to keep in mind is location. some states are in much greater need than others. check out page 21 and 22 of this link.
    http://www.apma.org/s_apma/bin.asp?CID=11&DID=22578&DOC=FILE.PDF you'll see a pod in a state such as utah averages significantly less than a pod in a state like oregon. maybe even half as much. i mention utah because i know two pods who practice there. one said she started at 50k a couple years ago as an attending (i'm sure shes making more by now) and the other is making 82k at a trama one hospital doing clinic stuff and surgery. so your estimate of mid 100s is probably accurate for most places but its important to keep in mind the area and the current demand. if you want to make the big bucks you might need to be fairly flexible on your area of practice or just be very business savvy in a pod saturated area.
     
  7. GymMan

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    I still think this is kind of high. Conservative estimates seem more like 80 or 90 to 110K. I still hear horror stories of grads having to go bankrupt on student loans despite residencies. So, to be safe, assume only 100K max and that, after a few yrs out. Maybe 5 yrs out, over 100K for sure but gotta pay your dues.
     
  8. hamlinbeach

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    gymman-- just curious, but what is your affiliation with podiatry? are you a student? prepod? career changer?
     
  9. rom3o

    rom3o New Member
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    I have read a handful of GymMan's posts and would take what he has to say with a grain of salt
     
  10. G0dFather

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  11. phillypd

    phillypd doing BIG Dr things
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    Ok...i don't want to sound like the barer of bad news.......although i like podiatry alot....and considering it as a career......i must say....i have a friend who i haven't seen in a long time who was a pod doc and left the profession because she said she isn't making any money......she became a cop......CRAZY......i think about that all the time as i weigh decision on what i am going to do......and i also want to add.....that everytime i ride by a pod office....it's always closed.....or open 2 days a week. I'm figuring they are somewhere else on those other days or they have no patients
     
  12. uberconfuzzled

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    This has been repeated a bajillion times: you can say the same thing about any health profession, especially dentistry. A lot of dentistry is business based, not to mention equipment is expensive, competition is tough and dental school loans are insane. Overhead for dental clinics as well as liability is high (and dentists have the highest suicide rate of all health professionals). But you still see thousands of students applying to and graduating from dental schools every year and many of them succeed. If you base an entire profession on "a friend of mine told me this," you might as well rule out ALL of medicine and become [fill in the blank].
     
  13. Gryhu

    Gryhu Dom
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    I have a friend who is a pod doc and is doing very very well.....CRAZY!!! :eek:
     
  14. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    I have friends who have succeeded and friends who have failed at virtually every profession you can think of. There are no guarantees. Is that the fault of the profession?
     
  15. NatCh

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    Sounds like me. I'm only in the office 2.5 days per week. The other days I'm either in surgery, on my mountain bike, on my snowboard, or seeing a matinee.
     
  16. UNMorBUST

    UNMorBUST Mystery Man
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    Nice life:D:thumbup:.
     
  17. phillypd

    phillypd doing BIG Dr things
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    well i just thought it was odd that it happened....i know all about the pro and cons (thank u) of professions. I already know that dentists are suicidal.....so uberconfuzzled thanks anyway.
     
  18. UNMorBUST

    UNMorBUST Mystery Man
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    Don't listen to the " he said, she said" things. Like mentioned people fail at every business. Oh, and dentist are not suicidal. Just because you are a dentist does not increase your chances of commiting suicide.
     
  19. NatCh

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    Can't complain. I smile inside whenever someone asks, "How can you work with feet???"
     
  20. UNMorBUST

    UNMorBUST Mystery Man
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    I say "How can you work in retail" touching money is dirty.
     
  21. moldovanits

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    or how can you look at testicles all day?
     
  22. Paulywog

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    Just got back from my practice management club meeting where a podiatrist flew in to speak to us. He is affiliated with the AAPPM. This was the second time I have heard hime speak..he is hilarious! He made me realize how much potential there is with Podiatry. Is there a salary cap in Podiatry? Absolutely not! If you treat people correctly, the money will follow. Everyone needs to stop worrying about how much we will make after residency and do something better with your time. Another thing I pulled away from his message was that we should spend more time on your own health and well-being so we can help others. With the right mentoring, business sense, and great people skills, you will make a ton of money. Stop comparing ourselves to other professions. Worry about yourself and be productive. Hang around more positive people and ignore the negative remarks posted on this forum and from others.
     
  23. Gryhu

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    Exactly. :thumbup:
     
  24. Ibn Alnafis MD

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    I totally agree with you on that prepod, premed, and predental students should focus more on their studying and take the journey one step at a time (stop counting the chickens before the eggs hatch). However, I think there is nothing wrong with wondering and trying to know the potentials and the financial outcome of any profession. Remember that most students will graduate with a six figure debt. In my opinin, it's not worth it to spend about ten years in school and another 3 years in residency just to be able to pull 4k/month after taxes and loan repayments.

    sorry if I offended anyone, that's only my 2 cents!
     
  25. runner0382

    runner0382 Junior Member
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    This is true. However, for those of us on here who are career changers and who've done well in their industry (for example, I know I and another fellow both worked in business), there is a substantial cost to making the decision in terms of lost income involved. For me, it's sizable, but it's a choice I'm willing to make.

    I'd still like to have more hard numbers about podiatry. It appears that lots of people throw gross numbers around which really doesn't mean much. To have a local L.A. podiatrist say that 125k net is a "reach" in the profession is not exactly inspiring after leaving a lucrative career as a young person in a good company. It's not only about the money, but it's an important component involved. Do you think the latest info on the majority of primary care docs being unhappy in their profession would be skewing downward if their take home were closer to 200k instead of 100k for what's now required?
     
    #24 runner0382, Jan 13, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2009
  26. Paulywog

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    There is no limit to how much you can make. Everyone is different and not everyone is going to make the same amount of money so there is no hard number you will receive. You can make as much as you are willing to put in. With good people skills and business skills, of course clinical skills, the sky is the limit. Just contact the AAPPM about the success podiatrists are having and find a successsful podiatrist near your area. I have been to a few. Just because you become a podiatrist doesnt mean you are guaranteed a certain salary, it is how you apply yourself. It is a gamble to take, but I am confident that I will be successful. I know I will make many mistakes, but who doesn't. Some Podiatrists do things inefficiently and need some guidance to improve their practices. I have been to a few of these kinds of practices and they don't seem too happy.

    I see looking into a profession as looking to find a mate. At first money is the most important part about looking for a career, just like looks are for finding a partner. Once you decide on the career, the money isn't much of an issue, but it keeps you motivated and is a nice benefit. Same is true about looks. By the way, the salary websites online are probably not a good source for average incomes. Sure it might give you an average salary, but it does not take into consideration the earnings from owning the practice, buildings, parts of a surgical center or equipment. All of which bring in extra income. You will not get a set figure. Just do some research, shadow, and try to make the best decision for yourself if this is the right career. If you think you could succeed as a podiatrist, then do it.
     
  27. ItsGavinC

    Dentist Moderator Emeritus 15+ Year Member

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    :rolleyes:

    Liability is high? Malpractice insurance is 2k-3k/year. Overhead is 50-60%, but what does that have to do with anything?
     
  28. MaseratiGT

    MaseratiGT Legilimens!
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    I've never seen so much punctuation in my life...............
     
  29. phillypd

    phillypd doing BIG Dr things
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    aww that's too bad! You should get out more! LOL
     
  30. DJ Quik

    DJ Quik Future Podiatrist
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    800K a year. The practice was Downtown Metropolitan area (an expensive one) Cash only, all executives, No insurance billing. Not even 40 hours a week.

    You will never see that ever. Unless you have 10 Drs working for you and you know what you are doing. But at that point, you aren't really a podiatrist...
     
  31. GymMan

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    Quik you talking bay Area or what? :confused:
     
  32. Paulywog

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    Yes you will. I have. Are you talking about the doctor's salary he/she gives themselves or the combined salary and earnings from owning the practice? surgical center? building? Like I said earlier, there is no salary cap. Earnings from procedures alone could have a salary cap but not owning a business.
     
  33. KingJ

    KingJ I Was Justin You
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    sorry, i dont quite see the concensus here...

    i guess this a very broad question but what exactly are the earnings of a podiatrist? I did a search on the forums and all kinds of numbers came up ranging from 45k to 300k... not very helpful
     
  34. GymMan

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    Depends on the day.
     
  35. histreetken

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    I copied the following info from the posts in the DPM versus Carib MD Schools thread.

    As always, these are approximations and I dont think you will ever get consensus on salaries, just because of the private nature of the issue. But if you take a search online, you will come across quite a few sources and then you can average it out. And you can double check your numbers by comparing to MD salaries, which have a lot more info online.

    Here is a breakdown for you, it is a very crude approximation of salaries, I have listed gross and net to give you an idea.

    Just to be clear, Gross salary is the money you make from the practice BEFORE overhead (staff salay/payroll/rent/equip costs) is paid off and NET salary is what you take home after paying your expenses but BEFORE you pay your own income tax.
    Also keep in mind that your income tax can reach levels of 30-40% of your net income. So if a DPM made a gross earning of $200,000, a good way to figure out net is to divide by 1/2, so net would be $100,000 and depending on where you live and your tax structure your net take home after income tax would be $100,000-30%= $70,000. This is simply an example.

    Why am I posting the salaries below? Just to give you an idea that some MDs do envy our lifestyle and earnings. Keep in mind they have more complex pathology to deal with and harder on call times. And if they incorporate FP with OB then that is a dam rough lifestyle and the foot looks ever more appealing.

    Specialty Gross Net
    FP/GP $300-400K $150-200K
    Radiology $400-800K $300-600K
    IM $400-600K $200-300K
    DPM $200-600K $100-300K

    PLEASE DO NOT START A FLAME WAR OVER MY FIGURES!!! THEY ARE MY OWN PRIVATE ESTIMATES AFTER DISCUSSING WITH THE PEOPLE IN THE SPECIALTY. I HAVE POSTED THEM JUST AS AN FYI, DO NOT MSG ME ABOUT HOW FAR OFF I AM.
    :D
     
  36. NatCh

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    Think of your question this way: "What are the exact earnings of a businessperson?"

    Answer: Not enough info.

    There's a huge range because there are numerous ways to practice. Really you can do as much or as little as you want in this profession. I've known people who have made incomes outside of that $45K-$300K range, both directions.

    If I recall correctly the APMA gave a median of around $180K last year (someone else can pull the exact number if he or she would like).
     
  37. Gryhu

    Gryhu Dom
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    According to the 2007 APMA survey, average NET salary (gross minus expenses but before taxes) was $189030.
     
  38. runner0382

    runner0382 Junior Member
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    Ha! Yeah, right. Pure response bias right there. Hopefully younger pre-meds aren't dumb enough to believe that kind of hype without additional info.
     
  39. 165007

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    I find it hard to believe as well.

    Heres a link of the 15 highest paid jobs: http://www.cnbc.com/id/23918484/

    POD is ranked #15

    I dont think this is recent though.
     
  40. G0dFather

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    Why is that net salary before taxes hard to believe?? Ur acting like thats alot of money ! .... That is very reasonable... Stop being ignorant
     
  41. uberconfuzzled

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    I found another site that gives the same listing as you provided and is dated June 2007
    http://maoxian.com/archive/top-25-highest-paying-jobs/

    The site also has people commenting on the list. Not surprisingly, there was an ongoing conversation on the salary of podiatrists and what a podiatric surgeon was. There was a podiatrist who commented on why there is such a discrepancy in reported incomes for podiatrists. I thought it was pretty interesting..
     
  42. Gryhu

    Gryhu Dom
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    I completly agree that people shouldn't buy into hype. They should do their own research before comitting to something. I was just clarifing a point made by the poster before me.

    In addition, all of these pod salary reports include all types of pods. Even the ones that make less than $100k because they lack any type of surgical training. Hopefully when we all graduate pod school we'll end up in a PM&S36 and we'll rake in more money.

    I don't plan on relying solely on my practice for my income. I will supplement it with other things so eventually I can retire from medicine and have a steady source of income.
     
  43. Gryhu

    Gryhu Dom
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    Perfect. :thumbup: Thats exactly what I was saying. You guys should read his post, its very insightful.
     
  44. allenmarchallo

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    Yeah, I saw that link a while ago....I would question how any FP (#9) makes more than other "Physicians & Surgeons" (#12) & how CEO's are (#10)...


    :laugh: @ OMFS (#5) making $164,000 average & Anesthesiologists (#1) making $184,000......We both know these specialties average >$250,000


    Did they forget about CRNA's ???----Last time I checked they averaged > $150k....

    So yeah, I think that CNBC salary is FLAWED big-time....
     
  45. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
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    I'm always wary of salary reports that usually fail to take multiple things into account. On the other hand, my senior residents have had offers starting between 140 and 180K. And this is not suprising at all. Pods that are well-trained medically and surgically are extremely valuable to the medical field as they can produce a lot of $$$ for private practice, ortho, and multi-specialty groups.

    A lot of salary reports are bogus because they report private practice BASE SALARIES and fail to take incentives into account. For example, a pod that I work with started at a base of 90K a few years ago. However, with incentives, he made nearly 200k his first year out. In my experience, salary reports usually low ball pods.
     
  46. Ibn Alnafis MD

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    this site is waaaaaaaaaaay off. I've heard of many, I mean MANY anesthesiologists that make double of what is reported on that site, and I have seen other sites that report an average income of a maxillofacial surgeon of 300K. However, regarding internists and pediatricians' income is a correct estimate.
     
  47. StaphRx

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    You are right, the numbers reported on the site, aren't very accurate. But that's because a lot of the incomes that people are earning, aren't really reported. People are actually making a lot more, especially in dentistry, and it's not reported as high as it really is sometimes. I don't know why, but that's the truth. Maybe this is just an average "minimum" :thumbup: ?
     
  48. NatCh

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    Keep in mind that once you own a practice, your salary is whatever you decide to pay yourself out of your gross collections. The IRS just stipulates that you must pay yourself a "reasonable salary." The more you pay yourself, the more you have to pay into payroll taxes (Medicare, Workers' Comp, etc.) so it does not make sense to pay yourself extra if all you are going to do is let that money sit in your zero-interest checking account. Why pay yourself $180K/year if all you need to make ends meet is $100K/year? Pay yourself what you need. After that it's just for bragging rights. Leave that additional $80K in your business. Or, pay yourself that extra $80K if you have some place to invest it that will earn you more than you'll pay out in payroll taxes and income tax.

    Part of "the game" is to turn what would be your normal expenditures into business expenses. That's part of the reason why people have company cars, business lunches, etc. So when you report your official salary it appears less than you actually got to spend. It's not tax evasion; it's legitimate business practice. It's taxed but at a different rate. It pays to do as much as possible as a form of some business entity rather than as a private entity. Take buying your office for example. Some folks form a separate real estate company that leases the office to their podiatry company. You wouldn't want to buy that office using post-tax personal funds. Having a good Accountant is crucial. I've run so many planned purchases by her and she makes me money. A good Accountant is one of the best investments out there.

    I can't stress enough how financially beneficial it is to own your own practice (includes being a Partner in a multispecialty or Ortho group). Working for someone else is for the birds in so many ways.

    Edit: As a practice owner you might be incorporated as an S-Corp. You pay yourself your reasonable salary and you also pay yourself with dividends. The salary amount is likely what those surveys use, but do they take into account the dividend payments? It's like when you read about a CEO making a salary of $65K but getting dividends and stock options worth millions. It's not all "salary."
     
    #47 NatCh, Jan 25, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2009
  49. NatCh

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    You know what would be great about being an Anesthesiologist? Low overhead! Have any of you ever seen an Anesthesiologist's office? No? Because they don't really need much. I walked into an Anesthesiology group's office one day (their address was in the same building as my office) and it was a single undecorated big room with numerous billers sitting at their computers. They don't need nice furniture, a fountain, art on the walls, medical assistants, a lab, x-ray machines, and all that stuff most doctors' offices do. Imagine grossing $500K per year and netting $450K!
     
  50. toothsome

    2+ Year Member

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    This is so true. For an example, I have a family friend who is an Anesthesiologist. He and 3 friends, who went to SGU, own their own private pain management clinic. They then invested their money, from the company, into a sugical center which they brought in other doctors to do surgeries. That one surgical center turned into three. One of my friends pathners is a fairly young guy but an amazing business man. He tells me he pays himself 100k a year, however this guy has a gallardo a ferrari and an huge house just to name a few material items. If I were to guess i would think he is worth 5-7 million.

    Now im not an accoutant but there is no way a man making 100k can afford all this. His cars and all food and related expenses are run through the comapny. I believe he even runs his kids private school through the company. So just because you see people on the forum talking about "only" getting paid 120k a year that does not mean you simply live off that.

    I worked at a lending company, a very large one, that deals with practice transitions for dental practices. Just to give you an insight some dentists have 2-3 other companys that they channel money through to avoid taxes. I see some dentists make 100k a year but have assets in the millions because of their accoutants savvy ways.

    So once you get a good practice going, get a good accoutant.

    Oh and he still pays off his student loans he says. So everyone should just chill on the student loan debate. Take a business class and you will be fine.
     
    #49 toothsome, Jan 25, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2009
  51. Ibn Alnafis MD

    7+ Year Member

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    Ca you elaborate on what kind of incentives that boost someone's income by 110K a year? is it like some sort of commision per procedure?
     

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