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minoos

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Hi
so far we hase compared D.P.M with D.O or M.D. Now iam going to start a new topic, if you have a choice between dentistry and podiatry which one would you choose and why?. Dr moon, please paticipate in this topic if you can. I appreciate.
thanks
 

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Dude, You are really talking apples and oranges. You gotta do what you like and are interested in. If you said Orthopod or Podiatrist, Opthamologist or Optometrist, it would make a better question.
 

minoos

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Your answer in absolutely correct , but in case of podiatry, as i have heard from people %25 of people who attend podiatry school are dental school rejectees. Go to the podiatry school web sites or ask them, they accept DAT scores. NYCPM sends a flier to whoever takes DAT.So based on schools, it is not a matter of apple and oranges.
 
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I don't know about the 25% being dental school rejects. I would think that if it is the desire of someone to be a dental student, that is what they will continually pursue. Dental school is definetly not a very hard profession to get into unless you are gunning for the top schools. Your GPA does not have to be very high and the DAT is not in the same neighborhood as the MCAT. I do know a DO student who did get in with a 2.6gpa and a 27MCAT score so the numbers don't always tell the truth. I would believe that a large % of the podiatry schools have MD or DO rejects not dental. The people at my school are really insecure and lie all the time about their backgrounds. Many of them have been rejected from MD or DO programs and I don't even think it is b/c of their grades but more with their character. Many of these people are simple and think that they know everything. Just yesterday, some kid told me that they would treat a patient for their ailment once so that they never would came back. This fool does not realize that with the current HMO climate, it is important that you have patients coming back for follow-up visits. You have another student that claims she will only practice in upper-class neighborhoods. What an idiot! I would only believe a small fraction of the students at OCPM. I can't speak of the other schools. Dental school is defienetly not in the same twisted path that podiatry is in b/c you don't have competition from the MDs and DOs for your work. Dentistry does have it's own problems that I think you should research. Later!
 
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johnM

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minoos is obviously just a troll trying to get you flared up. If he had any real interest in either profession, he wouldn't bother asking which one is better. There are some who are interested in each one, and some who aren't.

<img src="http://www.contrabandent.com/cwm/s/contrib/edoom/BarneyKill.gif" alt="" />
 

drmoon

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Minoos

First, I would say that you have to decide if you want to be a dentist or a podiatrist. I know that sounds simplistic, but a lot of podiatry students are in school because they want to be DOCTORS and have little or no knowledge of podiatry. It might be the same for dental students. I don't know.

You won't get the same, overall medical training in dental school that you will in podiatry school (including post-graduate training). While podiatry school focuses on the lower extremity, there is still a lot of general medicine that you need to know. It's not the same in dental school.

Another factor to consider is that dentists have an unusually high suicide rate. There are a lot of theories about this, but I think part of it is that, basically, patients don't want to see you and this might wear on you after a while. I also think it's incredibly boring. And, dentists (like podiatrists) need to be very accomplished business people. If you're not good with business, you shouldn't be in either profession.

One very strong aspect of dentistry is that you are only competing against other dentists. And, contrary to what people might think about podiatry, EVERYONE needs a dentist. There are a LOT of dentists, though, so it might be tough to establish yourself in an area that doesn't require bullet-proof windshields.

My advice is that you need to think very carefully about which profession you can visualize yourself doing for the rest of your life. Both require business skills and are essentially "start up" professions.

If you're planning on living in a rural area, I might choose dentistry. If you have a practice waiting for you, I'd choose podiatry.
 

steiner19er

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i took the DAT twice, and no Pod letter's here.

Sometime, like most of the time, I question where you folks get your info. Basically what you are saying (after pooling all of the asinine things I have read on SDN), since all pre-dents are med school mishaps, is that:::

podiatry students are people who haven;t got into med school, got rejected by dent school, and now want to work on feet.
 

steiner19er

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Visit my new poll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> <a href="http://www.studentdoctor.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=001405" target="_blank">http://www.studentdoctor.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=001405</a>
 

JML1DDS

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Many of you need to get more accurate data. Dental school is extremely competitive. Just as one person might think that dentistry is boring, another might think that podiatry is boring. However, one FACT accounting for the extreme competition to enter dental school is that the average salary for a General Dentist is the same or slightly over the average salary of a General Practitioner MD. Both are roughly $140k nation wide. A GP MD requires 4 yrs med school and at least 3 yrs Post Grad. Medical Residency, a GP DDS requires 4 yrs of dental school and no residency. Most GP DDS's work Mon. - Thur. less than 36 hrs a wk and earn the same as, if not more than, a GP MD. Dental specialists earn comparable amounts to medical specialists. Caring for someone's oral cavity can be just a rewarding as caring for their genitals or their GI tract or even their feet. Don't sit there and dog out all other professions just because you are disgruntled with yours. You are dead wrong when you say that dental school is not competitive. There are more than 5 applicants for each spot in dental school nationwide. The urban legend that dentists have a high suicide rate was taken out of context many many years ago. Please show me where you can quote a survey showing that dentistry has a higher suicide rate than MD, DO, or DPM. The high suicide rate goes for the medical profession in general. MD's have a very high drug and alcohol dependence as well as suicide rates. Don't pull stuff out of the air people. Cosmetic Dentistry, Veneers, Orthodontics, Dental Implants, Connective Tissue grafts, bone contouring, extractions, endodontics, etc. What could possibly be boring about changing and enhancing someone's smile. After all it is what most people notice first about a person, not their feet!!!!!
 

JML1DDS

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Dr. Moon you really need to watch what you are saying. From your comments I can see that you have no idea what the curriculum in dental school is like. We take the EXACT same classes as the medical students. Many dental school have the dental students take classes WITH the medical students. You are saying that to work on the feet you need to know general medical stuff, but to work in the mouth you can just forgo all that other stuff?? Where is HIV most often manifest?? in the mouth, leukemia, other cancers, oral cancer, herpes, hempohilia, Rickets, ectodermal dysplasia, JRA, etc. Dentists administer local anesthetic injections more than any other practitioner period. We are one of the leading prescribers of pain medication, I guess you can cut someone's gums and extract a tooth, or drill on their jaw, without any general medical knowledge??? Dentists have to have a thorough medical background to know the patient's condition, if their condition has oral complications, if our treatment or medication we prescibe will affect their condition or other medication they are taking, etc. We put people to sleep, we operate on people, we get people out of pain. Oddly enough the bacteria most likely to cause SBE are natural flora of the oral cavity. Shouldn't we know which conditions require us to give antibiotics before treatment to avoid infection of spinal hardware in scoliosis patients or infection of a VP shunt, or those petients with MVP or VSD, ASD, PDA. Etc. Dr. Moon you may be beginning your DO career, but you know NOTHING about dentistry, which is par for the course since, most MD's have no clue about the oral cavity, it is a total different world for them ( aside from ENT which still couldn't tell you a cavity from a butthole) STICK TO WHAT YOU KNOW.....Which is NOT dentistry.
 

vixen

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JML1DDS, thanks for clearing up the misconceptions about my future profession :) I can't wait to become a dentist! :) :clap: :clap: :clap:
 

neeky

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I am with Vixen!! Thanks JML, I was reading all those misinformed posts and my blood began to boil!

Its not like dentists don't already get flack from the MDs who seem to be threatened by our profession and therefore hae to put it down..but now this!
 

drmoon

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JML1

I didn't mean to belittle your profession. My information comes from having two close friends who are dentists and from information gathered several years ago when I was considering dentistry.

Obviously, a dentist needs to know the basics of medicine. I understand that you guys give local and general anesthesia and do oral surgery. My point was that during the course of your education, dental students are not as deeply involved in the whole picture of human medicine as an MD or DO student and, to a lesser extent, a DPM student. Just like in podiatry school, your education is skewed towards working on one part of the body. We didn't spend much time learning about the mouth and you guys didn't spend much time learning about the lower extremity.

But, I must take issue with your statement that dental students take the "exact same classes" as medical students. Are you kidding?? You guys might take the same basic sciences (as pod students do), but your 3rd and 4th years and nowhere near as inclusive and grueling as a DO and MD student is. And, you do not do any residencies. This is a very significant difference. This is in no way meant to demean your education or skills, but I know that you do not train "exactly" as an MD student does.

Please enlighten me as to your 6 week on call OB/GYN and Psychiatry. And, while your at it, tell me about how you guys do multiple weeks of general surgery with little to no sleep.
 
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I come from a family of dentists and they will tell you that they DO NOT LEARN about the whole body to the extent of even a podiatrist.The bottom line is that I respect what a dentist does and believe that you can make a great deal of money especially if you do Perio or Maxio. I think the competition really depends on where you wanna go. Please don't bring the general dentists into the loop b/c my uncle, who is a periodontist, always talks about the over-abundance in Philly where he practices and in the other major US cities. Another thing you might wanna do is check the starting salaries again for the fresh out of school General Dentist. Your numbers may be a little skewed!
 

efs

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I, for one, am glad to see this thread.

I held off from replying to see what others might say.

To answer the original question. I never even considered dentistry. I just don't have the interest. Others might.

minoos, I don't know where you got your 25% from but it is pure BS. There is not one person in my class who applied to dentistry. Again, I don't think it is becuase they just wanted to be doctors and this is the only place they could get in, but because they really didn't consider this.

SOME of the schools may accept DATs, but nt all, and I think this is just to increase their applicant pool.

JohnM, Think you might be right, but it doesn't matter. Some people will respond to any troll. But sometimes it can bring up an interesting discussion.

drmoon, once again you are out there talking about stuff you really don't know about. The dentists having a high suicide rate has been a long since discounted myth. The rest of the stuff you post may be just as suspect. Do some research before you go off about anything. I think your advice to look int any profession before entering is very good, and though it comes from hindsight, it might do you well to do so before entering another profession. (From some of your posts I am not sure you have done as much as you might.) Take this as a friendly bit of advice rather than anything antagonistic, please.

steiner19er, I'm on your side. Like your sense of humor. :)

JLM1DDS, Please consider that most of us in podiatry to realise what you do in dentistry. The comments made previously are not the general concensus.

Consider the sources.
 

al

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I apologize if this is pretty lengthy and jumping into a pod forum but heres my 2 cents..

To clear up some points mentioned, dent schools will vary on what they gear their curriculums towards. Some schools literally combine the dents and meds together (Harvard, UPENN, Columbia, UCONN, etc) in classes taught by med school faculty. Basically at these schools, the dents do exactly what the meds do for the first two years (yes, even the anatomy labs,etc). After these two years, the students separate, thus dents do dent clinic stuff, and meds do their med thing.

Other schools gear their curriculums specifically towards dentistry. An analogy that a Columbia dent told me was, "at columbia, you'll have to know all 17 chapters of the book. At other schools, you'll only be responible for the first 8." (if any dents reading this, don't get too offended if you go to one of these schools, its just an exaggeration on the columbia dents part to make his point). These schools are taught mainly by dent faculty. And anatomy training at these schools deal with the upper extremities, and not much on the lower I believe. Thus, the dentist family members of "the message" probably went to one of these schools.

Times have changed in dentistry, thus the curriculums are not what they used to be. These days, all dent schools maintain a high level of medical training in their curriculum. Some on par with med (for the first two years), others slightly below. Reasons are that dentists have a wide array of drugs and anesthetics to provide as mentioned by drmoon, thus knowledge on pharmacology and the medical implications of such medications is a must (for cryin out loud, some procedures require the dentist to put the patient into deep sleep and chop into their jaw, you can't be some random joe to do this). Another reason is that they must know what to do in order to avoid those rare emergencies in the office (allergic reactions to meds, etc). Also, many studies have found links between various oral manifestations with various systemic diseases, thus it would be ideal for a dentist to be able to catch such oral manifestations of these systemic diseases early (since patients generally see their dentist more often than their physician) and recommend an assessment by a physician. And, with a rise in elderly patients due to the baby boom generation, dentists have to be more aware of their physical ailments since this can effect the type of treatment the dentist provides.

DrMoon was correct in the fact that dentists don't go on to med residencies such as ob/gyn and psychiatry, nor are the 3rd and 4th year classes the same as med. However after reading JML1's post, I believe JML1 wasn't trying to claim that point, thus an argument was not necessary. Also, many oral surgeons will be able discuss how they "do multiple weeks of general surgery with little to no sleep." In addition, JML1's salary number, if anything might be slightly low. I've seen higher averages. However, newly graduated dentists won't make this much unless he takes over a practice (many students desire to take over their parents practice, etc), in this case there's the potential of making what ever the previous dentist was earning. For those not as lucky and have to start from scratch, It usually will take several years to make this much money and more, by rising the ranks, paying off debts, becoming associates, building patient pool, taking over or buying practices, etc. However, once again after reading his post, JML1 was only stating an average of what all gen dents make, not what rookies make, thus an argument is not needed on how skewed the averages are. I've actually seen average starting salaries range from 70-100K, depends on what route is taken.

going back to the original "pod vs dentistry" discussion, I believe these are two fields that you really have to want to do. I believe the idea of teeth and feet deter a lot of people from pursuing these fields, but one obviously has to look beyond teeth and feet, and assess what would make someone deal with teeth or feet everyday. I've known I wanted to go dent since sophomore year high school when I had my braces removed, head gear taken off, teeth whitened, and thus went from lookin like Alfred E Newman (MAD Mag.) to a more average normal lookin fella. My jump in self esteem hit me at such a personal note that it motivated me to go dent and thus the desire to provide these same emotions onto others. I could care less of what the stereotypes of dentists are, how disgusting looking into someones mouth is, how often dentists like to jump off rooftops, how stupid one can be to get into dent school, how little a dentist knows compared to a physician, or how high my paycheck will be my first year out. I mean, I do believe you'll never see an NBC primetime show on thursday nights about the drama in the endodontist's office. However, As long as I'm closing gaps, turning barnacle looking teeth into pearly whites, fixing the wretched overbites of slack jawed yokels, filling cavities, slapping on braces, gaining trust and friendly relations from people who are initially scared sh#tless of me, and having patients leave my office with a smile, I'll be completely fulfilled with my life. THe money I'll be earning doing this will be more than enough to take care of my family which is a bonus.

choose a field because you honestly like what you'll be doing every day for 30+years of your life. If that means treating foot disorders thus curing wounds, suppressing pain, making people feel better, I'm all for you. as long you find personal fulfillment, and bring food to the table for your family, or yourself,why not. I have no problem with pods,and frankly find the bashing between md's/do's/dents/opts/pods/pharms, etc that I see on these forums ridiculous and pointless. Whatever you do though, Don't go dent or pod because of the "Dr" in front of your name, the white coat you'll be wearing, or how similar to med school the training is. You'll constantly feel second class to medical doctors if you have this attitude in life. That's not a good way to live. I mean face it, no matter what , you'll never be asked to be an advisor on the set of "ER", appointed US Surgeon General, or approached by someone worried about his or her mysterious flu-like symptoms and be paid for it, but there are much more things to look forward to in life....in my opinion.
 

johnM

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•••quote:•••Originally posted by drmoon:
•JML1

I didn't mean to belittle your profession. My information comes from having two close friends who are dentists and from information gathered several years ago when I was considering dentistry.

Obviously, a dentist needs to know the basics of medicine. I understand that you guys give local and general anesthesia and do oral surgery. My point was that during the course of your education, dental students are not as deeply involved in the whole picture of human medicine as an MD or DO student and, to a lesser extent, a DPM student. Just like in podiatry school, your education is skewed towards working on one part of the body. We didn't spend much time learning about the mouth and you guys didn't spend much time learning about the lower extremity.

But, I must take issue with your statement that dental students take the "exact same classes" as medical students. Are you kidding?? You guys might take the same basic sciences (as pod students do), but your 3rd and 4th years and nowhere near as inclusive and grueling as a DO and MD student is. And, you do not do any residencies. This is a very significant difference. This is in no way meant to demean your education or skills, but I know that you do not train "exactly" as an MD student does.

Please enlighten me as to your 6 week on call OB/GYN and Psychiatry. And, while your at it, tell me about how you guys do multiple weeks of general surgery with little to no sleep.•••••Wow, I'm glad to see that this post turned out some pretty interesting comments. I have a question for Dr. Moon (or anyone)... do podiatry students do clinical rotations like med student? You seem to think that pod students have a much broader cinical education that dentists, but what, exactly, does that entail?
 

PuppyLuv

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why do everybody always compared their curriculum to MD/DO curriculum. i'm in a DO school and i know that the first year of any health care curriculum is very similar because it's the basic science of human body. But if afterward the curriculum differ......... what's wrong with that? That's why we're getting different degree, DDS/DMD...... expert of the oral health (and to some, extending to maxillofacial). DPM .......... expert of the foot health (some from knee and below). MD/DO....... expert in their specialty. All concentrating in different stuff thus different curriculum.
I do think that currently dentist have some of the highest starting salary as my own cousin coming out of pedodontic post graduate training was getting offers left and right and she ended with one at around $1000/day (but she works like crazy)...... and for myself, coming out of a D.O. school, the AACOM project that for the 2005 graduates, our average starting salary will be around $ 90000
 

JML1DDS

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Puppyluv, you are absolutely right!!! I am in my second year of my Pediatric Dentistry residency. There are only about 3000 Pediatric Dentists nation wide. We command some of the highest numbers among specialists. I never made claim to some of the things that drmoon and efs twisted around. I never mentioned anything about STARTING salaries or that we do clinical rotations, etc., etc. I just stated that many of the people commenting about dentistry do so by means of what their unlce's friend who knows a dentist's wife told them. It is amazing that someone goes to pod school and then has a friend who is a dentist or was interested in dental school at some time and then NOW they know everything about dentistry and they enjoy commenting about how dentistry doesn't require as much medical knowledge, etc. It is SAD SAD SAD....The MD's belittle the DO's who belittle the Dentists and Pods. and now you have Pods telling a pediatric dentistry resident about dental school and its requirements. Just be happy with your profession. In the same tone as drmoon and efs, my brother is a urologic surgery resident at Hermann Hosp. in the Texas Medical Center so you do not need to tell me about medical school or Post. Grad Med residencies. I never made claim that dentists were better than pods or we get more medical knowledge than pods, etc. etc. You both are good at putting words in people's mouths (pardon the pun) However, you do not see me making claims about podiatry, Do You? Know why?? Because I believe you probably know more about podiatry than I do, just as you should know that I know more about dentistry than you do. This was a stupid stupid thread to begin with that was started by someone whose intentions were only to start trouble. Everything was fine until people started making far fetched comments about things they didn't know much about. It is amazing to watch some of you because you like to criticize almost all professions except your beloved MD's. Drmoon it is also surprising to see you criticize podiatry so much on other threads stating that upon graduation you most likely will be cutting toenails and corns, but you jump to the defense of podiatry in this thread. It is just odd. Anyhow, never meant to tick anyone off. Just wanted to make sure people get their facts straight. Remember....because you are a doctor people will believe what you say and take it as truth, so, be careful what you say and make sure you can back it up with fact....Not with what someone else told you.
 

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I never said anything about my knowledge of dentistry. I threw some material out there for you to comment on and you wanna take it to another level. I told you that I respect your profession and that was not enough. The only problem I had with some of the points were talk of salary and how much whoever knows about dental procedures. Many of the teachers at my school teach the same classes with the Case Western Dental students and we study together so I know just a little about what we are doing together and separetly. In our forum we talk about the problems in our profession and that leads to comparisons among them such as salaries and schools. Some dentists really end-up not liking their field whether you believe or not. This is something that apparantly you do not like to hear. I don't know why you feel like attacking me if I am trying to have conversation. I think it was really out of line to call my name out like that but it seems that is the style of many people on this forum.
 

efs

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JLM1DDS,

I was wondering what I might have said that set you off. Next response cleared it up for me.
Thanks.

Along this line. For everyone, think about what you are posting before you Add Reply. Consider how it will be taken, and how your responses will reflect on you. There are some posters that nobody takes seriously becuase of the attitude of their replies. With others, I take their comments seriously, becuase of the tone of their previous posts. If you want to be taken seriously be professional about what and how you post.

Take the chips of your shoulders and act like the professionals you what to be.
 
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thesaurus1

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Yikes. I'm officially offering my services as a blood pressure screener. Everybody needs to calm down. Why get a riled up about what someone knows or doesn't know? Afterall, there are always two sides to one coin. For every head, I can provide you with a tail. Which leads me back to the original question.

I think my perspective may clear the air a little. A close friend of mine is entering dental school. I'm entering Pod school. Obviously, the discussion arises constantly about the two chosen career paths. Dentists and pods think entirely different. In my opinion, dentists truly want to be dentists and nothing else. If they don't get in, they go get an MS or something, they don't consider pod school or DO or even MD. At the very least they may consider Pharmacy school or a pre-med MS program to better prepare them for Dental school.

However, I believe pod students do tend to settle for one primary reason. Pod and MD/DO are much closer in all aspects, be it curriculum, testing requirements (MCAT), residencies, etc. As efs alluded to, pod schools take other entrance exams to fatten their applicant pool, not because they are trying to "steal" their students. Therein lies the dichotomy between the two aforementioned schools of thought. Pods accept not being able to enter MD/DO school because podiatry is much closer in all aspects to their original goal than Dentistry will ever be. Now hold on, this applies to those MD/DO/pods not getting in to their original choice, and of course doesn't apply to ALL pods. Some, like myself, actually want to be a pod and have chosen that path regardless of other student's contretemps.

The other information about who makes more, what has a better outlook, and what school is more difficult is a superfluous argument. Some schools are harder, some people will make more, and yes, some professions will have better outlooks. If you are going to post, back it up with specifics (and I don't mean your brothers girlfriends fathers best friend). If you aren't sure or you "heard it through the grapevine," just say so. Don't deem it as an apocalyptical proclamation. Sometimes I wonder if those individuals posting on this column are at their apogee or are grounded.

Here is the bottom line - whatever profession you choose, do your homework and make an informed decision; do not guestimate, it will burn you in the future. There is nothing wrong with any chosen profession, as long as YOU ARE HAPPY. That's what should matter to you, not what other people think. I would rather be as happy as a pig in (a pig stye) trucking garbage all day than an unhappy MD/DO/pod/dent (if you are a garbageman, accept my apology). You'll know it and your patients will know it as well.
 

JML1DDS

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efs, I apologize. I typed your name by mistake.

the message, I am not going to write a long winded response to you. I'll just say that perhaps I misinterpreted your reply to my posts, however, you are the only one on this thread, and many of the other pod threads, that chooses to CURSE at people. There are more pleasant ways to phrase things, AND you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar....I guess I read your response from a different perspective, but if you re-read it you will see it definitely has a very angry tone. Most importantly, I don't know of many people who like being cursed at, even if it is typed!

Again, this was a stupid thread to begin with, and it is sad that there are people out there with nothing better to do with their time than start arguments. There is not "better" between Podiatry and Dentistry, or Pod vs. MD, or DDS vs MD, or DDS vs. DPM. This is all a really really GAY argument. People choose careers for many different reasons and many people make mistakes. There are MD's who hate being MD's and there are definitely DDS's who hate being DDS's. You find that everywhere.

I enjoy looking in on the Pod threads. One of the hospitals I work out of (Texas Scottish Rite) is essentially and Orthopedic Hosp. We see a ton of patients with all kinds of Orthopedic probs. A few DPM's rotate through this hosp. It is cool to learn about that stuff.
 

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The obsecene remarks have been removed. Apologies to all that I may have offended. The only explanation could be that I am presently frustrated with my situation. Good Day and Good Luck to all. Happy Passover or Easter!
 

drmoon

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I stand corrected about the suicide rate for dentists. It has been such a pervasive myth for so long that I bought into it. My apologies.

And, when did I claim to know everything about dentistry and the education leading up to a DDS??

Eric, what's up with this statement? ..." once again you are out there talking about stuff you really don't know about". I may have thrown out about one or two statements, which were my opinion and had no statistical backing (and, I stated that they were), but I don't think it's fair to paint a picture of me like that. Maybe I shouldn't have complimented you on doing some research. It may have gone to your head! A lot of what's posted on these forums is purely opinion and needs to be seen as such. If it's statistically wrong, someone with factual knowledge should step up to the plate and point it out.

Whoever said that I trash podiatry on some threads yet am defending it on this one is mistaken. In this thread, I only pointed out what I thought was true (which, by the way, was confirmed by many of the subsequent posters) and was NEVER comparing podiatry to dentistry. I think that they are similar in that they mimic medical school in the 1st two years, but diverge in the 3rd and 4th years.

I think that pods may get a little bit more exposure to general medicine compared with dental students (which has been stated by several posters here) and that pods do not get the same amount of general medicine exposure as an MD or DO student. What's so inflammatory about that!!?? It's been said many times on many posts. All doctors serve their patients no matter what their specialty is. MD's, DO's, DPM's, DDS's, OD's, etc.

I wouldn't want anyone but a dentist to touch my mouth!!
 

neeky

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JML,

I agreed with all your posts, thank you for the info and the clarification and the classy way in which you approached this thread. I however, am a little disturbed by your use of the word "gay" I am not overtly "PC" but I do attend a very liberal college where many of my friends are in fact Gay, lesbian and trans. I hope you do not use this horrible slang ( i am totally assuming you were being sarcastic) that people sometimes use instead of saying "dumb" "lame" etc. I don't mean to pick on details but it has always been one of my pet peeves and it can be hurtful. Just some friendly thoughts on the matter, and it is true you never know who you could be offending wether it be someone at a cocktail party or even one of your own patients.
Peace!
:D
 

neeky

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Okay,

ummm...now I am really sad. That is exactly what I was hoping you were not using the term gay like that. Gay is supposed to be used to mean "happy, gleeful etc" according to Webster.
In addition gay is to be used to mean homosexual, using it to mean "stupid, silly" is very insulting and used by kids who don't know any better. I hope for your patient's and colleagues' sake that you don't use it around them, because if one of them is gay and you are unaware, they will be totally offended. That in essense, is my point. We all need to be respectful of others even if their lifestyle is in the minority. This kind of misuse and subtle put down of the homosexual community is something that we should stop ourselves from doing no matter how minute and unimportant it may seem.
Let's not be "straight" about these issues. :)
 

efs

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the message,

You don't need to reply to posts like that. It is painfully obvious that he is posting only his uninformed opinion (Class of 2006 - hasn't yet even started his own training, let alone know anything about others). He is trying to be inflammatory. Brush it off. No need to reply to comments like those.
 

efs

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drmoon,

I was not tring to be antagonistic. Many of your comments are opinon and obviously so. Others are opinion, but appear to be presented as fact. (i.e. Dentists suicide rates for one.) there were several others.

What really prompted that comment though, was my impression of your views on MD/DO training. Consider what you thought of DPM training in your first year vs. what you percieve it to be now. At this point you might be considered a pre-DO student. I firmly believe that your perception of their clinical training will change after you have completed it. At this point you seem to be almost militantly upholding the greatness of this training. This leads me to beleive that you haven't looked into it as much as you might. There are DOs out there who talk about how much they think thier training sucked and did not meet up to their expectations.

I think all of these professions have places that offer excellent trainning, and some at which the training might be considered sub-par. Comparing one profession against another is a futile excercise. Asking why one might choose to enter one vs. another can be enlightening and thought provoking, but it is ultimately an individual decision. What is right for one person might not be so for another.
 

efs

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[email protected],

•••quote:•••At least I don't talk **** out of my ass when I don't even know the true statistics about other professions! ••••Umm, yeah you did. Look at your previous post. Who looks like an idiot?
 
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Yah-E

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You know, Eric and Message,

I wish not to continue this BS, exchanging pointless and immature posts in your forum! We're all suppose to be PROFESSIONALS here. Let's just respect each other's profession and refrain on name callings. If you, Message, wish to duke it out, please come down to FL, I would love to have a workout partner! I wish you both success in your profession cause I know I will in mine. :cool:

Again, "Do on to others as they will do on to you"
 

Yah-E

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For those of you claim that dentists has a "high suicidal rate", please provide some hard evidence, research articles, websites, and/or anything else that you may thinks it's valid. I would love to take a look at it.
 

lilic

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yah - how about you roundhouse kick message and knock out his front two teeth.

message - you can chomp off his first metatarsal with your molars.

you can then patch each other up and call it even.
 

steiner19er

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I finally found proof on dentists high suicide rate, STUFF magazine, pg 25, Nov 2001.: "Four out of five dentists wish they were dead"

And everone knows that everything in Stuff magazine is reliable :wink:
 

pakgirl

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I noticed this discussion and felt the need to add my two cents in:
I am starting dental school in the fall and can't wait to start! I am a former pre-med major and decided that dentistry was the best career for me. For some that might seem as if I "settled" for something less. But after being married to an Internist (MD) for four years (he finished his residency a year ago), I can tell you that starting out MDs don't necessarily start making the big money either. I am sure this is the case with every profession whether DDS, MD, or DPM. I chose dentistry because I don't find being on call and waking up in the middle of the night for the rest of my career is my cup of tea! According to someone's post, I guess after not getting into med school, I should have chosen podiatry school.
Finally I think that everyone should just choose a profession and respect other related professions. There will always be pros and cons about EVERY profession!
 

Thebeyonder

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Hi,
Neeky are you a hypocrite? You have gotten mad at me in the past, because I was offended because you called evangelical Christians creepy.

Posted by neeky:
hmmm....perhaps the use of "creepy" was not the right one... perhaps an image?
those strangers that constantly accost you at the street corner about joining their youth groups at their place of worship and won't take no for an answer as they violently shake a crisp brightly colored flyer in your face and seem to be almost foaming at the mouth like a rabid squirrel!
I guess this whole thread just brought back some "creepy" memories...

Is it right for neeky to label evangelical Christians as creepy? Then is it wrong for neeky to get upset when others offend her?
When I told neeky that I myself have friends that are Evangelical and that I was emotionally hurt by her words, this was her response/apology:

If i offended anyone with my post regarding religious people, I am sorry, I suppose the sense of irony/sarcasm i was trying to get across didn't quite make it. But speaking of my seemingly new fave word "creepy" it does sort of make me feel uneasy that you, beyonder, have kept such tabs on my earlier posts! I was merely trying to lighten the mood...as i usually (try to)do in the Lounge, i think sometimes we all all get too stressed out...plus we don't need any animosity amongst our fellow dental people....We need to stick TOGETHER!

So the fact that I was hurt was immediately dismissed due to the fact that neeky labeled me as a stalker. She claimed that she felt uneasy that I kept tabs on her earlier posts. She was merely trying to lighten the mood, I guess when it is at the expense of other people's emotions, then it is considered lightening the mood. She next went on to say that we don't need animosity amongst our fellow predents. I wasn't trying to spread anomosity neeky, I was looking for a sincere apology, I instead was labeled a stalker, and a person that is spreading anomosity.

Posted by neeky:

This kind of misuse and subtle put down of the homosexual community is something that we should stop ourselves from doing no matter how minute and unimportant it may seem.

Will you at the least answer me this neeky? Why is it that we must scrutinize our use of the word gay even in the minutest of instances, yet at the same time it is fine for you to label a Christian as a creep, then to dismiss it as you were only lightening the mood? Why do you insist that people speak in a correct manner towards gays, yet set no criterion for yourself when you speak towards Christians?
 

neeky

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I was not talking to you "beyonder"!!!
Stay out of other people's convos, and learn how to be nice in the meantime! Thanx! :)

PS Please leave me alone.
 

Thebeyonder

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Hi,
I am nice. I am free to share information with all on this forum. If you would like to have a private "convo" then do so via email. This forum, once again, is open to all.
I am nice. Do not insult me please. I am a very compassionate individual.
Leave you alone? Sure. Consider it done. I will no longer talk directly or indirectly to neeky.
 

drmoon

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efs

I consider myself "pre-physician".

To quote you...

"I firmly believe that your perception of their clinical training will change after you have completed it. At this point you seem to be almost militantly upholding the greatness of this training. This leads me to beleive that you haven't looked into it as much as you might. There are DOs out there who talk about how much they think thier training sucked and did not meet up to their expectations".

There is absolutely, positively no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that my clinical training in either a DO school or an MD school will FAR outshine the bogus crap I endured at CCPM. My podiatry years is not an opinion. I was there and I lived every stinking minute of it (let me know if you've read my diatribe concerning my education or if you're interested in reading it).

A DO/MD student's clinical education, while not perfectly uniform, is so far superior and extensive than a DPM student's that it hardly merits mention. Any glance at a book detailing what they are responsible for can tell you this. And their residencies are also very uniform and expose the resident to all facets of medicine (which is not true in podiatry). I'm not so naive to think that there aren't holes in the clinical years for MD's and DO's, but they are at least required to BE PRESENT at these MEDICAL rotations and will have an opportunity to see enough pathology to feel adequately trained.

And I HAVE done a lot of research on this subject. I've read enough books regarding the educational process of both to satisfy me as well as participating in forums and discussion groups. I've also personally spoken to numerous MD's and one DO regarding the educational process (and many other topics). I have never run across a single MD or DO who stated that they felt cheated by their education. NOT ONE! And, I've never read anything like that on any of the forums or discussion groups that I've participated in. NEVER!

You're really stretching when you call me "militant" about the training. C'mon! I know that it isn't going to be perfect, but no matter what, it's going to be a whole lot more relevant than what I wasted my money on. And you also state that there are "...DO's out there who talk about how much they think their training sucked..." Now you're the one who is pulling stuff out of thin air! Who, exactly, are you talking about?

I know that MD's and DO's complain about a lot of things, but I've never heard anyone say that they literally sat on their asses for weeks at a time during some bogus "rotation" or were not allowed to see patients during some other bogus "rotation"! And, none of them complain that they had to take ridiculous, redundant classes during their 3rd years when they should have been out seeing patients! And, I haven't heard an MD or DO say that they never saw the inside of a hospital long enough during their 3rd and 4th years so that they could at least know how the beds worked when they finally started their residencies!!

I could go on, but I think you get the point.
 

ItsGavinC

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•••quote:•••Originally posted by [email protected]:
•You know, Eric and Message,

I wish not to continue this BS, exchanging pointless and immature posts in your forum! •••••Cool! Now if you'd only stop exchanging pointless and immature posts in our pre-dental forum! :)
 

efs

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drmoon,

I don't really care to keep going on with this. It is fairly obvious (to me, at least) that you have a preconcieved notion of what your DO or MD experience will be. I won't continue to try to persuade you to consider that you might feel differently about it after you finish.

There really are posts by DO students, etc., where they complain about their perceptions concerning their training. If you haven't run across any of these, you just haven't run across the same posts I have. (Or talked to the same DOs I have.) I don't feel any need to give you specific names, or re-post the things they have written. You'll need to see those for yourself. Even if I did so, I doubt you would give them any weight. Put your blinders back on and choose a new course to follow. Many of the things you believe about podiatry, others feel about their chosen professions as well. Few numbers, and few post. I just think you might be "buying into" the "propaganda" a bit more than you should. My "militant" phrase is just a term to descibe how you uphold everything about DO and MD schools as being great, while denouncing podiatric education. You are not really presenting a balanced view.

I do not doubt your statements concerning your experiences. I do doubt thay they are the typical experience. It does not match what I have heard or seen here.

Fourth year rotations (here, at least) are largely up to the individual to arrange. If you look into it carefully and know what you want to do, you can find and arrange an excellent set of experiences. If you don't really care, and you want to set up convenient rotations that are close to home, or have "easy" hours, or whatever else, you may end up with an educational experience that is not optimal, and may not lead you where you really want to go.

I feel that the rotations I have set up for my fourth year will give me a very good education. I highly doubt that I will spend any time sitting around. I am quite confident that I will spend a fair amount of time in the OR. I am sure that I will see a fair amount of pathology. I highly doubt that I will have any rotations where I will not be seeing any patients. I am also quite confident that I can hold my own against fourth year MD/DO students.

If you need to know how to work a hospital bed before you start your residency, I can assure you that you can learn that in about 3 minutes. Just ask any of the nurses to show you how. It really isn't that difficult.
 

cg2a93

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Eric, for the life of me I dont know why you keep responding to this person. He obviously has his own agenda. You have posted some very informative posts and are obviously going to be one hell of a physcian it just seems to me like a waste of your time.
Charlton
 

drmoon

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What's my "agenda", Charlton?

Eric, obviously we're at an impasse here. Let me just brief you on the differences between an allopathic's clinical years vs. a pod student.

During their 3rd year, a typical allopathic student's clinical requirements are the following: 8 weeks of Family and Community Medicine, 8 weeks of Surgical Subspecialties, 8 weeks of General Medicine, 8 weeks of Neurology and Psychiatry, 8 weeks of Obstetrics and Gynecology, 8 weeks of Pediatrics and 8 weeks of General Surgery. Medical students are fully involved and have a multitude of responsibilities.

The 3rd year for a podiatry student is approximately 5000 light years away from this. It is mostly didactic. Feel free to correct me.

The 4th year for a podiatry student is in externships, but as you, yourself, admitted, it can be rather a crapshoot. It's uniform for all MD and DO students. And, most of these podiatry externships are not going to be inside a hospital taking care of patients. They are mostly going to revolve around OR time (usually watching), seeing office patients and other, podiatry related things. And, if you are involved in something that is non-podiatry related, there is no guarantee that you're going to be treated as "one of the team". A lot of these non-podiatry externships either do not know what to do with you or they relegate you to the back of the room. Most of these (except for your core externship) are also going to be only one month long, which really doesn't give you enough exposure to really make an impact. Med students continue with their 8 week rotations, which immerses them into each, separate discipline.

Since you view most of what I say as suspect, feel free to point out my errors.

This is my homework. Where's yours??
 

efs

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drmoon,

I'm sorry that I don't have more time to keep entertaining here.

I'll bet those typical 3rd year allopathic students you scheduled above are really great. They must have 28 hours a day as well as the above 56 weeks in that year. Makes me doubt this is really the typical schedule.
 

drmoon

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While I will agree that what I wrote adds up to 56 weeks, I'll gladly share my error with you. I'm just sorry that you chose to nit pick like this and not acknowledge the obvious.

I took this information straight from "The Complete Book of Medical Schools" by the Princeton Review, 2002 edition. It was on page 102 if you are so inclined.

Where I made my calculation error was that they combined Family and Community Medicine with Surgical Subspecialties as a core rotation. I misread this as being two separate core clerkships. Taking this into consideration, it adds up to 48 weeks of REQUIRED core clerkships in honest-to-goodness clinical settings.

Based on your assessment of my homework, it would appear to me that no matter what I present to you, you're going to view it with suspicion. You seem to be unable to go beyond your own militant thinking about podiatry and, perhaps, accept the fact that a medical student spends far more time in clinical situations than any podiatry student. Charlton is also a grand apologist for podiatry and seems unwilling to acquiesce as well.

Based on my own personal experience compared with what I read in this book, it would appear that there IS no comparison. At most, I spent about a total of one month seeing patients in outside "rotations". And, much of this was cutting toenails and calluses.

Since there is no way that you or Charlton can favorably compare a podiatry student's 3rd year clinical year with a medical student, I'll expect no response from either of you.

But if you choose to "entertain" me, I'd love to hear exactly how many weeks and months you guys spent outside of a classroom seeing and evaluating patients for something other than onychomycosis and keratomas.
 
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