Poll (Rank the most important factors that go into medical school admissions)

[torshi]

mcat and gpa is simply the 2 major factors....once you have those down your set then you can do or already have ec's etc..

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[alexandertg6]

What's the Golden Rule of building wealth in America???

You need to spend money to make money. Listen man, do you honestly think a medical school would throw 200k+ of THEIR OWN MONEY on some kid for no freakin reason. HELL NAW! Heck, most "genius's" on this forum would pay double the sticker to go to one of these top medical schools.

They want a return on that investment...and with high MCATers they get that return. Its a proven strategy. Prestige, rankings, alumni support (what specialities do you think high MCAT/Step 1 students match into these days...), so and so forth...

It all comes back to the bottom line: $$$

this.

 

[simondimond]

Cool story. The AAMC survey "spoke with" adcoms from 113 schools.

Like I said dude, I'm not here to get into an argument over MCAT vs.GPA but whether you agree with me or not, the MCAT is the one aspect of your application that will make or break you. GPA can be rehabilitated in many ways.

As far as the AAMC survey, you do realize that those statistics can change at any time.

 

[flatearth22]

Like I said dude, I'm not here to get into an argument over MCAT vs.GPA but whether you agree with me or not, the MCAT is the one aspect of your application that will make or break you. GPA can be rehabilitated in many ways.

As far as the AAMC survey, you do realize that those statistics can change at any time.

Counterargument - MCAT can be repaired by retaking (couple months of study and one 5 hr exam). GPA takes years to repair.

btw I agree with you about MCAT vs GPA. Adcoms understand the MCAT is standardized and is a good balance of knowledge and reasoning. GPA meanwhile is extremely variable due to the differences in the college/university, courses taken, grading policies, types of students you compete with for grades, etc.

 

[girlofgrace7]

Hence why the list in my first post is titled "to get an interview invite" NOT "to get an acceptance."

I understood your post and the article and have read it previously. I was responding to the OP's post on "factors that go into med school admissions."

Pre interview: MCAT/GPA, PS, clinical experience, undergrad institution

I can tell you that most schools don't really look at undergrad institution prior to interview offers (since many screen based off the numbers). I can also tell you that on our admissions council, I only know of one or two people who even take note of the school, and it's merely a "added bonus" for tough coursework... it may explain a slightly lower GPA if that's the only concern but the chances of it affecting the admissions decision is slim.

 

[gettheleadout]

What's the Golden Rule of building wealth in America???

You need to spend money to make money. Listen man, do you honestly think a medical school would throw 200k+ of THEIR OWN MONEY on some kid for no freakin reason. HELL NAW! Heck, most "genius's" on this forum would pay double the sticker to go to one of these top medical schools.

They want a return on that investment...and with high MCATers they get that return. Its a proven strategy. Prestige, rankings, alumni support (what specialities do you think high MCAT/Step 1 students match into these days...), so and so forth...

It all comes back to the bottom line: $$$

Thanks for explaining, though I still find that a little cynical. In any case, what I took issue with was your assertion that those schools "only care about the MCAT" which I still find to be a very reaching statement.

Also, would you guys please give this up...

Just do as well as you can and let the adcoms do their job. You are completely waisting your time here.

Give what up? OP asked a question and we're discussing it, I don't see what the problem is. No one is going to find some magic way to fix everything wrong or build everything up perfectly on their application; we're all just doing our best.

Like I said dude, I'm not here to get into an argument over MCAT vs.GPA but whether you agree with me or not, the MCAT is the one aspect of your application that will make or break you. GPA can be rehabilitated in many ways.

As far as the AAMC survey, you do realize that those statistics can change at any time.

The statistics can change at any time? Does that even mean anything? You could say that about literally any survey data ever collected, but the point is it's the best representative viewpoint we have.

I do agree that the MCAT is a critical part of the application that, despite near perfection in all other aspects, is essential for competitiveness to programs with high averages. I also agree with flatearth, however, and would argue MCAT score is more easily changed than GPA.

 

[Amrazzz]

You can work hard but if you can't pass the STEP 1 or if some school has any doubt that you will score very low, they won't accept you. That is why the MCAT is important; it's predicts your step scores and those are the scores that will get you a competitive residency. My cousin is currently interviewing for surgical residencies and he says that all they seem to be looking at are his board scores. IMO, GPA is a weed out requirement.

I agree. That is why I wasn't complaining. Just merely pointing (granted a bit subjectively) an unfair point about the MCAT.

Also fun fact. Verbal has the LEAST correlation with USMLE success according to AAMC data (great news for me). BS > sGPA > PS > all other GPA >>> Verbal.... The same data shows students with low verbal score pretty high on their boards.

 

[MilkmanAl]

The second list in the survey results ranks factors in terms of importance for offering acceptances, and MCAT scores are still below cGPA and sGPA (though keep in mind these are averages.)

I'm aware of what the survey says, but the data disagree pretty strongly. I'll see if I can dig up that post later today.

 

[simondimond]

I'll give one last example of GPA vs. MCAT.

The following two applicants are vying for only one spot....

You have someone with a 3.95 cum, 4.0 sGPA, a 28, and basic clinical exposure (trad)

You have a 3.4cum, 4.0 sGPAa 33, basic clinical exposure, and an Olympic medal (non-trad)

Who do you think is going to get that spot?

 

[flatearth22]

I'll give one last example of GPA vs. MCAT.

The following two applicants are vying for only one spot....

You have someone with a 3.95 cum, 4.0 sGPA, a 28, and basic clinical exposure (trad)

You have a 3.4cum, 4.0 sGPAa 33, basic clinical exposure, and an Olympic medal (non-trad)

Who do you think is going to get that spot?

That's a terrible example. Haven't you heard of controlling your variables one at a time? Go slap your elementary school science teacher.

 

[theseeker4]

That's a terrible example. Haven't you heard of controlling your variables one at a time? Go slap your elementary school science teacher.

LMFAO, my thoughts exactly...

 

[simondimond]

That's a terrible example. Haven't you heard of controlling your variables one at a time? Go slap your elementary school science teacher.

It's a terrible example to you because you are young and naive.

Unfortunately, that's how admissions works.

 

[flatearth22]

It's a terrible example to you because you are young and naive.

Unfortunately, that's how admissions works.

herp derp

If the 2nd applicant gets in I'm sure his Olympic medal and life experiences will play a big part. You can't say he got in because of his MCAT and then use that as an argument that MCAT is more important than GPA.

 

[PeterPesto]

Sorry to derail this discussion, but would Tom Brady gain acceptance to Harvard if he applied?

 

[flatearth22]

Sorry to derail this discussion, but would Tom Brady gain acceptance to Harvard if he applied?

No Bill Belichick would sabotage his LOR

 

[theseeker4]

It's a terrible example to you because you are young and naive.

Unfortunately, that's how admissions works.

... and comparing the two applicants is a direct comparison/demonstration of MCAT vs GPA how exactly, if one applicant has an Olympic medal?

 

[Chrome19]

herp derp

If the 2nd applicant gets in I'm sure his Olympic medal and life experiences will play a big part. You can't say he got in because of his MCAT and then use that as an argument that MCAT is more important than GPA.

True.

 

[GooseWing]

Go slap your elementary school science teacher.

bahahaha

 

[gettheleadout]

That's a terrible example. Haven't you heard of controlling your variables one at a time? Go slap your elementary school science teacher.

herp derp

If the 2nd applicant gets in I'm sure his Olympic medal and life experiences will play a big part. You can't say he got in because of his MCAT and then use that as an argument that MCAT is more important than GPA.

^ +1

It's a terrible example to you because you are young and naive.

Unfortunately, that's how admissions works.

Good argument lol

 

[centrigeugle]

MCAT is more important than GPA.

Except, you know... the complete opposite of that.

 

[simondimond]

... and comparing the two applicants is a direct comparison/demonstration of MCAT vs GPA how exactly, if one applicant has an Olympic medal?

If you don't understand, then you will figure that out when you apply.

 

[simondimond]

Except, you know... the complete opposite of that.

OK man, go with it.

 

[theseeker4]

If you don't understand, then you will figure that out when you apply.

Now I know what talking to a brick wall feels like. Oh well, I guess not every child can learn after all.

 

[sector9]

I'm aware of what the survey says, but the data disagree pretty strongly. I'll see if I can dig up that post later today.

Are you possibly talking about this thread? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=606875

 

[simondimond]

No hard feelings guys.

I'm just looking out for you.

Don't take it personally.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Are you possibly talking about this thread? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=606875

Yeah, I think that was the one. He did a couple threads on the subject, so I don't recall exactly.

As for that LizzyM graphic, I'm not sure what conclusion you're trying to draw from it. If anything, it just looks like MCAT and GPA are basically equivalent, but in any event, the LizzyM score is just a tool for estimation of what schools you should be looking into. It's not very accurate, to say the least, and it's essentially worthless for people who don't have MCATs and grades both in the same general percentile range.

 

[orthomyxo]

I'll give one last example of GPA vs. MCAT.

The following two applicants are vying for only one spot....

You have someone with a 3.95 cum, 4.0 sGPA, a 28, and basic clinical exposure (trad)

You have a 3.4cum, 4.0 sGPAa 33, basic clinical exposure, and an Olympic medal (non-trad)

Who do you think is going to get that spot?

Wait. You were serious?

 

[gettheleadout]

If you don't understand, then you will figure that out when you apply.

Least helpful response EVAR.

 

[sector9]

Yeah, I think that was the one. He did a couple threads on the subject, so I don't recall exactly.

I don't see the thread as being particularly definitive. If that last graph is what you are talking about, the methodology doesn't support a statement like when you said earlier "the data disagree strongly" or whatever. Excelsius did a great job with his graphs, but I disagree with his GPA vs. MCAT one. The only thing he did was assign a number to each range of MCATs or GPAs. So the range 3.80-4.0 GPA became a 10 on the x-axis, and the associated acceptance % is plotted on the y-axis. The range 39-45 MCAT became a 10 as well with its acceptance % plotted as well.

The problem with his approach is the following (he even hinted at the problem in his post but didn't explain it as a problem): 20.79% of applicants had a GPA between 3.8 and 4.0 but only 1.47% of applicants had a MCAT between 39 and 45. Therefore, the applicants with a "10" on his scale for GPA were a dime a dozen (a full fifth of all applicants) but applicants with a "10" for the MCAT were extremely rare (less than 2%). Therefore, you would easily expect applicants in the top 1.47% of everyone on the MCAT to have a much higher acceptance rate than applicants merely in the top 20.79% of GPA.

Therefore, the data presented in his thread is not convincing that MCAT is way more important than GPA.

 

[simondimond]

One last post and then I'm done with this thread as I will let you youngsters figure this one out the hard way.

Your undergrad GPA is reflective of 14-18 credits a semester of undergraduate-level work.

Your MCAT will predict how you perform on Step 1.

Med School is the equivalent of like 30+ credits of upper level science course work per semester so your 14-18 credits really don't predict anything because the playing field is different.

Step 1 decides if you practice as an Orthopedic Surgeon or if you practice as a family doc in a small practice. Do top schools want to match family practice docs or specialists who will change medicine?

Think hard and figure that out.

Whether you want to agree with me or not, the fact remains that the MCAT will direct your path.

 

[sector9]

As for that LizzyM graphic, I'm not sure what conclusion you're trying to draw from it. If anything, it just looks like MCAT and GPA are basically equivalent, but in any event, the LizzyM score is just a tool for estimation of what schools you should be looking into. It's not very accurate, to say the least, and it's essentially worthless for people who don't have MCATs and grades both in the same general percentile range.

The graph posted above was posted by someone else but made by me. The full methodology is posted in the thread here http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=838625

I believe that my graph is useful to answer the question: Which is better, a LizzyM score composed of a high GPA/low MCAT or low MCAT/high GPA? The answer appears to be that a high GPA/low MCAT is preferred in acceptance percentages.

I think that the most useful part of this graph is when posters show up in WAMC and ask what their strategy should be with their particular stat combination. If they have a LizzyM composed of a 3.2/38, I would tell that person to apply to more "safeties" than their LizzyM of 70 would otherwise indicate since it appears that there's a 20% difference in acceptance percentage between applicants who apply with a low GPA/high MCAT and those who apply with a low MCAT/high GPA.

If people want to use the graph to talk about GPA vs. MCAT then that's fine. But I agree with you MilkmanAl that the graph isn't designed strictly for that purpose.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

One last post and then I'm done with this thread as I will let you youngsters figure this one out the hard way.

Your undergrad GPA is reflective of 14-18 credits a semester of undergraduate-level work.

Your MCAT will predict how you perform on Step 1.

Med School is the equivalent of like 30+ credits of upper level science course work per semester so your 14-18 credits really don't predict anything because the playing field is different.

Step 1 decides if you practice as an Orthopedic Surgeon or if you practice as a family doc in a small practice. Do top schools want to match family practice docs or specialists who will change medicine?

Think hard and figure that out.

Whether you want to agree with me or not, the fact remains that the MCAT will direct your path.

Ok, we get it, you've got a low gpa and this is just an elaborate ego defense to give you hope. But can you stop being so hilarious? I swear....

 

[gettheleadout]

One last post and then I'm done with this thread as I will let you youngsters figure this one out the hard way.

Your undergrad GPA is reflective of 14-18 credits a semester of undergraduate-level work.

Your MCAT will predict how you perform on Step 1.

Med School is the equivalent of like 30+ credits of upper level science course work per semester so your 14-18 credits really don't predict anything because the playing field is different.

Step 1 decides if you practice as an Orthopedic Surgeon or if you practice as a family doc in a small practice. Do top schools want to match family practice docs or specialists who will change medicine?

Think hard and figure that out.

Whether you want to agree with me or not, the fact remains that the MCAT will direct your path.

And what in the world does this have to do with your massive Olympic medal confounding variable?

 

[Morsetlis]

Would Obama get into medical school?

Yes, this thread is like that.

 

[Knocked Up]

Time to shed some light on the truth. Here is how a certain school in the Midwest looks at applicants.

1. MCAT
2. Individual MCAT sections
3. Relook at MCAT
4. Make sure the MCAT is over 38..anything under 37 is too low
5. Make sure every section of that MCAT is 12+
.
.
.
.
.
6. GPA, eeeh who cares? 3.8+ are nice but the MCATs where the $$$ at
.
.
.
7. Attributes that make a good doctor
8. ECs, etc. you know the "meaningless stuff" even the underachievers can accomplish

 

[wololololololo]

Would this school happen to rhyme with Broshington?

 

[gettheleadout]

Time to shed some light on the truth. Here is how a certain school in the Midwest looks at applicants.

1. MCAT
2. Individual MCAT sections
3. Relook at MCAT
4. Make sure the MCAT is over 38..anything under 37 is too low
5. Make sure every section of that MCAT is 12+
.
.
.
.
.
6. GPA, eeeh who cares? 3.8+ are nice but the MCATs where the $$$ at
.
.
.
7. Attributes that make a good doctor
8. ECs, etc. you know the "meaningless stuff" even the underachievers can accomplish

If you're referring to WashU, you'll need to prove that their average matriculant MCAT of 37-38 is solely composed of people with that exact MCAT score and not raised by those with 39+ scores, in which case it would need to be balanced out by those with <37 scores to reach the average it stands at. (i.e. to claim that it's impossible to get in there with less than a 37 MCAT is a joke because the standard statistical assumption is that such an average is reached from a population with scores both above and below the mean.)

Oh, and per USN&WR WashU's average verbal score is less than 12, so there goes that factor. Also, I like how you equated ALL EC's there as if nothing outside of academics or test scores could make someone stand out enough to get them accepted with below average everything else (hint: it's happened.)

This whole thread is full of people making unsupported or anecdotal claims disagreeing with what data actually does exist, and has the fundamental problem of trying to establish universal maxims when exceptions will always exist.

 

[sector9]

If you're referring to WashU, you'll need to prove that their average matriculant MCAT of 37-38 is solely composed of people with that exact MCAT score and not raised by those with 39+ scores, in which case it would need to be balanced out by those with <37 scores to reach the average it stands at. (i.e. to claim that it's impossible to get in there with less than a 37 MCAT is a joke because the standard statistical assumption is that such an average is reached from a population with scores both above and below the mean.)

Oh, and per USN&WR WashU's average verbal score is less than 12, so there goes that factor. Also, I like how you equated ALL EC's there as if nothing outside of academics or test scores could make someone stand out enough to get them accepted with below average everything else (hint: it's happened.)

This whole thread is full of people making unsupported or anecdotal claims disagreeing with what data actually does exist, and has the fundamental problem of trying to establish universal maxims when exceptions will always exist.

I think his/her post was sarcasm, but my detector may be off

 

[Knocked Up]

I think his/her post was sarcasm, but my detector may be off

Cheese, so much for trying to make a funny around here...No need to get all sensitive and all.

And for the record, yes I am hoping that national awards and ECs few kids in the country have attained do outweighs MCATs. This would very much work in my favor if you knew who I were. However, so far it just doesn't seem to be true. That's all.

 

[gettheleadout]

Cheese, so much for trying to make a funny around here...No need to get all sensitive and all.

And for the record, yes I am hoping that national awards and ECs few kids in the country have attained do outweighs MCATs. This would very much work in my favor if you knew who I were. However, so far it just doesn't seem to be true. That's all.

Well I fail. In any case, I do think that it probably depends on the school, as some no doubt place more emphasis than others and different qualities in applicants.

 

[komikos]

Sorry to derail this discussion, but would Tom Brady gain acceptance to Harvard if he applied?