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POLL: Turning away Spanish-Speaking patients?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by jmejia1, Apr 26, 2002.

  1. jmejia1

    jmejia1 Senior Member
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    I was in utter shock when at least two SDNers strongly voiced thier unwillingness to see Spanish-Speaking patients, and made points that if they would see them, they would charge the patient for a translator.

    What would you do if Spanish-speaking patients regulary started to visit you?
     
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  3. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    :rolleyes:

    Nobody said they would "turn away" a Spanish speaking patient. Manipulating the opinions of others is not a good practice. I hope you don't do it often.

    :rolleyes:

    Now that I've voted...

    Two options look good to me: a translator OR a bilingual staff. If you hire a bilingual staff, you will (or should) pay them more. You will probably charge more to collect their salaries. In effect, you are charging everyone for services provided one group. If you hire a translator who is used only when needed, you can pass the fee onto those who use the service. Because I am a conservative capitalist (not a socialist), I selected the translator option.

    Why can't we pick more than one option?

    Again, you really need to avoid opinion manipulation.
     
  4. mongoose

    mongoose Membership Revoked
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    Since I am the other person to whom you are referring, I would like to add that in the other forum I explicitly said to treat them and then send them back to their native country until they learn English.
     
  5. Michelys

    Michelys Senior Member
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    ...oh yeah right :rolleyes: like anyone ever gets paid more for speaking Spanish at their job. It's just a plus!
     
  6. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Michelys:
    <strong>...oh yeah right :rolleyes: like anyone ever gets paid more for speaking Spanish at their job. It's just a plus!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your Spanish is being used by a physician, it's not "just a plus". If one goes into an interview with that attitude, he/she'll get ripped off. It's a skill, and it's use should be compensated.

    If you're washing dishes, your Spanish use is a whole different story! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> You'll just get negative looks from the gringo waiters who think you're talking about them.
     
  7. med student

    med student Senior Member
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    The funny thing about the poll is some people say they will learn basic spanish to treat the patient. The only problem with that is at our school they showed us a video of a doctor with basic spanish talking with the patient. What ending up happening is the doctor ended up missing many of the subtle cues that he would have noticed if the patient spoke english. So the end result is the patient got sub-standard care by the doctor. So if you are going to treat patients who do not speak english good translators are essential. The problem is a small doctors office should not be held responsible to have bilingual staff if it is only needed by a small number of patients. So if I was the doctor in a small office and a patient came in who did not speak english I would try and help the patient find a doctor who could accomodate them. The only way I would accept them as a patient is if the patient was unable to find a doctor in the area. Obviously if you are a doctor in a hospital it is a different situation and there is likely to be translators around.
     
  8. time quaker

    time quaker Senior Member
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    Love the empathetic "send em back" attitude. I'm sure that attitude will bring the hispanic population into your office in droves. I know I'd love to see a doctor that thought that.

    We should definitely have an english competency test at the border. That might not work though, so lets have it set up at the polls before voting. Sounds like Mississippi and Alabama during the early 20th century simply trying to prevent the African Amercian population from voting.
     
  9. Michelys

    Michelys Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Swamp Syphilis, anyone?:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Michelys:
    <strong>...oh yeah right :rolleyes: like anyone ever gets paid more for speaking Spanish at their job. It's just a plus!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your Spanish is being used by a physician, it's not "just a plus". If one goes into an interview with that attitude, he/she'll get ripped off. It's a skill, and it's use should be compensated.

    If you're washing dishes, your Spanish use is a whole different story! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> You'll just get negative looks from the gringo waiters who think you're talking about them.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL...don't get me wrong...I'm Puerto Rican and speak Spanish every blasted day!!! The key word you used is "should be"--which is true. I was rather pointing out alot of times speaking Spanish is just taken as a useful asset--and not compensated for at all. For instance, in South Miami alot of physician's offices expect their secretaries to know Spanish without offering them more for it. And I'm sure they'd love the pay raise! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  10. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Michelys:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Swamp Syphilis, anyone?:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Michelys:
    <strong>...oh yeah right :rolleyes: like anyone ever gets paid more for speaking Spanish at their job. It's just a plus!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If your Spanish is being used by a physician, it's not "just a plus". If one goes into an interview with that attitude, he/she'll get ripped off. It's a skill, and it's use should be compensated.

    If you're washing dishes, your Spanish use is a whole different story! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> You'll just get negative looks from the gringo waiters who think you're talking about them.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL...don't get me wrong...I'm Puerto Rican and speak Spanish every blasted day!!! The key word you used is "should be"--which is true. I was rather pointing out alot of times speaking Spanish is just taken as a useful asset--and not compensated for at all. For instance, in South Miami alot of physician's offices expect their secretaries to know Spanish without offering them more for it. And I'm sure they'd love the pay raise! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well...If it's expected in a majority of offices in that area, it's value is decreased. It's not an "extra" talent. So, I can see why they aren't paid more.
     
  11. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Love the empathetic "send em back" attitude. I'm sure that attitude will bring the hispanic population into your office in droves. I know I'd love to see a doctor that thought that.

    We should definitely have an english competency test at the border. That might not work though, so lets have it set up at the polls before voting. Sounds like Mississippi and Alabama during the early 20th century simply trying to prevent the African Amercian population from voting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IF we had an english competency test, I think plenty of the english speaking populus would fail, american english is atrocious.
     
  12. oldman

    oldman Senior Citizen
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    translaters can make a lot of money (30/hour). i see translators come in with patients all the time.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Michelys:
    <strong>...oh yeah right :rolleyes: like anyone ever gets paid more for speaking Spanish at their job. It's just a plus!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
     
  13. oldman

    oldman Senior Citizen
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    As far as turning away patients, what do you mean? if you are talking about an ER, that's illegal. if you are talking about outpatient services, hopefully they will choose to find a doctor who speaks spanish (assuming they have a choice). i have family friends who are doctors. by being bilingual, they can get a lot more patients and thus have a good practice.
     
  14. UrSexyLatinDr

    UrSexyLatinDr Single and looking =o)~
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    I volunteer at a free clinic here in central cali, where most of the patients are spanish speaking. There are some doctors that are awesome, they do almost the impossible to help their patients, but again, there are some Doctors that are total as**oles, they are only in the field because of the money, those people just piss me off. How would you feel if you are ill, go see a d. and they freaggin turn you away just because of the language barrier. How will a dr. be such a punk to charge the extra money to the patient for a translator, come on, most of these patients are minority, very low income people. People who think like that and are planning to be Physicians better learn spanish and treat their patients as they would like to be treated, not treat them like animals and turn them away. :mad:
     
  15. oldman

    oldman Senior Citizen
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    i don't necessarily see a problem with having a fee for the translator because they are quite expensive.

    if you are an emergency room doc, you certainly can't turn patients away. btw, if you are in it for the money, you should learn spanish, you can tap into a huge market there. yay money.

    i personally don't know if i'll end up learning spanish. i would like to because i work with patients all the time who speak it and very little english. my grandfather was a surgeon and spoke about 7 languages, tell me that isn't useful :)

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by UrSexyLatinDr:
    <strong>I volunteer at a free clinic here in central cali, where most of the patients are spanish speaking. There are some doctors that are awesome, they do almost the impossible to help their patients, but again, there are some Doctors that are total as**oles, they are only in the field because of the money, those people just piss me off. How would you feel if you are ill, go see a d. and they freaggin turn you away just because of the language barrier. How will a dr. be such a punk to charge the extra money to the patient for a translator, come on, most of these patients are minority, very low income people. People who think like that and are planning to be Physicians better learn spanish and treat their patients as they would like to be treated, not treat them like animals and turn them away. :mad: </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
     
  16. thirdangel

    thirdangel Senior Member
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    Hmm...This is tricky. I completely agree that learning spanish is very important when you live in an area where there is a large spanish-speaking population, but I have another question. What do you think about a doctor whose first language is not english turning away spanish-speaking patients? There are tons of foreign medical graduates practicing here in the US. Don't you think that doctor has the right to expect the person to pay extra for a translator or learn English since they had to learn english themselves? Are these doctors a**holes too, just because they don't want to learn a third or fourth language?
     
  17. moo

    moo 1K Member
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    Being from Canada, I can speak French (lived in montreal for a while). So I definitely think having a second (or third) language is useful.

    I am not fluent in spanish, nor have I ever taken a spanish course in my life. It would be great to be fluent in spanish though, but my very limited interactions with spanish-speaking only hispanics, has not been good AT ALL. For instance, I was at OHare one morning, waiting for my flight. I went to a McD's, tried to order just an OJ and the hispanic did not understand a thing I said (she thought I wanted a combo). After pointing and trying in vain to explain to her what I wanted she rudely waved me away.

    I guess my point is, I agree with the posters who think that immigrants to America should learn to speak English. How can one work in as big an airport as OHare and not speak or understand english well enough to be able to understand that I wanted an OJ and not a combo? As for doctors for these immigrants, is this where affirmative action comes in? Maybe we should train more latino docs so they can serve them? But that's a whole other topic.
     
  18. racergirl-it's me

    racergirl-it's me New Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by mongoose:
    <strong>Since I am the other person to whom you are referring, I would like to add that in the other forum I explicitly said to treat them and then send them back to their native country until they learn English.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yikes!
     
  19. med student

    med student Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by oldman:
    <strong>As far as turning away patients, what do you mean? if you are talking about an ER, that's illegal. if you are talking about outpatient services, hopefully they will choose to find a doctor who speaks spanish (assuming they have a choice). i have family friends who are doctors. by being bilingual, they can get a lot more patients and thus have a good practice.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let me try to be a little clearer, my comments were specifically refering to working in a small doctor's office and I said it would be different if I worked in a hospital. So the situation of the ER would not apply and I would completely agree that it would be unethical to turn a patient away in this situation. Second if a patient came in who was sick I would treat them but then at the same time I would suggest they go to another practice which is known to take patients that speak the language the patient speaks. My whole point is I am not trying to penalize the patient because they don't speak english which is why I would treat them initially and then I would try and help them find a doctor who fit there needs better than I could. Please see my earlier comments as to why I think a doctor who treats a patient when the doctor only speaks a basic level of the patient's level does a disservice to the patient if the patient could get access to a quality translator in a different senario. If not then of course the doctor should do everything they can to help a patient. Finally if a doctor doesn't want to learn a language or treat the patients who only speak the language only, then the doctor should not work in a clinical which is primarily composed of these patients such as the doctors you wher refering to at the free clinic.
     
  20. UrSexyLatinDr

    UrSexyLatinDr Single and looking =o)~
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    mongoose you are full of it, damn it, why people like you have to go into the medical profession, people who dont even know what the hell they are talking about. Do you even know why people come to this country? They come to work on the american dream, to make their lifes better, to try to get out of the hole of poverty. How do u expect them to learn english while here if they have the ugliest jobs? Jobs that Most anglos wont do, If it wasnt for migrant workers, USA economy wouldnt be as it is today, lets say Cali, 60% of Americas economy is dependable on cali, why is cali so important? for its agricultural jobs, jobs that anglos wont do. Now, you say to send them back to their country? if you dont have something good to say keep your mouth SHUT! I am really pissed, I came from Mexico 6 years ago, my parents work in the farms, I do, too and its really hard to go to school and have the type of job. I know my people, thats why I am talking like this, Damn it, just dont talk that kind of ****.
     
  21. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    Hmmm... Learning the language would be a TREMENDOUS boost toward the opening to this hole of poverty, don't you think?

    The better able you are to negotiate your employment and express yourself, the better your job opportunities will be.

    Maybe I should let mongoose fight his own battles. :rolleyes: I think we've butted heads in the past, eh?
     
  22. oldman

    oldman Senior Citizen
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    That makes sense, do your best to treat them and refer them to a doctor who would be better for treating them. A logical thing to do.

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by med student:
    <strong>Let me try to be a little clearer, my comments were specifically refering to working in a small doctor's office and I said it would be different if I worked in a hospital. So the situation of the ER would not apply and I would completely agree that it would be unethical to turn a patient away in this situation. Second if a patient came in who was sick I would treat them but then at the same time I would suggest they go to another practice which is known to take patients that speak the language the patient speaks. My whole point is I am not trying to penalize the patient because they don't speak english which is why I would treat them initially and then I would try and help them find a doctor who fit there needs better than I could. Please see my earlier comments as to why I think a doctor who treats a patient when the doctor only speaks a basic level of the patient's level does a disservice to the patient if the patient could get access to a quality translator in a different senario. If not then of course the doctor should do everything they can to help a patient. Finally if a doctor doesn't want to learn a language or treat the patients who only speak the language only, then the doctor should not work in a clinical which is primarily composed of these patients such as the doctors you wher refering to at the free clinic.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
     
  23. deva

    deva Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by med student:
    <strong>... at our school they showed us a video of a doctor with basic spanish talking with the patient. What ending up happening is the doctor ended up missing many of the subtle cues that he would have noticed if the patient spoke english. So the end result is the patient got sub-standard care by the doctor. So if you are going to treat patients who do not speak english good translators are essential. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have watched videos like this also. In one, when the doctor said that he knew some French, the patient began describing his problem in French. It was obvious that the doctor's French wasn't great, and he ended up missing much of what was happening with his patient, which led to a possible misdiagnosis.

    Also, doctors who just know some of the language may not know the culture, which will produce suboptimal care. For example, if the patient comes from a culture that does not believe in removing blood from the body (like the Hmong) doctors who don't know the patient's culture will not understand why the patient refuses to have blood taken. In many cases, this will foster a mutual misunderstanding between doctor and patient, which can lead to poor outcomes.
    Thus, doctors in areas with many non-English-speaking patients need not just translators, but cultural translators, someone who knows the language and the culture. Everyone should read Anne Fadiman's "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down"
     
  24. Doctora Foxy

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by devastator:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by med student:
    <strong>... at our school they showed us a video of a doctor with basic spanish talking with the patient. What ending up happening is the doctor ended up missing many of the subtle cues that he would have noticed if the patient spoke english. So the end result is the patient got sub-standard care by the doctor. So if you are going to treat patients who do not speak english good translators are essential. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have watched videos like this also. In one, when the doctor said that he knew some French, the patient began describing his problem in French. It was obvious that the doctor's French wasn't great, and he ended up missing much of what was happening with his patient, which led to a possible misdiagnosis.

    Also, doctors who just know some of the language may not know the culture, which will produce suboptimal care. For example, if the patient comes from a culture that does not believe in removing blood from the body (like the Hmong) doctors who don't know the patient's culture will not understand why the patient refuses to have blood taken. In many cases, this will foster a mutual misunderstanding between doctor and patient, which can lead to poor outcomes.
    Thus, doctors in areas with many non-English-speaking patients need not just translators, but cultural translators, someone who knows the language and the culture. Everyone should read Anne Fadiman's "The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you for paraphrasing my personal statement so eloquently. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> :D I'm reading that book this summer.

    And Swampy: Immigrants who work in the farms work very hard long days for minimal pay---I don't see when they would have the time to learn English....They are just trying to make a living.
     
  25. UrSexyLatinDr

    UrSexyLatinDr Single and looking =o)~
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    Excatly, learning the language can help them tremendously, but if u dont know how the life of migrant workers are, dont even talk about it. They work long hours, sometimes 7 days a week, they dont have time for school. Also, how are they going to learn english if they sometimes dont even know how to write/read on their native language? Its hard for them and harder the way people treat them and assume things about them without knowing crap about their culture and social aspects in this country. I am saaying this because I have been through there.
     
  26. Lavndrrose

    Lavndrrose Senior Member
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    UrSexyLatinDr, don't let them upset you. :cool: Don't even waste your time on them. Some people will NEVER have a clue how hard life can be for immigrants. I'm sorry that people can be so ignorant sometimes. :rolleyes:
     
  27. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> And Swampy: Immigrants who work in the farms work very hard long days for minimal pay---I don't see when they would have the time to learn English....They are just trying to make a living. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I realize the lives of those who farm are difficult. I hate to bring my family into the pic again, but many of them do work farms. What you've said is really an unreasonable excuse. It's like me saying, "I don't have time to brush my teeth and bathe because I must study P Chem!". Ok...not exactly, but you get the picture.

    If I brush my teeth, my P Chem prof won't hold my funky breath against me. :)
     
  28. vixen

    vixen I like members
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    I am ALL for immigrants coming to this country (heck my parents are immigrants) and everybody (besides n.americans) can trace their roots back and see that their relatives are immigrants too...

    Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is, although I don't *expect* immigrants to speak perfect English, I think it should definitely be encouraged to learn the language...for their everybody's sake, including theirs. Luckily this country is diverse enough that you can still get by w/not so good english, but it definitely should be encouraged...I'm all for diversity, culture etc, but some situations I wouldn't encourage...i.e. when people seclude themselves from other cultures, and speak only their language, only eat their kind of food etc...

    anyways, I would NEVER turn away a patient because they don't speak english well, its not even a question...I'd have to work something out, a translator, ask the patient to bring a friend/family member who speaks english...

    I think its great our country is so diverse, but at the same time, I really hate it when people come here and complain about the country. I knew some foreign students from undergrad who would complain so much about the country, the school systems etc, and I'm thinking "then why did you come here"?? My parents came to this country for what it has to offer...it would be hypocritical to come here and then complain about it. Although technically I'm Indian by family/blood or whatever, I would consider myself American first.

    I think I had a point when I started writing this, but it got lost somewhere :rolleyes:

    P.S. My first language was an Indian language, but my parents forced me to ALWAYS speak English and they always spoke english with me...and now I can't even speak Telegu anymore :( I can understand some, but not all...they probably worked me into overdrive :rolleyes:
     
  29. oldman

    oldman Senior Citizen
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    I just went up to the family birth floor to draw blood and talked with the HUC about translators. She said that there isn't a charge for the patient to use a translator service like a phone one that AT&T offers.
     
  30. owen_osh

    owen_osh Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by UrSexyLatinDr:
    <strong>...They work long hours, sometimes 7 days a week, they dont have time for school...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't a lot of doctors work long hours, sometimes 7 days a week? Nice double standard.

    In an ideal world, doctor's would hire competent translators and be reimbursed for the expense.

    In the real world, non-English-speaking patients will have to bring along a friend, relative, or child who speaks English and can translate.
     
  31. oldman

    oldman Senior Citizen
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    I just went down to the ER to get some blood. The HUC there also said translators are free for the patients. The hospital absorbs the cost there.
     
  32. UrSexyLatinDr

    UrSexyLatinDr Single and looking =o)~
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    You are right Lavndrrose, I am not going to waste my time with ignorants who just say and make stupid/non-sense comments. You guys might be smart academically, but if you dont understand life, you guys arent worth anything.
     
  33. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by UrSexyLatinDr:
    <strong>You are right Lavndrrose, I am not going to waste my time with ignorants who just say and make stupid/non-sense comments. You guys might be smart academically, but if you dont understand life, you guys arent worth anything.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's nice. Thank you.

    Speaking of learning to deal with people of different beliefs, customs, etc... Do you always call people who disagree with you "ignorants". :rolleyes: You can't fly off the hook all the time, man.
     
  34. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    Ya think I've picked an appropriate screen name for this thread? <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
     
  35. racerx

    racerx ASA Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by UrSexyLatinDr:
    <strong>How do u expect them to learn english while here if they have the ugliest jobs? Jobs that Most anglos wont... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't lump all caucasians into the group "anglos", as many of us are not of the group. Only those from Anglo-Saxon descent are generally called that. Just 'cause I'm white don't make me an anglo. Kinda like using the term meztizo to indicate all hispanic peoples.

    Not trying to start another fight here, but if my opinion does that...oh well.

    Even though you asked Mongoose the above referenced question, I feel compelled to answer it for personal reasons. I would expect them to learn English the same way every other non-english speaking immigrant group did when they came here in the early part of the 20th century. Germans, Poles, Finns, Italians, Greeks, etc...they all adapted, rather than forcing their (freely chosen I might add), new homeland's society to adapt to them.

    Why I feel this way:
    My Grandparents came over from Italy and didn't know squat about English. They made it a point to learn as much as they could all while working such lovely jobs as cleaning feces off floors at a State mental institution and emptying oil troughs in a locomotive repair facility. I was raised by them until I was 7 years old, and wasn't allowed to speak Italian to them, even when I was just learning to talk. They would correct me and make me repeat what I had said in English. One unfortunate effect was that now I know nothing in Italian (except for swearing). :D

    I am glad they made the time and effort to learn English. I believe it made their later years much easier on them, not needing someone to translate for them.

    That all being said, I would still like to learn Spanish so as to make not only the Spanish speaking patients experience easier on them, but easier on myself when trying to treat the patients. Also, my grandfather's brother emmigrated from Italy to Argentina when my GFather came to the USA, I'd love to be able to converse with my Argentinian cousins a bit better.

    Ian
    (yeah, yeah...I know I have an "anglo" name. That was my mother's doing. LOL)
    Once again, your mileage may vary. :)
     
  36. Doctora Foxy

    7+ Year Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I would expect them to learn English the same way every other non-english speaking immigrant group did when they came here in the early part of the 20th century. Germans, Poles, Finns, Italians, Greeks, etc...they all adapted, rather than forcing their (freely chosen I might add), new homeland's society to adapt to them.
    </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who said Spanish-speaking immigrants shouldn't learn English? They probably are trying, who said that every other immigrant culture has assimilated and learned English except for Hispanics? You mentioned the early part of the 20th century...well Hispanics are moving into the US everyday, do you expect them to learn English overnight? Where did you get this information?That is simply not true. They should not be forced to learn English just to attain health care. Simple. Period.
     
  37. racerx

    racerx ASA Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Who said Spanish-speaking immigrants shouldn't learn English? They probably are trying, who said that every other immigrant culture has assimilated and learned English except for Hispanics? You mentioned the early part of the 20th century...well Hispanics are moving into the US everyday, do you expect them to learn English overnmight? Where did you get this information?That is simply not true. They should not be forced to learn English just to attain health care. Simple. Period.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First off, calm the h3ll down! I'm not some fascist, hispanic hating, cracker trying to hold anyone down.

    I didn't say anyone even implied that Spanish speaking immigrants shouldn't learn English. I simply replied to the following from UrSexyLatinDr:

    "How do u expect them to learn english while here if they have the ugliest jobs? Jobs that Most anglos wont do..."

    To me, that was sounding like an excuse rather than a reason, based on MY...I say again...MY personal experience. My grandparents had sh*tty jobs, literally in some cases, and still made a paramount effort to at least learn the language. They didn't forsake their culture at all, but did realize that the faster thay could learn English, the easier life would be in their new homeland.

    Also, I do believe that the vast majority of Spanish speaking immigrants are indeed trying to learn English. However, once you reach second generation, or even those that moved here as children and are now adults, English usage should be 'the rule rather than the exception.

    I have known many second generation immigrants from the countries I mentioned in my original post, and have yet to meet any that have a carry-over accent (not that that even would matter)or difficulty with English.

    Yes, I mentioned the early 20th century. You know, back then they were immigrating into the country every day too. I know that they didn't learn English "overnight", nor would any reasonable person expect them to be able to learn English that fast. However, I think that they made every effort to learn it as soon as humanly possible. Maybe it's the result of modern society's apathy, but one gets the feeling that the attitude is one of, "I'll learn it when I get a chance. After all, I'm busting my a$$ working a job the anglos won't do, and don't really have the time. Besides, the government has made many things I need in order to function bi-lingual anyhow."

    I got my information from empirical data in my own life. It's data I collected, therefore I trust it's source. A person that says they make observations and yet doesn't derive conclusions from those observations is a liar.

    Finally, I NEVER said directly, implied, or even would ever believe that Spanish speakers should be deprived of good health care due to an inability to speak English. In fact, I stated in my previous post:

    "That all being said, I would still like to learn Spanish so as to make not only the Spanish speaking patients experience easier on them, but easier on myself when trying to treat the patients."

    Do you think I would want one of my cousins (Italians that assimilated into a Spanish speaking culture) to be visiting and be deprived of health care because they speak Spanish? Of course not! So, please don't make it sound like anyone that has opinions similar to my own is a demon.

    Simple. Period.

    Ian

    Ian's Medical Spanish lesson #1:
    Me llaman Juan. No soy un fascista. = I am called (named) John (Ian is John in Gaelic). I am not a fascist. :rolleyes:
     
  38. CANES2006

    CANES2006 Miami chica
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  39. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by CANES2006:
    <strong>
     
  40. racerx

    racerx ASA Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by CANES2006:
    <strong>
     
  41. time quaker

    time quaker Senior Member
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    I think all of us would agree that it is difficult to learn a new language as you get older. I know that I have spent quite a bit of time trying to learn Spanish and I can't say that I know it even reasonably well. I believe that it is in the best interest of everyone here to know English. However, as an adult working in a field all day or say mowing lawns or working in some other job where you really are not interacting with people all day, and then going home to your family, when are you going to learn English? Poverty is a barrier to learning a language because all of your time is spent making ends meet. So I suppose it is a 'poor' excuse.

    Now, I am sure that the 2nd generation WILL learn the language. Public education would take care of that.

    All of that being said, I think that I would hate to not know English in this country and then have to go to the doctor. What would I have to deal with? "Go back to your country" "oh this one doesn't know english" I can just imagine what fantastic quality of care some of you will be giving the minority population in ten years. It's too bad the process doesn't weed out some of you whose compassion doesn't extend to people who utter different tongues.
     
  42. CANES2006

    CANES2006 Miami chica
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    Look, cracker boy. Your defensive response to Dr. Foxy was enough to convince me that you hate Hispanics. You were just too defensive. And, now with your pompous air of self-righteousness you are trying to give yourself pats on the back for being "tolerant" of Hispanics. Well, you know what? I don't buy it, and neither should most Hispanics reading your posts. Your true colors shined through your first post. So much so that Dr. Foxy picked up on it. Unfortunately, I have crossed paths with many people like yourself. Thank the Lord that not everyone has your ignorant thoughts.
     
  43. daisygirl

    daisygirl woof
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by CANES2006:
    <strong>Look, cracker boy. Your defensive response to Dr. Foxy was enough to convince me that you hate Hispanics. You were just too defensive. And, now with your pompous air of self-righteousness you are trying to give yourself pats on the back for being "tolerant" of Hispanics. Well, you know what? I don't buy it, and neither should most Hispanics reading your posts. Your true colors shined through your first post. So much so that Dr. Foxy picked up on it. Unfortunately, I have crossed paths with many people like yourself. Thank the Lord that not everyone has your ignorant thoughts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was nothing in racerx's post that indicated that he is intolerant. He simply stated his opinion and personal experiences; as did Foxy. Where in racer's post do you see him being facist, racist, etc.. Why the namecalling? Can't people develop an argument without calling each other names? :rolleyes:
     
  44. Doctora Foxy

    7+ Year Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by racerx:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Who said Spanish-speaking immigrants shouldn't learn English? They probably are trying, who said that every other immigrant culture has assimilated and learned English except for Hispanics? You mentioned the early part of the 20th century...well Hispanics are moving into the US everyday, do you expect them to learn English overnmight? Where did you get this information?That is simply not true. They should not be forced to learn English just to attain health care. Simple. Period.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First off, calm the h3ll down! I'm not some fascist, hispanic hating, cracker trying to hold anyone down.

    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought my post was pretty calm. I don't think it necessitated you telling me to "calm the hell down."
     
  45. racerx

    racerx ASA Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by CANES2006:
    <strong>Look, cracker boy. Your defensive response to Dr. Foxy was enough to convince me that you hate Hispanics. You were just too defensive. And, now with your pompous air of self-righteousness you are trying to give yourself pats on the back for being "tolerant" of Hispanics. Well, you know what? I don't buy it, and neither should most Hispanics reading your posts. Your true colors shined through your first post. So much so that Dr. Foxy picked up on it. Unfortunately, I have crossed paths with many people like yourself. Thank the Lord that not everyone has your ignorant thoughts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">1. You resort to name calling and say my responses were too defensive? If I am to respond to someones post and defend my position, is there a lesser level of defensive that I must take that doesn't give the omniscient among you cause to suddenly 'know' that I must be a racist?

    2. If I came across as self-righteous I truely apologize. I never thought I was any more or less tolerant of anyone else than I expected from them. My version of the golden rule. YOU are the one that seems intolerant of others that aren't in lock-step with your mantra, to the point of labeling them as ignorant.

    3. Listen sister, you don't know me from Adam. I could be White, Black, Bi-racial, Asian, Gay, straight, male, female, or &lt;gasp!&gt; have some hispanic heritage myself. You know nothing of my experiences or culture, anymore than I would claim to know of your's. All you know about me is that I am half-italian on my mother's side. Instantly, that makes me an evil, racist, hispanic hating white guy with a master plan? bullsh*t.

    If you have some of that ESP to spare that let's you instantly know from a couple of posts exactly who and what I am and what motivates me, I'd love to borrow it.

    You talk at me as if you know that I'm judgemental, yet you are judging me with absolutely no pretense of anything else, save for your own self-righteous indignation that some interloper could come in here and express an opinion contrary to your's. Instantly branding me a racist...and incidentally using a derrogatory name (cracker boy).

    You appear to be cut of the same cloth that you cover me with.

    Congratulations on doing your part to stifle free thought and expression.

    Ian
    AKA Cracker Boy
     
  46. racerx

    racerx ASA Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Doctorcita Foxy:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by racerx:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>Who said Spanish-speaking immigrants shouldn't learn English? They probably are trying, who said that every other immigrant culture has assimilated and learned English except for Hispanics? You mentioned the early part of the 20th century...well Hispanics are moving into the US everyday, do you expect them to learn English overnmight? Where did you get this information?That is simply not true. They should not be forced to learn English just to attain health care. Simple. Period.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First off, calm the h3ll down! I'm not some fascist, hispanic hating, cracker trying to hold anyone down.

    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I thought my post was pretty calm. I don't think it necessitated you telling me to "calm the hell down."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">On re-reading your post, I would agree. My apologies.
    I'll do what I do to my 6 year old when she's debating me: "OK, that's enough of the kiddy stuff, go get the boxing gloves out of the closet! We're gonna settle this once and for all!"
    :D
     
  47. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by daisygirl:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by CANES2006:
    <strong>Look, cracker boy. Your defensive response to Dr. Foxy was enough to convince me that you hate Hispanics. You were just too defensive. And, now with your pompous air of self-righteousness you are trying to give yourself pats on the back for being "tolerant" of Hispanics. Well, you know what? I don't buy it, and neither should most Hispanics reading your posts. Your true colors shined through your first post. So much so that Dr. Foxy picked up on it. Unfortunately, I have crossed paths with many people like yourself. Thank the Lord that not everyone has your ignorant thoughts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was nothing in racerx's post that indicated that he is intolerant. He simply stated his opinion and personal experiences; as did Foxy. Where in racer's post do you see him being facist, racist, etc.. Why the namecalling? Can't people develop an argument without calling each other names? :rolleyes: </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I agree (obviously). Apparently, if you aren't wearing blinders (you are considering all facets of medicine...even evil payment, damned salary) you aren't suited for medicine.

    supply and demand
     
  48. CANES2006

    CANES2006 Miami chica
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    Hey, I'm just repeating the term (cracker) that you used in your post. :rolleyes: You deny that you are one, and you really probably aren't a cracker. I don't really care. You are reacting in the same manner that I predicted (guess it's that ESP you were referring to). I wrote that post to mix it up. I wanted to test the relevance of racial tension in our society. And, as I could see, people are still really touchy on this issue. I'm sorry that you got so worked up. But, it is late, and my dark humor is on overdrive. Too bad more people didn't get involved. *sigh*
     
  49. THE instiGATOR

    THE instiGATOR Cow Tipper
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    CANES,

    I can almost assure you that if your racial remark weren't directed at a white person, all hell would have broke loose.
     
  50. CANES2006

    CANES2006 Miami chica
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    Now I know what will be my next target. :D I think it would have been grounds of permanently exiling me from SDN. <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
     
  51. racerx

    racerx ASA Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by CANES2006:
    <strong>Hey, I'm just repeating the term (cracker) that you used in your post. :rolleyes: You deny that you are one, and you really probably aren't a cracker. I don't really care. You are reacting in the same manner that I predicted (guess it's that ESP you were referring to). I wrote that post to mix it up. I wanted to test the relevance of racial tension in our society. And, as I could see, people are still really touchy on this issue. I'm sorry that you got so worked up. But, it is late, and my dark humor is on overdrive. Too bad more people didn't get involved. *sigh*</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you're going to mix it up, fine. Please don't do it with methods that could soil someone's reputation as a good person. A reputation as a good human is something that is difficult to build, yet very easy to tear down, you know?

    However, if you ever have CONCRETE evidence that I'm being a weinie, any time, any place, by all means...crush me. :p

    racerx
     

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