Poll: Your opinion of the military re: prisoner scandal

[bobbyseal]

I want to take a poll to see what people think about the military they belong to or are thinking about joining in light of the recent prisoner abuse scandal.

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[Mirror Form]

I want to take a poll to see what people think about the military they belong to or are thinking about joining in light of the recent prisoner abuse scandal.

It would be a mistake to generalize about the entire military based on this one incident. It's like saying everybody at University of X is a cheater b/c 2 students got caught cheating.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Yes its wrong. Yes, those who did it and are responsible for directly supervising those who did need to be punished. No, its not comparable to what Saddam did to his prisoners. Give me a break. They had to get naked and assume a few compromising positions. They are all alive and well enough to talk about it.

 

[Globus P]

Yes its wrong. Yes, those who did it and are responsible for directly supervising those who did need to be punished. No, its not comparable to what Saddam did to his prisoners. Give me a break. They had to get naked and assume a few compromising positions. They are all alive and well enough to talk about it.

I agree with Desperado, I don't the Iraqis would have been so "nice" to us. Case in point, look what Al-Queda (sp?) just did to the 26 yo American contractor. Enough said. Press on, hard-hitting and without mercy, with our war on terrorism.

 

[Cerbernator]

I think it was a few bad apples and some definite problems with command. Certainly not the whole military though.

 

[Heeed!]

We can't go into Iraq on the moral high ground of liberating a captive people and expect to stay there by offering the excuse, "They do worse things to our troops." I'm all for making the place a parking lot.....sunshine in a can for all my friends.... But what they did in the prison is inexcusable and shouldn't be tolerated by those of us in the service. Punish those who are guilty so they'll stop tarnishing OUR good name.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

We made a couple of people simulate sexual acts. As bad as that is, I have a hard time putting it in the same category as beheading civilians.

 

[Heeed!]

Abusing prisoners is still immoral. We can't say, "Well, we're not AS immoral. If we're not as immoral as them, we're justified." Just because our enemies behave badly doesn't mean we have to act the same way.

 

[edmadison]

We made a couple of people simulate sexual acts. As bad as that is, I have a hard time putting it in the same category as beheading civilians.

Forcing a prisoner to commit sexual acts is sexual assult -- akin to rape. I know that these are bad folks we're dealing with, but every single person participating in the conduct knew it was wrong. In fact, some other soldiers had refused to participate earlier and were backed up by their superiors. The officers who supervised those soldiers should be given substantial prison time. I also believe that the non-officer soldiers should be punished, but the officers should have stood up to this. The sad thing about this all (I stole this from NPR) is that the duty of the intellegence army of the military is to protect the soldiers/mission with information. By doing what they did, they made it even more dangerous. Now, if a faked picture of a iraqi prisoner being seriously tortured or executed comes out, it will be much harder to convince the iraqi civilians it isn't real.

Ed

 

[militarymd]

I'm all for making the place a parking lot.....sunshine in a can for all my friends.... But what they did in the prison is inexcusable and shouldn't be tolerated by those of us in the service. Punish those who are guilty so they'll stop tarnishing OUR good name.

So killing EVERYONE by creating a parking lot is better then making them pretend to have sex?

Lighten up. We really don't know what happened in what circumstance. We have a few pictures in the news. We have a bunch of politicians making a bunch of noise about some wrongs committed months ago that are already being prosecuted.

We have a few bad apples in the military. That doesn't surprise me. I've been saying that about a lot of the leadership on this board. The system worked this time. The bad apples were already going to to to jail before this political outcry broke out.

The only mistake was that the pictures were LEAKED....probably by a Bush hating democrat.

 

[fuegorama]

We made a couple of people simulate sexual acts. As bad as that is, I have a hard time putting it in the same category as beheading civilians.

With geniuses like you I reckon our foreign policy is right on time. How about a little cause / effect analysis. Would there have been a beheading w/out the torture pictures? Let's take a look back at Sept. 12 2001. Five separate incidents of hate driven homocide occurred in the US. In Mesa AZ. a siek(sp.) was killed outside his gas station. This guy wore a turban but wasn't even muslim. The killer did not have humvees and armed grunts outside his door. Nor were their depictions of his countrymen being forced to perform culturally/religiously insensitive acts. (e.g. enact fellatio on a crucifix-an equivalent to muslim men being judged by the size of their phalluses or women being forced to show their breasts)

We have entered a sovereign country, decreased the standard of living, introduced armed anarchy, and given no sign that any positive future awaits the people of Iraq. That's the "legal" stuff.

Now we have pictures/ film of POWs being subjected to bodily violations that have an intent to directly insult their culture. And you wonder why they are pissed?

Your viewpoint is insulting to the military, the people we purportedly are there to "protect", and this country. Shame!

 

[fuegorama]

I agree with Desperado, I don't the Iraqis would have been so "nice" to us. Case in point, look what Al-Queda (sp?) just did to the 26 yo American contractor. Enough said. Press on, hard-hitting and without mercy, with our war on terrorism.

Who's telling you this is Al-Quaieda? The same folks that said there were WMD?
You wanna know who the new terrorists are?
It's that five year old kid watching vehicles with US flags enter his town. It's the girl watching Al Jazeera and seeing pictures of her countrymen w/ electrodes attached to their bodies. It's the Palestinian teenager in a camp who learns that Bush has squandered yet another chance at peace by getting in the receiver position as Sharon does the dog.

Terrorism is not a group. It is not a political action. It is a form of warfare used by those who have no access to legal recourse. You can't "fight terror", only injustice.
We are a long way from enjoying the sleep of the just.

 

[flighterdoc]

It would be a mistake to generalize about the entire military based on this one incident. It's like saying everybody at University of X is a cheater b/c 2 students got caught cheating.

Actually, I think you can generalize about the entire military. A very small group of people did something reprehensible, or allowed it to happen (the commanders). And when I say a very small group, it seems to be well under 50 people, total, including the commanders. The US military is approximately 3-million people. Thats about 1.6 x 10-3 % of the military

A very junior US enlisted person knew it was wrong (so much for the "they weren't trained" defense), and reported it to the appropriate authorities. The next day, the authorities launched an investigation, and the day after that, announced all of the above to the entire world, via a press conference.

After the investigation proceeded for a couple of months, some people were found to perhaps (they're not guilty until after the trial) criminal, and the authorities announced that too. BTW, they also told those dingus senators then, the ones that "didn't know anything about it".

Once the general US military and US population found out about it, there is nearly universal outrage over the acts of that very small group.

So, I think you can draw some generalizations about the US military. Despite the best efforts of 99.998+% of the military, a few criminals, idiots and *****s got in. As soon as the problem was identified, the rest of the military took care of it.

Overall, things could be improved, but overall, not too shabby, I think. Especially when compared to other militaries, and especially to the treatment US prisoners received from the Iraqi military during Desert Storm (male and female rape, and where is Scott Spicher?), or the treatment that the terrorists/iraqi civilians provide to civilians in Iraq now.

 

[flighterdoc]

With geniuses like you I reckon our foreign policy is right on time. How about a little cause / effect analysis. Would there have been a beheading w/out the torture pictures? Let's take a look back at Sept. 12 2001. Five separate incidents of hate driven homocide occurred in the US. In Mesa AZ. a siek(sp.) was killed outside his gas station. This guy wore a turban but wasn't even muslim. The killer did not have humvees and armed grunts outside his door. Nor were their depictions of his countrymen being forced to perform culturally/religiously insensitive acts. (e.g. enact fellatio on a crucifix-an equivalent to muslim men being judged by the size of their phalluses or women being forced to show their breasts)

We have entered a sovereign country, decreased the standard of living, introduced armed anarchy, and given no sign that any positive future awaits the people of Iraq. That's the "legal" stuff.

Now we have pictures/ film of POWs being subjected to bodily violations that have an intent to directly insult their culture. And you wonder why they are pissed?

Your viewpoint is insulting to the military, the people we purportedly are there to "protect", and this country. Shame!

Obviously, yes there would have been a beheading - Daniel Pearl was beheaded by these islamofacist terroists. All before the news of Abu Garib became known.

Civilians were ambushed, killed, and their bodies desecrated - all before the news of Abu Garib became known.

SHAME on these murderers, and anyone who attempts to make moral equivalence claims between them and the civilized world.

 

[flighterdoc]

Who's telling you this is Al-Quaieda? The same folks that said there were WMD?
.

No, the people who DID it, fool.

 

[Masonator]

Who's telling you this is Al-Quaieda? The same folks that said there were WMD?
You wanna know who the new terrorists are?
It's that five year old kid watching vehicles with US flags enter his town. It's the girl watching Al Jazeera and seeing pictures of her countrymen w/ electrodes attached to their bodies. It's the Palestinian teenager in a camp who learns that Bush has squandered yet another chance at peace by getting in the receiver position as Sharon does the dog.

Terrorism is not a group. It is not a political action. It is a form of warfare used by those who have no access to legal recourse. You can't "fight terror", only injustice.
We are a long way from enjoying the sleep of the just.

Give me a ****ing break with this trite bull****. Sharon doing Bush? Please! Do you think Osama bin Laden has no ability for legal recourse? How about muslim extremists in Pakistan, Egypt, and Turkey? Last time I checked they had legal recourse. No one is arguing whether Iraq is a rich environment for future terrorists, that is what the Army is trying to fix. Do you have a better solution? Maybe you could go there and give an impassioned speech. That should straighten things out.

Some terrorists do what they do because they are lunatics. They bombed Spain because the Spanish drove out the Moors 500 ****ing years ago! Does that seem like the act of a rational human being denied legal recourse? Their culture promotes barbarism, intolerance, and fanatic disregard for life. Accept that and quit blaming America for it.

 

[fuegorama]

No, the people who DID it, fool.

Musta missed that. Where is this claim being publicized. As of this morning, "CNN sources "believed" there "might" be a connection.

PLEEZ!! This is the same misinformation/propaganda ploy that now has us prosecuting an illegal war.

"Zwarhari (sp?) is worse than Bin Ladin". CNN.com yesterday. Do you really believe this ****e? When one search fails can we just make up another bad guy? Obviously our leaders believe so. Thanks to simple fish like you the hook, line and sinker are all under the water.

 

[fuegorama]

Give me a ****ing break with this trite bull****. Sharon doing Bush? Please! Do you think Osama bin Laden has no ability for legal recourse? How about muslim extremists in Pakistan, Egypt, and Turkey? Last time I checked they had legal recourse. No one is arguing whether Iraq is a rich environment for future terrorists, that is what the Army is trying to fix. Do you have a better solution? Maybe you could go there and give an impassioned speech. That should straighten things out.

Some terrorists do what they do because they are lunatics. They bombed Spain because the Spanish drove out the Moors 500 ****ing years ago! Does that seem like the act of a rational human being denied legal recourse? Their culture promotes barbarism, intolerance, and fanatic disregard for life. Accept that and quit blaming America for it.

1. Sharon is "doing Bush". Our own radical fundamentalist group, the Christian Right, has a grand plan of bringing back a Christ by rebuilding a Jewish constructed temple where the Dome of the Rock now stands. Any Palestinian state would hold back the coming of that "trump sound". Bush will do anything in an effort to please the crazed troops of Jesus.
2. Bin Laden is the least of this country's worries. He is a nutcase organizer that has focused the hatred of the Islamic world. And no, most of these people do not have any recourse.
3. Pakistan/Afganistan and muslim extremism is a direct result of our training, exploiting and then abandonment of a powerful, independent people. Reagan left a wasteland of warfare in a desperate country when he bolted out on the mujahadin. Check your history. The tragedy of 9-11 and the subsequent cluster in which we are now embroiled is textbook backlash. Egypt and Turkey have less dramatic examples of seeing the American backside, but our 5 billion/yr. support of a religious nation-state in their backyard might skew their view.
4. Spain? I thought the real reason was Spain's support of our illegal war.
5. The ARMY FIXING IRAQ!!........long pause while I wet my britches and roll on the floor with laughter...........The army fixes nothing. A standing army is the quiet deterrant that can ensure security. An army, especially a US ARMY, is a force that you WILL lose against when it is mobilized. It is then an instrument of destruction. It is then a machine of waste. An army however is never a solution.
6. Impassioned speeches were abandoned last year when we turned our backs to the world and started playing empire.
7. Their culture? Listen bigot-boy we are the barbarians here. We are the destroyers. DO NOT pull the "we saved their people" ****e. We have destroyed what little infrastructure remained after Desert Storm. We have given them NOTHING.

The premise of this war was a lie. Our attitude toward these cultures guarantees plenty of horror for decades to come. I don't ask you to blame this country, but please get your head out yo @$$ and recognize what has happened.

If rape, murder and torture are cool with you, then just admit it. DON'T paint America's tragedy and symbolism as some justification for your hatred.

 

[Globus P]

fuegorama, please leave.

 

[fuegorama]

fuegorama, please leave.

I appreciate the courtesy of the "please" qualifier. Color me gone.
In passing let me say this was to be an opinion page per the OP. Y'all have been kind enough to listen to mine. Thanks.

Feel free to PM for further.

 

[Masonator]

1. Sharon is "doing Bush". Our own radical fundamentalist group, the Christian Right, has a grand plan of bringing back a Christ by rebuilding a Jewish constructed temple where the Dome of the Rock now stands. Any Palestinian state would hold back the coming of that "trump sound". Bush will throat Sharon's dog and get greased for Pat Robertson in an effort to please the crazed troops of Jesus.
2. Bin Laden is the least of this country's worries. He is a nutcase organizer that has focused the hatred of the Islamic world. And no, most of these people do not have any recourse.
3. Pakistan/Afganistan and muslim extremism is a direct result of our training, exploiting and then abandonment of a powerful, independent people. Reagan left a wasteland of warfare in a desperate country when he bolted out on the mujahadin. Check your history. The tragedy of 9-11 and the subsequent cluster in which we are now embroiled is textbook backlash. Egypt and Turkey have less dramatic examples of seeing the American backside, but our 5 billion/yr. support of a religious nation-state in their backyard might skew their view.
4. Spain? I thought the real reason was Spain's support of our illegal war.
5. The ARMY FIXING IRAQ!!........long pause while I wet my britches and roll on the floor with laughter...........The army fixes nothing. A standing army is the quiet deterrant that can ensure security. An army, especially a US ARMY, is a force that you WILL lose against when it is mobilized. It is then an instrument of destruction. It is then a machine of waste. An army however is never a solution.
6. Impassioned speeches were abandoned last year when we turned our backs to the world and started playing empire.
7. Their culture? Listen bigot-boy we are the barbarians here. We are the destroyers. DO NOT pull the "we saved their people" ****e. We have destroyed what little infrastructure remained after Desert Storm. We have given them NOTHING.

The premise of this war was a lie. Our attitude toward these cultures guarantees plenty of horror for decades to come. I don't ask you to blame this country, but please get your head out yo @$$ and recognize what has happened.

If rape, murder and torture are cool with you, then just admit it. DON'T paint America's tragedy and symbolism as some justification for your hatred.

You're a ****ing quack. Nice theory about Christ's second ressurection or whatever. You still haven't proposed a solution. All you have to say is that everything is America's fault. I like how you think Bin Ladin is no big deal. He helped kill 3000 people you ****ing idiot! I guess we should blow him off huh? He is just a poor Saudi billionare with no legal recourse who has been forced by the US to kill innocent people. Poor guy, now you have me feeling so ****ing sorry for terrorists. You don't know **** about the infratstructure in Iraq, your not there. Quit pretending you do. Your spewing anti israeli propaganda and you are calling me a bigot! That is so ****ing funny! If you really want to get historical dingus, the jews were there first and have the same right to be there as Palestinians. When I was in Israel I met many Palestinians who had no gripes with the Israeli government. They had good jobs, nice houses. The only ones getting hosed are the marginalized ones who have connections with Hamas, or the ones who are refugeses that were booted out of Syria and Jordan. There is a lesson in Arab solidarity for you. "We support you politically but get the hell out of our country and go back to Israel."

I think you've been brainwashed by Al Jazeera dip ****.

 

[Masonator]

I appreciate the courtesy of the "please" qualifier. Color me gone.
In passing let me say this was to be an opinion page per the OP. Y'all have been kind enough to listen to mine. Thanks.

Feel free to PM for further.

Yes I will PM you! I always wanted an ignorant dingus as a pen pall! Thanks for the invitation! Maybe next week we can talk about the US being responsible for the Arab massacres of innocents in the Sudan! You can defend your opinion with more Bush blowjob references!

 

[fuegorama]

You can defend your opinion with more Bush blowjob references![/QUOTE]


Actually there is no defense. I apologize. The original has been edited.
Last reply.

 

[metabolite]

I'm not too surprised to see pre-meds/physicians holding strong to their opinions... nevertheless, what do you all think the resolution should be? Keep sending these kids around 20y of age for a war that began without justifiable reason? Or should US pull the troops out of Iraq, when it is still highly unstable and dangerous?

Whether or not this war was justifiable will be told in future... until then, we have a situation today that seems to be costing more and more blood everyday. US did start the war by an invasion, although entire world opposed it, and to that extend US must take the responsibility; what seems to be difficult to comprehend at this point is how best that responsibility can be carried on, without becoming indistinguishable with those whom we fight in the name of justice and honor.

 

[Globus P]

Monday, May 17, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq ? A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent (search) recently exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday.

Bush administration officials told Fox News that mustard gas (search) was also recently discovered.

Two people were treated for "minor exposure" after the sarin incident but no serious injuries were reported. Soldiers transporting the shell for inspection suffered symptoms consistent with low-level chemical exposure, which is what led to the discovery, a U.S. official told Fox News.

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."

The round detonated before it would be rendered inoperable, Kimmitt said, which caused a "very small dispersal of agent."

A senior Bush administration official told Fox News that the sarin gas shell is the second chemical weapon discovered recently.

Two weeks ago, U.S. military units discovered mustard gas that was used as part of an IED. Tests conducted by the Iraqi Survey Group (search) and others concluded the mustard gas was "stored improperly," which made the gas "ineffective."

They believe the mustard gas shell may have been one of 550 for which former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein failed to account when he made his weapons declaration shortly before Operation Iraqi Freedom began last year.

Investigators are trying to determine how insurgents obtained these weapons ? whether they were looted or supplied.

It also appears some top Pentagon officials were taken by surprise by Kimmitt's announcement of the sarin discovery; they thought the matter was classified, administration officials told Fox News.

Kimmitt said the shell belonged to a class of ordnance that Saddam Hussein's government said was destroyed before the 1991 Gulf war (search). Experts believe both the sarin and mustard gas weapons date back to the Persian Gulf War.

"It was a weapon that we believe was stocked from the ex-regime time and it had been thought to be an ordinary artillery shell set up to explode like an ordinary IED and basically from the detection of that and when it exploded, it indicated that it actually had some sarin in it," Kimmitt said.

The incident occurred "a couple of days ago," he added. The discovery reportedly occurred near Baghdad International Airport.

It was the first announcement of the discovery of such a weapon on which Washington made its case for war. Washington officials say the significance of the find is that some chemical shells do still exist in Iraq, and it's thought that fighters there may be upping their attacks on U.S. forces by using such weapons.

The Iraqi Survey Group is a U.S. organization whose task was to search for weapons of mass destruction after the ouster of Saddam Hussein in last year's invasion.

The round was an old "binary-type" shell in which two chemicals held in separate sections are mixed after firing to produce sarin, Kimmitt said.

He said he believed that insurgents who rigged the artillery shell as a bomb didn't know it contained the nerve agent, and that the dispersal of the nerve agent from such a rigged device was very limited.

"The former regime had declared all such rounds destroyed before the 1991 Gulf War," Kimmitt said. "Two explosive ordinance team members were treated for minor exposure to nerve agent as a result of the partial detonation of the round."

The shell had no markings. It appears the binary sarin agents didn't mix, which is why there weren't serious injuries from the initial explosion, a U.S. official told Fox News.

Not everyone found the deadly artillery surprising.

"Everybody knew Saddam had chemical weapons, the question was, where did they go. Unfortunately, everybody jumped on the offramp and said 'well, because we didn't find them, he didn't have them,'" said Fox News military analyst Lt. Gen. Tom McInerney.

"I doubt if it's the tip of the iceberg but it does confirm what we've known ... that he [Saddam Hussein] had weapons of mad destruction that he used on his own people," Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, told Fox News. "This does show that the fear we had is very real. Now whether there is much more of this we don't know, Iraq is the size of the state of California."

But there were more than weapons to the need to depose of Saddam, he added. "We considered Saddam Hussein a threat not just because of weapons of mass destruction," Grassley said.

Iraqi Scientist: You Will Find More

Gazi George, a former Iraqi nuclear scientist under Saddam's regime, told Fox News that he believes many similar weapons stockpiled by the former regime were either buried underground or transported to Syria. He noted that the airport where the device was detonated is on the way to Baghdad from the Syrian border.

George said the finding likely will just be the first in a series of discoveries of such weapons.

"Saddam is the type who will not store those materials in a military warehouse. He's gonna store them either underground, or, as I said, lots of them have gone west to Syria and are being brought back with the insurgencies," George told Fox News. "It is difficult to look in areas that are not obvious to the military's eyes.

"I'm sure they're going to find more once time passes," he continued, saying one year is not enough for the survey group or the military to find the weapons.

Saddam, when he was in power, had declared that he did in fact possess mustard-gas filled artilleries but none that included sarin.

"I think what we found today, the sarin in some ways, although it's a nerve gas, it's a lucky situation sarin detonated in the way it did ... it's not as dangerous as the cocktails Saddam used to make, mixing blister" agents with other gases and substances," George said.

Officials: Discovery Is 'Significant'

U.S. officials told Fox News that the shell discovery is a "significant" event.

Artillery shells of the 155-mm size are about as big as it gets when it comes to the ordnance lobbed by infantry-based artillery units. The 155 howitzer can launch high capacity shells over several miles; current models used by the United States can fire shells as far as 14 miles. One official told Fox News that a conventional 155-mm shell could hold as much as "two to five" liters of sarin, which is capable of killing thousands of people under the right conditions in highly populated areas.

The Iraqis were very capable of producing such shells in the 1980s but it's not as clear that they continued after the first Gulf War, so officials are reluctant to guess the age of the shell or the capacity of the Iraqis prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom to produce such shells.

In 1995, Japan's Aum Shinrikyo (search) cult unleashed sarin gas in Tokyo's subways, killing 12 people and sickening thousands. In February of this year, Japanese courts convicted the cult's former leader, Shoko Asahara, and sentence him to be executed.

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonizing choking death. There are no known instances of the Nazis actually using the gas.

Nerve gases work by inhibiting key enzymes in the nervous system, blocking their transmission. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.

Antidotes to nerve gases similar to sarin are so effective that top poison gas researchers predict they eventually will cease to be a war threat.

Fox News' Wendell Goler, Steve Harrigan, Ian McCaleb, Liza Porteus, James Rosen and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

 

[Heeed!]

Interesting. Very interesting.

 

[5639953]

Just a little note on the side,

"If you really want to get historical dingus, the jews were there first and have the same right to be there as Palestinians." this statement was made in the argument.

Actually, this is changing history. "Jews" means people who belong to a religion. That religion has a start point, i.e a certain prophet was sent to certain people.

Palestinians mean people of Palestine, which means that land who they are fighting over. Palestinian could mean any religion, it could mean christian, muslim, jewish, or any other religion. Just like an american or any other nationality.

Even in the old test, it says that the jews were supposed to enter the land of palestine but they didn't. then they did later.... Anyways, I don't think it would be a good idea to bring up history if you are making a pro-israel argument.

By the way, a poll was made in the EU, which is a huge part of the civilized world, who are mostly christians. One question was "What state in the world do you think is a threat to the world's peace?" More than 65% answered Israel. That should say something on its own.

 

[Masonator]

Just a little note on the side,

"If you really want to get historical dingus, the jews were there first and have the same right to be there as Palestinians." this statement was made in the argument.

Actually, this is changing history. "Jews" means people who belong to a religion. That religion has a start point, i.e a certain prophet was sent to certain people.

Palestinians mean people of Palestine, which means that land who they are fighting over. Palestinian could mean any religion, it could mean christian, muslim, jewish, or any other religion. Just like an american or any other nationality.

Even in the old test, it says that the jews were supposed to enter the land of palestine but they didn't. then they did later.... Anyways, I don't think it would be a good idea to bring up history if you are making a pro-israel argument.

By the way, a poll was made in the EU, which is a huge part of the civilized world, who are mostly christians. One question was "What state in the world do you think is a threat to the world's peace?" More than 65% answered Israel. That should say something on its own.

Israel is here to stay my friend. You can conduct all of the polls you want, you can use revisionist history on the old testament, it doesn't matter. The people of Israel aren't going to subject themselves to another Exodus in order to placate Europe or the Arab world. Did you know that Israel has nukes? If all their neighbors attempted a war of genocide and eradication on them, it would be a very messy war. The sooner these people accept each other, the better off they will be.

By the way, since you are such the jewish scholar, are you familliar with the Jewish holiday passover? They've been celebrating it for about 3000 years. At the end of pass over they say, this year here, next year in Israel. Zionism has existed in this religion for this long.

By the way polling Europe? Do you know how much anti-semitism exists in France and Germany alone? Don't be so fricken naive.

 

[5639953]

Why do you get so angry and then you start offending people by calling them names. Look at my post, did I call you any bad word!!!

You wrote, "By the way, since you are such the jewish scholar, are you familliar with the Jewish holiday passover? They've been celebrating it for about 3000 years. At the end of pass over they say, this year here, next year in Israel. Zionism has existed in this religion for this long."


Anyways, history doesn't start 3000 years ago, especially the rich history of that region. So, if you are pro-israel, let's not talk about history because I know that you won't be happy about it

And again, I am not saying I am against israel or anything. I didn't say I was pro-israel either. So, don't put your Nuclear weapons in my face. All I was trying to state was simple facts that will never be changed, as they represent the truth.

Since you want to make it sound more like religion than politics, how come you ask the palestinians to comply with your religion, and leave their homes to give them up to people who are coming from all over the world; when you don't want to even listen to what any other religion say i.e. christians!!!

One more point, if the new test. tells you that the house that you own, wherever you are, belongs to me; would you leave it for me and you are not a christian? The answer is NO. Why? Because you are not a christian and you don't have to follow what the bible says, do you!!! So, telling people who don't follow your religion to comply with it is little extreme. You know what I mean?

I insist that it is not about religion. It is alot more about politics or zionism for israel, and existance for the palestinians. And again, I am not on any side but that's what I see from being outside the conflict and from reading books from overseas about it, from both sides. Zionism tries politics and power, and platestinian tries to exist.

About 110 years ago, didn't the zionists have a choice between three different countries to settle in? One was in Africa and two were in Asia, and they chose palestine out of all the three. They believed that it will be easy to convince the jews around the world to become zionists. That won't happen for a true jewish. alot of Jews believe that they shouldn't go to israel at this time. Am I wrong? Then the zionists try to convince people from all over the world that these people are "fake jews". They can because they have the resources, but for educated people in history, FACTS are clear like crystal.

Now, if things like "power" make nations survive, then no nation would have gone down through out history. And little birds would not live because eagles are alive... It is all balanced out. Whoever has the good cause with the truth will prevail at the end. You may trust me on that.

Have a good day and thanks for voicing your opinion.

 

[Mirror Form]

Whoever has the good cause with the truth will prevail at the end. You may trust me on that.

You said a lot of far-fetched stuff in your last couple posts, but this last statement has to take the cake. What history books have you been reading? Or better yet, what brainwashing have you been through to make you actually believe that?

 

[Globus P]

When I see 5639953, I simply skip the post. I don't even bother to read it.

 

[Masonator]

Why do you get so angry and then you start offending people by calling them names. Look at my post, did I call you any bad word!!!

You wrote, "By the way, since you are such the jewish scholar, are you familliar with the Jewish holiday passover? They've been celebrating it for about 3000 years. At the end of pass over they say, this year here, next year in Israel. Zionism has existed in this religion for this long."


Anyways, history doesn't start 3000 years ago, especially the rich history of that region. So, if you are pro-israel, let's not talk about history because I know that you won't be happy about it

And again, I am not saying I am against israel or anything. I didn't say I was pro-israel either. So, don't put your Nuclear weapons in my face. All I was trying to state was simple facts that will never be changed, as they represent the truth.

Since you want to make it sound more like religion than politics, how come you ask the palestinians to comply with your religion, and leave their homes to give them up to people who are coming from all over the world; when you don't want to even listen to what any other religion say i.e. christians!!!

One more point, if the new test. tells you that the house that you own, wherever you are, belongs to me; would you leave it for me and you are not a christian? The answer is NO. Why? Because you are not a christian and you don't have to follow what the bible says, do you!!! So, telling people who don't follow your religion to comply with it is little extreme. You know what I mean?

I insist that it is not about religion. It is alot more about politics or zionism for israel, and existance for the palestinians. And again, I am not on any side but that's what I see from being outside the conflict and from reading books from overseas about it, from both sides. Zionism tries politics and power, and platestinian tries to exist.

About 110 years ago, didn't the zionists have a choice between three different countries to settle in? One was in Africa and two were in Asia, and they chose palestine out of all the three. They believed that it will be easy to convince the jews around the world to become zionists. That won't happen for a true jewish. alot of Jews believe that they shouldn't go to israel at this time. Am I wrong? Then the zionists try to convince people from all over the world that these people are "fake jews". They can because they have the resources, but for educated people in history, FACTS are clear like crystal.

Now, if things like "power" make nations survive, then no nation would have gone down through out history. And little birds would not live because eagles are alive... It is all balanced out. Whoever has the good cause with the truth will prevail at the end. You may trust me on that.

Have a good day and thanks for voicing your opinion.

I think I see your point, but you may want to check your facts. I get defensive when people attack Israel. I disagree with the ultraconservative Israeli party, but believe me, they are a minority that is in power for a limited term. I don't think there were three choices for Zionism. I think you are mixing up Jewish Zionism with rastafarian zionism. These are two seperate movements, the only thing they have in common is a persecuted race returning to its homeland. Any way the political situation in Palestine is complicated. At one point the Jews were letting them have there state, hands off. Then they started firing rockets at Jewish settlements and bombing buses, so peace broke down. Do they need to live in peace? Yes! How to make this happen is the million dollar question. (Hint: Iradicating Israel is not an answer.)

 

[metabolite]

If you have a strong opinion (which we all do) about a conflict (out of many that are/will be going on) and you face an injured person who may represent the opposite of what you believe and/or agree, would you be able to set your personal feelings aside, without a trace? Even more difficult, how would you work side-by-side with someone who may hold the extreme opposite of what you believe in, in a short-handed and hectic medical emergency that may take place while our work in the military?

I have my own opinions, and as I wish to be respected of my opinions I would respect other opinions too. Not so much because I'm such a reasonable person but because by trying to see others' point of view I think it would prepare me to work with others even when I don't feel like it.

 

[5639953]

I have no problems when it comes to working with others who I don't agree with... Actually, I took care of this woman few months ago. She was nice. Her mom was there and she is jewish. Anyways, in the patient's room, there was a bible and a cross. She found that these things are offensive and she asked me to take them out of the room. I said this is your room and if you find them offensive, then I will be more than happy to take them out of here... And I did with a smile...

I was not offended... They had the right to believe whatever they wanted. The health profession is so respected because we don't practice based on our political views. We could be treating people that we don't agree with all the times. I hope that everyone on here has the same spirit.

I know problems start when you try to force your beliefs on others, and I think that is the major problem in the holy land. So, let's hope for peace.

 

[Heeed!]

The sooner everyone agrees that I'm right about everything the better off we'll be!

 

[metabolite]

The sooner everyone agrees that I'm right about everything the better off we'll be!

LOL