Poor job market

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This would be less of an issue if it wasn't so blatantly obvious that pathology is being staffed with multiple individuals who have no business being in medicine at all - a bunch got their degrees from offshore degree mills for chrissakes! Clearly their recruitment is serving some sort of ulterior profit-driven motive, probably due to megalab influence on the CAP or whatever. The fact that crappy academic and most community programs recruit low-functioning FMG/Carib residents as cheap alternatives to PAs is just a convenient run-off from the true purpose of the oversupply.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

Clearly it's the chem-trails, fluoridation of the water supply, and the Illuminati that are influencing CAP, BU Path, and the megalabs to paint a rosy picture while simultaneously undermining the future of pathology and the pathology job market by blunting the AMGs will to go on and allowing those icky FMG/Carib grads to infiltrate into our midst. Splitting + projection much?

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At the end of the day, even without glut you and I and everyone would be getting the short end of the stick right now. ........

As you say, GLUT is REAL. Therefore, we need to close down Programs or cut down slots, ASAP. Other arguments are selfish smokescreens.

There is a huge difference between being at the table eating LESS and having NO seat AT ALL. Can you understand that?
 
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As you say, GLUT is REAL. Therefore, we need to close down Programs or cut down slots, ASAP. Other arguments are selfish smokescreens.

There is a huge difference between being at the table eating LESS and having NO seat AT ALL. Can you understand that?

I think the glut is relative. In theory, increasing volume should seriously lessen the perceived "glut", were that really the only problem. But in light of the economic constraints we face, a glut is in essence created as those in practice are forced to do all the extra work without hiring new staff. I personally still don't know anyone who's unemployed in our field. But I can tell you the rules are changing by the minute and EVERYONE, including academia, is fearful of what's coming next and hoarding both cases and $$. Hiring freezes are in effect in several institutions that I know, including my own. Staff are asked to work more, and paycuts are on everyone's mind.
 
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But in light of the economic constraints we face, a glut is in essence created as those in practice are forced to do all the extra work without hiring new staff.

I disagree with you. Glut has existed for decades, well before the recent reimbursement cuts. The real cause was oversupply.

I surmise that you are in a Top notch academic center and speak from your vantage point.

Did it ever occur to you that we may be telling you the truth? It is perplexing how you generalize your privileged experiences to rest of us. You need to open your eyes, listen and believe: we have no negotiation power and other specialties are taking our business away from us because they can hire one of us for a song.

Do you understand that, especially for ancillary specialties, shortage is the best defense against whipping waves of market forces?

My plea to you, and the likes of you, as BU Boston, is to listen more, assume your LONG overdue role of bigger brother in the field, advocate for higher training standards, eradicate the sub-standard programs and decrease supply drastically.
 
Pathologists are going to be dealing with a lot more studies questioning the benefit of all this early detection of "cancer". It's going to reduce specimens dramatically once new guidelines are forced to be followed. We have all known for decades about the harm we are doing to patients. Now the public is finding out and finally asking questions.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/health/mammogram-screening-benefits/index.html?hpt=hp_bn13

And of course the war on smoking continues. Think about how much revenue from your group comes from the effects of smoking. It is quite significant. That revenue is going to be going down I'm afraid. Pathologists need to be advocates for legalizing marijuana. We have to get more people smoking.
 
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Again, I'm not saying that the "glut" isn't having a negative effect on the marketplace (far from it), but that it is definitely not the only factor at work and can't be blamed for everything. With ACA, volume should increase across the board. Wouldn't this make the "glut" disappear? But does ANYONE think ACA is a good thing and will fix our problems here? We all know the increase volume will come at lower compensation, meaning people will just work harder for the same pay and the increased volume will not erase the glut. Isn't the lack of reimbursement, then, an equal, if not bigger problem since it forces our colleagues in other departments to undercut us?

Hey, I would love to increase reimbursement for my work! At this point, I would be glad to not face the now-inevitable yearly cuts. Exactly how do you propose we achieve this?

It is interesting to me that you grasp that falling reimbursement will trigger compensatory workload increases, yet you see no relationship between our number and our political clout or reimbursement. You realize that one of the most commonly proposed solutions for reducing physician costs is to increase their supply, don't you? Reformers who view physicians as rent-seeking parasites would dearly love to open the floodgates. Read a little Matthew Yglesias.

You are right about the numerous pressures facing pathologists. I really don't think anyone here is claiming otherwise. But pathologist supply is the one--the biggest one--under our control. That is why you hear people bitching about it so much in this forum. Talking about lack of reimbursement without addressing oversupply is like complaining about the smell while ignoring the dog$hit.
 
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I hear my friends in academia comment about this impending retirement boom given the high average age of practicing pathologists (somewhere in the 50's range) while acknowledging that pathologists are delaying their retirement. Seems paradoxical. I still don't buy this as a compelling justification to maintain or increase funding for more trainees. We can sit and speculate as to ulterior motives that push to increase the supply of trainee labor. But at the end of the day, it's not under my control. The older generation of pathologists in academia, who seem to push for this, have less to lose than the younger, perhaps more cynical pathologists who depend on the infrastructural integrity of this field to make a living, care for their families, and be in the position of retiring comfortably someday.






Hey, I would love to increase reimbursement for my work! At this point, I would be glad to not face the now-inevitable yearly cuts. Exactly how do you propose we achieve this?

It is interesting to me that you grasp that falling reimbursement will trigger compensatory workload increases, yet you see no relationship between our number and our political clout or reimbursement. You realize that one of the most commonly proposed solutions for reducing physician costs is to increase their supply, don't you? Reformers who view physicians as rent-seeking parasites would dearly love to open the floodgates. Read a little Matthew Yglesias.

You are right about the numerous pressures facing pathologists. I really don't think anyone here is claiming otherwise. But pathologist supply is the one--the biggest one--under our control. That is why you hear people bitching about it so much in this forum. Talking about lack of reimbursement without addressing oversupply is like complaining about the smell while ignoring the dog$hit.
 
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Too many biopsies are performed but to what extent does this lead to value and improved outcomes? That is a rhetorical question, btw. People are catching on as you alluded.



Pathologists are going to be dealing with a lot more studies questioning the benefit of all this early detection of "cancer". It's going to reduce specimens dramatically once new guidelines are forced to be followed. We have all known for decades about the harm we are doing to patients. Now the public is finding out and finally asking questions.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/12/health/mammogram-screening-benefits/index.html?hpt=hp_bn13

And of course the war on smoking continues. Think about how much revenue from your group comes from the effects of smoking. It is quite significant. That revenue is going to be going down I'm afraid. Pathologists need to be advocates for legalizing marijuana. We have to get more people smoking.
 
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I think the glut is relative. In theory, increasing volume should seriously lessen the perceived "glut", were that really the only problem. But in light of the economic constraints we face, a glut is in essence created as those in practice are forced to do all the extra work without hiring new staff. I personally still don't know anyone who's unemployed in our field. But I can tell you the rules are changing by the minute and EVERYONE, including academia, is fearful of what's coming next and hoarding both cases and $$. Hiring freezes are in effect in several institutions that I know, including my own. Staff are asked to work more, and paycuts are on everyone's mind.
I know of two. They were incompetent though. And one had the delightful personality of a juicy shart to top it off.

Yes, the current state of medicine is on the bubble similar to the housing market bubble during the previous decade. When the bubble bursts (and it will), what happens to pathology? That's the $3.75 question.
 
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I know of couple of programs that have been struggling to get good quality staff (academic surgpath). At least I know they gave out a few offers and none of them were taken. Just saying...
 
I know of couple of programs that have been struggling to get good quality staff (academic surgpath). At least I know they gave out a few offers and none of them were taken. Just saying...

You mean "impending shortage" is already here?!!
 
At least I know they gave out a few offers and none of them were taken. Just saying...

Hmm I'd venture to say that maybe the offers weren't good? Some departments still think they can offer 80k for a junior staff, on call, 2 fellowships and full time. Do you know how much money was in the "offer"?
 
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The whining on here is rather pathetic at times. Any of you want struggling to find work want a guaranteed job for the next 20 years do 3 things: 1) complete a forensic pathology fellowship and pass the board exam 2) speak and write English well 3) not be a d-bag. Do those things, and you'll find work somewhere in the US or Canada for the next 20 years.

There is no right to work. Markets drive these things. Let a generation go by without competent people doing pathology (as almost happened up here) and see how the tables turn. Path residents (most of whom are Canadian) up here laugh at the notion of going to the US for crappier pay, far worse working conditions, and having to do multiple fellowships to have a chance to do that.

Your avatar is perfect for your post, due to your level of elitism and condescension. It's attendings such as yourself and BUPathology that have turned a great academic and intellectual specialty such as Pathology into a commodity to be traded.
 
I hear my friends in academia comment about this impending retirement boom given the high average age of practicing pathologists (somewhere in the 50's range) while acknowledging that pathologists are delaying their retirement. Seems paradoxical. I still don't buy this as a compelling justification to maintain or increase funding for more trainees. We can sit and speculate as to ulterior motives that push to increase the supply of trainee labor. But at the end of the day, it's not under my control. The older generation of pathologists in academia, who seem to push for this, have less to lose than the younger, perhaps more cynical pathologists who depend on the infrastructural integrity of this field to make a living, care for their families, and be in the position of retiring comfortably someday.

People talk past each other about this all the time though - a lot of people talking about "impending retirement boom" or whatever term to use are speaking in terms of long-term outlook - like 15-20 years. If you project out numbers using current data and absolute numbers, it is very hard to argue that there will be a lot fewer pathologists around then. Where people get agitated on this forum is assuming that that "impending" means "in the next 1-2 years" or some time frame like that.

To me, the absolute numbers and such are somewhat irrelevant. If a pathologist workload and work day could be easily predicted 20 years from now, then that would make more sense. But absolute numbers and projections of such do remain relevant, because it provides something of a baseline. But relying on that to have major significance is not appropriate. Pathologists are likely to continue the trend of doing more work in a day, increasing the actual workload of what constitutes an FTE. If pathologist workload now was exactly the same as it was 20 years ago, there would no doubt be a shortage of pathologists. But that isn't even close to true. Most of that has probably been due to specialization.

At some point it will have to reach a critical point - when can pathologists continue to do more work and when can't they? I think for academics that cliff is farther off than it is in private practice. We have people in our group who are starting to question whether they can continue to increase their workload. There are more demands than there used to be, more things to know, more pressures, etc. So while someone else commented above that this can continue to happen, in a lot of private groups I am not sure how much more can be squeezed out. Continuing specialization will help I suppose, but you can only specialize so much without having to hire someone else.

The main problem is that the problem of actual numbers and pathologist supply is a lot easier to think about when you use current workloads and projections.

Everyone who says they "know" what is going to happen is delusional. "specimens are going to go down." Are you sure? Some people are equally sure that they are going to go up. All we can say for sure is that things will be different - whether volume goes up or down, whether volume goes down and complicated specimens go up, etc.
 
The whining on here is rather pathetic at times. Any of you want struggling to find work want a guaranteed job for the next 20 years do 3 things: 1) complete a forensic pathology fellowship and pass the board exam 2) speak and write English well 3) not be a d-bag. Do those things, and you'll find work somewhere in the US or Canada for the next 20 years.

You had posted once that you had gone into Path for FP. Most of us do not like FP and, ABSOLUTELY, had NO expectation of leaving our state or country for a job. That is not the NORM for vast majority of other fields in Medicine. Otherwise, there are many jobs in Africa that we could recommend.

Your point that in Capitalism we are not guaranteed a job would be a fair argument, had our plight been a natural result of a free market. It is not, it is an entirely our incompetent leadership-made. Would you say that no one should expose the Law schools? Capitalism you describe is a "crony Capitalism" so prevalent in the third world countries.

Path residents (most of whom are Canadian) up here laugh at the notion of going to the US for crappier pay, far worse working conditions, and having to do multiple fellowships to have a chance to do that.

So if our plight is so well known even in Canada, how come our great leaders are not aware of it? Rather, they are urging "a drastic, immediate increase in residency spots and lamenting and apologizing (my jaw drops!) for not having minted more residents, thereby jeopardizing our field !!" Does not this fact alone bespeak of inner moral and ethical bearings of our leaders? I had first heard about the upcoming shortage from CAP in late 1980, and I have not seen it yet.

Maybe you can do us a favor by having your Canadian colleagues to write to leader that you guys are laughing about us.

The gist of the issue is whether our non-elected leaders, to whom "minting press" was granted, can abuse their position to a degree that borders a "stealing".

I came to the conclusion that those in this Forum who feel the job shortage is relative are those from Top programs, junior faculty in a tenure track, a Pollyannaish Chairman and those whose career aspiration is just to live day by day. They are either the direct beneficiary of the surplus or unable to utter a word against the situation because their future career is in line.

Those clamoring are those who are newbies unable to find jobs and older experienced (in path and in business) pathologists in private practice who have Institutional memory of the past, see through the smoke being blown by the Academia, see what is coming and have a social conscience for the newbies.

Now I am convinced the Academics from Top Institutions are blinded for selfish reasons and will do nothing to elevate the Field. Therefore, my advice to those who CAN, AVOID PATHOLOGY, or if you are attracted to Pathology (as moths are to flame) go to Top programs only ! Those who have no options (I speak in code) do your best and be prepared for a rough career, but always watch for a way out.

In my opinion, biopsy volume will gradually decrease due to cost containment and new diagnostic technologies. The pathology as practiced in Academia is way too inefficient, I would say at most 50% efficiency of private practices. Even many private practice could get far more efficient. Old timers used to say: "Pathologist are underpaid for what we could do, and way overpaid for what we do". Now with the cuts they will do more. Most private practices could tighten their belts and do at least 20-30% more volume with current staffing by improving their work flow and reporting format, using PAs, locums, etc.

At macro level, before, RVS, we had the "usual and customary" fee schedule which meant you could charge what the Market determined. Now, with RVS, the Government got us by measuring all aspect of our work. Medicare used to pay us around 200k for 2080 hours of work for Part A (I do not what they pay now). This means they have our hours and have conversion factor that they control unilaterally. Those of moderately savvy in business can see what the G can do going forward with this type of setup.

Cut in 88346-26 did not surprise me, however, what surprised me was the extent and the way they did it (i.e., ignoring established rules and conventions, by using G codes).

For newbies, I suspect there are more codes out there that have not been looked at closely by Medicare, therefore, subject to cuts; AND there are other ESTABLISHED reimbursement fee schedules paying less than the one used now. Had Medicare used the rationale they used this year, they could have implemented the 88346-26 cut years ago.

For historical comparison, I remember that in 1980's, Medicare used to pay 1600-1800 for cataract (one side), now I think it is 500-600. I used see one guy do 20-30 cataracts in one morning, 3 times a week, all by himself. Back then AAO, had a video explaining the procedure where one cataract extraction, there were two fully scrubbed ophthalmologist and 2 nurses and taking over an hour for each site.

It is unfortunate that as we are entering a perfect storm of decreasing volume, reduced reimbursement and zero bargaining power in a position of oversupply without end in sight.
I stated in a post that you went into Path for FP. That is not the case for most of MSs, rather FP is the last thing they want to.
 
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People talk past each other about this all the time though - a lot of people talking about "impending retirement boom" or whatever term to use are speaking in terms of long-term outlook - like 15-20 years. If you project out numbers using current data and absolute numbers, it is very hard to argue that there will be a lot fewer pathologists around then. Where people get agitated on this forum is assuming that that "impending" means "in the next 1-2 years" or some time frame like that.

To me, the absolute numbers and such are somewhat irrelevant. If a pathologist workload and work day could be easily predicted 20 years from now, then that would make more sense. But absolute numbers and projections of such do remain relevant, because it provides something of a baseline. But relying on that to have major significance is not appropriate. Pathologists are likely to continue the trend of doing more work in a day, increasing the actual workload of what constitutes an FTE. If pathologist workload now was exactly the same as it was 20 years ago, there would no doubt be a shortage of pathologists. But that isn't even close to true. Most of that has probably been due to specialization.

At some point it will have to reach a critical point - when can pathologists continue to do more work and when can't they? I think for academics that cliff is farther off than it is in private practice. We have people in our group who are starting to question whether they can continue to increase their workload. There are more demands than there used to be, more things to know, more pressures, etc. So while someone else commented above that this can continue to happen, in a lot of private groups I am not sure how much more can be squeezed out. Continuing specialization will help I suppose, but you can only specialize so much without having to hire someone else.

The main problem is that the problem of actual numbers and pathologist supply is a lot easier to think about when you use current workloads and projections.

Everyone who says they "know" what is going to happen is delusional. "specimens are going to go down." Are you sure? Some people are equally sure that they are going to go up. All we can say for sure is that things will be different - whether volume goes up or down, whether volume goes down and complicated specimens go up, etc.

Reading your posts prompts me the following: have you ever worked for a "crisis center" of any kind? Your writings are so soothing.

I ask you a few simple straight questions and look forward to equally short and straightforward answers:
1-do you accept the fact that, nowadays, it takes to have 1-3 fellowships before a newbie can find a private job?
2-if so, do you think it is OK?
4-if so, do you think that #1 should be disclosed at residency interviews?
5-if so, what do you think we should do to mitigate the #1?
6-are you familiar with CAP's record on job projections past 3 decades?

Corporations and countries spend a large sum of money making projections and invest accordingly, rather than to being nihilistic about the future.

Any one with common sense would say it is better to err with margin of safety (i.e., with shortage) than the other way around.

Who are you folks who worry so much about all others but pathologists?

It makes me wonder whether you are known to or know our leadership, therefore, not at liberty to be impartial.
 
Hmm I'd venture to say that maybe the offers weren't good? Some departments still think they can offer 80k for a junior staff, on call, 2 fellowships and full time. Do you know how much money was in the "offer"?
At least for one program I know surely the starting salary is around $160,000-170,000.
 
...Your point that in Capitalism we are not guaranteed a job would be a fair argument, had our plight been a natural result of a free market. It is not, it is an entirely our incompetent leadership-made. Would you say that no one should expose the Law schools? Capitalism you describe is a "crony Capitalism" so prevalent in the third world countries.

Oh turtle, your longish rambling lugubrious writings are a joy to read. Really. "Capitalism." "Free market." You keep using those words. Too bad you don't understand what they mean. Despite what you and the other 'Pollyannaish' acolytes of "capitalism" and the "free market" believe, the Fact is that the situation we find ourselves in now is in Fact the result of capitalist ideals and the free market at work. Yes, some blame can be laid at the feet of our leadership, academia, the old timers, government, etc. But, collusion, mergers, acquisitions, the emergence of monopolies, lobbyist, and government policies favoring the largest lab corps are the result of the free market capitalism at work. Sure, it's a little more complicated, but we are living in a modern global technologically advanced economy where money talks. The days of the small mom&pop private pathology labs are over. This was inevitable. If you think pathology (or other areas of medicine, at least within the current system in the US) are some how immune to the same market forces that drove the manufacturing, auto sector, teleco, mom&pop corner store, bait shop, and diner out of business, well, you are as deluded as the peons watching "Duck Dynasty". Sorry for the ad hominem, turtle, but you make it too easy.
 
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Colonel Sanders might as well be in that group. Soon pathology labs will have dollar menus. Oh right, we already do have client pricing that low. Nevermind.
 
Thanks WP! That's it, exactly. The democratic capitalist free market at work. (Especially, see the fee structure.)
 
Oh turtle, your longish rambling lugubrious writings are a joy to read. Really. "Capitalism." "Free market." You keep using those words. Too bad you don't understand what they mean. Despite what you and the other 'Pollyannaish' acolytes of "capitalism" and the "free market" believe, the Fact is that the situation we find ourselves in now is in Fact the result of capitalist ideals and the free market at work. Yes, some blame can be laid at the feet of our leadership, academia, the old timers, government, etc. But, collusion, mergers, acquisitions, the emergence of monopolies, lobbyist, and government policies favoring the largest lab corps are the result of the free market capitalism at work. Sure, it's a little more complicated, but we are living in a modern global technologically advanced economy where money talks. The days of the small mom&pop private pathology labs are over. This was inevitable. If you think pathology (or other areas of medicine, at least within the current system in the US) are some how immune to the same market forces that drove the manufacturing, auto sector, teleco, mom&pop corner store, bait shop, and diner out of business, well, you are as deluded as the peons watching "Duck Dynasty". Sorry for the ad hominem, turtle, but you make it too easy.

So would you recommend training more pathologist to further along the Inevitable?
 
Of course we should. The shortage is coming according to this article.
I am thinking about building a pathology lab in my cornfield to meet the demand.
If you build it, they will come.

http://www.archivesofpathology.org/doi/pdf/10.5858/arpa.2013-0200-OA

"This comprehensive analysis predicts that
pathologist numbers will decline steadily beginning in
2015. Anticipated population growth in general and
increases in disease incidence owing to the aging population,
to be presented in a companion article on demand,
will lead to a net deficit in excess of more than 5700 FTE
pathologists. To reach the projected need in pathologist
numbers of nearly 20 000 FTE by 2030 will require an
increase from today of approximately 8.1% more residency
positions. We believe a pathologist shortage will
negatively impact both patient access to laboratory
services and health care providers’ abilities to deliver
more effective health care to their patient populations."
Arch Pathol Lab Med. 2013;137:1723–1732; doi:
10.5858/arpa.2013-0200-OA)
 
So would you recommend training more pathologist to further along the Inevitable?

The short answer, given your clearly rhetorical question, is no.

But, by your logic, should we be training more of any particular profession knowing that there may be difficulty in obtaining jobs? Limiting the argument just to healthcare, why bother training more specialists of any sort? Many are rather superfluous. Some groups do have pretty powerful lobbies, though. Money. We may as well be arguing that we should be training more mid-levels. Which we are, btw. It's the free market, after all.

Face it, under your thin veiled attempt at being a staunch proponent of free markets, you hide that thin veneer of Marxist-Leninist central planning. After all, who could possibly control who and how many people should be trained as pathologists? (Well, beside all the dissuasive posts here on SDN.) Only a government mandate could. It's how it's done in other countries. They make some projections/assumptions/calculated guesses about population growth, pending retirements, technological advancement, tenure, etc. They have some discussion about various merits of these numbers within their parliaments, maybe open some discussions to the "public", take a bribe here or there, a free trip to warmer climes, and then try to predict how many doctors of one kind or another will be necessary to train to support the future population. Then monies in the budgets gets allocated for these trainees, some are even tied to various return-of-service arrangements, infrastructure, research, political gain, etc. And boom, you got yourself a viable model of potential growth.

So, what do you have to offer?
 
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The short answer, given your clearly rhetorical question, is no.
Glad we agree on this point. I speak as a pathologist who feels that what has been going on in our field is not right. I am for a balanced supply proportionate to the demand and a sensible regulatory mechanism; we have had neither for decades.

But, by your logic, should we be training more of any particular profession knowing that there may be difficulty in obtaining jobs? Limiting the argument just to healthcare, why bother training more specialists of any sort? Many are rather superfluous. Some groups do have pretty powerful lobbies, though. Money. We may as well be arguing that we should be training more mid-levels. Which we are, btw. It's the free market, after all.

You ask questions that are too "deep" and I have no satisfactory answer(s). I just know that Pathology is in a huge man-made trouble, far deeper in the hole than any other medical specialty.

So, what do you have to offer?
I can only offer words of advice because we are powerless to move our leaders. My advice to all is to voice our concerns, as loudly and as often, so that others will not stray into the field. How about you, do you any idea of your own?
 
Glad we agree on this point. I speak as a pathologist who feels that what has been going on in our field is not right. I am for a balanced supply proportionate to the demand and a sensible regulatory mechanism; we have had neither for decades.



You ask questions that are too "deep" and I have no satisfactory answer(s). I just know that Pathology is in a huge man-made trouble, far deeper in the hole than any other medical specialty.


I can only offer words of advice because we are powerless to move our leaders. My advice to all is to voice our concerns, as loudly and as often, so that others will not stray into the field. How about you, do you any idea of your own?

It won't matter what you say because the spots are available and if an AMG won't take a spot, you bet an IMG would.

Some of the absolute worst clinical residents I've seen were IMG pathology residents. I can't figure that they fare much better in pathology. Yet if this is what pathology lets into the field, what else do you expect for its future?
 
Glad we agree on this point. I speak as a pathologist who feels that what has been going on in our field is not right. I am for a balanced supply proportionate to the demand and a sensible regulatory mechanism; we have had neither for decades.

But you think you stand for "free market" and "capitalist" principles. The problem is that under such conditions, despite what Econ 101 may have taught you, you cannot achieve "a balanced supply proportionate to the demand". True capitalists will squeeze what they can out of the system and move on to something else. This is exactly what is happening. The gravy train is over. Clearly, pathologists can do more for less pay. Yes, the oversupply issue probably hastens the progression, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. Yes, it disproportionately affects the younger, newly minted, and clearly less qualified candidates. But, it's no different than any other sector of the economy. This is why medicine should not be subject to market forces, but that's neither here nor there. Which is why I argue for people to try to get into a Top n program with brand-name recognition.


I can only offer words of advice because we are powerless to move our leaders. My advice to all is to voice our concerns, as loudly and as often, so that others will not stray into the field. How about you, do you any idea of your own?

Fair enough. But, don't throw around words and concepts that you've been fed by the media propaganda machine and regurgitate it over and over again like the Pavlovian response that it has clearly become.

Although, I don't have your (what was it?) 30 years of experience, I did not enter this field out of a naive sense of entitlement. I worked hard to where I am today, and I hope to continue working in this field for a time to come. I love what I do, and at the moment, I wouldn't trade it for anything else. Call me Pollyanaish, but people should do what they love. If it's only about the money, they good luck. Medicine is not the field for you, unless you're into exploiting others for your personal gain. Like some others on this board, I wan and am keenly aware of the challenges that the field of pathology faces. Yes, path may be a bit different than other specialties, but as mentioned above, if you are willing to buy into the whole "free market" American dream, you have contend with the consequences. Scaring off highly-qualified candidates by using hyperbole is hardly constructive. On the other hand, people who are going into path reluctantly to begin with, perhaps should be running away. But fair warning, their plight will likely not be much better in another field. And Substance is right (wow, did I really say that), those spots will fill, one way or another, and just produce more whiny and complaining future members for this board. Win-win.
 
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Update: My buddy eventually got a job. He interviewed at three places but applied to many many more. Didnt hear responses from most places. The best jobs are by word of mouth and if you dont have connections, you will be applying on pathoutlines, etc and competing with many others (some of which have more experience than you (this is what he was told at an interview-"that we are interviewing ppl with more experience than you"). One place he interviewed at had a high turnover.

His position is an employee. No partnership. Thats all I am going to say. I am happy he got a job as he is one of the nicest guys I know. He bascically had the fellowships that the group was looking for. He applied all over the country and wouldve gone anywhere it seems.

Good luck to all.
 
Update: My buddy eventually got a job. He interviewed at three places but applied to many many more. Didnt hear responses from most places. The best jobs are by word of mouth and if you dont have connections, you will be applying on pathoutlines, etc and competing with many others (some of which have more experience than you (this is what he was told at an interview-"that we are interviewing ppl with more experience than you"). One place he interviewed at had a high turnover.

His position is an employee. No partnership. Thats all I am going to say. I am happy he got a job as he is one of the nicest guys I know. He bascically had the fellowships that the group was looking for. He applied all over the country and wouldve gone anywhere it seems.

Good luck to all.

What about yourself, Keratin? Are you trying to enter the job market later this year? I will be trying to enter it in July 2015.
 
I'm not a Pathologist, but the move toward employed positions with hospitals and hospital-corporations is a widespread one. And the days of big money from private practice billings may be over for most new graduates.
 
I'm not a Pathologist, but the move toward employed positions with hospitals and hospital-corporations is a widespread one.

Update: My buddy eventually got a job. His position is an employee. No partnership. .......... (this is what he was told at an interview-"that we are interviewing ppl with more experience than you").

From your opinion, I gather you are not familiar with employment situation in pathology. It is very likely that Keratin's friend was hired by another pathologist(s) as an employee (without any hope of partnership), keeping possibly only 20-40% of PC revenue generated by him. In our field, it is called "high turnover" or "revolving door" or "sweatshop" job. I personally know of a large group that has had this type of policy for decades, thus making the chief(s) ubber wealthy. It happens because a single/group of pathologists having an exclusive contract with hospital(s) will take advantage of excess supply of young and old pathologists. This creates a steep pyramidal income distribution in our field.

It is difficult for a clinicians to understand looking in from outside. It is radically different than a clinician hiring an associate at a salary during first or second year after training. It is very different than even clinics hiring a moonlighting residents, or a new trainees, at 40-60% of his/her "gross revenue", because, in hospital pathology, most of expenses are born out by hospitals and pathologists get to keep all of PC for their direct or indirect benefits. So the new hires would get paid 20-40% of "net income" rather than "gross income". They also serve as a "shock-absorber" because they are the first ones to go in cases of business malaise; it is easier to let go of an employee than to spread pain amongst partners.

It is a sad situation, but it has been going on for decades. Please understand this does not happen with all groups; there are very reputable groups. I met a guy boasting that a newly trained resident was cheaper than a PA, so they were going with the resident. Then I met a group that had policy of equal partnership to all pathologists; they even gave a 1/2 partnership to a part time lady pathologist who could not work full time due to family obligations.

All this is due to an oversupply of trainees and a blind, insensitive and unethical pathology leadership.


And the days of big money from private practice billings may be over for most new graduates.

Agree.
 
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Over half of all money spent on health care in the US is spent by politicians (i.e. the government). How is this a free market? For the past ~80 years, the current system has become increasingly fascist (i.e. ultimately state control with a veneer of private ownership for scapegoating & motivating purposes). Add to the mix: FDA, insurance mandates, insurance-via-employer deductibility, tax incentives broadly, state licensing, CMS price controls & the inevitable rationing, special government privileges & monopolies, EMTALA, ACO, etc, and you see that market forces barely influence the system. Compliance with the countless state mandates is the primary incentive, regardless of whether you agree with the content of the specific mandates / incentives. Governments write laws not suggestions.
 
I'm not sure that is "very likely" though (that he/she is employed by a private path group). I am not sure the ratios but hospital-employed pathologists are becoming more common. And of course if you work for a ref lab you will be an employee.
 
I'm not sure that is "very likely" though (that he/she is employed by a private path group). I am not sure the ratios but hospital-employed pathologists are becoming more common. And of course if you work for a ref lab you will be an employee.

You may be right.
 
There's a truism in life:
Whoever sees the money first or is the one shaking the hand in each business transaction, makes the most money.

In medicine outside of insurance and management, that would mean the PCPs and the surgeons. In the business world, they would be known as the "front office" or the revenue generators.

Fee for service ironically is what has kept the cost-side "back office" medical specialties such as anesthesia, radiology and path in the running for so long. The eventual retirement of fee for service in favor of ACOs is going to utterly crush these specialties, because the money pool is going to first go through the PCPs and surgeons. The administrators will always kiss ass to the real revenue generators.
 
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"Just-world hypothesis". If only we could limit the number of spots, and so on. But there is much too much money involved in the short term for anything to change. We live and die in the short term, never in the ideal world where pathology spots are limited and every day is sunshine.
 
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I love this environment. The weak hands are dying like flies out of Pathology, struggling to make a single buck for themselves.

~Bostwick Labs is DYING or dead, laying off TONS.
~OURLab is dying. Layoffs abound.
~Clarient has pretty much gone supernova, got the call yesterday it is "DOA", put a fork in it and move on.
~Healthtronics...poor Jeremy Miller, who I think is a cool guy and a Hopkinite, making a cool 1.2+mil in the good times, now filing for unemployment. How the mighty have fallen.

Meanwhile I will have best year in 2014...EVER. No seriously, ever.

If only the Bush tax cuts still existed...

But the dying titans have taught me a VERY valuable lesson: live on 1/2 your income. Save save save.
If you cant live on 1/2 your income, you are doing it wrong. You never know when the music will stop and even my 4-prong income stream system can take hits down the line with Democrats in power.

We ARE the Petite bourgeoisie and we are being hunted like animals by the Left wing in America. Get used to it and adapt. That and fight back.
 
Bostwick's been going downhill for years.

Didn't know OURLab was having trouble. Seems like the owner himself post a path job opening here a while back? If it was him, he didn't use his infamous "FBI Informant" username that got him into hot water.

Are you telling the truth about Clarient? We use them quite frequently. I haven't heard anything.

Not just the titans are dying off. The few remaining independent path labs are selling off fast. There should be some good leakage as labcorp/quest throw away a fair share of business like usual.

What makes America great is that you can climb to the highest heights and fall to deepest lows. Sears/Kmart will be dead soon. I never would have thought that 20 years ago.
 
Only the Strong shall survive Webb.

Give no quarter, ask for no mercy and let fly the black flag!
 
What makes America great is that you can climb to the highest heights and fall to deepest lows. Sears/Kmart will be dead soon. I never would have thought that 20 years ago.


BTW- Kmart already died, but like supply-side Jesus has been resurrected. They declared bankruptcy and issued new shares a few years ago and leaving original stock-holders holding a wet bag.
 
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I actually should have known something was up with Clarient. They didn't send any Panera bread goodies for lab week this year. That should have been a red flag. In previous years, they sent about a month's supply of carbs for everyone.

God, I hate to be starting out as a pathologist in today's climate.
 
From what I have been told all staff-level surgical pathologists were fired at Clarient. Truly grim.
 
From what I have been told all staff-level surgical pathologists were fired at Clarient. Truly grim.

Umm...trying to understand GE's logic here. Pay 600 million dollars for Clarient. Then fire everyone???
 
Umm...trying to understand GE's logic here. Pay 600 million dollars for Clarient. Then fire everyone???

Makes sense.

AP is a loss leader. The recent cuts make it unprofitable.

CP can be done by laboratory technicians and PhD scientists. It rarely requires case-by-case consultation, instead requiring a mostly technical batched black-box approach.

Since most of what pathologists do is AP, and AP is a loss leader and appears to be undergoing a phasing out at Clarient, and CP does not require a pathologist to do, the layoffs are justified.
 
Clarient Laboratories had ZERO traditional Clin Labs.

Some of the stuff on the "CP CMS fee schedule" like classic cytogen was outsourced anyway.

GE didnt really pay 600m for Clarient, what they did was slowly take over Clarient Debt for shares until they owned a majority of it, then outright purchased the final share block from the founders like Dr. Bloom (a real stand up guy btw), who with a sweet check in hand, set sail for the golden shores of some tropical island...damn them!!

TBH, I have no clue what GE's strategy is/was but it is likely they have clue what their strategy is either...
 
From your opinion, I gather you are not familiar with employment situation in pathology. It is very likely that Keratin's friend was hired by another pathologist(s) as an employee (without any hope of partnership), keeping possibly only 20-40% of PC revenue generated by him. In our field, it is called "high turnover" or "revolving door" or "sweatshop" job. I personally know of a large group that has had this type of policy for decades, thus making the chief(s) ubber wealthy. It happens because a single/group of pathologists having an exclusive contract with hospital(s) will take advantage of excess supply of young and old pathologists. This creates a steep pyramidal income distribution in our field.

It is difficult for a clinicians to understand looking in from outside. It is radically different than a clinician hiring an associate at a salary during first or second year after training. It is very different than even clinics hiring a moonlighting residents, or a new trainees, at 40-60% of his/her "gross revenue", because, in hospital pathology, most of expenses are born out by hospitals and pathologists get to keep all of PC for their direct or indirect benefits. So the new hires would get paid 20-40% of "net income" rather than "gross income". They also serve as a "shock-absorber" because they are the first ones to go in cases of business malaise; it is easier to let go of an employee than to spread pain amongst partners.

It is a sad situation, but it has been going on for decades. Please understand this does not happen with all groups; there are very reputable groups. I met a guy boasting that a newly trained resident was cheaper than a PA, so they were going with the resident. Then I met a group that had policy of equal partnership to all pathologists; they even gave a 1/2 partnership to a part time lady pathologist who could not work full time due to family obligations.

All this is due to an oversupply of trainees and a blind, insensitive and unethical pathology leadership.

QUOTE]


that is one way of looking at it. Another way many of us outsiders look at it is this: Why in the world are there such margins in hospital based pathology settings where the hospital picks up expenses and the volume and pc combinations are so great as to produce enough excess $$ to still pay the 'employees' 220kish and still have bags of money for themselves since that 220kish is just a small portion of the profit they are producing? If a 6 person path group has 2 owner/partners and 4 'employees' and they make 7 million a year and the employees get 250k each for 'slave labor' and the 2 owners get around 3 million each for essentially having the contracts, that doesn't tell me that the employees are being ripped off......it tells me that there is too much money(a ton of it govt money) being pumped in to that group in the first place. If there were 6 people in the group and the group had a total profit of 2 million spread equally amongst everyone, everyone would make over 300k.......it's hard to call that 'underpaid' for what is quite frankly not exactly a specialty attracting the brightest bulbs out there(and I don't mean to criticize because my specialty is also very noncompetitve).

I mean really.....that's what really needs to be attacked. Would you pathologists be as satisfied if the employment situation in pathology were more like the employment situations in many fields in medicine where new grads find jobs easy to come by in all regions of the country but the crazy top end dollars arent there by the people with the contracts? No....but that is probably what we are eventually going to. And that's probably a good thing.

The reality is a situation where a 'sweat shop' employee makes 240k to spend 50 hrs a week pushing glass is not underpaid. Just because they technically produce lots of money for the owner with the contracts doesn't mean the employee is underpaid. What it means is the system itself has a lot of waste and room to cut that the owner/partner is able to take advantage of in the short term.....the solution is to eliminate that waste/inefficiency/overpayment. Not somehow make sure it is more equally spread around in pathology.
 
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I am experiencing the same issues... finished surgpath fellowship at my home residency, american medical school grad, no job prospects even though I've been looking since early pgy4. most of my classmates had trouble as well. already making calls to try and find a 2nd fellowship but this is all so demoralizing. i started with just northeast but now im willing to relocate just about anywhere, and even cut my salary minimums to 150k and i dont even care about benefits at this point.

honestly im thinking of just writing this all off, applying to internal med and just being a hospitalist even though the idea is dreadful to me. at least it will pay the bills and the wife and i can finally start a family.
 
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