kgpremed11

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Im very serious, With tuition at ~ 40,000-45,000 for private DO and MD, even if I could make that extremely tight budget work, thats still 200-220k at the end of 4 years. Im alread 70 k in the hole from undergrad and post bac work. Military here I come. :(
 

NeuroLAX

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Im very serious, With tuition at ~ 40,000-45,000 for private DO and MD, even if I could make that extremely tight budget work, thats still 200-220k at the end of 4 years. Im alread 70 k in the hole from undergrad and post bac work. Military here I come. :(
Housing alone will put you over 8k/yr, so no. Now you don't have any money for food, gas (if you own a car), and other living expenses. Loans are the norm for medical education. Obviously it's up to you about going the military route. If that's something you're considering I highly suggest figuring out the pros/cons for your personal situation and see if that is a viable option for you.
 
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If you have already been accepted to medical school, have you thought of applying to some huminatarian groups like Red Cross? I heard that some of those programs offer loan forgiveness, grants, etc... ; there are also many scholarships for medical students interested in working in underserved U.S. regions. If you are still outside of medical school, there are usually alot of opportunities for college students willing to teach in underprivileged school districts. I am not sure about where you live, but in my state both undergraduate and graduate students are usually eligible for such programs.
 
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darklabel

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GradPlus Loans have no limit; it's tied to whatever the school deems as the Cost of Enrollment.

It isn't unusual to have people already 100+k in debt, mostly due to private colleges and taking out loans for those. There are medical students who graduate with 500k+ in loans.

I don't think you should do military if you aren't dead set on it. Also, if you do primary care, then they have programs that allow debt forgiveness and such after 10+ years (especially if you work in areas that have a high need for them).
 
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kgpremed11

kgpremed11

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GradPlus Loans have no limit; it's tied to whatever the school deems as the Cost of Enrollment.

It isn't unusual to have people already 100+k in debt, mostly due to private colleges and taking out loans for those. There are medical students who graduate with 500k+ in loans.

I don't think you should do military if you aren't dead set on it. Also, if you do primary care, then they have programs that allow debt forgiveness and such after 10+ years (especially if you work in areas that have a high need for them).
If you're 500 in debt, you better be doing surgery. Yearly payments for 500,000 in loans is 70,000 yearly for a 10 year repayment. IM FP Psych = 200k-220k loan repaymen 1/3 of salary, taxes 1/3 salary, you're left with 70k if that much to live on. Might as well have been a nurse. I totally anticipate wide eyed, immature pre meds saying "I just wanna help people."
 

NeuroLAX

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If you're 500 in debt, you better be doing surgery. Yearly payments for 500,000 in loans is 70,000 yearly for a 10 year repayment. IM FP Psych = 200k-220k loan repaymen 1/3 of salary, taxes 1/3 salary, you're left with 70k if that much to live on. Might as well have been a nurse. I totally anticipate wide eyed, immature pre meds saying "I just wanna help people."
Blasphemy. It's called living within your means. 70k is a lot of money. Over time you'll obviously earn much more than that.
 

GopherMD

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Blasphemy. It's called living within your means. 70k is a lot of money.
This. Unless you have fantasies about buying an Italian sports car and a beach home right after residency, most people are happy living off 70k a year.
 

Ibn Alnafis MD

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If you're 500 in debt, you better be doing surgery. Yearly payments for 500,000 in loans is 70,000 yearly for a 10 year repayment. IM FP Psych = 200k-220k loan repaymen 1/3 of salary, taxes 1/3 salary, you're left with 70k if that much to live on. Might as well have been a nurse. I totally anticipate wide eyed, immature pre meds saying "I just wanna help people."
I agree with much of what you say, but keep in mind that 70K of post tax income put you ahead of many teachers, engineers, etc... I realize that the counter argument to this is that those professionals didn't endure nearly a decade of education and training after college. However, very few of them will be looking at doubling their post tax income after ten years of working (remember that once you pay off your debt, your take home salary increases significantly). Besides, medicine offers a high degree of job security. That must be worth something, in my opinion.

Regardless of what everyone says, especially here on SDN, medicine still offers a lucrative lifestyle.
 

NontradCA

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Not after training for 11-15 years
You could work in a rural/underserved area :). Without getting into loan repayment the positions there pay more and the cost of living is lower :thumbup:
 

SLC

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Not after training for 11-15 years
Sure it is! Have you ever had that kind of take-home pay?

Yeah, you can't necessarily buy your McMansion yet, but you'll do OK.
 

Woland

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Blasphemy. It's called living within your means. 70k is a lot of money. Over time you'll obviously earn much more than that.
+1.

Also, I disagree with the general notion that one can not live on 10k/year.

I had to do it for the first few years as an immigrant in this country. No parental support, no relatives and no connections.

I do not want to go into the whole ".. when I was young I walked barefoot to school 8 miles in the snow uphill both ways.." During my first few years in the US spoke very little English, I earned minimum wage and had to pay multiple immigration related expenses. This left me with 8100 a year first year and 11000 for a second one.

You whine less, you find room-mate, you go on a diet (real diet, not the way Americans pig out, get fat and call it diet), you own a car without payment and make sure it is cheap enough that if it breaks down, you can just scrpa it for couple hundreds to a junk yard and buy new one, you carry cheapest car insurance. Luckily, I do not smoke/drink -- so my arbitrary expenses were limited to books.

But on the other hand, there are no limits onGrad+ loans, so none of the self-restrictions are necessary.
 

Ibn Alnafis MD

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Blasphemy. It's called living within your means. 70k is a lot of money. Over time you'll obviously earn much more than that.
Exactly. I, along with my wife and son, survive on less than 2200 per month. Sure we are not driving German cars and dining at gourmet restaurants, but we are not deprived of our necessities.

My uncle earns 70K pretax. He lives with his stay at home wife and three kids in a 300k house and drives a 2010 Toyota.
 

darklabel

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If you're 500 in debt, you better be doing surgery. Yearly payments for 500,000 in loans is 70,000 yearly for a 10 year repayment. IM FP Psych = 200k-220k loan repaymen 1/3 of salary, taxes 1/3 salary, you're left with 70k if that much to live on. Might as well have been a nurse. I totally anticipate wide eyed, immature pre meds saying "I just wanna help people."
Uncalled for, I'm not in a predicament of having such a high debt load, I am merely stating there are students with 500k debt loans.

Also, if you picked IM/FP/Psych, then look into programs where you can have debt forgiveness and such. Besides 70k after taxes, as said before, is a lot of money. Most nurses don't even make that pre-tax.
 

MedPR

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If you're 500 in debt, you better be doing surgery. Yearly payments for 500,000 in loans is 70,000 yearly for a 10 year repayment. IM FP Psych = 200k-220k loan repaymen 1/3 of salary, taxes 1/3 salary, you're left with 70k if that much to live on. Might as well have been a nurse. I totally anticipate wide eyed, immature pre meds saying "I just wanna help people."
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
 
Jan 2, 2012
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If you're 500 in debt, you better be doing surgery. Yearly payments for 500,000 in loans is 70,000 yearly for a 10 year repayment. IM FP Psych = 200k-220k loan repaymen 1/3 of salary, taxes 1/3 salary, you're left with 70k if that much to live on. Might as well have been a nurse. I totally anticipate wide eyed, immature pre meds saying "I just wanna help people."
So then be a nurse :confused: Doesn't seem very nice to talk about your worries of debt and then throw this gem in here. I can't even imagine how great life would be after 70k post tax per year.
 

TriagePreMed

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If you're 500 in debt, you better be doing surgery. Yearly payments for 500,000 in loans is 70,000 yearly for a 10 year repayment. IM FP Psych = 200k-220k loan repaymen 1/3 of salary, taxes 1/3 salary, you're left with 70k if that much to live on. Might as well have been a nurse. I totally anticipate wide eyed, immature pre meds saying "I just wanna help people."
Have you considered that some people might not be in it for the money? And considering the median household income is 50k, 70k, without factoring what your partner may earn(likely at least another 30k after taxes), is still good money to live on for 10 years.

During college (mid-2000) I was paying around $425 + Utilities for living in a room. Considering the times now, say 600 rent + 400 in food and other expenses, you could potentially live off 12k a year. Give it up to 15k + 45k in tuition and you can end up with a very manageable debt.
 
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kgpremed11

kgpremed11

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So then be a nurse :confused: Doesn't seem very nice to talk about your worries of debt and then throw this gem in here. I can't even imagine how great life would be after 70k post tax per year.
Nurses making 70 k get to take home 52,000 a year.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Nurses making 70 k get to take home 52,000 a year.
52k is enough for a decent apartment in an affluent area, quality food, and two Caribbean vacations + 5k in the bank.

I fail to see the issue here.
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Not after training for 11-15 years
PhDs? Social workers with doctoral degrees? The list goes on...

70k is not chump change. Afterward you'll pay your debt off and you'll be making double that. More than enough to afford to live in an extremely affluent area and have cars.
 
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kgpremed11

kgpremed11

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52k is enough for a decent apartment in an affluent area, quality food, and two Caribbean vacations + 5k in the bank.

I fail to see the issue here.
The point is, with 500k in loans, there is a very small difference in the take home pay of a doctor and nurse but the doctor has spent an extra decade training.
 
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Drrrrrr. Celty

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The point is, with 500k in loans, t there is a very small difference in the take home pay of a doctor and nurse but the doctor has spent an extra decade training.
How valid is it to compare max debt to no debt? 4 years of private nursing school + 2 years of MS training = let's conservatively say 200 ( really 300).

So let's try this again. 200k with 500k debt vs 70k with 200k debt?

See what you're doing here?
 
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kgpremed11

kgpremed11

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How valid is it to compare max debt to no debt? 4 years of private nursing school + 2 years of MS training = let's conservatively say 200 ( really 300).

So let's try this again. 200k with 500k debt vs 70k with 200k debt?

See what you're doing here?
Dude nurses do not have 200k in debt. are you serious?:confused:
 

Drrrrrr. Celty

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Anyway, I laugh at your notion of living off of 8k a year. That's not even going to cover a cheap apartment with a roomie arounds most medical schools even in the backwaters.
 
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kgpremed11

kgpremed11

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So what you're saying is a doctor can have 200k debt from undergrad, but a nurse cannot?
When did I ever say anybody can have 200k from undergrad:confused:? They could but it would be very rare. Dude go to bed please.
 

MedPR

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When did I ever say anybody can have 200k from undergrad:confused:? They could but it would be very rare. Dude go to bed please.
Ok let's do this.

Nurse, 100k salary, no debt. Takes home 75k/year from age 23-70. That's $3,525,000.

Doctor, 180k salary, 500k debt after interest. Takes home 135k after taxes. We'll even give him a high malpractice and say he only gets $100k after taxes+malpractice from age 29-70. To repay $500k in debt is $4200/mo for 10 years starting at age 29. So during those 10 years of loan payments he only gets $50k. That's $500k for the first 10 years. Now back to $100k for age 39-70. That's $3,100,000. Total $3,600,000. More than a nurse even when you assume one of the lowest physician salaries and slap them with a very high malpractice.
 

BenzylAcetate

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Im very serious, With tuition at ~ 40,000-45,000 for private DO and MD, even if I could make that extremely tight budget work, thats still 200-220k at the end of 4 years. Im alread 70 k in the hole from undergrad and post bac work. Military here I come. :(
This is something I have been thinking about quite a bit lately as well. If you live with one or more roommates and are within walking/biking/public transportation of your school and rotation sites I think it could be possible. It depends on how Spartan a lifestyle you are willing to lead.

There is an interesting blog I found recently about a physics phd who retired in his early 30's by living off of ~5k/year. He makes a lot of sacrifices I don't think I could, but I find most of what he writes refreshing and fairly agreeable.

http://earlyretirementextreme.com/how-i-live-on-7000-per-year.html
 
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Living off of 10 might be feasible. If you could live with a roommate or spouse. In many places you could manage an apartment+bills for 1k a month. So 500 a piece. That's 6k over the course of a year. 4k remaining for food, books, travel, etc is a tough sell though.

The key would depend on where you are going to school. S/O and I are looking at places for next year that actually 2br/2ba apartments, mid-range quality (relatively new, reasonable areas of town) that aren't passing $750/mo on rent. Many of these places have electric or water or internet thrown in if you are lucky.

If you can get some textbooks from second years and budget super well for groceries you might be able to manage it. You can certainly keep costs down. It is very immature not to try.

I've been told many times to spend your first 5 years as an attending living like a resident. Don't buy any new cars. Don't go nuts. Even if your take home is only 150k those first few years, if you are still living as though you are making 50k, your debt will shrink away quickly then you can go nuts or whatever.
 
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Nurses making 70 k get to take home 52,000 a year.
I like how, presumably, a kid in his early 20s throws around 20k of money like it's nothing lol. There is also paying off more than the monthly payment and going into one of those organizations that helps pay off your debt. It is very possible to pay the loan off way before the 10 year period. So then your take home after taxes is 150k. Is that enough for you? :confused: :rolleyes:
 

sandstone

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I find it comical when people on these forums make it sound like living on 50-70k/year is total poverty. My family lived on 50k per year in an expensive city in a pretty expensive state, and we lived a nice lifestyle with 2 cars, decent rented house, good quality food, eating out once in awhile, taking some fun roadtrips here and there, good quality clothes, overall a nice quality of life. I will have >300k of loans to repay in the end, and I don't see why I can't pay them of within five years. If I make 200k/year and after all expenses and taxes that becomes 140k/yr (I'm just guessing here), pay 70k/yr toward loans and have 70k/yr to live on, I'll be psyched! I feel like I'd be living large right there, and I'd be taking home more than the majority of people in this county and the world. Then after its payed off in five years I'll feel crazy wealthy living on 140/yr. Geez if people are buying mansions and fancy cars before paying off loans, no wonder it's an issue them. People make it sound like "living like a resident" is the worst doomsday situation in the world. I do wonder how many people on SDN have spent years working a crappy job for 30k/yr before going into med school. My past ten years of working crappy low paying jobs makes me very excited to have the opportunity to go to med school.
 

TriagePreMed

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The point is, with 500k in loans, there is a very small difference in the take home pay of a doctor and nurse but the doctor has spent an extra decade training.
Yeah, but then you have to actually be a nurse. Do you want to be a nurse? Because if you do, you just discovered why it would be a better route for you.
 

GopherMD

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The point is, with 500k in loans, there is a very small difference in the take home pay of a doctor and nurse but the doctor has spent an extra decade training.
Then just become a nurse instead. Problem solved.
 

DrWily

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Or marry a nurse. Combined total income > 120k/yr after taxes until loans paid off (according to your math) which will then increase to nearly 200k/yr after loans paid off OR MORE depending on specialty (Probably more; I'm looking @ you ROADs). No kids, only pets + nice things

My situation. You jelly?
 

MedPR

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Or marry a nurse. Combined total income > 120k/yr after taxes until loans paid off (according to your math) which will then increase to nearly 200k/yr after loans paid off OR MORE depending on specialty (Probably more; I'm looking @ you ROADs). No kids, only pets + nice things

My situation. You jelly?
Or marry another doctor who wont have any loans because their parents paid for med school. My situation. You jelly?
 

Shinken

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Check your math, people. Primary care is not going to put you in the poor house.
 

DrWily

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Or marry another doctor who wont have any loans because their parents paid for med school. My situation. You jelly?
No, because marrying another doctor is a terrible idea for reasons other than money :laugh::p

The difference is I'm already married i.e. locked it down. Come at me bro :D


.
 
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GypsyHummus

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No, because marrying another doctor is a terrible idea for reasons other than money :laugh::p
I would think it would depend on what type of doctor the spouse is i.e, if they have manageable hours.
 

GUH

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Ok let's do this.

Nurse, 100k salary, no debt. Takes home 75k/year from age 23-70. That's $3,525,000.

Doctor, 180k salary, 500k debt after interest. Takes home 135k after taxes. We'll even give him a high malpractice and say he only gets $100k after taxes+malpractice from age 29-70. To repay $500k in debt is $4200/mo for 10 years starting at age 29. So during those 10 years of loan payments he only gets $50k. That's $500k for the first 10 years. Now back to $100k for age 39-70. That's $3,100,000. Total $3,600,000. More than a nurse even when you assume one of the lowest physician salaries and slap them with a very high malpractice.
I would think it would depend on what type of doctor the spouse is i.e, if they have manageable hours.
My wife is a dermatologist who works twenty hours per week for A-list actors on a cash-only basis. She teaches yoga and is an underwear model in her spare time. Our house is okay for the area (Beverly Hills) and our indoor pools aren't quite as large as our neighbors' but we are getting by okay anyways. I've learned to be content with what I have and not focus so much on "what could have been". Just enjoying the simple pleasures of life, eg, long walks on our private beach, Sunday joyrides in our Maybach, and the mountain breeze on the patio of our slopeside lodge in Aspen. I'm not sure how I'm going to afford my upcoming medical school debts but those worries are for another day.
 
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DrWily

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My wife is a dermatologist who works twenty hours per week for A-list actors on a cash-only basis. She teaches yoga and is an underwear model in her spare time. Our house is okay for the area (Beverly Hills) and our indoor pools aren't quite as large as our neighbors' but we are getting by okay anyways. I've learned to be content with what I have and not focus so much on "what could have been".
At least try to make it believable for the first few sentences. Draws in the reader and then BAM you get them with the troll statement. Openly trolling is less entertaining and therefore, less fun for the reader.
 

Oo Cipher oO

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Military here I come. :(
As someone on the HPSP scholarship don't join the military because of financial reasons. It will be one of the longest lasting mistakes of your life. In the civilian world if you hate your employer or job then you can quit; in the military you can't.

I'm sorry you have so much debt from undergrad already. I know the fear of entering into more debt with no end in sight for decades. But you will be alright. Physicians are doing alright. Deep breaths.
 
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At least try to make it believable for the first few sentences. Draws in the reader and then BAM you get them with the troll statement. Openly trolling is less entertaining and therefore, less fun for the reader.
I disagree; he wasn't going for the troll. He was just being satirical. Spell check.
 

DrWily

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I disagree; he wasn't going for the troll. He was just being satirical. Spell check.
Oh I see the art in his response now. I always just assume people are trolling and often equate it with bad trolling.

I enjoyed his response much more now. Thank you.
 

Ost3oclast

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Oh I see the art in his response now. I always just assume people are trolling and often equate it with bad trolling.

I enjoyed his response much more now. Thank you.
Hahaha I dont blame you for assuming though. SDN has been littered with crazy amounts of them trolls lately.
 

Mehd School

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If you're going into medicine expecting to get rich, you're gonna have a bad time.

The only exception I can see to this is the ballers that get full ride tuition to some killer schools.
 

GypsyHummus

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If you're going into medicine expecting to get rich, you're gonna have a bad time.

The only exception I can see to this is the ballers that get full ride tuition to some killer schools.
Or you go into a ROADS specialty.
 

circulus vitios

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Ok let's do this.

Nurse, 100k salary, no debt. Takes home 75k/year from age 23-70. That's $3,525,000.

Doctor, 180k salary, 500k debt after interest. Takes home 135k after taxes. We'll even give him a high malpractice and say he only gets $100k after taxes+malpractice from age 29-70. To repay $500k in debt is $4200/mo for 10 years starting at age 29. So during those 10 years of loan payments he only gets $50k. That's $500k for the first 10 years. Now back to $100k for age 39-70. That's $3,100,000. Total $3,600,000. More than a nurse even when you assume one of the lowest physician salaries and slap them with a very high malpractice.
Salaries are typically quoted after malpractice premiums. $180k/year is about $115k/year, depending on where you live. $500k over 10 years is about $5700/month -- you forgot about compound interest. I'm not sure how residency works with regards with interest accrual, but if loans are not in forbearance during residency then expect the payments to be even larger.