Post-doc advice: Prestige vs future job stability?

[calvicorse]

Hello!

I am currently an intern and like many others on this site, will be starting to interview for post-docs in a few weeks. For some background about my situation before I get to my question, I attended a well-ranked PhD program in clinical psychology. However, although the program was at a solid research university, it didn’t have the impressive ‘name’ cache of some school like say, Berkeley, Yale, etc. I plan on pursuing a clinical postdoc and career that mainly focuses on therapy and maybe some assessment. I am not sure exactly what I want to do yet long term, but I am considering a career (at least for a few years) at a VA—or other type of hospital setting—and then potentially moving into private practice sometime later down the line. If relevant to mention, I do have some prior VA experience from practica.

I bring up the topic of name “cache” of program because although our field is a little weird in that many of the top research programs are from less well known schools (e.g., UNC chapel hill), I still believe that when moving into a clinical role, where you attended school seems to be relevant to patients. That is, if deciding between X and Y therapist, the patient may rather elect to see the provider with better credentials assuming they are better trained (similar to an MD, perhaps)--all else being equal. Of course, one could also make the point that the most relevant factor may be if you take the client's insurance -- but I digress. Perhaps I am making too much of an assumption here -- but I figured that having done your phd/internship/post-doc at some place with a very impressive name would be helpful in some capacity or another.

Now, to my question: In the coming weeks, I have several interviews for clinical postdocs at VAs, as well as AMCs at some prestigious institutions with good name recognition. Something I am torn about—and wanted to get others’ thoughts on—is whether it would be more beneficial for me to do a post-doc at some place with an impressive name so as to potentially attract future clients and have an edge over competition (e.g., if wanting to set up a cash only practice with wealthy/educated clients later on)– or whether it would make more sense to pursue a post-doc at a VA, where there is a higher chance that a post-doc might turn into a job offer.

I am pretty certain that if I did decide to go to the prestigious AMC, it would just be a post-doc, as I’m not trying to be an academic and they probably wouldn't invite me to join their staff, anyway. However, outside of our bubble of psychologists, I don’t think the VA has a particularly good reputation, and I am not sure how much it will help me attract clients (although I know the training is solid). Conversely, my understanding (please correct me if I’m wrong here) is that VAs tend to hire from within and often use post-doc as somewhat of a hiring mechanism—so I could see it being advantageous to do a post-doc at a VA in that it could lead to a job offer afterward.

Oh, lastly, the “fit” at both the AMC and the VA sites are similar for the post-doc (e.g., similar clinical emphases), so to me this isn’t really a question of “go where you want to get XYZ specialized training”.

FWIW, I actually turned down a PhD program with a more 'impressive name and reputation' to attend a program where my research interests were better aligned with my advisor. In retrospect, given that I didn't want to do research long-term, I wonder if that was a mistake, and I should've attended the more prestigious institution as it may have been more beneficial for me clinically. I am hoping to not make that "mistake" again.

Thank you for your thoughts!

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[foreverbull]

I still believe that when moving into a clinical role, where you attended school seems to be relevant to patients. That is, if deciding between X and Y therapist, the patient may rather elect to see the provider with better credentials assuming they are better trained (similar to an MD, perhaps)--all else being equal.

"Better credentials" meaning a recognizable school? Credential-wise, a Licensed Psychologist is a Licensed Psychologist.

In my experience, only one client in private practice has ever mentioned my alma mater. Unless you run in upper class circles where name-dropping is how folks size each other up (Greenwich, CT, comes to mind, but it's a world unto itself), you're making some pretty big assumptions about how important your school/postdoc is to the general public.

Initially, before you network with colleagues, folks will pick you because of your picture, location, issues you treat, and how nice, professional, and appealing you sound on your business website and Psychology Today profile, not necessarily the school you attended or the postdoc you worked at. After you make connections, folks will also be referred to you by colleagues. I've spoken to several folks seeking a therapist, and none have asked about my schooling/training to discern whether it was "prestigious" enough for them. The lay public has no idea what doctoral programs are like across institutions, nor do they know what APA-accreditation means. I can't speak to the upper class clientele quite as much, because I haven't seen the super-rich demographic yet in practice, but I see a fair range, and I live in one of the most expensive metro areas in the country.

I would say generally, postdoc site matters more to employers, not so much to most private clients, so go with what you would prefer to do for postdoc with that in mind.

 

[erg923]

Only other psychologists care where you did post doc. No one else cares or even knows what it is.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I don't work in private practice, but I've never had a patient ask where I completed internship or postdoc (I'd be surprised if most knew what the latter was, given our circuitous training route). I have had patients ask where I went to grad school, but it's almost always been in the small talk sense. For what it's worth, I chose my postdoc site over a handful of prestigious AMCs based entirely on my feel for the training faculty and opportunities. I've never regretted it (although I'm sure training would've also been excellent at those other sites).

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Hello!

I am currently an intern and like many others on this site, will be starting to interview for post-docs in a few weeks. For some background about my situation before I get to my question, I attended a well-ranked PhD program in clinical psychology. However, although the program was at a solid research university, it didn’t have the impressive ‘name’ cache of some school like say, Berkeley, Yale, etc. I plan on pursuing a clinical postdoc and career that mainly focuses on therapy and maybe some assessment. I am not sure exactly what I want to do yet long term, but I am considering a career (at least for a few years) at a VA—or other type of hospital setting—and then potentially moving into private practice sometime later down the line. If relevant to mention, I do have some prior VA experience from practica.

I bring up the topic of name “cache” of program because although our field is a little weird in that many of the top research programs are from less well known schools (e.g., UNC chapel hill), I still believe that when moving into a clinical role, where you attended school seems to be relevant to patients. That is, if deciding between X and Y therapist, the patient may rather elect to see the provider with better credentials assuming they are better trained (similar to an MD, perhaps)--all else being equal. Of course, one could also make the point that the most relevant factor may be if you take the client's insurance -- but I digress. Perhaps I am making too much of an assumption here -- but I figured that having done your phd/internship/post-doc at some place with a very impressive name would be helpful in some capacity or another.

Now, to my question: In the coming weeks, I have several interviews for clinical postdocs at VAs, as well as AMCs at some prestigious institutions with good name recognition. Something I am torn about—and wanted to get others’ thoughts on—is whether it would be more beneficial for me to do a post-doc at some place with an impressive name so as to potentially attract future clients and have an edge over competition (e.g., if wanting to set up a cash only practice with wealthy/educated clients later on)– or whether it would make more sense to pursue a post-doc at a VA, where there is a higher chance that a post-doc might turn into a job offer.

I am pretty certain that if I did decide to go to the prestigious AMC, it would just be a post-doc, as I’m not trying to be an academic and they probably wouldn't invite me to join their staff, anyway. However, outside of our bubble of psychologists, I don’t think the VA has a particularly good reputation, and I am not sure how much it will help me attract clients (although I know the training is solid). Conversely, my understanding (please correct me if I’m wrong here) is that VAs tend to hire from within and often use post-doc as somewhat of a hiring mechanism—so I could see it being advantageous to do a post-doc at a VA in that it could lead to a job offer afterward.

Oh, lastly, the “fit” at both the AMC and the VA sites are similar for the post-doc (e.g., similar clinical emphases), so to me this isn’t really a question of “go where you want to get XYZ specialized training”.

FWIW, I actually turned down a PhD program with a more 'impressive name and reputation' to attend a program where my research interests were better aligned with my advisor. In retrospect, given that I didn't want to do research long-term, I wonder if that was a mistake, and I should've attended the more prestigious institution as it may have been more beneficial for me clinically. I am hoping to not make that "mistake" again.

Thank you for your thoughts!

I may be an anomaly but I don't recall ever having a client worry about 'where I went to school' (i.e., whether it was a 'prestigious' institution or not). I would imagine that, if anything, any concerns in the future will be about whether you went to an online 'fly-by-night' sort of diploma mill or to an actual brick and mortar university. But I'm not sure that future patients would even worry about that, to be honest.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I agree with the above posters. I’ve been in private practice for almost 9 years and my Alma mater has only come up a handful of time. Most people (incorrectly) assume that I went to the local large university where most of their medical professionals studied.

Good luck with your postdoc options!

 

[deleted343839]

I think you're really overvaluing the importance of having a name-brand degree. Most of my patients never ask where I did my training, and when this does come up it has always been in reference to my Ph.D. Outside of our field no one really knows about the internship/postdoc system and therefore wouldn't know or care to ask. Even board certification matters little to the average consumer.

Having a strong referral network will do much more for your practice than any brand-name recognition would. I encourage you to network with private practice psychologists in your community, read practice-oriented newsletters, etc.

Anyway, choose the training that best meets your needs as a future practitioner in the specialty. if you think you might want a career in the VA, though, look closely at VA postdocs. The VA is not a bad place to launch a clinical career. One nice aspect of a VA clinical job is it gives you the security to start a small side practice and decide whether it's something you want to grow into a full-time job. Many AMCs will not allow you to do that, or will tightly restrict your outside practice activities.

 

[Parabolas]

Lots of people here saying that clients have never asked them about, or brought up, which schools they attended or where they trained. It's important to remember that this doesn't mean that clients don't know or care about these things. You can be sure that there are some clients who visit providers' websites and click on their "Training/Education" page. You will most certainly be marketing yourself better if you're able to put some names there, whether they're grad programs or internships or postdocs, that the general public will recognize and regard highly. It may not make a *huge* difference, but people here are most definitely underestimating it.

 

[calvicorse]

Lots of people here saying that clients have never asked them about, or brought up, which schools they attended or where they trained. It's important to remember that this doesn't mean that clients don't know or care about these things. You can be sure that there are some clients who visit providers' websites and click on their "Training/Education" page. You will most certainly be marketing yourself better if you're able to put some names there, whether they're grad programs or internships or postdocs, that the general public will recognize and regard highly. It may not make a *huge* difference, but people here are most definitely underestimating it.

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your thoughts and perspectives. While I agree that most clients are definitely not well acquainted with our internship/post-doc system, I still do believe that consumers often do go the doctors assumed to be the most competent. Sure, only a handful of clients have also asked me where I went to grad school over the past five years....but that doesn't mean when they go to your website/psychology page, they don't look at your bio and scan for any names they know, no? If you were searching for a child psychologist for your child, without referral (as i imagine many people look online), would you rather take them to a clinician who attended or had worked at Harvard Medical School or someone who went to Western Kentucky State?

Your points are well taken though. Perhaps referrals and networking are king, so the key is really to become well known in a community, particularly for a specific niche, and go with that.

Regarding VA positions, though, another question. If you have not done a VA internship/post doc, is it "very hard" to attain a staff psychologist position, even if you have good credentials (e.g., post doc at prestigious AMC, solid phd program) and prior practicum experience at a VA during grad school?

 

[hillies]

To answer your most recent question, YES. I think it would be rather hard to break into a VA without any VA training. A practicum may be enough, but for more competitive positions, it helps to know people there, and the best way to do that is to have trained there.

To answer your earlier question about "name brand" schools, I would say that it probably matters to some degree, although it may not be in the way you think, and it's probably not a deal-breaker for finding employment. Anecdotally, I know for a fact that my two colleagues who were responsible for my hiring really didn't care where I went to grad school, they cared that I was competent and a good human being--all info they were able to get from my references. Same thing when I was helping to hire a faculty member last year. We didn't care where they did their training, we wanted to know what *kind* of person and professional they would be -- again, info we were able to get from our connections and their stated references.

However, with the physicians (medical director and a surgeon within the specialty I work in) who interviewed me for my current role, it did matter where I did my internship and fellowship, because that's what they know. In fact, the medical director later told me, "I expect great things from you. I don't know a single bad physician that's trained at XYZ." Per my supervisor, he and the surgeon also brought this up when they were discussing the candidates, and it was a factor in receiving their votes. Obviously my story does not necessarily mean you will have the same experience, but I do think it can matter. That said, I did not choose my post-doc or internship for the names, I chose them based on fit with my career goals and interests, and because of that, I was able to have deeper, more meaningful relationships with my supervisors because I really enjoyed my clinical and research experiences at those organizations and it showed. Those relationships are why I got the job when they checked references.

Patients occasionally care where I went to grad school and usually ask me..."so where is that?" because it's not a name brand. Honestly, when it does come up it usually seems more like anxiety about going to a new provider, etc. or small talk. I've never had anyone walk out of my office or refuse to see me once they're scheduled with me (patients don't choose who they see in our practice, scheduling is based on availability and practice area). Again, patients care that you're kind, empathic, and helpful.

 

[foreverbull]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your thoughts and perspectives. While I agree that most clients are definitely not well acquainted with our internship/post-doc system, I still do believe that consumers often do go the doctors assumed to be the most competent. Sure, only a handful of clients have also asked me where I went to grad school over the past five years....but that doesn't mean when they go to your website/psychology page, they don't look at your bio and scan for any names they know, no? If you were searching for a child psychologist for your child, without referral (as i imagine many people look online), would you rather take them to a clinician who attended or had worked at Harvard Medical School or someone who went to Western Kentucky State?

Your points are well taken though. Perhaps referrals and networking are king, so the key is really to become well known in a community, particularly for a specific niche, and go with that.

Regarding VA positions, though, another question. If you have not done a VA internship/post doc, is it "very hard" to attain a staff psychologist position, even if you have good credentials (e.g., post doc at prestigious AMC, solid phd program) and prior practicum experience at a VA during grad school?

It sounds like you were looking for information that confirmed what you already believed, despite several folks in here who are out in the field providing a different perspective based on experience.

As far as the VA, if you've done a practicum there, that may help a little, but it may be a tough road to get into the system, at least where I am. VAs in my area love to promote within and hire folks who've done internships/postdocs in VAs. I've done a VA practicum and it wasn't enough experience to get me an interview for a VA postdoc (I did a non-VA internship). The jobs I typically see at VAs in my area require 2+ years of licensure under your belt before you can even apply for a staff psychologist job, so you're looking at working elsewhere post-licensure for at least a few years before you can try to get into the system if you don't do a postdoc there. This may be region-specific, so it'd be good to hear from other folks in less crowded areas.

 

[MAClinician]

If you were searching for a child psychologist for your child, without referral (as i imagine many people look online), would you rather take them to a clinician who attended or had worked at Harvard Medical School or someone who went to Western Kentucky State?

As a clinician who has primarily worked with children and adolescents for the past 12 years, the majority of the parents don't ask where I went to school. Many of them expect me to talk to their 7 or 8 year old for 45 minutes because that's what they think counseling is. I have to explain that children communicate differently than adults, mostly through behavior, but I use a variety of interventions to get to the main issue from the child's perspective. At intake I emphasize the type of training I've had and the various problems I've worked with, but where I went to school doesn't come up. Parents want to know 1) do you know why my child is doing the things they are doing? 2) can you help my child? and 3) can you help me help my child? Sometimes you even get the parents who think you have a magic wand and can "miraculously fix" the child. What matters most is do you have the skills and training to piece out what is happening with that kid. (Adult referrals will be different) If my child had a behavior disorder, I would take them to the provider who can treat a behavior disorder, versus the one who works primarily with mood or anxiety disorders. And if you're any good at what you do, you'll probably realize that a decent portion of behavior problems are due to underlying mood/anxiety problems in kids, or other factors (ineffective parenting being #1). HMS training is useless if you can't address my kid's problem, from a parent's perspective. Your referrals will come from your ability to successfully, effectively, and efficiently help clients (child or adult) function better, and people are more likely to share *that* to potential referrals than where you did your training.

 

[deleted343839]

If you were searching for a child psychologist for your child, without referral (as i imagine many people look online), would you rather take them to a clinician who attended or had worked at Harvard Medical School or someone who went to Western Kentucky State?

Of course, but it's unlikely that the options would be limited in this way. Consumers also look for years of experience (I get asked about this more than where I trained) and experience with certain types of problems or populations (I am also asked about this more often than where I trained). Plus, for almost any healthy practice, word of mouth is very important. For example, when searching for child psychologists, many people ask their pediatricians, school staff, or other professionals for recommendations (or these may be the people who bring up the idea of a psychologist in the first place). People act on recommendations from someone they know, whether it's coming from is a physician, principal, neighbor, minister, etc.

You will most certainly be marketing yourself better if you're able to put some names there, whether they're grad programs or internships or postdocs, that the general public will recognize and regard highly. It may not make a *huge* difference, but people here are most definitely underestimating it.

I work in a large city with a healthy economy, where the cash-pay private practice model is pretty common. The rules that apply to reputation/appearances in academia do not translate well to the private practice world. Anyway, the question at hand is not whether it makes a difference at all but whether that difference is enough to sacrifice what might be a better fit in training. All other things being equal, sure, go with the big name, but that's almost never the actual choice being made.

 

[cara susanna]

By the time I was on post doc I was SO sick of moving and not having stability. I did a prestigious post doc and I don't regret it, but I've lost a lot of money and time moving from my post doc to a job, and then that job to another job after I turned out to be pretty miserable in my first job. I'm finally in the place I think I want to end up but I'm super in debt from all of the moves and financial instability. Just my two cents, of course.

 

[Ollie123]

Obviously all other things being equal, it can help to have prestige. Of course, all other things are never equal. There are certainly folks out there for whom training institution matters a ton, but this is a REALLY niche population. Even among the private pay world, I suspect this wouldn't amount to more than a small percentage of the population.

If stability matters, I certainly wouldn't feel like you "have" to have something Harvard-like on your CV to build a private practice. If you don't mind some extra moving and would worry about this otherwise, its not a bad choice. If you want to stay in either area (I'm unclear if this is all the same city or different locations) factor that into things. Its easier to build a network if you aren't moving around. I suspect the typical AMC clientele is more likely than the typical VA clientele to be able/willing to pay cash (which matters since you might get referrals from your former colleagues), but this is a gross generalization and entirely dependent on setting within each environment.

 

[PsyDr]

My perspective:

1) Determine what you really want out of your job. Maybe you want to win the Nobel prize. Maybe you want to make a ton of money. Maybe you want to work at a relaxed pace. If you can set a goal, you can make easier choices.

2) Do an honest self assessment of your strengths and weaknesses. Then compare those to your goals.

3) Assess how much you care about other psychologist's opinions. That will be a factor.

If all of that fails, insist on calling other psychologists “nerds”.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Prestige can be helpful, but in most cases it isn't a deal breaker. If I had it all over i’d prob still attend the same type of training sites (VA internship, flagship R1 for fellowship yrs, & flagship R1 for a faculty job)...BUT I would have left sooner and never looked back. The grind is real, and getting paid less to do more is basically the M.O. at most places now.

I guess i’d recommend looking at your priorities (see above post), and then trying to be as objective as possible about the pros/cons of a “prestigious” place. Didactic training, zebra cases, and name recognition were high on my list back when I was training. Now I laugh at me from back then, but my path served me well.

 

[jblil]

OP - just a side note. In your original post, "cachet" (prestige, renown) is spelled with a "t" at the end. It's a French word which made its way into the English language. "Cache" is a feature of computer processors, and usually indicates a storage area that can be quickly accessed. As you make your way deeper into academia, I thought it'd be good to know the distinction between these two words.

(I grew up speaking French and worked in software for a long time - way too long).

 

[calvicorse]

It sounds like you were looking for information that confirmed what you already believed, despite several folks in here who are out in the field providing a different perspective based on experience.

As far as the VA, if you've done a practicum there, that may help a little, but it may be a tough road to get into the system, at least where I am. VAs in my area love to promote within and hire folks who've done internships/postdocs in VAs. I've done a VA practicum and it wasn't enough experience to get me an interview for a VA postdoc (I did a non-VA internship). The jobs I typically see at VAs in my area require 2+ years of licensure under your belt before you can even apply for a staff psychologist job, so you're looking at working elsewhere post-licensure for at least a few years before you can try to get into the system if you don't do a postdoc there. This may be region-specific, so it'd be good to hear from other folks in less crowded areas.

Touché, I appreciate you pointing out my blind spot on that one.

And to everyone else who has commented on this post, thank you very much from your interesting and well-informed perspectives. This helps. I think one part that's difficult is that i'm still not totally sure what I want to do and in what setting I'm trying to work, so I am trying to keep multiple doors open at once. I do know, however, that I probably want to work with mostly adults and maybe some adolescents, in a VA, PP, HMO, or other agency type of setting, mostly doing therapy. I guess the ideal world would be building up over time a cash-pay practice (so we didn't do 8+ years of higher ed to make 90k a year) OR perhaps getting a VA gig for base salary/benefits + doing a small PP on the side.

Oh, and @Ollie123, yes, I would have to move cities, which wouldn't be the end of the world but agree that all this moving is getting old...and I look forward to the day (hopefully soon!) where I can settle down in one spot, network, etc. But, if it's only one more year and it could have some important bearing on my career, I'd do it.

Regarding the point made about the VA positions requiring post-docs to have several years experience before they are eligible for a position @foreverbull, that is really important to know and I did not know that! In that case, what is the typical trajectory of most people who do post-docs at VAs? Do they often go work somewhere else a few years and then re-apply and get preferential treatment because they already have contacts? For reference, i'm talking about a place with a lot of competition for VA jobs (highly desirable loc).

 

[calvicorse]

Hello!

I am currently an intern and like many others on this site, will be starting to interview for post-docs in a few weeks. For some background about my situation before I get to my question, I attended a well-ranked PhD program in clinical psychology. However, although the program was at a solid research university, it didn’t have the impressive ‘name’ cachet of some school like say, Berkeley, Yale, etc. I plan on pursuing a clinical postdoc and career that mainly focuses on therapy and maybe some assessment. I am not sure exactly what I want to do yet long term, but I am considering a career (at least for a few years) at a VA—or other type of hospital setting—and then potentially moving into private practice sometime later down the line. If relevant to mention, I do have some prior VA experience from practica.

I bring up the topic of name “cachet” of program because although our field is a little weird in that many of the top research programs are from less well known schools (e.g., UNC chapel hill), I still believe that when moving into a clinical role, where you attended school seems to be relevant to patients. That is, if deciding between X and Y therapist, the patient may rather elect to see the provider with better credentials assuming they are better trained (similar to an MD, perhaps)--all else being equal. Of course, one could also make the point that the most relevant factor may be if you take the client's insurance -- but I digress. Perhaps I am making too much of an assumption here -- but I figured that having done your phd/internship/post-doc at some place with a very impressive name would be helpful in some capacity or another.

Now, to my question: In the coming weeks, I have several interviews for clinical postdocs at VAs, as well as AMCs at some prestigious institutions with good name recognition. Something I am torn about—and wanted to get others’ thoughts on—is whether it would be more beneficial for me to do a post-doc at some place with an impressive name so as to potentially attract future clients and have an edge over competition (e.g., if wanting to set up a cash only practice with wealthy/educated clients later on)– or whether it would make more sense to pursue a post-doc at a VA, where there is a higher chance that a post-doc might turn into a job offer.

I am pretty certain that if I did decide to go to the prestigious AMC, it would just be a post-doc, as I’m not trying to be an academic and they probably wouldn't invite me to join their staff, anyway. However, outside of our bubble of psychologists, I don’t think the VA has a particularly good reputation, and I am not sure how much it will help me attract clients (although I know the training is solid). Conversely, my understanding (please correct me if I’m wrong here) is that VAs tend to hire from within and often use post-doc as somewhat of a hiring mechanism—so I could see it being advantageous to do a post-doc at a VA in that it could lead to a job offer afterward.

Oh, lastly, the “fit” at both the AMC and the VA sites are similar for the post-doc (e.g., similar clinical emphases), so to me this isn’t really a question of “go where you want to get XYZ specialized training”.

FWIW, I actually turned down a PhD program with a more 'impressive name and reputation' to attend a program where my research interests were better aligned with my advisor. In retrospect, given that I didn't want to do research long-term, I wonder if that was a mistake, and I should've attended the more prestigious institution as it may have been more beneficial for me clinically. I am hoping to not make that "mistake" again.

Thank you for your thoughts!

OP - just a side note. In your original post, "cachet" (prestige, renown) is spelled with a "t" at the end. It's a French word which made its way into the English language. "Cache" is a feature of computer processors, and usually indicates a storage area that can be quickly accessed. As you make your way deeper into academia, I thought it'd be good to know the distinction between these two words.

(I grew up speaking French and worked in software for a long time - way too long).

Ha! Thanks, I actually thought it looked weird when I typed it

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Touché, I appreciate you pointing out my blind spot on that one.

And to everyone else who has commented on this post, thank you very much from your interesting and well-informed perspectives. This helps. I think one part that's difficult is that i'm still not totally sure what I want to do and in what setting I'm trying to work, so I am trying to keep multiple doors open at once. I do know, however, that I probably want to work with mostly adults and maybe some adolescents, in a VA, PP, HMO, or other agency type of setting, mostly doing therapy. I guess the ideal world would be building up over time a cash-pay practice (so we didn't do 8+ years of higher ed to make 90k a year) OR perhaps getting a VA gig for base salary/benefits + doing a small PP on the side.

Oh, and @Ollie123, yes, I would have to move cities, which wouldn't be the end of the world but agree that all this moving is getting old...and I look forward to the day (hopefully soon!) where I can settle down in one spot, network, etc. But, if it's only one more year and it could have some important bearing on my career, I'd do it.

Regarding the point made about the VA positions requiring post-docs to have several years experience before they are eligible for a position @foreverbull, that is really important to know and I did not know that! In that case, what is the typical trajectory of most people who do post-docs at VAs? Do they often go work somewhere else a few years and then re-apply and get preferential treatment because they already have contacts? For reference, i'm talking about a place with a lot of competition for VA jobs (highly desirable loc).

VA positions are really going to vary from site to site. If it's in a popular area, they're potentially going to be tough to get. That's where the additional experience could come in handy. But beyond that, I've known a large number of folks who went straight from internship or fellowship to a VA job. Part of that will depend on specialty, though.

I would say, at least in my experience, the typical trajectory for someone with a VA postdoc is to then take a VA staff position. The folks I know who didn't either ended up in an AMC or academia.

 

[singasongofjoy]

OP - just a side note. In your original post, "cachet" (prestige, renown) is spelled with a "t" at the end. It's a French word which made its way into the English language. "Cache" is a feature of computer processors, and usually indicates a storage area that can be quickly accessed. As you make your way deeper into academia, I thought it'd be good to know the distinction between these two words.

(I grew up speaking French and worked in software for a long time - way too long).

I also appreciate you making that distinction- thank you! I knew the difference between the two words pronounced, but did not know how to spell cachet as I can't recall having seen it written/in print. I have no background in French but my partner talks about software too much, lol. Thanks!

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I can only speak for my area of practice and location..but for me...prestige level of postdoc has meant nothing. I was accepted into five postdoc, two of which were typically referred to as "prestige" level. I chose one that was, however, just newly accepted into ABFP's accepted programs for board certification, but also one where I a. Knew the supervisor and was friends with him and b. Knew the quality of training I would receive (which was far beyond the quote unquote prestigious sites). At the end of the day what has mattered more is who I know back home where I practice in terms of referrals. I also wanted to get board certified as soon as possible, and also wanted to enjoy my postdoc year. Long story short, Don't put too much weight on the prestige factor.

 

[foreverbull]

Regarding the point made about the VA positions requiring post-docs to have several years experience before they are eligible for a position @foreverbull, that is really important to know and I did not know that! In that case, what is the typical trajectory of most people who do post-docs at VAs? Do they often go work somewhere else a few years and then re-apply and get preferential treatment because they already have contacts? For reference, i'm talking about a place with a lot of competition for VA jobs (highly desirable loc).

I think there might be some confusion, so I hope this clarifies it: you do a postdoc to get your hours to become licensed. Once licensed, you're eligible for staff psychologist jobs. At the VAs near me, they don't just hire "outsiders" as staff psychologists unless you've been licensed and working for at least a few years after you got licensed, but that depends on the area.

However, VA postdocs can be hired right away after completing the postdoc term as full-time staff psychologists (without any wait, as long as they get licensed), if there are positions available, and VAs strongly prefer to hire within. If you did a VA postdoc, I think you'd only have to wait if there are no positions available at VAs you wanted to work at. But if you did have to wait until something opened up, you'd still have a good chance of getting into the door with your VA postdoc and connections you made there. Main point being: a VA postdoc will open up doors to a VA job, whereas a non-VA postdoc may partially shut some doors in terms of VA careers, although some folks without VA experience do get into the VA system, especially if they have specialized training.

Good luck figuring things out!

 

[dynamicdog]

I do both therapy and assessments in PP and as others have said, very few people care about where you went to school. As said earlier, I've seen the doctoral degree itself get (positively) noticed since there are a lot of masters' level therapists out there, but that's about it in terms of patients questioning training. For me and others who have similar practices, having referral sources (schools, clinics, former supervisors, peers, etc.) is far more valuable, even in my very snobby, psychologically astute city.

 

[dynamicdog]

As I'm thinking about this, I feel like in some ways people may care/be more interested in where you went to undergraduate. Maybe because that information is more accessible to people (assuming they have B.A.s or some college experience)? Or that once you are at the doctoral level you are lumped into a fancy group that doesn't really get differentiated?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

As I'm thinking about this, I feel like in some ways people may care/be more interested in where you went to undergraduate. Maybe because that information is more accessible to people (assuming they have B.A.s or some college experience)? Or that once you are at the doctoral level you are lumped into a fancy group that doesn't really get differentiated?

My experiences (primarily in relatively smaller cities, and with somewhat more rural populations) have predominantly been that my patients seem, per their questions, to lump it together by just asking, "where'd you go to school" or, "where'd you do your training?" Our training path is a somewhat confusing one, and I imagine many folks initially think we do it all in one place.

 

[ClinicalABA]

None of my clients have ever asked me where I went to school or did internships, but my clients are 2-year-olds who typically aren’t speaking yet!

Having just searched for a therapist for a family member, I did pay attention to online info regarding where the potential therapist went to grad school. I don’t recall seeing info on internships. I definitely pay attention when I’m hiring/recruiting therapists.