Post-doc questions

[Neuromed13]

Hello all, I just started my internship but I have already began thinking (stressing) about post-doc as my options in the current location are very limited. When I applied to internship I had a fairly large geographic area and had several options. Ultimately I chose the one I did (by this I mean I ranked as #1) the place I knew my husband would have a good job as he would be forced to leave a good job at our home town and while he is very supportive, I also wouldn't want him to be miserable. Now, although I am very happy with my internship site for which I am the neuropsych intern (what I wanted), this site does not have a neuropsych post doc and there is only 1 other post doc in a 2 hour radius. My husband has made it clear that he wants to stay where we are and has opportunity to grow in his new job which he very much enjoys. I do have the possibility of completing an unofficial post-doc at a private practice. However, I really enjoy hospital work and I feel like a private practice would mean settling for a lot less than I know I can get. I also often hear that going this route is not as respected as doing a more formal post doc at a large medical setting (which is what I would like anyway). Thoughts on this? I am also secretly (although I intend to share this with my supervisors) hoping being hired as a full time employee and being treated as a "fellow" would be an option but I'm not entirely sure this is possible (I'm at a VA), I have seen several staff be hired after internship but none for neuropsych. I do intend to apply to the one available option but this is pretty high ranking site with a strong research component so I do not feel qualified as I am a PsyD and have about medium research experience (several posters, working on 1 manuscript but not sure it will be published by the time I have to apply). I do however enjoy clinical research which is what this site offers. Thoughts on what my real odds are? I was a fairly competitive intern candidate but was not offered interviews for the more research strong sites (Baylor neuro, MEDVAMC, Vanderbilt). Also, I have not discarded applying to places a couple hours away (I have at least 5 within 3-4 hours away) but I would truly not enjoy being away from my husband and dogs (I know silly) and it would also require us to pay for 2 places and spend a lot of money on gas. I think I would consider it if it was a year but given it's 2 years I'm a little (a lot) more hesitant. I welcome all thoughts and advice!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[summerbabe]

I do have the possibility of completing an unofficial post-doc at a private practice.

Do you want to continue with neuropsych as a fulltime career? I’m not a NP but I would think an informal/private practice postdoc would not meet board certification criteria so you’d be in an in-between state of having a good chunk of neuro experience but ethically probably shouldn’t call yourself a neuropsychologist. Or be hired onto institutional/hospital NP positions.

I am also secretly (although I intend to share this with my supervisors) hoping being hired as a full time employee and being treated as a "fellow" would be an option but I'm not entirely sure this is possible (I'm at a VA)

Lots of interns get hired on as a GS11 which will usually come with at least an hour of supervision a week to help meet licensure standards. However, your workload would be the same as a licensed staff psychologist and since you’d be hired into a very specifically defined clinical role (BHIP, PTSD, SUD, inpt, etc) opportunities for continued education and training will be secondary to your work duties, which you will have minimal autonomy over (e.g., you want to do some testing but get loaded up full with depression therapy cases).

I have seen several staff be hired after internship but none for neuropsych.

For every single VA neuropsych position, there may be 15-25 regular psychologist roles and in some places, neuropsych turnover is low so you’d have to wait for a current staff member to leave.

Additionally, most/probably all VAs require neuropsychologists to demonstrate competency in neuropsych when they are credentialed so being board certified in NP is the easiest route. Without that credentialing, some clinical tasks may be restricted (e.g., performing certain batteries) but there can be some variation depending on VA.

For somebody finishing internship, it might be possible to get a staff psychologist role that includes some assessment but I don’t think a just graduated intern would be eligible for any open VA neuropsych positions.

My husband has made it clear that he wants to stay where we are and has opportunity to grow in his new job which he very much enjoys.

It’s a really tough spot to balance training/career with family needs. Is he thinking about growth just over the next 1-3 years or long-term? Your window for training and neuropsych board certification is pretty narrow; how does that compare to his general career prospects? Has he made significant sacrifices while you’ve been in school so far? Would you two stick around this area beyond any training years or is the plan to relocate elsewhere once you’re totally done?

 

[Neuromed13]

Do you want to continue with neuropsych as a fulltime career? I’m not a NP but I would think an informal/private practice postdoc would not meet board certification criteria so you’d be in an in-between state of having a good chunk of neuro experience but ethically probably shouldn’t call yourself a neuropsychologist. Or be hired onto institutional/hospital NP positions.

Lots of interns get hired on as a GS11 which will usually come with at least an hour of supervision a week to help meet licensure standards. However, your workload would be the same as a licensed staff psychologist and since you’d be hired into a very specifically defined clinical role (BHIP, PTSD, SUD, inpt, etc) opportunities for continued education and training will be secondary to your work duties, which you will have minimal autonomy over (e.g., you want to do some testing but get loaded up full with depression therapy cases).

For every single VA neuropsych position, there may be 15-25 regular psychologist roles and in some places, neuropsych turnover is low so you’d have to wait for a current staff member to leave.

Additionally, most/probably all VAs require neuropsychologists to demonstrate competency in neuropsych when they are credentialed so being board certified in NP is the easiest route. Without that credentialing, some clinical tasks may be restricted (e.g., performing certain batteries) but there can be some variation depending on VA.

For somebody finishing internship, it might be possible to get a staff psychologist role that includes some assessment but I don’t think a just graduated intern would be eligible for any open VA neuropsych positions.

It’s a really tough spot to balance training/career with family needs. Is he thinking about growth just over the next 1-3 years or long-term? Your window for training and neuropsych board certification is pretty narrow; how does that compare to his general career prospects? Has he made significant sacrifices while you’ve been in school so far? Would you two stick around this area beyond any training years or is the plan to relocate elsewhere once you’re totally done?

Thanks for the response! RE the VA, that’s what I thought, it does sound pretty difficult to be hired as a neuropsychologist not being a neuropsychologist and on top on not being fully trained NEEDING training. I’m really not open to taking any other staff position as this would likely not allow me to do the required training for board certification :/

My husband has been very supportive during my training, he has supported (financially) me and the dogs throughout grad and the end of undergrad. He’s also helped me prep for things and cheer me on so I really can’t complain. He’s also been the the Guinness pig for about every assessment I have learned. His position is in a new and growing location from his company so given there aren’t many people here he will be able to grow rather quickly and his boss has expressed that this is the plan. We also want to stay here so even if we left for post doc we would come back but then his opportunity would likely be gone since they’d have to put someone else there for those 2 years.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Unfortunately, it sounds like your options RE: a path forward in neuropsychology are fairly limited. The ability to check all the fellowship boxes necessary for board certification (and just competent practice in neuropsychology more broadly) while working as a full-time staff member would likely be close to nil. There are some VAs that are more lax about requirements for neuropsych positions than others, but at this point, most job postings I've seen require or strongly prefer a two-year fellowship. Personally, I also wouldn't want to work at a VA that would hire an applicant straight out of internship to practice as a neuropsychologist, as this can also let on how the service/VA views neuropsychology as a whole (e.g., that essentially any psychologist can practice neuropsychology). Beyond that, while working, you'd also need to be receiving neuropsych-focused supervision, attending neuropsych-focused didactics (or similar experiences), and participating in neuropsych research in order to be board-eligible. That's a tough sell while handling a full-time clinical load.

It sounds like your best bets would be to apply to the one nearby site and at least a few of the sites a few hours away (which, I know, would make for a very difficulty two years), and/or to consider the informal private practice postdoc route. I almost never recommend the latter, not because it isn't viewed as highly as a formal postdoc (which is generally true), but because the training can be much more scattershot. Your rights as a trainee may not be as strongly protected and the training opportunities themselves (particularly relating to didactics and research) may be much more limited. But if the goal is board certification in neuropsych, that would seem the better path than taking a GS11 staff position and hoping you can somehow turn that into an impromptu fellowship-type experience.

It is possible for an informal private practice postdoc to meet criteria for board certification, it'll just potentially take more legwork on your part. I'd encourage you to familiarize yourself with the board certification specialty requirements for neuropsych so that you'll know ahead of time what types of experiences you may need to add on to an informal fellowship (rather than having to scramble at the end of postdoc).

 

[WisNeuro]

An unofficial PP postdoc does not necessarily preclude one from board certification...but it does make it much harder. As we've detailed before, you have to be meticulous about documenting things like supervision and training experiences. You would likely also have to do a lot of didactic training outside of this informal postdoc, as most do not really include this element at all. You;d also have to find a way to demonstrate research competencies. So, not impossible, just far more difficult than if you did an actual neuropsych postdoc.

I see AA responded as I am typing this. Yeah, you will likely not find any VA that will hire you out of internship into a a neuropsych position. I also would not like to work at such a place. There is usually a lot of competition for the limited amount of neuropsych spots at a VA that they would likely have far better applicants at all but the most undesirable locations.

I second AA's recommendation that I would rather commute a decent distance, than take an informal postdoc if a neuropsych career/board certification was in my plans. I'd rather have a rough couple years, than a rough entire career.

 

[Neuromed13]

Thank you all for the insight, as I was writing my post yesterday I realised the VA route does not sound quite plausible as you both pointed out even if it was, it would likely be lacking in quality of training. With the private practice, I'm aware I'd be pretty much responsible for all of my training and although the neuropsychologist that would hire me is very supportive and I know she would do whatever is in her power to make sure I have a productive post-doc, I'm not sure she can meet all the requirements. Although I'm very familiar with the board requirements I don't think I would wanna risk getting insufficient training and then fall in that grey area of calling myself a neuropsychologist without proper training. I highly value my family but WisNeuro is right it is better to have a couple rough years than a whole miserable career, specially if I end up not being able to practice as a neuropsychologist.

Related to this, I have another question, in my frantic search for all possible fellowships I found one in a a neighboring state and it would actually just be an hour drive. However, I have noticed that the 3 options I have somewhat near by all hired a post doc last year. None of the descriptions mention if they offer the position yearly or every other year. Should I assume that they will not be hiring a new post doc until 2024 when this year's fellows finish their training? If so can you let me know if some post docs that offer positions yearly (or are due to offer one next year) in the South east area? Thanks!!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thank you all for the insight, as I was writing my post yesterday I realised the VA route does not sound quite plausible as you both pointed out even if it was, it would likely be lacking in quality of training. With the private practice, I'm aware I'd be pretty much responsible for all of my training and although the neuropsychologist that would hire me is very supportive and I know she would do whatever is in her power to make sure I have a productive post-doc, I'm not sure she can meet all the requirements. Although I'm very familiar with the board requirements I don't think I would wanna risk getting insufficient training and then fall in that grey area of calling myself a neuropsychologist without proper training. I highly value my family but WisNeuro is right it is better to have a couple rough years than a whole miserable career, specially if I end up not being able to practice as a neuropsychologist.

Related to this, I have another question, in my frantic search for all possible fellowships I found one in a a neighboring state and it would actually just be an hour drive. However, I have noticed that the 3 options I have somewhat near by all hired a post doc last year. None of the descriptions mention if they offer the position yearly or every other year. Should I assume that they will not be hiring a new post doc until 2024 when this year's fellows finish their training? If so can you let me know if some post docs that offer positions yearly (or are due to offer one next year) in the South east area? Thanks!!

The best way to find out if a fellowship will be taking on a fellow for the upcoming training cycle is probably to email the DCT. If the fellowship is an APPCN member and/or is listed on the Division 40 website (which are both great resources for searching for fellowships, btw), it often lists how many fellows they have.

Off the top of my head RE: fellowships in the southeast, depending on what part of the southeast, I can think of UF, Emory, UAB, MCG/Augusta, and Shepherd Center (Atlanta). Methodist Rehab/UMC in Jackson had a fellowship, but I'm not sure if it's still active. If you're willing to go farther south in FL, there are a couple other neuropsych fellowships around Miami, Orlando, and possibly Tampa. If you aren't already on the NPsych listserv, that can also be a good place to see position announcements for fellowships.

I'm almost positive that's not an exhaustive list, just what immediately came to mind.

 

[Neuromed13]

The best way to find out if a fellowship will be taking on a fellow for the upcoming training cycle is probably to email the DCT. If the fellowship is an APPCN member and/or is listed on the Division 40 website (which are both great resources for searching for fellowships, btw), it often lists how many fellows they have.

Off the top of my head RE: fellowships in the southeast, depending on what part of the southeast, I can think of UF, Emory, UAB, MCG/Augusta, and Shepherd Center (Atlanta). Methodist Rehab/UMC in Jackson had a fellowship, but I'm not sure if it's still active. If you're willing to go farther south in FL, there are a couple other neuropsych fellowships around Miami, Orlando, and possibly Tampa. If you aren't already on the NPsych listserv, that can also be a good place to see position announcements for fellowships.

I'm almost positive that's not an exhaustive list, just what immediately came to mind.

Thank you! That’s really helpful. I’m definitely not going to Florida, this is where I’m origainlly from and not going back hahha. The other ones I probably plan on applying to if they do offer a position next year! The listserv is a good idea, do you know how I can join?

 

[WisNeuro]

Society for Clinical Neuropsychology – Division 40 of the American Psychological Association

scn40.org

APPCN – Association of Postdoctoral Progams in Clinical Neuropsychology

appcn.org

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thank you! That’s really helpful. I’m definitely not going to Florida, this is where I’m origainlly from and not going back hahha. The other ones I probably plan on applying to if they do offer a position next year! The listserv is a good idea, do you know how I can join?

Looks like WisNeuro already posted the links for APPCN and SCN. For the NPsych listserv, if you Google something similar to "npsych neuropsychology listserv," it should pull up a website that has instructions on how to request to join.

 

[Neuromed13]

Looks like WisNeuro already posted the links for APPCN and SCN. For the NPsych listserv, if you Google something similar to "npsych neuropsychology listserv," it should pull up a website that has instructions on how to request to join.

Thanks! I’m already an SCN member but I will definitely look into joining the nosy house listserv 😊

 

[szymk1sm]

To add to the neuropsych fellowship list in the southeast (that aren't in FL) that I can think of offhand .... U Kentucky, MUSC, Vanderbilt Neurology (though there's a heavy research component), U Tenn Medical Center (in Knoxville), Memphis VA, U Arkansas Medical Center, Central Arkansas VA, UAB...

 

[Neuromed13]

To add to the neuropsych fellowship list in the southeast (that aren't in FL) that I can think of offhand .... U Kentucky, MUSC, Vanderbilt Neurology (though there's a heavy research component), U Tenn Medical Center (in Knoxville), Memphis VA, U Arkansas Medical Center, Central Arkansas VA, UAB...

Hi, I looked at U Kentucky and I actually really like that program. I would probably say it’d be my preference. Do you know anything about it? I think I’ll likely also apply to Vanderbilt (not sure of my chance here), UT Knoxville, Memphis VA, and UAB. I gotta look into MUSC and Arkansa Medical. Thanks so much.

 

[szymk1sm]

Hi, I looked at U Kentucky and I actually really like that program. I would probably say it’d be my preference. Do you know anything about it? I think I’ll likely also apply to Vanderbilt (not sure of my chance here), UT Knoxville, Memphis VA, and UAB. I gotta look into MUSC and Arkansa Medical. Thanks so much.

I looked at U Kentucky when I did my own postdoc search a few years ago - impressed with the program but ultimately did not apply so I can't say much. I have some insight into Vanderbilt and UAB, so feel free to reach out later if you decide to apply to either. The other sites are all well-respected (really any large VA or AMC will be, generally), but I have less first hand knowledge of their neuropsych training.

*Edited to add that Vanderbilt Neurology is friendly towards PsyD's - basing this on some of their past neuropsych fellows being PsyD's.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Hi, I looked at U Kentucky and I actually really like that program. I would probably say it’d be my preference. Do you know anything about it? I think I’ll likely also apply to Vanderbilt (not sure of my chance here), UT Knoxville, Memphis VA, and UAB. I gotta look into MUSC and Arkansa Medical. Thanks so much.

To add to the above, I don't know much about UK's postdoc specifically, but the program as a whole as a very good reputation, so I'd suspect their fellowship is strong.

I know MUSC/Charleston Consortium has an internship, but I didn't know they'd developed a fellowship yet. Or maybe I did see that somewhere and forgot. Either way, MUSC is well-regarded overall, as is UAB (and Birmingham can be a surprisingly entertaining city). Memphis VA has well-known folks on staff. I don't know as much about the fellowships at UT, Central Arkansas (although I know folks who've applied there), or the U of Arkansas MC.

 

[Neuromed13]

To add to the above, I don't know much about UK's postdoc specifically, but the program as a whole as a very good reputation, so I'd suspect their fellowship is strong.

I know MUSC/Charleston Consortium has an internship, but I didn't know they'd developed a fellowship yet. Or maybe I did see that somewhere and forgot. Either way, MUSC is well-regarded overall, as is UAB (and Birmingham can be a surprisingly entertaining city). Memphis VA has well-known folks on staff. I don't know as much about the fellowships at UT, Central Arkansas (although I know folks who've applied there), or the U of Arkansas MC.

Thank you. I hadn’t heard anything about UK until I stumbled upon it and it seems pretty strong. A lot of diagnostic variety and fun rotations with some nice didactics. The staff also seem to have good training. I know the Memphis VA and UAB also have great training but are a little further away as are the rest of the ones mentioned but I think I’m gonna take most of them into consideration and apply then see what comes out of it. I think if I don’t I’ll always wonder *what would’ve happened*

 

[szymk1sm]

To add to the above, I don't know much about UK's postdoc specifically, but the program as a whole as a very good reputation, so I'd suspect their fellowship is strong.

I know MUSC/Charleston Consortium has an internship, but I didn't know they'd developed a fellowship yet. Or maybe I did see that somewhere and forgot. Either way, MUSC is well-regarded overall, as is UAB (and Birmingham can be a surprisingly entertaining city). Memphis VA has well-known folks on staff. I don't know as much about the fellowships at UT, Central Arkansas (although I know folks who've applied there), or the U of Arkansas MC.

I'm thinking of two colleagues who did their postdocs at MUSC and it's quite possible they were more geared towards research (along with clinical training) and were not APPCN. These people are both board-certified now, so I assume the fellowship(s) have the appropriate training (plus their grad school and internship sites were also neuropsych strong so they had a good foundation going into postdoc).

OP, you may have to do a little digging outside of looking at the neuropsych listservs to see if MUSC has neuropsych fellowship opportunities.

 

[Neuromed13]

I'm thinking of two colleagues who did their postdocs at MUSC and it's quite possible they were more geared towards research (along with clinical training) and were not APPCN. These people are both board-certified now, so I assume the fellowship(s) have the appropriate training (plus their grad school and internship sites were also neuropsych strong so they had a good foundation going into postdoc).

OP, you may have to do a little digging outside of looking at the neuropsych listservs to see if MUSC has neuropsych fellowship opportunities.

I did do some research and found they have several post docs but none in Neuropsych from what I saw. They are the furthest away though so I’m not too mad about that hahah.

I should also mention I’m also open (actually would be highly preferable) to rehab sites that offer 2 year fellowships with opportunity for at least 50% Neuropsych.

 

[ccpsych16]

OP, I’m not neuropsych, but I have and will continue to live apart from my partner for the foreseeable future. To be frank, it does suck, but it’s not the worst thing in the world. Many, many psychology trainees do LDR for 1-2 years because the nature of our profession requires frequent upheavals. This also applies to folks trying to get established in academia. Many of my professors discussed being long distance for multiple years until they were established and could move somewhere beneficial. Same applies for medical students/residents. You are by far not alone in having to make that decision. I’m glad you’re exploring many opportunities in other areas. I wouldn’t want you to limit yourself to a less desirable option career wise just to stay in the same place. Best of luck!

 

[Cantab109]

I was in a similar situation and did two years long distance from my partner (about 3 hours away). Fellowship was such a cluster and often was 12 hour days, that I was thankful to often come home to my own place to just space out and fall asleep. Weekends were that much more of a break having him in town. One consideration to think about is if you or your partner can do any remote work. I've heard of fellowships that may allow a half day or full day of research/writing that can be done from home, that could you give a bit more time together, and vice versa if he has any flexibility. But otherwise yes, there are limited alternatives. Moving your partner for a 1 year internship knowing fellowship is on the horizon is always a very risky move. I will also add that if you want board certification (which is sounds like you do which is why you're having this dilemma), a formal post-doc at an AMC with all boarded supervisors I feel prepared me for boarding way better than a PP would, because we have the benefit of didactics, seminars, practice orals, practice writing samples, etc. that is hard to come by in PP.

 

[Neuromed13]

OP, I’m not neuropsych, but I have and will continue to live apart from my partner for the foreseeable future. To be frank, it does suck, but it’s not the worst thing in the world. Many, many psychology trainees do LDR for 1-2 years because the nature of our profession requires frequent upheavals. This also applies to folks trying to get established in academia. Many of my professors discussed being long distance for multiple years until they were established and could move somewhere beneficial. Same applies for medical students/residents. You are by far not alone in having to make that decision. I’m glad you’re exploring many opportunities in other areas. I wouldn’t want you to limit yourself to a less desirable option career wise just to stay in the same place. Best of luck!

Thank you! I have seen many of my friends do it so I know it is not impossible. It's just so hard having lived together for the part 4-5 years and then being on my own. Nonetheless, I really do care about my career and it will pay off in the end. Thanks for the support!

 

[Neuromed13]

I was in a similar situation and did two years long distance from my partner (about 3 hours away). Fellowship was such a cluster and often was 12 hour days, that I was thankful to often come home to my own place to just space out and fall asleep. Weekends were that much more of a break having him in town. One consideration to think about is if you or your partner can do any remote work. I've heard of fellowships that may allow a half day or full day of research/writing that can be done from home, that could you give a bit more time together, and vice versa if he has any flexibility. But otherwise yes, there are limited alternatives. Moving your partner for a 1 year internship knowing fellowship is on the horizon is always a very risky move. I will also add that if you want board certification (which is sounds like you do which is why you're having this dilemma), a formal post-doc at an AMC with all boarded supervisors I feel prepared me for boarding way better than a PP would, because we have the benefit of didactics, seminars, practice orals, practice writing samples, etc. that is hard to come by in PP.

Yes, I do want to pursue board certification although at minimum I really wanna follow the ethical guidelines for calling myself a neuropsychologist and a more formal post-doc would definitely help me do that. I didn't think about the remote option. I will make sure to ask about that when I apply and ask my husband what his options for remote work at least once a week would be. He used to do a lot of remote work in his previous job. Thanks a lot for the advice

 

[PsychPhDMama]

I feel for you. I have done the long-distance thing and it is hard. My husband has also sacrificed beyond reason for my education. I’m not in neuropsych so no idea if this is helpful. I’ve seen people stay on at the VA for additional training without pay to check all the boxes for licensure without the commitment of a postdoc. The absence of pay sucks, but just throwing it out there.