Frogger27

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How much weight do stats play post II? EC's?

If granted an II, is the acceptance based mainly on the interview?
 

eteshoe

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Stats+ECs+Application -> II

Interview+fit -> acceptance
 
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Frogger27

Frogger27

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Stats+ECs+Application -> II

Interview+fit -> acceptance
This is what I have always thought, but some people I have talked to think that stats still play a large role post II
 

Cotterpin

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I have always been under the impression that they consider the entire application when they make the final decision to accept, but I'm sure every school does it a little differently. I know somebody's got a graphic from the AAMC somewhere that shows how different elements of an application are ranked in importance before and after the interview.
 
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Frogger27

Frogger27

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He's wrong. It is EC + stats + app = II

EC + stats + app + interview + fit = Acceptance
So essentially once II is offered, stats become close to a non-factor (unless there is something out of ordinary like a courtesy II). Interview + Fit = acceptance?
 

salemstein

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Depends on school IMO. I think of it this way: for acceptance, you have to be above a certain "rank" among all applicants. EC+stats+essay+LoR determines your pre-II rank and qualifies you for an II. The interview is a chance for you to drastically change that rank.
 
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eteshoe

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This is what I have always thought, but some people I have talked to think that stats still play a large role post II
I didn't mean that stats aren't considered post interview, just that you won't be offered an interview if your stats don't meet the minimum threshold and thus you should focus on making sure you do well in your interviews. The caveat being that this was my take from my MD/PhD applications but I feel that the logic should transfer over
 

gonnif

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So essentially once II is offered, stats become close to a non-factor (unless there is something out of ordinary like a courtesy II). Interview + Fit = acceptance?
No they still matter. I will give you an example that does not apply to any specific medical school but illustrates how the concept of evaluation is "mechanically" applied to the admission process. Also @LizzyM "stair case" example is another way to think about it

Imagine that all parts of your application; stats, EC (grouped in classes by various medical schools) . Essays, Secondary, are read, reviewed, evaluated and broken down in essentially a scoring system that assigns a value for each part. While the criteria a reader is looking for in each part is different, they essentially boil down to classifications from Outstanding, Superior, Above Average, Average ,Below Average, subpar, unqualified. So score from 6 to 0. Academic metric may scored separately or together as combination of GPA, MCAT, grade trends, selectivity of institution, etc. or perhaps they do that separately. Lets say your GPA is scored above average (4) your MCAT was also above average so a 4, but they give you an additional point for upward grade trend and one for selective undergraduate school. So out of 12 points you get 10 for academic metric. Lets say your ECs have good patient contact hours/experience, community service, leadership, research so 5 out of 6. PS is well expressed, show motivation, commitment, desire, it gets 4. So out of 24 you get 19. Secondary may get say 10 of 12. so you now have 29 of 36, consider this number your interview priority and get interviewed first wave. You do only so-so with both interviewers and you get 4 by each of them, for 8 of 12. Often there will something will call "bonus points" (ie peace corp, veteran, prestigious fellowship) point max is 50.

So you have 37 out of 50 points. That is your priority/evaluation when the adcom does a final review. Each adcom member may not have read your application but they will now see your "sheet" which can referred to as cover sheet, summary, review, evaluation, scoring, which will include comments from all the reader, interviewers, evaluators. This is where then will refer to parts of the application in questions, comments from readers, interviewers and vote for acceptance or rejection. WL is not typically voted directly rather, but your score is now your acceptance priority. our of the few to several hundred accepted, acceptance may be first sent out to the highest 200 scores first with WL to the next set. If you have been accepted but have a lower score, you may get a WL initially.

So to answer the OPs question, everything still matters but obviously the ratio and balance changes and the scoring system is as much a priority for when you get reviewed for admissions as it is evaluation. The committee that votes will still be arguing subjective on the merits of the applicant. And unlike the myth that many students have, there is virtually no time when applicants are directly compared, nor are the individual pieces (such as GPA and MCAT) are compared.

I would also like to add that generally your GPA and MCAT are reviewed 3 times in 3 different ways (this is for those questions on those who have multiple MCAT scores). The initial review when your primary first shows up, usually takes the highest score, particularly for screened secondaries. Second when your academic metric is being looked over, here they are more likely to average. And finally at the final admissions review where it becomes more subjective about the candidate.
 
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Frogger27

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No they still matter. I will give you an example that does not apply to any specific medical school but illustrates how the concept of evaluation is "mechanically" applied to the admission process. Also @LizzyM "stair case" example is another way to think about it

Imagine that all parts of your application; stats, EC (grouped in classes by various medical schools) . Essays, Secondary, are read, reviewed, evaluated and broken down in essentially a scoring system that assigns a value for each part. While the criteria a reader is looking for in each part is different, they essentially boil down to classifications from Outstanding, Superior, Above Average, Average ,Below Average, subpar, unqualified. So score from 6 to 0. Academic metric may scored separately or together as combination of GPA, MCAT, grade trends, selectivity of institution, etc. or perhaps they do that separately. Lets say your GPA is scored above average (4) your MCAT was also above average so a 4, but they give you an additional point for upward grade trend and one for selective undergraduate school. So out of 12 points you get 10 for academic metric. Lets say your ECs have good patient contact hours/experience, community service, leadership, research so 5 out of 6. PS is well expressed, show motivation, commitment, desire, it gets 4. So out of 24 you get 19. Secondary may get say 10 of 12. so you now have 29 of 36, consider this number your interview priority and get interviewed first wave. You do only so-so with both interviewers and you get 4 by each of them, for 8 of 12. Often there will something will call "bonus points" (ie peace corp, veteran, prestigious fellowship) point max is 50.

So you have 37 out of 50 points. That is your priority/evaluation when the adcom does a final review. Each adcom member may not have read your application but they will now see your "sheet" which can referred to as cover sheet, summary, review, evaluation, scoring, which will include comments from all the reader, interviewers, evaluators. This is where then will refer to parts of the application in questions, comments from readers, interviewers and vote for acceptance or rejection. WL is not typically voted directly rather, but your score is now your acceptance priority. our of the few to several hundred accepted, acceptance may be first sent out to the highest 200 scores first with WL to the next set. If you have been accepted but have a lower score, you may get a WL initially.

So to answer the OPs question, everything still matters but obviously the ratio and balance changes and the scoring system is as much a priority for when you get reviewed for admissions as it is evaluation. The committee that votes will still be arguing subjective on the merits of the applicant. And unlike the myth that many students have, there is virtually no time when applicants are directly compared, nor are the individual pieces (such as GPA and MCAT) are compared.

I would also like to add that generally your GPA and MCAT are reviewed 3 times in 3 different ways (this is for those questions on those who have multiple MCAT scores). The initial review when your primary first shows up, usually takes the highest score, particularly for screened secondaries. Second when your academic metric is being looked over, here they are more likely to average. And finally at the final admissions review where it becomes more subjective about the candidate.
@gonnif Thank you for the very detailed response! My question was meant to help us candidates with lower stats who have gotten II's at some schools where we are significantly lower than their averages (the 10th percentile crew). There seems to be a myth that once an II is given, we are all at a level playing field. Guess we have to crush the interview!
 
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Goro

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If you're a borderline candidate, stats might very well come into the conversation at the Adcom meeting. I've seen plenty end where one member said "Nice guy/gal, but I'm worried about hat sGPA".



How much weight do stats play post II? EC's?

If granted an II, is the acceptance based mainly on the interview?
 
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Frogger27

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If you're a borderline candidate, stats might very well come into the conversation at the Adcom meeting. I've seen plenty end where one member said "Nice guy/gal, but I'm worried about hat sGPA".
I would hope that if something like an MCAT or sGPA was a concern the II would not be offered. But then again, if the applications are continuously reviewed holistically then maybe one Adcom member has a problem with it while another does not.
 

LizzyM

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I would hope that if something like an MCAT or sGPA was a concern the II would not be offered. But then again, if the applications are continuously reviewed holistically then maybe one Adcom member has a problem with it while another does not.
Sometimes there is the hope that someone with borderline stats will blow us away in the interview. It has happened. Usually someone with borderline stats has something else on the application that would contribute to the diversity of the class (not just URM but veteran status, disability (but meeting technical standards), disadvantage, under-represented geographic region, career changer, etc).
 

medbunny56

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If you're a borderline candidate, stats might very well come into the conversation at the Adcom meeting. I've seen plenty end where one member said "Nice guy/gal, but I'm worried about hat sGPA".
what range of sGPA would be reasonable for them to be "worried" about
 

Goro

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gonnif

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Sometimes there is the hope that someone with borderline stats will blow us away in the interview. It has happened. Usually someone with borderline stats has something else on the application that would contribute to the diversity of the class (not just URM but veteran status, disability (but meeting technical standards), disadvantage, under-represented geographic region, career changer, etc).
what range of sGPA would be reasonable for them to be "worried" about
It is also helped by the movement to holistic reviews and GPA/MCAT data that backs it up; 94% of those with GPA 3.2 and under and MCAT 29 and under graduated from medical school within in 5 years. (see chart p49)

https://www.aamc.org/download/434596/data/usingmcatdata2016.pdf
 

UserUnidentified420

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Depends on school IMO. I think of it this way: for acceptance, you have to be above a certain "rank" among all applicants. EC+stats+essay+LoR determines your pre-II rank and qualifies you for an II. The interview is a chance for you to drastically change that rank.
Personal experience says this is true. Gotta love them interviews :)
 

LizzyM

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JJRousseau

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Agreed. At my school it would be under 3.4.
Just out of curiosity, (and admittedly getting a bit off topic), but does the undergraduate institution's reputation for GPA reliability impact this worry zone? To get back on topic, is the undergrad (and let's bring course load difficulty into the mix as well) more of consideration, if at all, pre-interview or post-interview? I'm asking because I noticed that while we faced organic exams with multiple synthesis problems (start at compound A with access to X set of compounds and get to compound B with name of reaction and reagents), each a fifth of the exam, several of my friends at other Universities had completely multiple choice organic chemistry exams? Personally, I thought the synthesis problems were more fun anyways, but still, I'm curious.

EDIT. grammer.
 

LizzyM

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Just out of curiosity, (and admittedly getting a bit off topic), but does the undergraduate institution's reputation for GPA reliability impact this worry zone? To get back on topic, is the undergrad (and let's bring course load difficulty into the mix as well) more of consideration, if at all, pre-interview or post-interview? I'm asking because I noticed that while we faced organic exams with multiple synthesis problems (start at compound A with access to X set of compounds and get to compound B with name of reaction and reagents), each a fifth of the exam, several of my friends at other Universities had completely multiple choice organic chemistry exams? Personally, I thought the synthesis problems were more fun anyways, but still, I'm curious.

EDIT. grammer.
:confused:

We are speaking big picture here.... typical applicant, interviewed despite a low GPA. Gets a pretty good review from each interviewer. Goes to committee for discussion. Someone is going to bring up GPA and say, "I am worried about someone with this GPA being able to manage here." Now someone might say, "Oh but he was a __ major and you know how hard that is and he took __ which is a real killer and he's at ___ University, which is notorious for grad deflation so I think we should cut him some slack; he'll be fine." And a few more will chime in pro and con before the chair calls for a vote on the applicant. I've never seen it get into the type of exams given at a specific school in a specific course.
 
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JJRousseau

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:confused:

We are speaking big picture here.... typical applicant, interviewed despite a low GPA. Gets a pretty review from each interviewer. Goes to committee for discussion. Someone is going to bring up GPA and say, "I am worried about someone with this GPA being able to manage here." Now someone might say, "Oh but he was a __ major and you know how hard that is and he took __ which is a real killer and he's at ___ University, which is notorious for grad deflation so I think we should cut him some slack; he'll be fine." And a few more will chime in pro and con before the chair calls for a vote on the applicant. I've never seen it get into the type of exams given at a specific school in a specific course.

I was using the exam form as an example to illustrate the magnitude of the differential in difficulty, I wouldn't expect such a detailed discussion to take place. Your response was very helpful though, and answered my question. Thanks!
 

LizzyM

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If an applicant's GPA is not below average for a top school's matriculants and is approximately average (e.g. 3.8), but comes from an institution known to be very rigorous with grade deflation, would that applicant still get that special 'slack' even if he/she would technically be okay regardless of his or her institution?
Do you have critical thinking skills? Do you think that any adcom member worries that an applicant will not do well in medical school because they have a 3.88 from Princeton or UChicago?
 
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Sister goes to UChicago. The struggle is so real there...
 
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At one school I interviewed at we were told explicitly during the presentation their decision was about 50% interview 50% the rest of the app.
 
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