Post-tax investment advice for dummies (Me)

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

Ok, first off, I’m the dummy so don’t think I’m giving any pointers here. But I have some questions (I’ve searched the forum but most threads are way over my head).

So I’m trying to get into a good habit from the start but I’m not sure I’m doing it right. My question revolves around post-tax, or “taxable” accounts.

Here is my current scenario;

Max 401k (pre-tax) to 18.5k
Take employer match
Max HSA
(Reduce taxable income a bit and take free money)

But then what?

I’m currently just maxing the 401k “contribution from all sources” up to the 55k limit, most of this is with post-tax dollars.

Does this make sense? I hear people talking about the back door roth, which I interpret to mean I’d roll some of my post tax contributions into a Roth IRA and pay only the taxes on the gains those post tax contributions had made while in the 401k.

The tax free gains in the Roth sound great, but is there a catch? I.e why wouldn’t I just roll my let’s say 30k post tax 401k contributions into a Roth every year? Or can you only roll in $5500 into the Roth even using the back door?

Finally, let’s say I want to put another 30k away, after the 55k 401k max, should I just open an individual brokerage account of some sort and pick some other index funds for diversification? Or, if I have this cash as a lump sum, do I use that to do the back door Roth so there isn’t any gains to be taxed at all?

Basically, I’m trying to just figure out a strategy where I throw as much money as I can afford into a passive investment of some type, so I’m asking the seasoned gurus the best strategy for my simple mind.

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[IDGARA]

It sounds like you're setting yourself up for what the Madfientist calls the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA.

The old school Backdoor Roth is pure post taxt money independent of your 401k. You put $5500 into a traditional IRA on January 1st and then roll it over at least a day later, into the Roth IRA. Just make sure you don't have any money left over in the Traditional IRA after the rollover.

To answer the last question, yes. Once you've maxed out tax advantaged accounts, anything left over just through into VTI in your taxable account.

 

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

It sounds like you're setting yourself up for what the Madfientist calls the Mega Backdoor Roth IRA.

The old school Backdoor Roth is pure post taxt money independent of your 401k. You put $5500 into a traditional IRA on January 1st and then roll it over at least a day later, into the Roth IRA. Just make sure you don't have any money left over in the Traditional IRA after the rollover.

To answer the last question, yes. Once you've maxed out tax advantaged accounts, anything left over just through into VTI in your taxable account.

So I guess that’s the root of my question, let’s say I just put $5500 into an IRA then do the Backdoor Roth annually, and then in addition to all the pre-tax accounts I have let’s say 50-60k to invest; do I max out my 401k up to 55k in total and then the left over 20-30k into a taxable account or do I just put the whole 50-60k post tax amount into a taxable account? Or does it matter at all one way or the other?

 

[IDGARA]

It all depends.

Whats the money for, purely retirement or might you need it at some point before then?
Are your investment options in the 401k as good as you would find in a taxable account at Vanguard?

To be honest, the mega backdoor Roth is not something I've had experience with, just something that I saw mentioned at some point. If it is as good as it sounds (that you could increase you Roth contributions an extra $30,000 a year), and your 401k custodian allows the in-service withdrawals, then you should max your 401k contributions and then roll it into the Roth IRA. Then whatever money is left over you put into the taxable account each year.

If those two assumptions are not true, then just throw all of your extra money in to the taxable account.

 

[anbuitachi]

It's sad how much of salary goes to taxes with not many ways to lower it

 

[facted]

May I suggest real estate? I know it's not for everyone, but it's great for a diversified portfolio and the tax breaks are great for high income individuals (depreciation, maintenance, etc...)

 

[narcotics999]

Some government hospitals or academic centers provide DCP (457b), another 18k pretax

 

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

So, eventually I’ll end up with some real estate, but that won’t be until loans are paid off. I’m still in the not sure where I’ll end up stage.

 

[anbuitachi]

May I suggest real estate? I know it's not for everyone, but it's great for a diversified portfolio and the tax breaks are great for high income individuals (depreciation, maintenance, etc...)

I see how you can deduct but isn't it bad when houses are depreciating? Dont you want it to go the other way? I dont owe a house so i dont' know much about it but how much maintenance are you doing? Friend of mine thinking of buying a 1 br 1 bath apartment instead of an apartment since mortgage is slightly more than rent. It's like 500k. But like how much maintenance can you do on it a year. What are you counting as maintenance??

 

[facted]

I see how you can deduct but isn't it bad when houses are depreciating? Dont you want it to go the other way? I dont owe a house so i dont' know much about it but how much maintenance are you doing? Friend of mine thinking of buying a 1 br 1 bath apartment instead of an apartment since mortgage is slightly more than rent. It's like 500k. But like how much maintenance can you do on it a year. What are you counting as maintenance??

The price of the house may be appreciating, but you can deduct the house depreciation over time:
Tax Savings: Rental Property Depreciation Explained

As for maintenance, it can include anything that you do to keep the house liveable and with a tenant including advertising, for example.

Generally, a good property can yield a solid 6-8% depending on a host of factors and can be a great way to gain some passive income and portfolio diversification.

 

[abolt18]

Ok, first off, I’m the dummy so don’t think I’m giving any pointers here. But I have some questions (I’ve searched the forum but most threads are way over my head).

So I’m trying to get into a good habit from the start but I’m not sure I’m doing it right. My question revolves around post-tax, or “taxable” accounts.

Here is my current scenario;

Max 401k (pre-tax) to 18.5k
Take employer match
Max HSA
(Reduce taxable income a bit and take free money)

But then what?

I’m currently just maxing the 401k “contribution from all sources” up to the 55k limit, most of this is with post-tax dollars.

Does this make sense? I hear people talking about the back door roth, which I interpret to mean I’d roll some of my post tax contributions into a Roth IRA and pay only the taxes on the gains those post tax contributions had made while in the 401k.

The tax free gains in the Roth sound great, but is there a catch? I.e why wouldn’t I just roll my let’s say 30k post tax 401k contributions into a Roth every year? Or can you only roll in $5500 into the Roth even using the back door?

Finally, let’s say I want to put another 30k away, after the 55k 401k max, should I just open an individual brokerage account of some sort and pick some other index funds for diversification? Or, if I have this cash as a lump sum, do I use that to do the back door Roth so there isn’t any gains to be taxed at all?

Basically, I’m trying to just figure out a strategy where I throw as much money as I can afford into a passive investment of some type, so I’m asking the seasoned gurus the best strategy for my simple mind.

Financial Waterfalls for New Residents and Attendings | The White Coat Investor - Investing And Personal Finance for Doctors

Yes I think a straightforward next step after your HSA is the Backdoor Roth, followed by taxable accounts.

If you want easy stuff for dummies, go look up the 3 fund (and small variations off of it) portfolio on the bogleheads forum or read the book on it.

Vanguard Backdoor Roth 2018: a Step by Step Guide - Physician on FIRE

 

[urge]

Some government hospitals or academic centers provide DCP (457b), another 18k pretax

I don't get why people would want to defer that much money until their 60's.

I calculate I could retire before my 60's just with my taxable account yield. By the time I turn 60 and have access to my tax deferred money, penalty free, I probably wouldn't know what to do with it. Buy a Lambo when I turn 60? I might pay a little more taxes and go for the Corvette in my 40's instead.

I'm not saying don't take advantage of your tax deferred accounts, just don't over do it.

 

[Stroganoff]

Good Bogleheads Wiki entry on "asset location," aka "tax-efficient fund placement."

tl;dr: Place stock funds with low turnover in taxable accounts. Keep bonds in tax-advantaged accounts (401(x), 403(b), 457(b), IRA) unless they're tax-free municipal bonds, which would be OK in taxable.

Some stock funds are more efficient than others. Total stock funds (VTSAX and its ETF equivalent VTI) are popular default options in taxable accounts.

There's also strategies to minimize realizing capital gains and rebalancing strategies.

 

[fakin' the funk]

Ok, first off, I’m the dummy so don’t think I’m giving any pointers here. But I have some questions (I’ve searched the forum but most threads are way over my head).

So I’m trying to get into a good habit from the start but I’m not sure I’m doing it right. My question revolves around post-tax, or “taxable” accounts.

Here is my current scenario;

Max 401k (pre-tax) to 18.5k
Take employer match
Max HSA
(Reduce taxable income a bit and take free money)

But then what?

I’m currently just maxing the 401k “contribution from all sources” up to the 55k limit, most of this is with post-tax dollars.

Does this make sense? I hear people talking about the back door roth, which I interpret to mean I’d roll some of my post tax contributions into a Roth IRA and pay only the taxes on the gains those post tax contributions had made while in the 401k.

The tax free gains in the Roth sound great, but is there a catch? I.e why wouldn’t I just roll my let’s say 30k post tax 401k contributions into a Roth every year? Or can you only roll in $5500 into the Roth even using the back door?

Finally, let’s say I want to put another 30k away, after the 55k 401k max, should I just open an individual brokerage account of some sort and pick some other index funds for diversification? Or, if I have this cash as a lump sum, do I use that to do the back door Roth so there isn’t any gains to be taxed at all?

Basically, I’m trying to just figure out a strategy where I throw as much money as I can afford into a passive investment of some type, so I’m asking the seasoned gurus the best strategy for my simple mind.

It's very important to first realize that Roth is an adjective, not a noun.

 

[pjl]

1 401k, traditional vs Roth. Many arguments for either. Max it out. Mega backdoor is another debatable thing with you likely being in highest tax bracket right now.
2 HSA
3 Backdoor Roth IRA 5500 for you and 5500 wife
4 529 if kids are young-some debate utility
5 emergency fund/estimated quarterly tax fund
6 open brokerage account. Fidelity was way easier to deal with than vanguard for me
6a obtain basic US index fund
6b obtain basic international index fund
6c obtain basic bond fund

5 should be done at least to small degree first.

6 split based on risk tolerance. When I first began it was 100% stock for me, as I figured my emergency fund and ability to continue earning provided all the safety I needed. Also I won’t need any of this money until I significantly cut back or retire, which was sufficiently far away to go for higher gains of stock long term.
Now I am shifting to a less risky profile as I age and find myself with more than my baseline need for risk.

 

[PainDrain]

So question on the backdoor Roth. I was under the impression that there was no limit on post-tax rollover dollars going into a Roth and that you are allowed one Roth conversion a year? Is this true?

 

[Stroganoff]

6c obtain basic bond fund

See the Bogleheads article above on Asset Location/Tax-efficient fund placement. Bonds (except municipal) are typically not tax-efficient so not recommended in a taxable account. In general, bonds belong in tax-advantaged accounts.

 

[NITRAS]

1. I would use your extra to pay off your loans. You get a reasonable ROI, and you lower your risk.
2. I prefer ROTH accounts for many reasons. Sounds like your investing pretty substantial funds per year, which means you should easily have tens of millions of dollars at retirement. I'd rather have them in after tax accounts. This gives you more options in terms of RMD. Also having pre-tax IRAs will prohibit you from doing backdoor ROTH IRAs. Also remember, investing $18500 in a ROTH vs $18500 in a pretax accounts means you have effectively invested more money with the ROTH.
3. I presume you have some sort of solo 401k to get to $55k? My understanding is that you can roll your pre-tax 401k into an after tax 401k, but it will become taxable, and I'm not sure if you have to do all of it at once. I'd talk to a good CPA and investment professional to be sure.

I'm also the guy that would tell you to put the excess in your home mortgage. Then build up money into some sort of account until you either invest in real estate or whatever.

 

[Wiscoblue]

Priorities
1. Max out your pretax contributions
2. Pay off your loans, start an emergency fund.
3. Taxable account. Buy index like SPY, DIA, QQQ or VTSAX. Do not buy individual stocks. Do not trade.

 

[Robotic Wis-Hipple]

Ok, so a few comments to the lots of good advice;

I’m aware that I can put 18.5k into a Roth 401k (maybe it’s not technically called a 401k at that point) but it seems odd to lose the benefit of reducing my taxable income by ~20k (with pre-tax 401k and HSA) but I guess the theory is that that 18.5k then grows, and compounds for 30yrs completely tax free which more than offsets the tax savings annually.

I like the idea of doing a back door Roth annually for 5500 with after tax money.

My employer retirement account appears to be pretty good, it allows me to pick from a decent sampling of index funds, so as I’ve mentioned I’ve just been planning to max out the 55k allowed under the technically 401(a). About 30k of that being post tax money then invested in index funds which is similar to to opening my own brokerage I guess. Well, excluding the fact that I can’t touch it if it’s in this employer sponsored 401(a) vs if it was in my own taxable account.

I’m paying a good amount over what my refinanced loan payment is, which is already on a 5yr plan. So I feel like I’m doing ok there. I also have 3mo of an emergency fund, I guess I could push that up to 4-6mo. I’m a little bit non-traditional so I’m already behind in retirement and compounding so that’s why I’m trying to get some money in there sooner rather than later.

With any annual bonus money I’m planninv to use some to bolster the emergency fund, throw some at loans, and/or put 10-20k into a brokerage account.

If I don’t stay at my current job I’d study and think about the mega Roth conversion I guess, but I don’t see myself looking to buy a house etc for at least 1-2 years (first job).

 

[trobinsonmd]

I did a master's in finance and I handle wealth management on the side for several friends and family, I can tell you right now all of this Roth IRA stuff is nonsense and it's low yield... the treasury curve looks like it will invert soon, and the last 8 times this happened, a recession followed within two years... if that happens (looking more and more likely), there will be a recession (95% likelihood) in the next two years, meaning that prices are going to drop across the board on everything, from mutual funds, to real estate. Right now, a lot of things are still in a bubble and too expensive to invest, so you have to wait for this recession to happen

What I would do if I were you:

literally save up as much cash as you can this year and next... wait for prices to drop sharply, then either put all of your investable cash in vanguard funds (and keep buying monthly or annually or whatever)... or invest in a rental property... you can buy with a low down payment using an FHA loan (youll have to live in it for a certain period of time)... or you may be eligible for a physician loan, although sometimes they have higher rates

 

[trobinsonmd]

also wrt paying off loans... I think you should make your minimum payments for now... if loans are accruing at 6%, but your future vanguard yields you 15%, you're not going to want to allocate a lot of cash to paying off loans, you'll want to scoop up as much vanguard as you can

 

[deleted162650]

Market timers

 

[nimbus]

also wrt paying off loans... I think you should make your minimum payments for now... if loans are accruing at 6%, but your future vanguard yields you 15%, you're not going to want to allocate a lot of cash to paying off loans, you'll want to scoop up as much vanguard as you can

That’s crazy talk that’s been going on for decades.

I’ve never seen an old (experienced) person give this advice. Only young people with a ton of debt think this way. Same way some people justify home mortgages because interest is tax deductible. Interest is interest. Lenders make money with it. Borrowers lose money because of it. Get rid of it. I’ll take 6% guaranteed any day over a crap shoot.

 

[facted]

That’s crazy talk that’s been going on for decades.

I’ve never seen an old (experienced) person give this advice. Only young people with a ton of debt think this way. Same way some people justify home mortgages because interest is tax deductible. Interest is interest. Lenders make money with it. Borrowers lose money because of it. Get rid of it. I’ll take 6% guaranteed any day over a crap shoot.

Totally depends on the rate. Would you pay off a 30 yr 3.5% mortgage? I sure as hell wouldn't. You also need to factor in any deductions you get for mortgage interest...

 

[nimbus]

Totally depends on the rate. Would you pay off a 30 yr 3.5% mortgage? I sure as hell wouldn't. You also need to factor in any deductions you get for mortgage interest...

I would never do a 30yr mortgage. If I need 30 years to pay it off, I can’t afford it.

 

[facted]

I would never do a 30yr mortgage. If I need 30 years to pay it off, I can’t afford it.

Someone lending you money at 3.5% for 30 yrs is one of the best financial deals you could ever make. Some people don't like debt, but from a financial standpoint, this is a no brainer.

 

[nimbus]

Someone lending you money at 3.5% for 30 yrs is one of the best financial deals you could ever make. Some people don't like debt, but from a financial standpoint, this is a no brainer.

We disagree. Why are they lending you money?

 

[facted]

We disagree. Why are they lending you money?

Because banks need a safe, steady way to invest depositors money.

Historically, what do you think 30 year overall stock market returns have been? Greater or less than 3.5% annualized? And that's before taking into account mortgage interest deduction.

 

[thinkorswim]

Someone lending you money at 3.5% for 30 yrs is one of the best financial deals you could ever make. Some people don't like debt, but from a financial standpoint, this is a no brainer.

A 30-year mortgage at 3.5% is great and all, but it is by no means the best financial decision you can ever make. Cash is king.

 

[deleted162650]

I would never do a 30yr mortgage. If I need 30 years to pay it off, I can’t afford it.

Have you tried to buy a home in a decent neighborhood in your town lately? Gonna take a looooong time to save up enough to be able to go with a 15yr.

 

[trobinsonmd]

That’s crazy talk that’s been going on for decades.

I’ve never seen an old (experienced) person give this advice. Only young people with a ton of debt think this way. Same way some people justify home mortgages because interest is tax deductible. Interest is interest. Lenders make money with it. Borrowers lose money because of it. Get rid of it. I’ll take 6% guaranteed any day over a crap shoot.

Respectfully, you're wrong. Yes, lenders make money off of it... not true that borrowers lose money off of it if their money is put elsewhere and making greater than 6%. Not sure how buying Vanguard is a crap shoot, go look at their returns over the last ten years. And you are also wrong about the 30 year mortgage. It is a great deal and a no brainer. If you do not want to make payments over the course of 30 years, no one is preventing you from paying it off sooner. Better to take out a 30 year mortgage and not stretch yourself too thin than to take out a 15 year mortgage with a substantially higher monthly payment. You will have a lower payment monthly, and if you are able to, you can pay more to avoid paying years 16-30 worth of interest.

 

[nimbus]

Because banks need a safe, steady way to invest depositors money.

Historically, what do you think 30 year overall stock market returns have been? Greater or less than 3.5% annualized? And that's before taking into account mortgage interest deduction.

I know the point you are making and used to think that way. But you are not borrowing that money to invest in the stock market. You are borrowing it to buy a house and houses have not appreciated at 3.5% annualized over 30 years in most places in the US. And unlike stocks, houses come with unrelenting tax bills and maintenance costs that people tend to gloss over.

 

[trobinsonmd]

A 30-year mortgage at 3.5% is great and all, but it is by no means the best financial decision you can ever make. Cash is king.

I think it depends on what city you live in... if you live in Tulsa and a nice house is $375k, then absolutely, cash is the way to go. I'm in Manhattan, and anything that is half-decent and worthy of living in is at least 1.75... I'm in derm and even after residency, there is no way I can buy something like that cash

 

[nimbus]

Have you tried to buy a home in a decent neighborhood in your town lately? Gonna take a looooong time to save up enough to be able to go with a 15yr.

No. But that’s why many young people who grew up here move to Oregon and Arizona. You can still do it if it’s worth it to you but a huge mortgage never makes financial sense.

 

[deleted162650]

No. But that’s why many of many young people who grew up here move to Oregon and Arizona. A huge mortgage does not make financial sense.

I don’t disagree with that at all. I tried to leave, but alas . . . here I am.

 

[nimbus]

I think it depends on what city you live in... if you live in Tulsa and a nice house is $375k, then absolutely, cash is the way to go. I'm in Manhattan, and anything that is half-decent and worthy of living in is at least 1.75... I'm in derm and even after residency, there is no way I can buy something like that cash

I used to live in Manhattan and love it. But taking on a 30 yr 1.75mil mortgage as a young doctor will more than likely stress you out. I highly recommend against it. If the housing market remains stable or rises you’ll be fine but you’ll still be stressed.

 

[anbuitachi]

I used to live in Manhattan and love it. But taking on a 30 yr 1.75mil mortgage as a young doctor will more than likely stress you out. I highly recommend against it. If the housing market remains stable or rises you’ll be fine but you’ll still be stressed.

I mean most attendings dont have a house in manhattan and if they do it's something small.. like 2 bedrooms.. I would say majority of the attendings here commute from cheaper places of NYC or NJ/Long island. Manhattan is not a place you can afford to live "well" in with anesthesiology attending salary. It's dominated by Business fields, lawyers, and wealthy CS peoples

 

[nimbus]

I mean most attendings dont have a house in manhattan and if they do it's something small.. like 2 bedrooms.. I would say majority of the attendings here commute from cheaper places of NYC or NJ/Long island.

The 2br condo is 1.75mil.

 

[anbuitachi]

The 2br condo is 1.75mil.

Yea these days a lot of the areas in Manhattan can be at those prices... another reason I'm undecided about where i want to work!

 

[pgg]

I did a master's in finance and I handle wealth management on the side for several friends and family, I can tell you right now all of this Roth IRA stuff is nonsense and it's low yield... the treasury curve looks like it will invert soon, and the last 8 times this happened, a recession followed within two years... if that happens (looking more and more likely), there will be a recession (95% likelihood) in the next two years, meaning that prices are going to drop across the board on everything, from mutual funds, to real estate. Right now, a lot of things are still in a bubble and too expensive to invest, so you have to wait for this recession to happen

What I would do if I were you:

literally save up as much cash as you can this year and next... wait for prices to drop sharply, then either put all of your investable cash in vanguard funds (and keep buying monthly or annually or whatever)... or invest in a rental property... you can buy with a low down payment using an FHA loan (youll have to live in it for a certain period of time)... or you may be eligible for a physician loan, although sometimes they have higher rates

also wrt paying off loans... I think you should make your minimum payments for now... if loans are accruing at 6%, but your future vanguard yields you 15%, you're not going to want to allocate a lot of cash to paying off loans, you'll want to scoop up as much vanguard as you can

Oh my god, it's terrifying to think someone can speak of handling friends' and family wealth management in one breath and then talk about 15% yields from Vanguard in the next.

 

[pgg]

We disagree. Why are they lending you money?

Because of fractional reserve lending, the bank can lend that same money to multiple people at the same time. They're not lending $X at 3.5%, they're lending $X at N x 3.5%. They're moving in a world with different rules.

 

[pgg]

Not sure how buying Vanguard is a crap shoot, go look at their returns over the last ten years.

I feel like I say this a lot, but the best thing about a 10 year historic bull market is that everyone makes money, and the worst thing is that some people think they made money because it's inevitable, or worse, because they're smart.

 

[nimbus]

Because of fractional reserve lending, the bank can lend that same money to multiple people at the same time. They're not lending $X at 3.5%, they're lending $X at N x 3.5%. They're moving in a world with different rules.

That description sounds like a ponzi scheme. Had to look up fractional reserve lending but I cannot wrap my head around it.


Every transaction has a buyer(borrower) and a seller. The seller gets paid in cash. If the bank doesn’t actually have cash on hand to fund the loan, how does the seller get paid? The seller and/or the lien holder get fat checks. Where does that money come from? How can the lender write multiple n checks on the same money?

 

[pgg]

It's all 1s and 0s and faith.

 

[nimbus]

I feel like I say this a lot, but the best thing about a 10 year historic bull market is that everyone makes money, and the worst thing is that some people think they made money because it's inevitable, or worse, because they're smart.

My barometer for an overheated market is when the TV in the doctors lounge is constantly tuned to CNBC. That is a very bad prognostic sign. We are not there yet.

 

[PainDrain]

That description sounds like a ponzi scheme. Had to look up fractional reserve lending but I cannot wrap my head around it.


Every transaction has a buyer(borrower) and a seller. The seller gets paid in cash. If the bank doesn’t actually have cash on hand to fund the loan, how does the seller get paid? The seller and/or the lien holder get fat checks. Where does that money come from? How can the lender write multiple n checks on the same money?

Franctional reserve lending is one of the ways banks “make money”, literally creating dollars where they didn’t exist before. If a bank lends 1million at 5% for 30 years but only has 10% of that amount in actual liquid reserve they create a massive amount of money with ease over that 30 years at 5%. This happens in every loan industry, from student loans to auto loans. The bank, aside from local credit union-type banks, makes money by repackaging this debt into bulk debt that is sold on the secondary market. This, in theory, is supposed to displace risk and add stability but this isn’t the case when that debt is the basis for derivatives and CDOs. This is basically why in 2007 a bunch of “**** loans” made to poor customers endangered the entire economy. These lousy loans were restructured into securities that were then sold off. The banks then took out default swaps (basically a form of insurance) against these securities to minimize their risk and as an additional money stream. Problem was that when the mortgages defaulted and institutions realized the securities were trash it had a ripple effect and spread outward. Instead of actually adding stability to the debt market it compounded the risk because so many institutions were invested in this risk in an attempt to make money. Many famous banks were so over leveraged on CDOs/swaps that they were not even close to solvent; hence Lehman brothers.

 

[anbuitachi]

Yea the majority of the population has no idea what banks are doing to make those $$$$, it's pretty insane. I read in the past before the crash, banks were lending out 80x the amount of money they had.

 

[trobinsonmd]

Oh my god, it's terrifying to think someone can speak of handling friends' and family wealth management in one breath and then talk about 15% yields from Vanguard in the next.

look up VDAIX, average 13% over five years... and there are several other good finds that would get your average up to 15 if you know what you are doing...

 

[Shimmy8]

look up VDAIX, average 13% over five years... and there are several other good finds that would get your average up to 15 if you know what you are doing...

It’s sad you don’t even know what he’s actually saying...