Posting and under-represented minorities

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by ckent, May 2, 2001.

  1. ckent

    ckent Banned
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    Whenever people post their stats and ask what they should do (ie are their grades or MCAT good enough), it would be very helpful to know whether or not they were a member of an under-represented minority in medicine (african american, puerto rican, hispanic, native american). Under-represented minorities are judged under different admissions criteria that often focus more on extracurricular activities or individual circumstances rather then raw numbers. I have found that many under-represented minorites are not aware of the criteria used at most medical schools and are dissuaded from even applying or even from applying to the best school that they could get into. In my opinion, they would help a lot of people if they publicized it more but I can understand why, for political reasons, they don't want to.
     
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  3. 8deuce

    8deuce Senior Member

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    hey guys! good topic and i think both of you have some good points. i have talked to a few minorities on adcoms and they are perplexed at how minorities are not applying to med school. oscar i feel for you because i have a friend who is from nicaragua and he only got acceopted to 2 schools. and he applied to 16 of them. but people mis understand that underrep minorities are strictly african-americans, mexican-americans, puerto ricans, and native americans(also eskimos are included in this). the reason for this is because according to populations, these minority groups have an extremely low amount of doctors and these minority groups are rising in population faster than others. i feel all hispanics should be included. take care and good luck all of you. hey oscar aren't you going to u of washington for med school? thanks and check out the post i started" where are all the minorities". oscar i know you have been to it. peace bro :)
     
  4. djipopo

    djipopo SDN Angel

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    May I ask where an URM could find stats and info on URM's accepted into medical school? I've done some analysis on the statistics posted on the AAMC website and it seems that 30-40% of all URM applicants are denied admission - comparable to rejection rates for non-URM applicants. If med schools are really interested in attracting minorities, their numbers don't show it.
     
  5. coop

    coop Senior Member

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    serindipity,
    I don't know if your 30-40% rejected stat is true, but if it is then it shows a dramatic shift from non-URM admits. Nationally ~40% get ACCEPTED. This would mean 60% of everyone gets rejected and only 30-40% of URMs, this is very significant. good luck
     
  6. UHS03

    UHS03 Senior Member

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    No matter what color you are, getting accepted to even one school is big deal. I certainly do not feel sorry for someone who was "only accepted to 2 schools." Being a minority does not mean you should expect to get in everywhere you apply. Many people apply to far more than a dozen schools and don't get into any of them. Congrats on your acceptance, but don't be suprised at not having a wide variety of choices. I know people with great stats who didn't get in anywhere...keep that in mind when you talk about how you "only" got into 1 or 2 schools. Anyway, good luck in med school.
     
  7. pcl

    pcl Senior Member

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    It's kind of like the asian minority thing.

    You are a minority, you are just not an "under-represented" minority.

    Hispanic URM's are Mexican American, and Island Puerto Ricans only I think.

    Good Luck.
     
  8. djipopo

    djipopo SDN Angel

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    coop,

    I misspoke - only 30-40% of URM's are ACCEPTED out of all URM's that apply, I apologize for any misunderstanding.

    seren :p
     
  9. Sunlyght

    Sunlyght Senior Member

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    Hey you guys, URM's actually do include all minority types. however, ADCOM's for some reason really only include the one's like African-American, Mexican-American etc...when they do reviews. I think this is in part due to the rapid influx of other minority groups onto the medical scene. i.e. asians Groups such as the one behind are continuing to lag behind in the medical school process. As a URM I do think it is unfair that oscar was not reviewed as a minority, but he did get into two schools so don't complain too much. Good luck to everyone
     
  10. 8deuce

    8deuce Senior Member

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    according to the msar urms are (african-americans, mexican-americans,puerto ricans, native americans and american eskimos)and that is straight from the book. it even categorizes the groups and shows the numbers of them. as matter of fact they show the amount of applicants and acceptance rates of the groups and for each school. the acceptance rates of a couple of the groups are higher than average. hope this helped you guys. take care!
     
  11. jjbiv

    jjbiv Member

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    Why does it matter? If you have the stats and sell yourself they will let you in. The point is to turn out great docs -- not to elevate URMs and unprivlidged people into med school. It's all what you make of it. Don't expect a handful of acceptances just because your skin color and culture are different.
     
  12. Sunlyght

    Sunlyght Senior Member

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    Anything helps when your a minority...
     
  13. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    You would be very naive to think that being a URM did not help you get into UWSOM. You have a 27 MCAT and are OUT OF STATE. The 3.5 is a stretch at UW, but a 27? UW is a bear to get into, esp. for an out of stater. Your URM status definitely lowered the bar. It is also important to note (to backup my claim) that 27 is lowest number that UW looks at for WWAMI non minority applicants to get an interview. That number is higher for out of staters (though I dont know the exact number). This is straight out of one of the exec committee members mouth.
     
  14. jewel

    jewel Member

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    Oscar--
    Do you actually think that URMs are the only ones who have to "bust ass and do everything themselves", and thus deserve special consideration? I know of numerous non-URMs, including myself, who were not spoonfed by mommy and daddy. I held a job throughout college, volunteered, was involved in extra-curriculars, and still found time to maintain my grades and score well on the MCAT.
     
  15. 8deuce

    8deuce Senior Member

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    obviously urm's are not the only people who have to bust their ass. but there is no way to deny that minorities are not inherited the same advantages as everyone else. if you deny that, you are living on another planet. we have to do the same as everyone and still have to put up with prejudices. welcome to the world of the shoe being on the other foot. and it hasn't even gotten to that point yet because there is still ignorance among us. now maybe some of the majority are tasting how minorities have felt for so long. take care and good luck! :cool:
     
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  17. Colorado_2

    Colorado_2 Member

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    Normally I don't post on these URM topics, but I have to admit that when I heard that one self-described URM say he/she was offered a position at Duke with a 3.7/30 GPA/MCAT, I was pretty pissed. These are very average stats, and to think that this person will become known as a Duke educated physician is not only misleading to patients, but a disservice to those of us with much better numbers "roughing it" at less reputable institutions.
     
  18. Malftap

    Malftap Member

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    To Colorado_2:
    When is the last time you were a patient and selected a doctor because of what school he went to? I'm wondering? I was also wondering...if you don't go to Duke, Havard, Hopkins or another "top" school that means you are "roughing it." If that's the case the majority of physicians in this country are "roughing it" and doing a great job. I'm sorry to sound harsh but all of us going to medical school in the future are going to be "roughing it" and going through a tough time. It doesn't matter if you are at Havard or MCG or Michigan or LSUHSC-S ...we all are going to have our tough times during this process!!

    Balitmore: Congrads on your accomplishments. Someone always bring up the situation like you did with your parents and surgery. Someone MIGHT get in because they are only a URM but is that going to keep them in medical school? Is being a URM going to get the a good enough board score to match into surgery? Is being a URM going to keep you in that residency program? There are way too many steps in between getting into medical school and becoming a physician. You know that! I'm not trying to get on your case but just wanted to make that point.
     
  19. sheils

    sheils Junior Member

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    URMs still have to work their ASSES off to get into med school. And if there is someone in med school who doesn't have the same "numbers" as me, but happens to be an URM-- I'm sure that I have a lot more to learn from her/him than another student with a similar background to me. Med schools (ideally) don't just admit quotas of URMs to acheive a more positive perception or obtain funding, but they also like to have a DIVERSE class where students can learn from eachother. A class with students of countless backgrounds is much more informative to each student. Am I making any sense? It's Friday and I MUST LEAVE WORK!!!
     
  20. sheils

    sheils Junior Member

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    I still haven't left work, and I'm becoming delirious b/c the weather is so beautiful and I'm inside. Anyway, I just hope people understand that while you do spend most of your time busting ass in med school memorizing and learning and studying, you also (I'm sure) end up spending a great deal of time getting to know your classmates. And I think that there's a lot to learn from classmates with different backgrounds. And I'm not so much responding to your post, but I've read SO MANY posts on other threads that insinuate a lot of negativity towards the URM/non-URM disparity in terms of GPA/MCAT numbers. I just think that people need to realize that..... whatever... i'm not making my point properly here... someone who gets it help me out!
     
  21. Benji Courtney

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    Baltimore,I agree with you. Affirmative action does not belong in the medical school admission process. I feel like I'm a recipient of discrimination because I'm white.
     
  22. dnt107

    dnt107 Senior Member

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    oscar505,

    good for you...if its all true, you have gone through a heck of a lot and you should be commended for getting through it all. The medical school saw something in you and you got accepted...I think it was because your numbers show that you are capable of handling the material. Statistically I think they say that having above a 24 and 3.0 means that you generally will be able to pass the boards and graduate med school if you work hard enough. You have an interesting life and you will add to the diversity of the medicine. I'm happy to call you a colleague of mine. No one gave you any advantage and you earned your position in medical school. Best wishes for you in your future.

    And to the URM who had a 37/3.9...good for you to. You have very impressive academic characteristics that show that you have the drive and talent to be a promising physician. I would hope that you lighten up on some of the others though, because you make it sound like your numbers make you so high and mighty. Even if people do gauge their docs by where they went to med school, they surely do not gauge them by their mcat scores. While it is true that numbers are looked at by adcoms, they are by no means the whole story. I'm sure you have an interesting life story that contributes to the field of medicine that is completely separate from your numbers. It may not be as poetic as Oscar's but that's fine, I'm glad to call you my colleague as well.

    Peace.
     
  23. Thebeyonder

    Thebeyonder Senior Member

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    I agree entirely with Baltimore's post.
    oscar- Your story is infuriating, sorry, but
    that is how I see it.
    You come into this country illegally, never
    having paid taxes, get into a public
    university funded by my taxes and then you
    have the audacity to say that whites have never
    worked as hard as you have, that whites have
    been spoon fed? Oh man lol. Oh yeah I forgot
    I am white so, I a)have tons of money b)have
    a private tutor c)have SAT, MCAT test
    preparation. I have not had a bad life.
    I have had a good life. I have done well
    in school not because I have been pampered,
    believe I have not been. I have done
    well on the MCAT because I studied, when
    other people may have partied, I studied,
    when other people may have gone to the
    beach, I studied. I sacrificed time to do well. I have sacrificed a lot of family time to do well.
    If you are saying that my efforts and
    dedication do not mean squat because of
    your subjective measure of my living the
    "good life" then the best of luck to you
    living in the real world. If you think
    you are the only one in the world who
    was had it "tough" you are in for a rude
    awakening. For you to belittle everyone's
    accomplishments, obtaining a high gpa or
    high mcat scores, because their families are
    rich, goes to show how arrogant you are.
    People who accomplish good grades and
    good mcat scores should be given priority
    for their dedication before someone with
    out the same level of credentials. In what other field are people not judged based upon their credentials? what makes medical school admissions so special?
    I would like to say I wish you the best.
    I hope you realize there are people out there
    who haved worked hard to get where they are,and it shows in their credentials.
    Try to realize that.
    Tim.
    Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
    wwjd?
     
  24. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    Oscar... I am a bit unclear as to what your argument is. Move to seattle and then what do I think? [hypothetical situation to follow] I guess this is assuming after gaining Wa St. residency you are going to apply with a 27/3.49. My guess would be that being an IN STATE resident and URM would give you a BETTER chance than OUT OF STATE and URM with 27. They would be a bit more leniant to a resident of their own state (or WWAMI). So, I dont see what your question would be trying to prove.

    The original post did NOT say that a URM is garauteed admission to medical school. It said that being a URM lowered the standards a bit. URMs can get in with much lower numbers, all else being equal EXCEPT the URM status. Hispanic is very much a URM in the medical field (even "Other Hispanic"). Large population of hispanics + small number of hispanic physicians = URM. It would seem to me that you are presenting a stance on a non-issue. Of course a URM is not garaunteed admission. There is simply a lowered mandatory standard for URMs. My opinion is that your admission to UWSOM is very strong example of this at work.

    As a side note, after having read your numbers in the "WHERE ARE THE MINORITIES" thread, I shared your numbers and the fact that your were from El Salvador and are a New Mexico resident with several of my fellow med applicants at the UW. Many were very surprised. These opinions were based solely on those three factors though. We do not know you personally, nor would we try to form opinions on your (or any other URM or non-URM) likely quality as a future physician.

    Please do not think that I am attacking you. I congratulate you whole heartedly on your accpetance and wish you the best of luck. I simply feel that your argument does not prove much.
     
  25. kaelkastro

    kaelkastro Member

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    For all you shallow minded moronic people out there who choose to attack affirmative action I suggest you put a sock in it. History has shown that minorities have always been underminded and I think it is full time I get some pay back for what my forefathers had to endure. However I do not see it as an excuse to accept egregious stats from any minority student that applies to med school. I think that minorities who are at the border line should be given a little leveridge. Come on people put yourself in someone else shoes, imagine living in a ghetto atmosphere where there is no motivation in the household, financial difficulties, abusive parents (you name it). And somehow through all of this smoke the tenacious student is able to escape the ghetto realms and progress into the med school scene. Come on future doctors! where is your campassion/human nature. We all need to work hard to achieve our goals, but if you doubt that minorities are not at a disadvantage then you need some very thick spectacles. To that Guy who got 3.9/37 I congradulate you on your achievement, but you have to realize that everyones situation is different. Like a famous neuro-surgeon once said " knowledge is the key to all your dreams and aspirations." For all those shallow minded people out there who are against Affirmative action you might as well rally against handicap parking and all that other good stuff. AA is here to stay so you might as well accept it.
    (N A A C P) for life
     
  26. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    kaelkastro... your attack at an opposing view is unwarranted. Affimative Action is very much on the way out. Many states have already passed intiatives to make it illegal. Furthermore, to say that afro ams. or other URMs are the only people who escape extreme adversity in living environments, finanicial standing, and lack of opportunity is incredibly close minded. Please hold off on the rash outbursts and calmy evaluate a real life situation. The truth is we are all human beings. All applicants (not just to med school, but to anything) should be treates as just that, human beings - not black, brown, green, purple, hispanic, caucasian, etc.
     
  27. 8deuce

    8deuce Senior Member

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    amen kaelcastro!!!!!!!! these people bashing urms are the exact reason why we need more minorities in medicine. the places that need the most healthcare are inner cities and i doubt any of these shallow, narrow minded individuals will practice there. wake up every body!!!!!!!!! you guys claim that you feel discriminated against because you are white well how the hell can you be discriminated against when you are the majority. duhhh! and face it, med schools at the most take 10-15 urms(some even less) out of a class of 150-200 so don't act like you are getting a raw deal. if you want to complain and cry like a baby first look at the person in the mirror. damn i really hate writing like this but i will not let ignorance reign. hey urms, stay strong and become great doctors. take care and save the world!!!!!!!!!!
     
  28. praying4MD

    praying4MD 2K Member

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    That's a wonderful sentiment, and I truly wish that's the way reality operated, but the truth is that privileged people usually get further in life. I wish we could all be judged solely on our merit, but this is not realistic. Consider the fact that Asian males have a harder time getting accepted than others, on average (just a generalization). We must also consider that unfortunately, not all adcoms are as open-minded and "blind" to race, color, and creed. Therefore, we may see this institutionalized method as a way to prevent discrimination. I don't necessarily agree with either case, just trying to see different points of view on this issue.
     
  29. praying4MD

    praying4MD 2K Member

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    The above was addressed to DOCUW.
     
  30. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    8deuce. That was likely one of the least intelligent posts I have read regarding a serious issue. You made several horrible generalizations regarding others in this thread and other people. To assume that posters are white, will never work in the inner-city. "shallow, narrow minded individuals will practice there." What an ignorant sweeping generalization. (I am very unhappy that I have to stoop as low as to making judgements on your intelligence, but this post clearly represents a lack there of). I would hope that a URM would be an open-minded individual. Apparently the NAACP doenst preach this. This inflamtory posting is getting you (and myself) nowhere very quickly. I was never bashing minorities. I was simply pointing out to Oscar, that his situation is a classic example of URM bias working in his favor, and that his 1st reply to original post was not a valid argument.
     
  31. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    praying4md. thank you for your calm and rational supposition. I am very aware that we all live in a race aware world. I think that the URMs opinions here reflect that this is ture both ways. Also, because of my close friendship with several asian men, I am very aware of their seemingly new difficulty in gaining acceptance. I am under the impression, though, that this is an unfortunate consequence of trying to correct for the huge representation of this race/gender class that almost dominated med school throughout the 90s. Oddly enough, that huge infulx was the result of Affirmative Action trying to increase URM count.
     
  32. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    Oscar. I am not sure what beyonder's hostility is all about. But, I would like to say that your life story is certainly very unique. I think that your success in the US is wonderful. Contratulations. I think that people like you are the very reason that the US is so desirable for people want a better life and immigrate. I would like to ask why you chose to enter illegally though. Was there simply no way for you to enter with a visa or green card? Again, congrats.
     
  33. 8deuce

    8deuce Senior Member

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    docuw. you obviously have no clue what you are talking about. oh and you can stop the passive-agressive responses b/c it doesn't make you seem any smarter. first of all the bashing posts that have been on here have been done by whites and this is what they wrote not me. second if more whites would practice in the inner cities, do you think that the inner city would be suffering from a physician shortage? yeah, that's what i thought so you can cease the "sweeping generalization" bullcrap right now. and you talk about a "classic urm bias". what the hell is that and who the hell are you? can you honestly say that the medical community has not been "biased" towards minorities in this country. if you believe this then i will be upset to have to stoop low to make a judgement on your intelligence. wake the hell up already!
     
  34. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    8deuce. Where to start. First, thank you for your psychoanalysis of my disucssion ("passive-aggressive..."). Next, I cant help but notice that you in your few posts have done more race bashing than any other (well, ok, beyonder had some issues). Regarding the physician shortage in inner citys: Why not ask the same question about URMs. Although there are few URMs in medical school (10-15 in a class of 150-200 from your previously stated statistics), they are not all choosing to practice in the ghetto. The fact is where you practice is a personal choice, often times not based on race. Many URMs dont want to practice in these areas, and just dont do it. On the flip side of this, many many of the physicians that you will find in the inner cities are "whites." It was their personal choice to practice there. Your belief that getting more URMs into medicine is going to solve these types of shortages is simply a hope based on fantasy.

    "what the hell is that" The "classic URM bias" that I speak of is the Affirmative Action bias that lowers the standards for URMs. I think you have confused bias as meaning a bias against minorities. Unfortunately, this was not what my phrase referred to. Sorry for any confusion.

    "can you honestly say that the medical community has not been "biased" towards minorities in this country" I would say that they have been treated as minorities. Thats all I would say. I can not say that there is rampant hatred towards people of non "white" race, that there are fewer minorities because they are just that - a minority, or that there are fewer because minorities are not able to get the same experience and credentials as non minorities. But, I never tired to ask this question.

    "and who the hell are you?" Just a human being who has been through the process and has become familiar with many of the politics.
     
  35. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    Oscar. I would definitely NOT say that the only reason you got in was because you were a minority in that case. I would say you got in because you met the required numbers, and on top of that had an excellent interview, had great life experiences, had medical field exposure/experience, and had a stong love for medicine. (all of which seems likely). As you see, the state residency was the biggest factor that I was surprised you were able to overcome, and it so happens that it is likely due to your URM status. Surprised, but excited for you. Also, I am very happy with attending Creighton. We all end up where we do for some reason. (also, please dont think my comments towards you have been made out of bitterness/jealously. I just wanted to let you know what I have learned b/c of my experience with UWSOM.).

    As far as the tables being turned (hardships), I dont have any argument here. I have no idea what you have been through, nor do I think I need to know. I have to pay for my own education, work, take loans, apply for private scholarships, etc. and study. So do you I would assume. So, to answer you question, I have had/still have to "worry about things like that." (also note that I was not the one talking to you/arguing with you about the "work your ass off" thing). :)
     
  36. 8deuce

    8deuce Senior Member

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    docuw.i am in no way race bashing but just simply responding to some really questionable remarks by some of the people posting. granted not all urms are practicing in the inner city but the percentages of urms to others is higher in the inner city. however, this does not always mean that non- minorities do not want to practice there. reasons could be due to language barriers and patients who do not feel comfortable about that. but think about this. do you know of any non-minority who would want to switch places with a latino or african-american? good luck on the search. lastly, i may have come across harsh but i was fuming over some of the ignorant responses on this post. most notably beyonder and colorado 2. good luck at creighton. i heard it is called the harvard of the midwest. is it true? are you enjoying it up to now? take care
     
  37. praying4MD

    praying4MD 2K Member

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    "...I am very aware of their seemingly new difficulty in gaining acceptance. I am under the impression, though, that this is an unfortunate consequence of trying to correct for the huge representation of this race/gender class that almost dominated med school throughout the 90s. Oddly enough, that huge infulx was the result of Affirmative Action trying to increase URM count."

    DOCUW: That may very well be true, however, I was under the impression that there was a large influx immigrants during this time period as well. Let us not forget the cultural differences as well, where in Asian cultures, higher education is much more highly valued. Many claim this is also why we see more Asians in medicine.

    All in all, I do agree that merit should be the only factor in admittance. Again though, racism is alive and well in adcoms. There was a post in an "interview" thread where the poster said he was asked why his PS score was relatively low, considering that "Asians are good in the Physical Sciences." :eek: This is not an isolated event either. In the "religion on application" thread, I relate a story where my Muslim friend was asked if his father trained him how to make bombs! :eek: again! These attitudes are just one more thing that minorities have to worry about, in addition to thinking twice about simply telling about their heritage because of stereotypes. Again, I'm not a proponent of either side, just putting myself in the place of others.
     
  38. pinkie08

    pinkie08 Junior Member

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    I just have a few questions.

    Are any non urms equally outraged by students who get in because of family connections or because someone knew someone? Is this wrong?

    What other factors besides grades comes into play with the application process besides grads and mcat scores

    What disadvantages do these urms encounter in their everyday lives that would make life more difficult? ( 1. Before you answer this question ask yourself would you really trade places with a minority student. 2. These disadvantages could also be view by some as advantages that non urms have)

    I think this is a really interesting discussion. And I encourage more replies even if they are ones I don't agree with because through understanding comes change.

    oh yes this journal article may shed some light on the situation
    Poussaint AF.
    Clinical experience and minority group students. A perspective from Harvard Medical School. Clin Orthop. 1999 May;(362):78-84.
     
  39. Thebeyonder

    Thebeyonder Senior Member

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    if you have a caucasian doctor who has graduated from an Ivy league med school, what is the likelihood of him/her going to work in East LA or Compton or Watts which as many know, are areas with lots of hispanics and blacks knowing that most people there will be poor, uninsured, spanish-speaking, etc? I cetainly doubt he/she would, hence the reason to train people who are more likely to set up practice in those areas. This was originally posted by oscar.I can attest to the fact that some people are lucky enough to have parents that do everything for them except wipe their ass. All they have to do is study study study and they do not have to worry about working to pay their rent, blls, etc cuz mommy and daddy take care of everything. Obviously, someone who has that kinda of support is geared to do better in school as opposed to someone who has to bust ass and do everything themselves. This was also posted by oscar.
    I think the majority of the people have
    missed my and the Supreme Court's point.
    I drew from oscar's original post that he
    was saying that whites were priveleged and
    did not need to work to get where they are
    at. I think it was a reasonable inference,
    but he states I was mistaken. According
    to oscar he was talking about hispanics
    he knows with loads of money having it well.
    I think that people that have parents that
    work hard, stay together, and work
    exceedingly hard to make every possible effort to have their children attend a good school should be commended not looked at as having an unfair advantage. They have an unfair advantage because they have worked for it. Everyone that is not poor and does well, deserves their position. If you are poor and do well, that makes you no better than the rich person who has done well.
    8deuce-I made prior ignorant posts? I probably did but can you clarify this with an example?
    docuw- so you are psychoanalysing me? I show hostility? You bet I do. There are people that are waitlisted to legally get into this country. The fact that there are people illegally getting into this country while people legally wait, infuriates me. I believe in civil order not anarchy and chaos.
    Did my hostility become apparent when I argued that people that actually work hard should have an advantage? I find it very disconcerting that people feel it is ok to work hard and have that hard work pay off in other professions or other arenas of life, but when it comes to med school acceptances there is an advantage given to a few. 8deuce wants to know how the majority can be discriminated against? It happens daily.
    The majority continually discriminated against when it allows affirmative action.
    The objective of affirmative action is to equalize the minority population in the med school system with the minority population in the country as a whole. OK, if this system is valid and not artifically unequal, then it should apply to all professions.
    The population of asians in the NBA is not equal to the population of asians in the country. the nba must be forced to accept asians with less basketball ability to achieve this standard. Should not we apply this rule to all other professions.
    There are not enough whites in X profession,
    you must hire some now! there are not
    enough porteugese in Y profession higher some now! There are not enough christians in Z profession, higher some now!
    I think you can understand my point.
    I am not saying there should not be diversity, however it should not come at the expense of dedication (which is proven through credentials).
    Tim.
     
  40. Benji Courtney

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    TheBeyonder, well said!!! "8 deuce" I bet you would throw affirmative action out the door if the NBA,BET,etc. was forced to abide by it. I am not a racist; I am simply partial to equality across the board and I know affirmative action is blind to that. All school teachers have to take the NTE(National Teacher Examination). There is a certain score required to be admitted into the school of education, but there is also a required number of blacks to be admitted. On the national average blacks score much lower than others on the NTE but are admitted due to affirmative action. Their standard is lowered. If a white made the same score, regardless of his/her circumstances they would not be. I don't care what you believe, this is an example of discrimination!
     
  41. tonem

    tonem Senior Member

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    Its also an example of faulty reasoning, and heresay (do you have proof supporting your accusation or is that just something everyone (who is not a racist) knows?
     
  42. Benji Courtney

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    Yes, but given your bias I suggest you find this fact out for yourself. You have audacity to question my integrity on an example as specific as I gave. Why dare make me out to be stupid before you have proved me wrong?
     
  43. tonem

    tonem Senior Member

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    What bias? I'm assuming you've studied some science so you should know that questioning someone's position is common practice. It has nothing to do with audacity. Usually the person who makes the statement (not the reader) is responsible for providing references in support of their position. I admit I was wrong in my original post...your statement isn't really faulty reasoning, it just didn't make any sense to me on several different levels.

    On the one hand it sounds like you're talking about a licensing exam that you say is required to teach ("all school teachers have to take the NTE"). But then you say blacks score lower on this test but are admitted to a school of education anyway. Why are they taking a licensing exam to get into school? Premeds don't take the USMLE to get into medical school.

    Second, you're arguing that every school of education in America (I'm sure there are hundreds) has quotas for the number of "unqualified" black students they're admitting. For your information, that is illegal (see Bache v. University of California) so its not very likely.

    How do you know that a white student with the same "below average" score would not be admitted? Again, do you just know or do you have proof. Because if you dont have proof, it's just you opinion.

    Finally, why are you so sensitive? If youre going to suceed in your medical education you better get a thicker hide.
     
  44. Rhiana

    Rhiana Senior Member

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    I've just got to chime in here. First, it seems as though we're actually talking about two different subjects. A) Whether it's fair that privleged and non-privledged students are evaluated the same for med school and B) Whether there is a need for minority doctors. To me these are different questions.
    It's not fair that people who work full time, get no finacial aid, and no commercial MCAT prep have to compete with those that have. The fact that adcoms do not separate us is a travesty.
    As for whether we need more minorities in medicine, I suggest you ask those who know best: our patients. As someone with a medical problem and they'll most likely say yes. i have endometriosis and when I first went for my diagnosis they assumed since I was young and Hispanic that it was an STD. Would this have happened with non-white doctors, I can't say for sure. But the fact that I have to wonder if my treatment was influenced by race disgraces the entire medical profession. I would never have to wonder if my doctor was Hispanic.
    Doctors who were once poor understand issues that those who are rich never have. I've had to split my pills because i have no medical insuranc. I've neglected to see a doctor because I can't get the time off of work. All of these factors are very important to patients, and if you've never been there you can't understand. Just as if you have never been a minority you can't understand the challenges we face.
     
  45. Benji Courtney

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    If I could undo the my previous post, I would. I am in no way,shape, or form a racist so please don't interpret my post in that light. It was quiet a while back that I heard (from a national board certified teacher holding a masters degree) about this issue. I just did research about it and what used to be called the NTE is now called the PRAXIS. All I know for sure is that a certain number of minorities are required to be admitted into the school of education(at my university). I see nothing wrong with that as long as standards are not lowered. I will humbly admit I'm not so sure they are but it looks like they could be because of minority quota. I should have found this out in writing before last post. I beleive my original resource could have been biased herself so I will not beleive it until I see it for myself. Sorry for comment if it turns out not to be true.
     
  46. SistaKaren

    SistaKaren Displaced Tar Heel

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    I think this is a bad generalization to make. Because certainly not all Asians are
    "book smart", just as all URMs don't slack off because they know they have AA (which I'm not saying that you said at all, just a hypothetical situation) so I don't think it's wise to perpetuate stereotypes like that. Some asians may have a higher work ethic because of their culture, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are inherently "book smart" or anything.

    Karen
     
  47. UHS03

    UHS03 Senior Member

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    Are you sure this was racially motivated? STD can cause PID, which can certainly mimic endometriosis. You were probably screened for STD's as well as given a pregancy test, and when those things were negative they resorted to doing a lap to find endometriosis. I think this was the standard of care and most patients would rather exclude other things via blood tests before going in for something invasive like a lap. Sounds to me like you received comprehensive care.
     
  48. Sunlyght

    Sunlyght Senior Member

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    You know...these posts are getting pointless. Those of you who are not URM's will NEVER understand the problems that we face and HAVE to overcome to prove we are worthy of the same actions. AA wouldn't be needed if "all men where created equal" Sound familar? Case closed, you'll never understand because your not the minority and you never will be. SO you can reply and say something really clever to try to refute this argument. But again, you'll NEVER understand...your ancestors may have found the country on equality, but they sure didn't hesistate to say who was gonna break their backs in the hot sun so they could claim they built the country. How about them apples?
    I'll be waiting to hear the replies of those of you who feel you are soooooooooo right about your views of minorities in anything. But like I said, you have no point because you'll NEVER understand. Give it up already!
     
  49. 8deuce

    8deuce Senior Member

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    hail! hail! to sunlyght. thank you thank you. seems like me and you always agree. like i have mentioned before not one of these urm bashers would trade places with a latino or african american and they know it. i didn't read any reply from them after the posting so i think we know who's right. and please people, don't even come with that " how can you make such a generalization" crap. you will never know what we have to put up with every day and probably will always have to put up with. oh and to benji courtney, you claim that if aa was in the nba i would throw it out the door. well how many minorities are in management positions in the nba? i guess you never thought about that and to answer that question the numbers could be counted on one hand. so if they want aa in the nba so be it. don't rant and rave about equality and then get pissed off because it doesn't benefit you personally. like iv'e said before urms stay strong and become great doctors, take care and save the world!!!!!!!!
     
  50. Nanon

    Nanon An urban myth.

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    It distresses me to see so many white folks displaying their ignorance, so I will post.

    My mom is mentally ill, and when I lived with her, I lived in the ghetto. On welfare. I went to work when I was 14 to help pay the rent and pay for food. I never graduated from highschool, and I wasn't encouraged to. I was tracked into the techincal classes like shop and auto and typing. All of the kids in my neighborhood went to the same classes.

    I grew up and eventually became a programmer, teaching myself through reading textbooks. I landed a job as a programmer/office manager, making 22K a year for a head hunting company. They recruited accountants. If you were black, hispanic or overweight, you were turned down or "browned out," meaning the hunter wouldn't promote you. This was only seven years ago.

    I'm white. I've had to work my ass off to get where I am. I've gone from the most chaotic, poverty stricken background most white people can imagine to being a self sufficiant woman at a presigious college. My gpa sucks, (3.0) and I won't be going to med school any time soon. My lack of success in college is partly due to the fact that I didn't graduate highschool, but a lot due to the fact that I've been my mom's primary care-taker while in college.

    Will I mind if a URM with a better financial background gets in with my stats and I don't? No. Why? Because I KNOW what they face that I don't. No matter how poor I've been, I've always been able to get a job or an apartment. I can dress up nicely, and no one will assume that I grew up where and how I did. Noone will assume that I'm a highschool dropout. Noone will assume that there is something wrong with my mom. Noone will assume that I grew up on welfare, or that I paid for my food with foodstamps. I can HIDE my background in my skin color. Were my color any different, I know for a fact that those assumptions would be made, no matter what my background.

    My half brother is brilliant, grew up in a relatively wealthy family, graduated first in his class in highschool. He went to Vanderbilt, and is now on his way to Columbia to get his law degree. He's also half Guatamalan. His skin is maybe one or two shades darker than mine, and I've watched as he's been discriminated against. It takes him twice as long to get an apartment. Waiters ignore him in restaurants, yet I've never had one ignore me.

    Racism exists. If you don't see it, then you don't wish to, and that's your problem.

    Nanon
     
  51. ckent

    ckent Banned
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    I didn't intend for this to become a discussion of affirmative action, but I feel that I must respond to the comments about the need for AA because of racism. I agree that racism and stereotypes exists, but then why aren't asians (including indians, people fromt the middle east, and other minorities who do not look caucasian) covered by affirmative action? Many asians have ancestry that were brought here to work as "slaves" in railroad mines, Asians have historically been subject to the same discrimination that other urm's face, I would argue they face more discrimination then hispanics because they at least can look "caucasian" and fit in, whereas asians will always be considered foreigners regardless of how many generations their families have lived here. In response to it's because many asians are immigrants, I would note that many are immigrants from poor countries whereas many urms have lived in the US (the richest country) for many generations. I've noticed that if anything, discrimination against asians is just more accepted and there is less of outcry when it occurs because people assume that asians as a whole are seen as doing alright, there have been a few cases within the past few years where asians were singled out and murdered by racists serial killers but I do not believe that the cases were not put into the national spotlight as much as it would have been if the victims had been other minorities. Many asians come from poor socioeconomic background too, yet socio-economic background isn't used as much as race for admissions standards, therefore some asians have 2 things (being poor, being a minority) going against them. I'm actually not against affirmative action, I've read several studies citing the need for affirmative action, diversity in medical school is a very important part of our education. However, I just think that oftentimes people use the wrong reasons to justify it. I hope that eventually AA will be phased out if for no other reason then because it does create this animosity between racial groups of one side believing that the other side has been promoted unfairly. In response to the questioning of competence of AA recipient physicians though, studies have shown that urms do equally well in the practice of medicine (by looking at how residency directors rated them versus non-urms), if not in the academics. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.
     
  52. docuw

    docuw Senior Member

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    I would say that I agree with you. Asians are very often discriminated against. However, I think I may have answered your question about why AA doesnt help Asians. They are not an under represented minority in medicince. There are large numbers of Asians who got into the field in the 80s and 90s. A speculation of mine is that, of all minorities, Asians had the highest scores (perhaps due to their extreme value of higher education). Thus, in an attempt to increase minority count, schools would accept lots of Asians. The point remains, that AA does not work in their favor because they are not under represented.
     

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