Potential Secondary Update

[DoctorFate]

.
I wanted to ask whether uploading an activities update to med school secondaries would be advisable. I recently realized that my application may be excessively research focused, and one of my most significant patient experience occurred outside of the US. I have substantial shadowing experiences, and one medical study I am leading that involves interacting with 15 patients.

I excluded a patient care experience experience from AMCAS because it is my earliest activity, and I wanted to include more recent experiences. However, I still feel that it is relevant to my application and believe it may be useful for the admissions committee’s evaluation. Thank you for your consideration.

@Goro @LizzyM @Lucca

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[Goro]

I wanted to ask whether uploading the following documents to med school secondaries would be advisable. I recently realized that my application may be excessively research focused, and one of my most significant patient experience occurred as part of a global health fellowship in India. I have substantial shadowing experiences, and one medical study I am leading that involves interacting with 15 patients, and worked with hospitalized children at CHOP as part of a Thon (although it was not the focus of the organization). Is there any chance sending the attached update would negatively reflect on my application?

Dear Admissions Committee,

Due to AMCAS’s restriction of 15 activities, I was unable to include one of my Clinical Volunteering experiences. Between January 2017 and August 2017, I was a Patient Ambulatory Care Volunteer at Main Line Health’s XX Hospital. I volunteered for 150 hours and shadowed physicians and surgeons for 12 hours. My coordinator’s name is Ms. XX, who can be reached at [email protected] and XXX-XXX-XXXX. My duties included setting up patient rooms, transporting patients, and assisting with patient needs and discharge services. I worked with many patients from admission to discharge, and always tried to offer them my comfort, encouragement, and support. I came to understand the concerns of patients undergoing a wide array of treatments and learned to procure patient information quickly and accurately. As my first volunteer position involving clinical exposure, this experience confirmed my growing desire to enter medicine and expanded my understanding of healthcare.

I excluded this experience from AMCAS because it is my earliest activity, and I wanted to include more recent experiences. However, I still feel that it is relevant to my application and believe it may be useful for the admissions committee’s evaluation. Thank you for your consideration.

@Goro @LizzyM @Lucca

Read my sig lines, please

 

[DoctorFate]

So what you want to do is find a way around the 15 activities, even though that is the limit? And you think you should do this because you are special?

The criticism is appreciated. It prevented me from sending any schools this update.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I wanted to ask whether uploading the following documents to med school secondaries would be advisable. I recently realized that my application may be excessively research focused, and one of my most significant patient experience occurred as part of a global health fellowship in India. I have substantial shadowing experiences, and one medical study I am leading that involves interacting with 15 patients, and worked with hospitalized children at CHOP as part of a Thon (although it was not the focus of the organization). Is there any chance sending the attached update would negatively reflect on my application?

Dear Admissions Committee,

Due to AMCAS’s restriction of 15 activities, I was unable to include one of my Clinical Volunteering experiences. Between January 2017 and August 2017, I was a Patient Ambulatory Care Volunteer at Main Line Health’s XX Hospital. I volunteered for 150 hours and shadowed physicians and surgeons for 12 hours. My coordinator’s name is Ms. XX, who can be reached at [email protected] and XXX-XXX-XXXX. My duties included setting up patient rooms, transporting patients, and assisting with patient needs and discharge services. I worked with many patients from admission to discharge, and always tried to offer them my comfort, encouragement, and support. I came to understand the concerns of patients undergoing a wide array of treatments and learned to procure patient information quickly and accurately. As my first volunteer position involving clinical exposure, this experience confirmed my growing desire to enter medicine and expanded my understanding of healthcare.

I excluded this experience from AMCAS because it is my earliest activity, and I wanted to include more recent experiences. However, I still feel that it is relevant to my application and believe it may be useful for the admissions committee’s evaluation. Thank you for your consideration.

So you couldn't drop another activity for this? My son came up with 17 activities, he ended up combining two into one and dropped the other one.

 

[DoctorFate]

So you couldn't drop another activity for this? My son came up with 17 activities, he ended up combining two into one and dropped the other one.

I 100% should have. I'm a huge research applicant with incredible research recommendation letters, 7 presentations at national conferences, my own research grant involving human interaction etc. I had to choose between a research activity and this 150 hours clinical experience. I figured this volunteering was completely standard/typical, so better to include another research project I did.
Wrong move, wish I realized it earlier.

 

[KnightDoc]

So you couldn't drop another activity for this? My son came up with 17 activities, he ended up combining two into one and dropped the other one.

No -- it sounds like he didn't think it was important, and now someone convinced him that it is, so he wants to submit it. And the answer he received is that it's a bad idea, so he's going to live with the decision he made when he left it out. Your son was more was more on top of it because he knew he wanted to include the 16 activities, but that is not OP's question, and doesn't really help him now!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No -- it sounds like he didn't think it was important, and now someone convinced him that it is, so he wants to submit it. And the answer he received is that it's a bad idea, so he's going to live with the decision he made when he left it out. Your son was more was more on top of it because he knew he wanted to include the 16 activities, but that is not OP's question, and doesn't really help him now!!

OP replied before you

 

[KnightDoc]

OP replied before you

I know, but I didn't see it until after I posted because I was typing while he was posting!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I 100% should have. I'm a huge research applicant with incredible research recommendation letters, 7 presentations at national conferences, my own research grant involving human interaction etc. I had to choose between a research activity and this 150 hours clinical experience. I figured this volunteering was completely standard/typical, so better to include another research project I did.
Wrong move, wish I realized it earlier.

That's impressive. I hope you listed decent clinical experiences. My son is also showing lot of research experience but covered other bases also.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I think I'm still fine to be honest, might have gotten overly worried. I have 150 hours of very strong clinical experience in India. Unfortunately, I hear international work is generally looked down upon unless you have a clear connection to the cause. Fortunately, I have such a connection, as the sponsoring organization and activity occurred very close to my maternal hometown and I tied it into my application very strongly.

Outside of that, I have a leadership position (VP) in our university's largest organization, a Thon for CHOP(which is non-clinical volunteering, 200 hours), but included working with hospitalized children. In my research grant I perform ultrasounds on 15 patients and gather much other medical data. I am also part of a neuromotor lab where I work with patients to obtain neuromotor data and analyze it. I also build an app that was ranked a Finalist for a $50k grant from the American Heart Association that aimed to decrease cardiovascular issues in undeserved communities. Finally, I should add that every single one of my research experiences were clinical research, and often involved working with highly sensitive patient data.

An extra 150 hours of clinical volunteering would definitely have been preferable to add to that research experience (especially considering that 7/15 activities are research). Everyone has told me that I can add this update if I am granted an interview, so I have no worries if I can reach the interview stage. Hopefully I have enough regardless that I can at least get that far.
Live and learn haha

You will be fine. Some say you need more than 100-200 hours of clinical experience but I hear differently from students I know (may be because they went to top schools?).

 

[gyngyn]

Don't do this.

 

[DoctorFate]

You will be fine. Some say you need more than 100-200 hours of clinical experience but I hear differently from students I know (may be because they went to top schools?).

So you're saying top schools may not value clinical experience quite as much? (since you heard differently from students that went to top schools)

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

So you're saying top schools may not value clinical experience quite as much? (since you heard differently from students that went to top schools)

I am saying only negative in your app is not more than 100-200 clinical hours you should be OK.

 

[KnightDoc]

So you're saying top schools may not value clinical experience quite as much? (since you heard differently from students that went to top schools)

I think you might be talking past each other. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like @EdgeTrimmer is saying people from top UGs might need less clinical hours to be successful, and not that top med schools don't value the hours. @EdgeTrimmer -- am I wrong??? If not, I'd like to offer my services as your interpreter. If so, never mind!!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I think you might be talking past each other. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like @EdgeTrimmer is saying people from top UGs might need less clinical hours to be successful, and not that top med schools don't value the hours. @EdgeTrimmer -- am I wrong??? If not, I'd like to offer my services as your interpreter. If so, never mind!!

As usual you interpretation is 100% accurate. SDN interpreter is your new EC

 

[KnightDoc]

As usual you interpretation is 100% accurate. SDN interpreter is your new EC

Thank you very much!!! As you know, I desperately need the hours!! Does it count as clinical, since it involves direct contact with people suffering from neurosis????

 

[DoctorFate]

Thank You both for your help and time!
I made a final post here:

WAMC- top-heavy school list, high stat, high research, medium volunteering, low clinical

GPA: 3.99 MCAT: 520 Double Major: Data Science and Biology Double Minor: Healthcare Management and Chemistry Research: I'm extremely research heavy. I have exceptional research recommendation letters, 7 presentations at national conferences, my own research grant etc. I only have 1 publication...

forums.studentdoctor.net

At this point, it's just a waiting game. Fingers crossed for luck,

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank You both for your help and time!
I made a final post here:

WAMC- top-heavy school list, high stat, high research, medium volunteering, low clinical

GPA: 3.99 MCAT: 520 Double Major: Data Science and Biology Double Minor: Healthcare Management and Chemistry Research: I'm extremely research heavy. I have exceptional research recommendation letters, 7 presentations at national conferences, my own research grant etc. I only have 1 publication...

forums.studentdoctor.net

At this point, it's just a waiting game. Fingers crossed for luck,

Any IIs yet??? As you undoubtedly know, your stats are off the charts, but the rest of your experiences are very typical, rather than extraordinary, and unfortunately, even your crazy good stats will be merely typical at top schools. Please tell us you applied more broadly than the title of that thread implies.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

What's the point of new thread? So you showed no US clinical experience?

 

[KnightDoc]

What's the point of new thread? So you showed no US clinical experience?

Again, please allow me to provide my interpretation services, this time for you rather than of you. The point of the new thread is to solicit opinions on what his chances are with the application he has, rather than asking about the wisdom of sending an "update" that doesn't provide new information but rather just highlights and attempts to explain a negative in his application.

The new thread is very justified and totally appropriate, but OP would receive better advice if he gives us the school list rather than just saying 33 top heavy schools, since, contrary to what the adcoms say, I honestly don't think there are 33 schools in the T10!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Again, please allow me to provide my interpretation services, this time for you rather than of you. The point of the new thread is to solicit opinions on what his chances are with the application he has, rather than asking about the wisdom of sending an "update" that doesn't provide new information but rather just highlights and attempts to explain a negative in his application.

The new thread is very justified and totally appropriate, but OP would receive better advice if he gives us the school list rather than just saying 33 top heavy schools, since, contrary to what the adcoms say, I honestly don't think there are 33 schools in the T10!

May be OP applied to T33 schools ?

 

[KnightDoc]

May be OP applied to T33 schools ?

Clearly, but at what point does the top become less heavy??

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank You both for your help and time!
I made a final post here:

WAMC- top-heavy school list, high stat, high research, medium volunteering, low clinical

GPA: 3.99 MCAT: 520 Double Major: Data Science and Biology Double Minor: Healthcare Management and Chemistry Research: I'm extremely research heavy. I have exceptional research recommendation letters, 7 presentations at national conferences, my own research grant etc. I only have 1 publication...

forums.studentdoctor.net

At this point, it's just a waiting game. Fingers crossed for luck,

Penn by any chance? If so, you might be okay based on what @EdgeTrimmer said about top schools!

 

[DoctorFate]

I (approximating) applied to 20 schools between rank 1 and 35, and 10 between 35 and 55.
@KnightDoc is my research experience really typical? Or did you mean typical of top school? I've read many top SDN profiles accepted into top schools and my experiences seem to be in-line or slightly supercede most of them, as well as be highly unique (not many comp sci-esque applicants working with neural networks, deep learning, and machine learning). The highest number of national/international conference presentations I've seen was 5 (from an applicant under 24) and not many have their own grants.

Is my impression incorrect? Perhaps a sample size bias.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Penn by any chance? If so, you might be okay based on what @EdgeTrimmer said about top schools!

We are not supposed to ask their UG school and in the past when i figured I advised them to modify the description. May be OP doesn't mind.

 

[KnightDoc]

I (approximating) applied to 20 schools between rank 1 and 35, and 10 between 35 and 55.
@KnightDoc is my research experience really typical? Or did you mean typical of top school? I've read many top SDN profiles accepted into top schools and my experiences seem to be in-line or slightly supercede most of them, as well as be highly unique (not many comp sci-esque applicants working with neural networks, deep learning, and machine learning). The highest number of national/international conference presentations I've seen was 5 (from an applicant under 24) and not many have their own grants.

Is my impression incorrect? Perhaps a sample size bias.

No -- the research is exceptional, but it's only one thing, like GPA and MCAT. In fact, it's so damn good that it might work against you if adcoms think you are one dimensional because of how much better it is than other elements of your ECs. In any event, I meant ECs as a whole are decent, but not exceptional, for top schools.

To @EdgeTrimmer's point, I didn't meant to pry to jeopardize your anonymity, but you already told us you are in the Philly area, and coming from Penn might mitigate not having more clinical, if @EdgeTrimmer is correct.

Don't freak out, because it's early and wouldn't be fatal if the answer is "none," but do you have any IIs yet? That could be an early positive indicator if the answer is "yes"!

By the way, 10 schools ranked between 35 and 55 is good in terms of spreading yourself out. You should have multiple acceptances, including some T20. Beyond my, my crystal ball is too foggy to be of more help!

 

[DoctorFate]

No, not from Penn, unfortunately.
I submitted my apps in the first two weeks of August. So far no II. I was getting worried, but I saw posts about a shift in review this cycle cause of AAMC's two week delay on applications, so I'm hoping I'll have an interview by the end of September.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

No, not from Penn, unfortunately.

hmmm, based on your research description I also assumed Penn (they are heavy in computational research)

 

[DoctorFate]

I'm sorry I forgot to add! I also have 100-150 hours of shadowing in a variety of roles, which led to conference presentations and publications- first author from potential problems I identified in procedures I observed. The doctors I worked with were quite impressed by it and said as much in their recommendation letters.

Alas, shadowing counts as a lower tier clinical experience apparently.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Alas, shadowing counts as a lower tier clinical experience apparently.

All adcoms here say shadowing <> clinical

 

[KnightDoc]

No, not from Penn, unfortunately.
I submitted my apps in the first two weeks of August. So far no II. I was getting worried, but I saw posts about a shift in review this cycle cause of AAMC's two week delay on applications, so I'm hoping I'll have an interview by the end of September.

Sorry about Penn -- me neither!!

Please don't freak out. This is one of the things that makes SDN a little toxic. It's a narrow slice of the applicant pool, and you hear about a few dozen or a few hundred out of literally tens of thousands of IIs, and it makes you crazy. I will be just as guilty when my time comes, so I don't blame you, but please listen to me now as an objective bystander.

Sure, having a few IIs now would be better than not, but it indicates NOTHING that you don't already know -- i.e., there are gaps in your application, you are applying to a relatively top heavy assortment of schools, and you are not eligible for any admission preferences. Unless you are a terrible interviewer, you should have several As before the cycle is over. Maybe not at your dream school, but you are destined to have several excellent choices.

By the way, the shift is largely speculative on the part of a few so-called experts based on what they think should be happening based on the two week delay in the first transmission of applications, the inconceivable inconvenience of having staff work remotely, and the delay in MCAT testing. In the real world, two adcoms at very top schools have reported completed applications are ahead of where they were at comparable times last year, and there is no shift in the cycle.

We know this is the case because we see IIs being reported every day. It is EARLY, just like it was at this time last year!!! I'm not sure about the so-called shift, because 10/15 is still the first date to report acceptances, 3/15 will still be the date to accept at least enough candidates to fill each class, and traffic day will still be 4/30. Are some schools running behind? Probably? So what, it's early either way, so just try to relax. Lots of ups and downs between now and 4/30/21!!

 

[KnightDoc]

I'm sorry I forgot to add! I also have 100-150 hours of shadowing in a variety of roles, which led to conference presentations and publications- first author from potential problems I identified in procedures I observed. The doctors I worked with were quite impressed by it and said as much in their recommendation letters.

Alas, shadowing counts as a lower tier clinical experience apparently.

Not so much. @EdgeTrimmer is right. Above around 50 hours, nobody cares, and there's no "high tier" and "low tier" clinical, any more than being a spectator at a Big 10 football game is "low tier" Division I intercollegiate athletics.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I also have 100-150 hours of shadowing in a variety of roles, which led to conference presentations and publications- first author from potential problems I identified in procedures I observed. The doctors I worked with were quite impressed by it and said as much in their recommendation letters.

That's very impressive, reminds me Good Doctor show.

 

[DoctorFate]

haha thanks. yea I would feel so much more comfortable had I included that one extra clinical experience. Had no idea it was so important when I applied.

@KnightDoc Thank you for the reassurance! What year are you right now? I assumed you were much older by your language.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

@KnightDoc Thank you for the reassurance! What year are you right now? I assumed you were much older by your language.

SDN aged him well, otherwise he is a youngster

 

[KnightDoc]

haha thanks. yea I would feel so much more comfortable had I included that one extra clinical experience. Had no idea it was so important when I applied.

@KnightDoc Thank you for the reassurance! What year are you right now? I assumed you were much older by your language.

Nope, not older. I should be right where you are, but I forced myself into an unplanned gap year due to COVID interruptions to, you guessed it, research and other ECs, plus pushing my MCAT back a few times due to cancellations. This caused me to have to study when I should have been working on secondaries, not having a MCAT score until the middle of August, and have mediocre ECs, including zero research. I decided to take the hit and sit the cycle out rather than take whatever I could this year, and, probably end up being a reapplicant next year anyway.

So, I'm living vicariously through you guys this year. The bad news is I'll have nothing worthwhile to say regarding school X vs. Y based on their virtual lunch menu. The good news is, I've done a ton of research on the process, since I've been obsessively studying it since last year, and any advice I do give will not be biased by having a good or bad experience at any particular school, at least not this year!

 

[DoctorFate]

Damn sounds great. Good luck! If you're interested I'll keep you updated if I manage to land an interview.

 

[KnightDoc]

Damn sounds great. Good luck! If you're interested I'll keep you updated if I manage to land an interview.

I have very little doubt that you will land several interviews. Start panicking if you have nothing by Thanksgiving.

 

[DoctorFate]

By the way, could either of you point me to where it was said II's are coming out early this year?
The only thread I could find was this, where the general consensus seems to be slightly later (and I see you two replied)

Interviews delayed?

II invites seem to be coming out later this year than last. Do you all think this is an accurate assessment? If yes, when should we expect the bulk of invites (and early invites) to come out for T20 schools?

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

By the way, could either of you point me to where it was said II's are coming out early this year?
The only thread I could find was this, where the general consensus seems to be slightly later (and I see you two replied)

Interviews delayed?

II invites seem to be coming out later this year than last. Do you all think this is an accurate assessment? If yes, when should we expect the bulk of invites (and early invites) to come out for T20 schools?

forums.studentdoctor.net

Check school specific threads.

MD Medical School-Specific Discussions (<2020)

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[KnightDoc]

By the way, could either of you point me to where it was said II's are coming out early this year?
The only thread I could find was this, where the general consensus seems to be slightly later (and I see you two replied)

Interviews delayed?

II invites seem to be coming out later this year than last. Do you all think this is an accurate assessment? If yes, when should we expect the bulk of invites (and early invites) to come out for T20 schools?

forums.studentdoctor.net

No one said early -- we said they aren't delayed. @EdgeTrimmer is right. Go to any school specific thread where there seems to be a lot of activity, and you will see people reporting IIs. This has been going on since roughly the end of July.

The first apps were transmitted to schools on July 10th, after a hold by AMCAS to allow them to start to work on the verification backlog and reduce the prejudice to people who were in at the very beginning (May 28th) but were not yet verified by the time apps would ordinarily first be transmitted to schools (end of June) due to the delays. So, of course, IIs that might have gone out in the middle of July in years past were delayed by two weeks, but, for everyone else, things are proceeding pretty much on schedule in the middle of September, other than for the stragglers, who are wishfully thinking there is some big COVID delay in spite of the evidence to the contrary (completed applications up pretty much everywhere as compared to the same time last year).

 

[DoctorFate]

Hi @KnightDoc and @EdgeTrimmer
I ended up with three interviews last cycle. However, I had to withdraw before acceptance (or any other decision) due to two family crises. I reapplied this year, having substantially improved my clinical experience, and so far I have two interviews already, one to an almost T10 school!

Thanks for your advice last time! It turned out to be true. Just wanted to share as I remembered this thread.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I ended up with three interviews last cycle, Temple Rochester and Cornell. However, I had to withdraw before acceptance (or any other decision) due to two family crises. I reapplied this year, having substantially improved my clinical experience, and so far I have two interviews already, one to an almost T10 school!

Thanks for your advice last time! It turned out to be true. Just wanted to share as I remembered this thread.

Sorry to hear about family crises last year. I am surprised that you didn't get more IIs from T10s. Now I need to speculate what's almost T10 school Feel free to DM me if you need any additional input.

 

[candbgirl]

Sorry to hear about family crises last year. I am surprised that you didn't get more IIs from T10s. Now I need to speculate what's almost T10 school Feel free to DM me if you need any additional input.

🤣🤣 11 maybe or 15. All we know is it isn’t T10.

 

[KnightDoc]

Hi @KnightDoc and @EdgeTrimmer
I ended up with three interviews last cycle, Temple Rochester and Cornell. However, I had to withdraw before acceptance (or any other decision) due to two family crises. I reapplied this year, having substantially improved my clinical experience, and so far I have two interviews already, one to an almost T10 school!

Thanks for your advice last time! It turned out to be true. Just wanted to share as I remembered this thread.

I too am very sorry about what happened last cycle, and truly appreciate your coming back with the kind words. The fact that you have two IIs so early is a great sign.

I have a strong feeling that you are going to do very well this cycle, given that you had three IIs last cycle and you are not prejudiced by having been rejected, in addition to the substantially improved ECs and very early IIs. As before, best of luck!!

 

[DoctorFate]

Thank you for the kind words @KnightDoc. Good luck to you as well! I'm not really too prejudiced or anything both because I withdrew before even receiving a decision and because the mistake was entirely mine. Clinical experience is such an obvious thing to have, and everyone advises you to have, that it was entirely my fault for forgetting it. My only reason (very weak) for missing it was that I had planned to be an MD-PhD for much of my undergrad, where I was told research is extremely important and clinicals considerably less so. However, even in that case, I realized I was going to pursue an MD many months before I applied and still didn't pursue clinicals (albeit partly due to COVID).

To be honest though, it seems to be a blessing in disguise that I was unable to attend. My family crises were completely and favorably overcome. Plus, I realize that I really needed a gap year to achieve some personal goals. On top of that, I'll have a job during this year that is absolutely ideal to my career and will let me get several publications.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

@EdgeTrimmer @candbgirl The school is ranked #13 on US News (Pitt), hence almost T10.

Hopefully you will get into T10 in same state this cycle.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Would a new job be sufficient for update? It’s not related to clinical/research at all but I suppose it’s at a somewhat “prestigious” (I cringe at having to use this description but can’t think of a better way to describe it) firm in a front office position? Thanks

I would update maybe a quarter or a half of schools in case it’s not good to send that kind of update (hedging)

 

[KnightDoc]

Would a new job be sufficient for update? It’s not related to clinical/research at all but I suppose it’s at a somewhat “prestigious” (I cringe at having to use this description but can’t think of a better way to describe it) firm in a front office position? Thanks

I would update maybe a quarter or a half of schools in case it’s not good to send that kind of update (hedging)

I would think twice about updating med schools on a prestigious finance job. It's as likely to hurt as help.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

What if I’m covering healthcare/biotech securities