PR recession and PR med schools

[PT-MD PR]

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Is there any reason to worry about the stability of the Puerto Rican medical schools over the next four years due to the severe recession the territory is in? The school I will be attending is private but I'm still a little worried about the trickle down effect of widespread recession with increasing budget cuts. Will the hospitals close next?

 

[slopes23]

Is there any reason to worry about the stability of the Puerto Rican medical schools over the next four years due to the severe recession the territory is in? The school I will be attending is private but I'm still a little worried about the trickle down effect of widespread recession with increasing budget cuts. Will the hospitals close next?

You're being ridiculous. Just stop.

 

[Pasmal]

Looks like it's the country areas that are being hit the hardest. Idk much about PR schools but if they're in urban areas they'd probably be the last affected by any cuts.

 

[Wordead]

You're being ridiculous. Just stop.

Whys it ridiculous? Doesn't seem like an unreasonable concern to me....didn't a school there close just a few years ago?

 

[rsb299]

Whys it ridiculous? Doesn't seem like an unreasonable concern to me....didn't a school there close just a few years ago?

No.

 

[PT-MD PR]

I really hope I am being ridiculous. In fact, I'm sure I am, but I just wanted to see what others thought. I tend to give too much credence to worst case scenarios. And no, no school closed there in the past. SJB lost their LCME license temporarily, then negotiated it back. UPR is having their budget significantly reduced and the students took to the streets last week in protest. I don't assume any medical school closure, public or private, would be taken lightly on an island with a professional exodus problem.

 

[Wordead]

No.

Oh it was just losing accreditation for a bit. Never mind.

 

[W19]

Ponce School of Medicine has some financial issue according to the last report published by the US Department of Education, but I don't think you should be concerned that much even if you will be attending Ponce...

 

[rsb299]

Ponce School of Medicine has some financial issue according to the last report published by the US Department of Education, but I don't think you should be concerned that much even if you will be attending Ponce...

Ponce's administration was taken over by the Arist corporation last fall. Good news financially, though it is yet to be seen what it means academically to be operating under a "for-benefit" (read: for profit) company.

 

[W19]

How will they make money when some of these schools admit <100 students (per MSAR)? People who are attending Ponce should be concerned then...

 

[rsb299]

How will they make money when some of these schools admit <100 students (per MSAR)? People who are attending Ponce should be concerned then...

Why do you say that? The school's financial health has improved greatly over the course of the last several months. The size of the classes do not dictate possible profit margins.

 

[W19]

Why do you say that? The school's financial health has improved greatly over the course of the last several months. The size of the classes do not dictate possible profit margins.

Seriously!

 

[W19]

I think I should retract my above statement since it is a US school... LCME would have been on their tail already if they have shown troubling signs. No reasons to be concerned!

 

[rsb299]

I think I should retract my above statement since it is a US school... LCME would have been on their tail already if they have shown troubling signs. No reasons to be concerned!

I didn't mean to sound at all hostile in my response, by the way. I was genuinely curious about the point you were making. I'm concerned about the consequences corporate ownership of a US medical school will have. Arist is involved with several DO schools as well (at least one of the Touros), which seems to functioning OK at this point, but at the same time I don't really know about any of these situations internally.

 

[W19]

I didn't mean to sound at all hostile in my response, by the way. I was genuinely curious about the point you were making. I'm concerned about the consequences corporate ownership of a US medical school will have. Arist is involved with several DO schools as well (at least one of the Touros), which seems to functioning OK at this point, but at the same time I don't really know about any of these situations internally.

I don't too much about COCA, but LCME seems to be on top on things when it comes to allo schools. I don't think you should be concerned too much if you will be attending Ponce.

 

[rsb299]

I don't too much about COCA, but LCME seems to be on top on things when it comes to allo schools. I don't think you should be concerned too much if you will be attending Ponce.

I'm not sure whether I should feel nervous or relieved that the LCME is competent with its authority. As we saw with SJB, they clearly will not hesitate to punish schools that don't adhere to their standards. I don't predict that Ponce will find themselves in a "cut their losses" scenario at the hands of Arist, but it does seems like a strange choice of school for a US corporation to target. And what will it mean for the quality of the education for students? Full disclosure: I interviewed at Ponce and will likely attend. I was told a lot of promising things during my interview day but I have had very limited contact with current students and I don't know what to think of the new administration.

 

[W19]

@rsb299 If things will go sour, I believe it will take some years... Again, you should not be concerned. Ponce is a good school. I worked with Ponce grad in South FL and they told me it's toe-to-toe with UPR. Their match is also reassuring! If you have another acceptance at a US mainland allo school, you probably should revisit your decision to attend Ponce. If not, go to Ponce.

 

[Lord_Vader]

Stupid question but are PR schools pretty much like Carribean schools?

 

[rsb299]

Stupid question but are PR schools pretty much like Carribean schools?

No. PR schools are LCME accredited United States MD schools.

 

[sazerac]

Stupid question but are PR schools pretty much like Carribean schools?

Not a stupid question, but the answer is a resounding NO.

For one, the PR schools are just as LCME accredited as other U.S. schools, for instance the medical school in Hawaii. For another, the PR schools actually want their graduates to remain and practice on the island.

 

[W19]

Stupid question but are PR schools pretty much like Carribean schools?

Lol...

 

[slopes23]

Do you know what the best thing about Ponce is?



... The highway exit to San Juan.

Full disclosure: I'm from San Juan.

 

[ReeseC]

Do you know what the best thing about Ponce is?



... The highway exit to San Juan.

Full disclosure: I'm from San Juan.

Puh-lease - Ponce is Ponce, and the rest is just parking.

Full Disclosure: I go to Ponce haha

When I was applying a couple years back - all the schools had money issues. In fact, people my cycle were talking about how UCC was in dire straits. Apparently, Ponce was too. Financially and academically I think Ponce is a lot better off under Arist. They seem to want to make it a really great institution, although I feel like the motivation is more financially driven (better school, more prestige, more value) than it is student driven. But it leads to the same ends either way.

The reason that Arist was interested in Ponce was because it's strategically situated between the US and Latin America geographically and culturally.

I have no doubt they'll make it the best school in PR in terms of USMLE, matching, and research.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[slopes23]

Puh-lease - Ponce is Ponce, and the rest is just parking.

Full Disclosure: I go to Ponce haha

When I was applying a couple years back - all the schools had money issues. In fact, people my cycle were talking about how UCC was in dire straits. Apparently, Ponce was too. Financially and academically I think Ponce is a lot better off under Arist. They seem to want to make it a really great institution, although I feel like the motivation is more financially driven (better school, more prestige, more value) than it is student driven. But it leads to the same ends either way.

The reason that Arist was interested in Ponce was because it's strategically situated between the US and Latin America geographically and culturally.

I have no doubt they'll make it the best school in PR in terms of USMLE, matching, and research.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

Lol. Ponce is 36 miles away from San Juan, I doubt that it makes a big difference geographically to Arist, and culturally San Juan is more of a melting pot as it has 2 million of the 4 million population of the whole island.

The fact remains that not all PR med schools are made equal. There are better ones and worse ones, it stands to reason that the worse ones would have more difficulty financially. Having said that, not many schools close in PR due to government support, they just cope with less funds and niceties. UPR is probably the best medical school in PR. But thinking that because of budget deficits they are going to close down teaching hospitals is insanity and not even worth the conversation to explain why it is.

But seriously. Ponce as a city, compared to San Juan, sucks. 😀

 

[ReeseC]

Lol. Ponce is 36 miles away from San Juan, I doubt that it makes a big difference geographically to Arist, and culturally San Juan is more of a melting pot as it has 2 million of the 4 million population of the whole island.

The fact remains that not all PR med schools are made equal. There are better ones and worse ones, it stands to reason that the worse ones would have more difficulty financially. Having said that, not many schools close in PR due to government support, they just cope with less funds and niceties. UPR is probably the best medical school in PR. But thinking that because of budget deficits they are going to close down teaching hospitals is insanity and not even worth the conversation to explain why it is.

But seriously. Ponce as a city, compared to San Juan, sucks. 😀

The fact is that none of the PR medical schools are well off financially as independent institutions. And now, Ponce is no doubt better off than every other school financially. Even el iupi.

You're from the island, so you should know that the general order goes UPR>Ponce>UCC>SJB or UPR>Ponce=UCC>SJB. And now that Ponce is infused with tons of money, I'm positive they will overtake UPR.

 

[slopes23]

The fact is that none of the PR medical schools are well off financially as independent institutions. And now, Ponce is no doubt better off than every other school financially. Even el iupi.

You're from the island, so you should know that the general order goes UPR>Ponce>UCC>SJB or UPR>Ponce=UCC>SJB. And now that Ponce is infused with tons of money, I'm positive they will overtake UPR.

First off, grammar police, it's not "el iupi", it's "la U.P."
Pronounced you pea.
Second, UPR is better not just because it had relatively more money but because it is much more desirable geographically to live in. Means that students prefer to attend there, and professors prefer to live there which is a big factor. It's not for nothing that the San Juan Metro area has 50% of the islands population.

Additionally, being such a large urban city it has a large hospital network that attracts better attendings who see higher acuity cases on a very frequent basis leading to superior clinical training. Money won't change that. Additionally, I think you are over estimating how much money Aris is going to give Ponce and additionally how much that money will actually buy the University. Things are substantially more expensive over there, and there are a lot more bureaucratic hurtles to overcome. And in PR, progress and change move extremely slow.

But continue into oblivion in the pure bliss that is your ignorance.

FWIW, I say that last line with all the love in the world. I love all of PR, and am not trash talking Ponce as a medical school on principle, just as a rivalry sense. Having said that, there is a reason why since the beginning of time San Juan has been the place to be in PR.

 

[ReeseC]

First off, grammar police, it's not "el iupi", it's "la U.P."
Pronounced you pea.
Second, UPR is better not just because it had relatively more money but because it is much more desirable geographically to live in. Means that students prefer to attend there, and professors prefer to live there which is a big factor. It's not for nothing that the San Juan Metro area has 50% of the islands population.

Additionally, being such a large urban city it has a large hospital network that attracts better attendings who see higher acuity cases on a very frequent basis leading to superior clinical training. Money won't change that. Additionally, I think you are over estimating how much money Aris is going to give Ponce and additionally how much that money will actually buy the University. Things are substantially more expensive over there, and there are a lot more bureaucratic hurtles to overcome. And in PR, progress and change move extremely slow.

But continue into oblivion in the pure bliss that is your ignorance.

FWIW, I say that last line with all the love in the world. I love all of PR, and am not trash talking Ponce as a medical school on principle, just as a rivalry sense. Having said that, there is a reason why since the beginning of time San Juan has been the place to be in PR.

Thanks grammar police, you were half right. It should be "la" stupid mistake. But the nickname most certainly is "la IUPI" just google it if you don't believe me.

You have no idea how much Arist investing in this school.

There's no doubt that UPR>Ponce right now, but my point is that with the recent infusion of cash that gap will be closing sooner rather than later. And it's obviously not only for geographic reasons considering UCC and SJB are in the el metro but Ponce is usually considered the better school.

Also, even if it becomes a "better" school than UPR - it still won't make it more desirable because to Puerto Ricans because UPR is SO CHEAP.

Same here with the rivalry - San Jun is lovely.

 

[slopes23]

Ponce is better then UCC and SJB, but thats because they both suck, so that doesn't say much (which is why SJB at one point lost its LCME accredation) There isn't enough of a population with a relatively "higher" income to support all 4 schools in being very good.

You are totally glossing over the geographic part though. Money given to a University won't change the fact that from a cultural perspective people don't want to live in Ponce, most importantly the teachers, but from a student perspective too. According to US census data the San Juan Metro area has a population of 2,617,089, (over 65%) while Ponce has 170,000 people (under 5%). I wonder why that is. Ponce will not see the volume of high acuity cases that UPR hospitals see on a daily basis on this fact alone, not to mention the overall larger and more vast hospital network and pathology profile of their cases. Additionally, Ponce is seen as more of the country side, in not necessarily a great way. Finally, you underestimate how bureaucratic everything is in PR, and how expensive it is to do things.

Moving on, I never said I knew how much Arist was investing in the school.... I just said it sounds like you are overestimating how much they are going to invest how far those investments will go towards making the school more competitive than UPR. Did you know that Arist also owns 2 other Universities one in California, and another in Mexico City (both Alliance International University). They are also looking to buy others to create a "global system" of health science universities. You didn't think that Ponce was the only child, or the first child did you?

Finally, the money Arist invests in Ponce obviously will serve to improve it "helping to close the gap" but there will always be a gap for the reasons I outlined, and I don't see that changing.

FWIW I am not enrolled in a PR medical school. But I am from PR, and used to live there in high school and my parents/family still do. So my rivalry is a cultural one, not a I go to this school you go to that school one --- it just happens to be well founded.

 

[W19]

@slopes23 A quick google search shows SJB is LCME accredited...

 

[slopes23]

@slopes23 A quick google search shows SJB is LCME accredited...

Absolutely correct, apologies, I am busy so I just did a quick search and read how they lost it in 2011, but apparently a US judge vacated this as the LCME did not give SJB enough due process. But there was a period where they lost the accredation even if only briefly and that should be basis enough to point out that saying Ponce being better then UCC or SJB is not a big deal, or basis to say that geographic landscape doesn't play much of a role in UPR's dominance and prominence in PR.

 

[W19]

I don't know too much about PR schools, but I got a friend who is a MS4 in one of these schools... His take is: UPR > Ponce > UCC ~ SJB.

 

[slopes23]

I don't too much about PR schools, but I got a friend who is a MS4 in one of these schools... His take is: UPR > Ponce > UCC ~ SJB.

He's not wrong.

 

[supremus]

To tell you the truth, I would be concerned.

http://www.medicinaysaludpublica.co...-medica-de-la-universidad-central-del-caribe/

 

[PT-MD PR]

To tell you the truth, I would be concerned.

http://www.medicinaysaludpublica.co...-medica-de-la-universidad-central-del-caribe/

Supremus, that doesn't sound good. Definitely pushing my panic button.

So if I have an acceptance at UCC and one of the best DO schools, what would you all recommend? I'm not that interested in OMM which is why I preferred MD in the first place. I'm just worried about something happening in the middle of my four years, especially as the feds don't seem overly helpful right now in regards to PR's economy.

 

[W19]

Supremus, that doesn't sound good. Definitely pushing my panic button.

So if I have an acceptance at UCC and one of the best DO schools, what would you all recommend? I'm not that interested in OMM which is why I preferred MD in the first place. I'm just worried about something happening in the middle of my four years, especially as the feds don't seem overly helpful right now in regards to PR's economy.

I don't think these problems that PR is going thru will affect their med schools that much... However, in that situation one should really take a good look at both school. MD will open more doors according to SDN, but I don't know if PD look at PR school differently. Anyway, I know that that UCC has a 90% step 1 first time passing rate, which is below national average...

 

[PT-MD PR]

I don't think these problems that PR is going thru will affect their med schools that much... However, in that situation one should really take a good look at both school. MD will open more doors according to SDN, but I don't know if PD look at PR school differently. Anyway, I know that that UCC has a 90% step 1 first time passing rate, which is below national average...

Thanks for the reply W19. Were you able to read the link that Supremus posted? It talked about residency faculty not being paid since November and a contract loss with the Dept of Health who owes them $1 million or more. It also talks about the "precarious situation of the academic institution." I'm not sure if this would affect the medical school as well or only the residency program? If some (mostly) unforeseen event were to happen, would the AAMC assist students in finding placement elsewhere as I believe they did when SJB temporarily lost accreditation? Also, I could be wrong, but I was told the USMLE pass rate was 97 or 98% last year. Not sure about years before.

 

[PT-MD PR]

Also, FWIW, at least one PD I asked, said he recommended UCC narrowly over a DO school.

 

[W19]

@PT-MD PR I know the passing rate was 90% in 2012. I guess they did better in 2013. Regardless, these school accepts 60+ students so if a few students fail step1, it makes a huge difference in the passing rate. Residency is somewhat a different entity from the med school itself as you already point out. I think AAMC and LCME would assist you because I was told that many SJB students went to UMiami, Loma Linda and even Nova when LCME eliminated their accreditation.

The PD might be right because if all else being equal between a DO student and UCC student, most PD might pick the UCC student because it's a LCME accredited school.

One anecdote: I worked at a rehab facility that did not hire a DO as medical director because he was a DO. They were afraid that people would not know what a DO is since they had to put his name with title in the lobby. I know he graduated from CCOM in Chicago. They gave my cousin the job because he is a MD even if he did not want the job, and my cousin is a FMG. I guess these things are rare, but they happen...

 

[masaraksh]

...

 

[rsb299]

MCAT: BS 7, PS 9, VR 9, T = 25

OP, maybe just don't go to med school

That is extraordinarily rude, entirely untrue and unfounded, and completely irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[masaraksh]

...

 

[masaraksh]

...

 

[PT-MD PR]

And since when did Puerto Rico become relevant?

Masaraksh, why even make a comment? Are you sure you're posting in the right thread, since your comments came out of nowhere? Nobody mentioned MCAT score at all here and we ARE talking about Puerto Rico.

 

[JuxGiant]

Gonna piggyback on this thread, as I don't feel like needlessly making a new thread for, basically, a yes/no answer.

I took Spanish in high school, and didn't do anything with the language in undergrad (because spanish III was tough!). That said, as I don't have credit hours in Spanish currently, is it plausible for me to apply to certain PR medical schools, with an intention of taking Spanish at an accredited institution? (read: community college or Texas A&M (where I did my undergrad))

For example, if I can achieve those credits of Spanish before class begins in July or August next year, can I apply to a school like Ponce (needs 3 credits of Spanish) or SJB (12 credits)? Maybe I could explain how I would be taking Spanish language classes from 8/15 to 5/16? Or do you think they'll look at my application, and go "ugh, this noob ONLY took Spanish just so he could apply to our school?"

Or do you absolutely NEED to have those Spanish credits already on your undergrad transcript?

Is this a common thing people do? I'm not trying to sound as though taking Spanish is stepping stone or anything - if this is a plausible theory and I get accepted, I'll keep taking Spanish until I'm absolutely fluent.

Disclaimer: I'm not of hispanic or latin origin. I have no ties to PR whatsoever.

 

[JuxGiant]

^ aaaaand I didn't realize this was in the "Medical Student" forum - came to this thread through an SDN link from Google. -_-

(but if someone wanted to answer, that would be appreciated!)

 

[W19]

@JuxGiant A friend of mine attended SJB. He is a diagnostic radiology resident right now in the US mainland, so I know a few stuff about PR schools, and especially SJB. I knew that he CLEP Spanish, but I remember that he said you should have at least 8 credits in your transcript for SJB and the other 4 can be in progress when you apply. I am not sure about Ponce, but if the 3 credit is in progress, they probably will consider your application. Ponce do not accept many out of state applicants; my friend told me that almost half of his class in SJB were from the mainland... You can look into UCC.

 

[PT-MD PR]

Ponce and UCC will be a little tougher on the Spanish requirements but courses can be in progress. I'm not sure about SJB. If you interview at either, your fluency will be tested. At UCC I know you don't have to be truly fluent as in bilingual, but more so adept at written and conversational Spanish. I imagine its similarly or more important at Ponce. The mission at UCC includes serving Hispanic populations on the island AND elsewhere, so you don't have to have ties to the island, but interest in serving the Latin community is important. SJB has a large number of OOS so fluency might not be as important as having the required courses. If you truly want to go to one of those schools, I would send out some emails to the admissions folk so they can start seeing your name and know you're seriously interested. If you're able to, I would also consider a 2-3 month immersion experience in a Spanish Speaking country because it's difficult to gain fluency from classes alone. You won't be fluent, but it will help you tremendously with conversational Spanish. You can do it as a volunteer-learning trip and stay with host families and add it to your app as an EC. And if you don't go to one of those schools, it's still a pretty cool experience. Hope that helps. Good luck!

 

[TOcho118]

For a split second I thought this was a thread about EKGs...

 

[JuxGiant]

@JuxGiant A friend of mine attended SJB. He is a diagnostic radiology resident right now in the US mainland, so I know a few stuff about PR schools, and especially SJB. I knew that he CLEP Spanish, but I remember that he said you should have at least 8 credits in your transcript for SJB and the other 4 can be in progress when you apply. I am not sure about Ponce, but if the 3 credit is in progress, they probably will consider your application. Ponce do not accept many out of state applicants; my friend told me that almost half of his class in SJB were from the mainland... You can look into UCC.

Ponce and UCC will be a little tougher on the Spanish requirements but courses can be in progress. I'm not sure about SJB. If you interview at either, your fluency will be tested. At UCC I know you don't have to be truly fluent as in bilingual, but more so adept at written and conversational Spanish. I imagine its similarly or more important at Ponce. The mission at UCC includes serving Hispanic populations on the island AND elsewhere, so you don't have to have ties to the island, but interest in serving the Latin community is important. SJB has a large number of OOS so fluency might not be as important as having the required courses. If you truly want to go to one of those schools, I would send out some emails to the admissions folk so they can start seeing your name and know you're seriously interested. If you're able to, I would also consider a 2-3 month immersion experience in a Spanish Speaking country because it's difficult to gain fluency from classes alone. You won't be fluent, but it will help you tremendously with conversational Spanish. You can do it as a volunteer-learning trip and stay with host families and add it to your app as an EC. And if you don't go to one of those schools, it's still a pretty cool experience. Hope that helps. Good luck!

Thank you guys, so much! I'll definitely contact each school and see how warm they are to Spanish on transcripts already / in progress.