Practicing acupuncture/herbs in residency

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Hi everyone,

I am an allopathic medical student with a background in TCM hoping to start an integrative medicine practice one day. I was wondering if there are residencies out there would let the resident practice Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) such as acupuncture, herbs, and massage when needed for chronic problems with training.

Thank you!

:love:

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Hi everyone,

I am an allopathic medical student with a background in TCM hoping to start an integrative medicine practice one day. I was wondering if there are residencies out there would let the resident practice Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) such as acupuncture, herbs, and massage when needed for chronic problems with training.

Thank you!

:love:

I know that Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte has an alternative med curriculum that looks cool.
 
Given that there are medical accupuncturists in a variety of specialties, I think it ultimately comes down to two things:
1) whether or not there is an attending who practices accupuncture
2) whether or not they are comfortable with residents performing the treatments (irrespective of your previous experience)

I'm purely guessing but I would not suspect any of the surgical specialties to have a high volume or practioners. I think that your best bet in finding a practioner would be in family medicine, internal medicine, and PM&R.
 
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It doesn't matter where you train. None of that stuff is part of the family medicine residency curriculum.
 
Isn't passing off snake oil (TCM in this case) on patients an ethical problem?
 
Arizona has an integrative medicine fellowship and residency curriculum established w. Andrew Wiles. They have a list of FM residency programs that use their curriculum (there are about 5, Charlotte, NC among them).

Acupuncture would be something you could practice if certified, but I also think, if you are certified already, you would be better served by using your residency time to learn things you don't know.

The reaction against integrative medicine is because of the types who pretend to cure cancer, etc, rather than "integrative medicine". Ideally integrative medicine would be the common sense stuff we all know can alleviate symptoms/prevent problems. We prescribe supplements all the time (fish oil, B12, folate) and "alternative therapies" (PT, anyone? Ever printed out stretching exercises for someone w/ back problems? Ever recommended nasal saline spray or chicken soup?). Unfortunately, a lot of folks who call themselves "naturopaths" or IBM specialists are actually quacks trying to make money with snake oil, which is, of course, totally unregulated, so who knows what is in it.
 
I think it would be difficult to teach EBM and something like TCM with a straight face.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=149

Word.

And Andrew Weil is probably the mother of all quacks although Chopra might give him a run for his money. That there are residency programs in something as stupid as integrative medicine and the best and brightest people our country has to offer (med student and physicians) take it seriously blows my mind.
 
@Cowy- simply antagonizing the original poster looking for honest input isn't very sporting. If you want skew off topic to discuss the merits or uselessness of incorporating CAM/Integrative medicine into FM Residency curriculum you should start a new thread.

You can start by taking issue with this pdf article by the STFM group looking at CAM in Residency training:

http://www.stfm.org/search/results....ch&siteurl=www.stfm.org/search/index.cfm#1055

For the original poster: You'd probably be the most interested in the Santa Rosa, CA program which is not from what I can tell connected to the Arizona group (see below). The above article mentions the 8 programs affiliated with the Arizona group mostly through online web modules. Each program is at a varying level of individual development based off of particular faculty interests. The Beth Israel NYC program has a month incorporated and also actually has acupuncturists on staff in the hospital that will do inpatient consults and sessions. As far as resident involvement I am not aware of much (but fellows could be a different story).

My impression of the Arizona program and affiliates is that they prepare you more to work with other CAM practitioners within the community rather than really allowing you fully explore your own development in a particular modality. I think this is fairly justified as Family Medicine (the broadest field) already has an incredibly difficult job in cramming in all you need to know in 3 years. This being said most programs have between 3-6 months of elective and most program directors I've met seemed like they would be more than willing to let you do a month away in further training in something like acupuncture.

As far as longitudinally doing acupuncture in your outpt clinics the way some programs have setup for Osteopathic Manipulation for DOs-- it would be difficult but not necessarily impossible. You could speak to a program director about it but from his/her point of view there would probably be concern about how much it might take away from your regular clinic duties and ability to fulfill those requirements/responsibilities. In addition there might be some discomfort of having sufficient oversight if there are no faculty that would be involved. It might look something like taking one half-day a month (especially in R2-R3 years, probably not R1 year) to refer all your patients to for acupuncture, perhaps other residents might refer pain/headache pts to you as well (obviously 1x/month not ideal for patients requiring regular sessions).

As far as other programs that already have something started in addition to the Arizona 8 there is also Lawrence, MA and Santa Rosa, CA. Both of those are interesting in that they focus specifically on integrative medicine for underserved populations. I did not see much in the way of R1-R3 involvement at Lawrence for Integrative medicine- seemed more like a fellowship thing, and I am also unsure of the presence of TCM/acupuncture.

Santa Rosa has at least 3 faculty that use supplements as they precept in regular outpt clinic. An herb company in sebastopol (the neighboring town) also donates products that they can distribute to patients. Some previous residents have gotten trained in acupuncture during residency, but the meat of what they do from an integrative point of view is that they have an clinically based integrative medicine fellowship. So after the 3 years you can do an additional year that is focused on you developing a specific modality you want to or already have started to develop (ie you could definitely use your acupuncture in clinic). Their main integrative faculty have specific interest in TCM and Ayurveda I believe. As far as using herb products from Chinese formulas that they themselves are unfamiliar with-- they would still probably want some sort of evidence to back up your use of it before they would sign-off on it.

As mentioned above, PM&R is also another great field with implications for acupuncture although I believe they tend to use it there mostly just for pain indications.

Hope this was helpful. PM me if you have any additional questions.
 
I was wondering if there are residencies out there would let the resident practice Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) such as acupuncture, herbs, and massage when needed for chronic problems with training.

good god, I hope not.
:barf:
 
@Cowy- simply antagonizing the original poster looking for honest input isn't very sporting.

What the original poster (and maybe you too) really needs is a smack upside the head for believing that kind of garbage.

Or they should be strapped to a chair and be forced to read David Gorski until "the stupid" is washed out of their skull.

Either way, it is a serious ethical problem that a soon-to-be physician wants to incorporate something into their practice that has no rational or scientific basis whatsoever. In fact, TCM (and most of "integrative medicine") will probably do next to nothing for the patient except lighten their wallet. That you don't challenge this sort of irrational thinking kind of implicates you in the ridiculousness of it as well.
 
In PM&R, pain management is definitely one of the uses that I have seen. Uses that I have personally seen in clinic are chronic neck, back, migraine, and bronchitis all with positive but variable responses. There is also some research currently being done at my institution with traumatic brain injury and spasticity management.

As physicians or CAM practitioners, we are all ethically bound to make make support both the benefits and limitations of our treatments. I think it's too general to imply that all CAM practioners are unethical because they practice something that most traditional western medicine practitioners do not understand. I do agree that its harder for science to explain some if not most CAM treatments. But at the same time, just because we haven't found a way to study it effectively doesn't mean that the treatment doesn't work. Is it possible we don't understand the mechanism? Yes. Is it possible we haven't found the right model to study proposed mechanisms? Yes.

Lastly, I had 3-4 patients last week who's surgeons told them that their pain would be 90% gone after a lumbar fusion and it clearly wasn't. Who is unethical now? Can I generalize that all spine surgeons are unethical even though there is more "accepted" medical literature?
 
In PM&R, pain management is definitely one of the uses that I have seen. Uses that I have personally seen in clinic are chronic neck, back, migraine, and bronchitis all with positive but variable responses. There is also some research currently being done at my institution with traumatic brain injury and spasticity management.

As physicians or CAM practitioners, we are all ethically bound to make make support both the benefits and limitations of our treatments. I think it's too general to imply that all CAM practioners are unethical because they practice something that most traditional western medicine practitioners do not understand. I do agree that its harder for science to explain some if not most CAM treatments. But at the same time, just because we haven't found a way to study it effectively doesn't mean that the treatment doesn't work. Is it possible we don't understand the mechanism? Yes. Is it possible we haven't found the right model to study proposed mechanisms? Yes.

Lastly, I had 3-4 patients last week who's surgeons told them that their pain would be 90% gone after a lumbar fusion and it clearly wasn't. Who is unethical now? Can I generalize that all spine surgeons are unethical even though there is more "accepted" medical literature?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
(see strawman, tu quoque, argument from ignorance)

________________________________________________________________

Evidence-based medicine doesn't necessarily require that you know how a treatment works. It does, however, require that you have evidence that it does work.

That is what's lacking for most of this "alternative" medicine. If it could show effectiveness versus placebo in properly run studies, it wouldn't be alternative any more.
 
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In fact, TCM (and most of "integrative medicine") will probably do next to nothing for the patient except lighten their wallet. That you don't challenge this sort of irrational thinking kind of implicates you in the ridiculousness of it as well.

What the OP can probably tell you is that many of his TCM clients are those who have not been helped by allopathic medicine. I've noticed the same thing in other acupuncture clinics. And patients wouldn't show up more than once if they were not seeing improvement, IMHO.
 
Given that there are medical accupuncturists in a variety of specialties, I think it ultimately comes down to two things:
1) whether or not there is an attending who practices accupuncture
2) whether or not they are comfortable with residents performing the treatments (irrespective of your previous experience)

I'm purely guessing but I would not suspect any of the surgical specialties to have a high volume or practioners. I think that your best bet in finding a practioner would be in family medicine, internal medicine, and PM&R.[/QUOT

yea I totally agree, I pretty much have narrowed it down to those 3.. it's just hard to figure out which programs has that..

I am also not sure whether I should make this statement during my residency application process, I don't want to risk having too many programs reject me because of this..
 
Isn't passing off snake oil (TCM in this case) on patients an ethical problem?

Hi, as far as I know (lived in china for over 15 years with multiple preceptors practices TCM and worked part time in an acupuncture for over 10 years in the states and took one full year in learning about theories of TCM), I believe passing off snake oil is not one of the modalities that's commonly used. TCM based on over 2,000 years of clinical data.

I realize TCM practice doesn't currently have the evidence to support its efficacy, but have observed it's effects on patients, I choose to practice it for its efficacy in chronic medical issues and its low side effect profile.

How much we've done in western medicine that's based on well grounded evidence? How many of the studies have screwed results because its funding sources? How many conditions that are deemed to be iatrogenic?! How's that not an ethical problem?
 
Arizona has an integrative medicine fellowship and residency curriculum established w. Andrew Wiles. They have a list of FM residency programs that use their curriculum (there are about 5, Charlotte, NC among them).

Acupuncture would be something you could practice if certified, but I also think, if you are certified already, you would be better served by using your residency time to learn things you don't know.

------------

Your advice does make a lot of sense as well.. I will def have to chew on this for awhile longer.. Thank you!
 
@Cowy- simply antagonizing the original poster looking for honest input isn't very sporting. If you want skew off topic to discuss the merits or uselessness of incorporating CAM/Integrative medicine into FM Residency curriculum you should start a new thread.

You can start by taking issue with this pdf article by the STFM group looking at CAM in Residency training:

http://www.stfm.org/search/results....ch&siteurl=www.stfm.org/search/index.cfm#1055

For the original poster: You'd probably be the most interested in the Santa Rosa, CA program which is not from what I can tell connected to the Arizona group (see below). The above article mentions the 8 programs affiliated with the Arizona group mostly through online web modules. Each program is at a varying level of individual development based off of particular faculty interests. The Beth Israel NYC program has a month incorporated and also actually has acupuncturists on staff in the hospital that will do inpatient consults and sessions. As far as resident involvement I am not aware of much (but fellows could be a different story).

My impression of the Arizona program and affiliates is that they prepare you more to work with other CAM practitioners within the community rather than really allowing you fully explore your own development in a particular modality. I think this is fairly justified as Family Medicine (the broadest field) already has an incredibly difficult job in cramming in all you need to know in 3 years. This being said most programs have between 3-6 months of elective and most program directors I've met seemed like they would be more than willing to let you do a month away in further training in something like acupuncture.

As far as longitudinally doing acupuncture in your outpt clinics the way some programs have setup for Osteopathic Manipulation for DOs-- it would be difficult but not necessarily impossible. You could speak to a program director about it but from his/her point of view there would probably be concern about how much it might take away from your regular clinic duties and ability to fulfill those requirements/responsibilities. In addition there might be some discomfort of having sufficient oversight if there are no faculty that would be involved. It might look something like taking one half-day a month (especially in R2-R3 years, probably not R1 year) to refer all your patients to for acupuncture, perhaps other residents might refer pain/headache pts to you as well (obviously 1x/month not ideal for patients requiring regular sessions).

As far as other programs that already have something started in addition to the Arizona 8 there is also Lawrence, MA and Santa Rosa, CA. Both of those are interesting in that they focus specifically on integrative medicine for underserved populations. I did not see much in the way of R1-R3 involvement at Lawrence for Integrative medicine- seemed more like a fellowship thing, and I am also unsure of the presence of TCM/acupuncture.

Santa Rosa has at least 3 faculty that use supplements as they precept in regular outpt clinic. An herb company in sebastopol (the neighboring town) also donates products that they can distribute to patients. Some previous residents have gotten trained in acupuncture during residency, but the meat of what they do from an integrative point of view is that they have an clinically based integrative medicine fellowship. So after the 3 years you can do an additional year that is focused on you developing a specific modality you want to or already have started to develop (ie you could definitely use your acupuncture in clinic). Their main integrative faculty have specific interest in TCM and Ayurveda I believe. As far as using herb products from Chinese formulas that they themselves are unfamiliar with-- they would still probably want some sort of evidence to back up your use of it before they would sign-off on it.

As mentioned above, PM&R is also another great field with implications for acupuncture although I believe they tend to use it there mostly just for pain indications.

Hope this was helpful. PM me if you have any additional questions.


oh wow you answered so many of my questions! I probably didn't need to start from the first reply and answer this one by one. Thank you so much for the information and sound advice~ I am definitely interested in the Santa Rosa program and have been reading about them for awhile, but this definitely was the most useful. I wonder if I could do an elective there next year.. the application for away electives hasn't started yet but I will def look into that.

Thank you again! :thumbup:
 
Hi, as far as I know (lived in china for over 15 years with multiple preceptors practices TCM and worked part time in an acupuncture for over 10 years in the states and took one full year in learning about theories of TCM), I believe passing off snake oil is not one of the modalities that's commonly used. TCM based on over 2,000 years of clinical data.

I realize TCM practice doesn't currently have the evidence to support its efficacy, but have observed it's effects on patients, I choose to practice it for its efficacy in chronic medical issues and its low side effect profile.

How much we've done in western medicine that's based on well grounded evidence? How many of the studies have screwed results because its funding sources? How many conditions that are deemed to be iatrogenic?! How's that not an ethical problem?

First of all---that is an ethical problem. When bad studies are done, hopefully it's the minority of cases, but they should be fought just as hard as anything else. Pseudoscience is pseudoscience, no matter who's pushing it.

The difference is, when "western" (read---based on current scientific understanding---remember that a lot of this is actually developed in eastern countries nowadays) medicine is based on shoddy evidence, or worse, shown convincingly to have no effect beyond placebo (as acupuncture has been), ethical practitioners will stop incorporating that form of treatment into their medical practice. Is there corruption? Yes. Is there conflict of interest? Yes. The difference is, in our system treatments at least have to pretend that they are evidence-based. If they were to come out and just say "well, we know there's no evidence backing this, but we're going to do it anyway and charge people for it", heads would ROLL. That's because they have standards, and people have to at least pretend to meet them.

What you're proposing to do is entirely different. You're basically saying, "hey, I know I have basically no evidence to show that this does anything at all, but I'm going to go ahead and use it anyway and have people pay me as a doctor to do it". And that is both wrong in my subjective opinion and objectively against medical professional ethics.

Now, here's my deal: if you want to pay for your own "training" in TCM and open up a free acupuncture clinic in your spare time, go right ahead. It's your time and theirs and you're free to do with it what you want. But when you're talking about using federal money to fund your learning this stuff in a residency that's supposed to be teaching you real medicine, and then making a career out of using your MD/DO title as a source of credibility for charging desperate, gullible people for treatment that's no better than what they could be getting from a hobo with a bag of sugar pills, you're going to have to expect to take some criticism.
 
once you start seeing more patients you will understand

No, once I start seeing some more studies I will understand. Unstructured personal observation and anecdotal evidence mean absolutely nothing. The scientific method is used for a reason. I am terribly sorry that you are not being taught this in medical school, both for your sake and for that of your future patients.
 
In PM&R, pain management is definitely one of the uses that I have seen. Uses that I have personally seen in clinic are chronic neck, back, migraine, and bronchitis all with positive but variable responses. There is also some research currently being done at my institution with traumatic brain injury and spasticity management.

As physicians or CAM practitioners, we are all ethically bound to make make support both the benefits and limitations of our treatments. I think it's too general to imply that all CAM practioners are unethical because they practice something that most traditional western medicine practitioners do not understand. I do agree that its harder for science to explain some if not most CAM treatments. But at the same time, just because we haven't found a way to study it effectively doesn't mean that the treatment doesn't work. Is it possible we don't understand the mechanism? Yes. Is it possible we haven't found the right model to study proposed mechanisms? Yes.

Lastly, I had 3-4 patients last week who's surgeons told them that their pain would be 90% gone after a lumbar fusion and it clearly wasn't. Who is unethical now? Can I generalize that all spine surgeons are unethical even though there is more "accepted" medical literature?

agreed.. I am not saying CAM should be in place of western medicine; it's just before patients are offered surgery that cost tens and thousands of dollars with unknown effects, it wouldn't hurt to try something people in other places in the world have used for thousands of years with good result. Or those people who has to live on chronic pain killers daily still with 8/10 pain.. it is so sad..

unfortunately the effects of TCM like a lot of other CAM modalities is largely based on practitioner's experience.. I agree there are a lot of quackeries out there doing this for money and that's why before you pay for the service you should do some research and find someone with good background and experience.
 
No, once I start seeing some more studies I will understand. Unstructured personal observation and anecdotal evidence mean absolutely nothing. The scientific method is used for a reason. I am terribly sorry that you are not being taught this in medical school, both for your sake and for that of your future patients.

here is some useful readings for you from NIH and AAMA:

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction.htm

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/articles/nccaminfo.html#2

you might not have as much time to read about this if you start medical school..
 
"Ter Reit, G., Kleijnen, J., and Knipschild, P.
Acupuncture and Chronic Pain: A Criteria-Based Meta-Analysis

A literature search revealed 51 controlled clinical studies on the effectiveness of acupuncture in chronic pain. These studies were reviewed using a list of 18 predefined methodological criteria. A maximum of 100 points for study design could be earned in four main categories: (a) comparability of prognosis, (b) adequate intervention, (c) adequate effect measurement and (d) data presentation. The quality of even the better studies proved to be mediocre. No study earned more than 62% of the maximum score. The results from the better studies (greater than or equal to 50% of the maximum score) are highly contradictory. The efficacy of acupuncture in the treatment of chronic pain remains doubtful."

This was the abstract of one of the studies cited on the NCCAM website you just linked me to. When even the prime pushers of this stuff can't find anything better to support their goods with than this, you know you're in trouble.

I skimmed through a few of the others. Couldn't find anything, anywhere with both positive results and a placebo group. Didn't look through them all, didn't want to spend the time. Don't think I would have found anything, though if you've got one for me I'll read it.
 
I do remember reading the abstract for this And it's hard not to say that it doesn't work. That being said some people do see a benefit. How do you explain this phenomenon? Placebo? Natural course? Mechanism of action? Poor patient selection?

I actually disagree that understanding mechanism of action doesn't make a difference when trying to interpret EBM. How do you know that your design is correct otherwise?
 
I do remember reading the abstract for this And it's hard not to say that it doesn't work. That being said some people do see a benefit. How do you explain this phenomenon? Placebo? Natural course? Mechanism of action? Poor patient selection?

Placebo works for me (natural course falls under that umbrella).

I actually disagree that understanding mechanism of action doesn't make a difference when trying to interpret EBM. How do you know that your design is correct otherwise?

Of course it makes a difference: it's better to know how something works than not, for a lot of reasons. But it's not a requirement in a practical sense---if something is proven to work you use it whether you know how it works or not. When you're treating sick people your primary concern is that what you're doing is effective.
 
I am not going to pursue the "Is Integrative Medicine/CAM/acupuncture legitimate?" argument.

To reply to the OP, I interviewed at a number of FM residencies this year where my interest in Integrative Medicine was welcomed and where there were opportunities to do electives or even fellowships in IM. These included Boston Medical Center, Portland Maine, University of Wisconsin, Univ of Michigan, Univ of Vermont, UMass Worcester and Fitchburg.

The website of the American Board of Integrative Holistic Medicine has a list of institutes that have fellowships in IM - I'm sure that any residency associated with these institutes would have opportunities to study IM at least in electives. A quick Google search on "family medicine residency integrative medicine" brings up a long list of residencies that have IM interests, electives, CAM health centers attached to the hospital and so on.

If this is something you are interested in, there are an increasing number of opportunities to explore it, as more and more attendings and residents become qualified in the field.
 
First of all---that is an ethical problem. When bad studies are done, hopefully it's the minority of cases, but they should be fought just as hard as anything else. Pseudoscience is pseudoscience, no matter who's pushing it.

The difference is, when "western" (read---based on current scientific understanding---remember that a lot of this is actually developed in eastern countries nowadays) medicine is based on shoddy evidence, or worse, shown convincingly to have no effect beyond placebo (as acupuncture has been), ethical practitioners will stop incorporating that form of treatment into their medical practice. Is there corruption? Yes. Is there conflict of interest? Yes. The difference is, in our system treatments at least have to pretend that they are evidence-based. If they were to come out and just say "well, we know there's no evidence backing this, but we're going to do it anyway and charge people for it", heads would ROLL. That's because they have standards, and people have to at least pretend to meet them.

The following is in regards only to what is written above, as I don't have much interest in addressing the other parts (I've commented on similar issues elsewhere): you will be sorely disappointed when you realize how much crap medical evidence (not even a "minority") is out there and how utterly resistant practitioners are to giving up those things that have no evidence but a passionate belief behind them.
 
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The following is in regards only to what is written above, as I don't have much interest in addressing the other parts (I've commented on similar issues elsewhere): you will be sorely disappointed when you realize how much crap medical evidence (not even a "minority" is out there and how utterly resistant practitioners are to giving up those things that have no evidence but a passionate belief behind them.

Yeah, I probably will.
 
I bet you could teach what you know as an elective in a residency program. I am looking for a program that I could learn acupuncture.
 
here is some useful readings for you from NIH and AAMA:

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction.htm

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/articles/nccaminfo.html#2

you might not have as much time to read about this if you start medical school..

If you take meridans seriously then the next time you make it down to your medical school's financial aid office you should ask for your money back because they clearly haven't taught you the difference between what is real and what isn't.
 
If you take meridans seriously then the next time you make it down to your medical school's financial aid office you should ask for your money back because they clearly haven't taught you the difference between what is real and what isn't.

So humble and unassuming... the signs of true wisdom :)
 
So humble and unassuming... the signs of true wisdom :)

If you are so "unassuming" that you are unable to call TCM what is really is then I have some timeshare to sell you.

Come on man, meridians? Reasonable as a hypothesis and theory of disease (about 200 years ago), we have since learned that you cannot, in fact, stick a needle in someone's butt and expect to cure their CHF (or any other disease). The fact that you take it as something more than just a cheap trick indicates your inability to think rationally and critically.
 
If you are so "unassuming" that you are unable to call TCM what is really is then I have some timeshare to sell you.

Come on man, meridians? Reasonable as a hypothesis and theory of disease (about 200 years ago), we have since learned that you cannot, in fact, stick a needle in someone's butt and expect to cure their CHF (or any other disease). The fact that you take it as something more than just a cheap trick indicates your inability to think rationally and critically.

hehe.. this thread is becoming more and more amusing. It was not my intention to discuss whether TCM works or not but to seek some information/advice from experienced people with TCM in residencies. I think the more we learn about the human body the more we realize how little we really understand it.

I appreciate the inputs and all I can say is I think with more patient exposure, you will realize medicine is as much of an art as a science.
 
I bet you could teach what you know as an elective in a residency program. I am looking for a program that I could learn acupuncture.

I am looking at a program where you can spend a month in a very good hospital in China. I've spent a couple of summers there. It's the hospital mentioned in this short documentary on stroke rehab.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSJLn7AKGY0&feature=related

Hopefully I can go there either later this year or next spring. Lemme know if you are interested in more info. =)
 
The following is in regards only to what is written above, as I don't have much interest in addressing the other parts (I've commented on similar issues elsewhere): you will be sorely disappointed when you realize how much crap medical evidence (not even a "minority") is out there and how utterly resistant practitioners are to giving up those things that have no evidence but a passionate belief behind them.

word!
 
hehe.. this thread is becoming more and more amusing. It was not my intention to discuss whether TCM works or not but to seek some information/advice from experienced people with TCM in residencies. I think the more we learn about the human body the more we realize how little we really understand it.

I appreciate the inputs and all I can say is I think with more patient exposure, you will realize medicine is as much of an art as a science.

I think I can answer your question better than most since I also was a practicing Acupuncturist and TCM practitioner prior to starting med school. I found many program directors and faculty at family medicine residencies very receptive to my background in TCM & Acupuncture. There are the residencies affiliated with University of Arizona's program in Integrative Medicine which you should look at first since they will by their very nature look favorably on your background. I have interviewed at three of these locations and will be ranking two of them top 5 on my match list. Im not going to give names of specific programs but just search the Univ of Arizona site. Good Luck!
 
To the original poster:

Wilson Memorial Hospital Family Medicine Residency Program in Johnson City NY (part of UHS) currently offers an acupuncture program affiliated with the Helms Medical Acupuncture course. The course is currently being offered every 2 years and has been specifically structured to the residency program (i.e., there are 2 classes to attend, the rest is self study - videos, texts, etc.). Cost of the course is reduced during residency. We have an acupuncture clinic on-site and have 2 attendings supervising during those hours. My guess is that with your backround in TCM/acupuncture, you would be allowed to practice acupuncture under the tutelage of the attendings - not sure if licensure would be an issue or not. I'm looking to start the course this year, so I cannot give specifics. You can contact the program or look for the residency on its website/facebook for more answers. A few residents have completed the course and I'm sure would be willing to answer any questions. Hope this helps.
 
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I think I can answer your question better than most since I also was a practicing Acupuncturist and TCM practitioner prior to starting med school. I found many program directors and faculty at family medicine residencies very receptive to my background in TCM & Acupuncture. There are the residencies affiliated with University of Arizona's program in Integrative Medicine which you should look at first since they will by their very nature look favorably on your background. I have interviewed at three of these locations and will be ranking two of them top 5 on my match list. Im not going to give names of specific programs but just search the Univ of Arizona site. Good Luck!

wow that's so cool~ you are wayy more advanced than I am.. I have really no clinical experience actually doing acupuncture.. mostly observed.. yay for meeting someone with similar interest! :thumbup:

I was planning on applying for most of them.. i've been looking on that site for some time now hehe.. but how do u know if the program really offers true TCM or just medical acupuncture.. sometimes is hard to tell how extensive the program is from reading the website.. any suggestions?? =)
 
To the original poster:

Wilson Memorial Hospital Family Medicine Residency Program (part of UHS)currently offers an acupuncture program affiliated with the Helms Medical Acupuncture course. The course is currently being offered every 2 years and has been specifically structured to the residency program (i.e., there are 2 classes to attend, the rest is self study - videos, texts, etc.). Cost of the course is reduced during residency. We have an acupuncture clinic on-site and have 2 attendings supervising during those hours. My guess is that with your backround in TCM/acupuncture, you would be allowed to practice acupuncture under the tutelage of the attendings - not sure if licensure would be an issue or not. I'm looking to start the course this year, so I cannot give specifics. You can contact the program or look for the residency on its website/facebook for more answers. A few residents have completed the course and I'm sure would be willing to answer any questions. Hope this helps.

I am having a hard time finding the link but I will keep this in mind.. sounds pretty cool~! thanks! =)
 
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