Pre-Clinical Years: US vs Melbourne

[freshclay]

I'm an American graduate-entry student in Semester 2 at Melbourne. It's a couple weeks into the semester and I wanted ask knowledgable people about the curriculum similarities/differences in Melbourne vs US in the pre-clinical semesters.

I'm somewhat concerned because we have relatively fewer contact hours (~12-14 per week). My friends who are in various US medical schools have around twice as much. Both systems utilize PBL. I realize that Melbourne expects a lot of time to be spent studying outside of class, but I'm curious about the competency at the end of the first two years. I gather from the forums that doctors from AUS who go to the US are just as good as their US-trained counterparts, but with the difference in contact hours I'm beginning to have the slightest of doubts. Is the difference in contact hours made up later?

These are just honest feelings... they may be premature, but if someone can allay or confirm them, it would be appreciated.

Thanks!

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[craig_rt]

From what I have gathered you cannot compare what happens in a particular year at an Oz uni to a US uni. You can't even compare intern years etc. What you can compare is the finished product. So yes, at the end the doctors are similar, but the process is different. From what I have read there is more that is learned in the uni days in the US, and more is learned in specialty training in Oz. So, if you do uni in Oz but want to back to the US for intern etc then you may feel a bit behind the 8-ball. But if you stay in Oz for all training and then go back you will be fine.

Craig

 

[d.a.n.]

Hi there... My friend is in his first Clinical year at St Vincent's Hospital, he's done his 2.5 years of lectures and research year at Melbourne Uni...

This is what he had to say

'at the end of 2 years you don't know much more than merely just hearing medical jargon without knowing what they mean. the new course with 5 lectures is crap and you don't know any anatomy, take it from me i'm a 4th year who doesn't know anything and has passed everything. lol its ur fault for coming to melbourne. Tough. but if u want to feel better, melbourne IS crap, but its still better than the other unis becuase they teach u how to spell 'ana-tomy' and 'physio-logy' unlike the other medical courses in australia'

I'm sure he'd be willing to go on for a bit longer... I guess you can PM me for more info to talk to him...

 

[pitman]

Your "friend" is a pompous ass. And if he's only heard medical jargon after two years, I doubt he's ever shown up to PBL or any clinical training. Come to think of it, why would anyone want more opinion from such a person who doesn't respect his (supposedly illiterate) associates or take his own training seriously?

Really now...

-pitman

 

[spherical]

I think everyone comes to this realization -- some sooner, some later. You should have doubts. The difference in hours probably is made up somewhere after graduation. (Internal medicine training generally twice as long in Australia as in the US.) Of course, this is problematic for those wanting to return to the US after graduation. Are 4 year Australian programs equivalent to 4 year US programs? NO. I would encourage to spend some of you vacation time or electives in the US (as early as possible) so that you can see firsthand the situation. I think it's more than a difference in number of contact hours but the quality of the hours as well.

I'm an American graduate-entry student in Semester 2 at Melbourne. It's a couple weeks into the semester and I wanted ask knowledgable people about the curriculum similarities/differences in Melbourne vs US in the pre-clinical semesters.

I'm somewhat concerned because we have relatively fewer contact hours (~12-14 per week). My friends who are in various US medical schools have around twice as much. Both systems utilize PBL. I realize that Melbourne expects a lot of time to be spent studying outside of class, but I'm curious about the competency at the end of the first two years. I gather from the forums that doctors from AUS who go to the US are just as good as their US-trained counterparts, but with the difference in contact hours I'm beginning to have the slightest of doubts. Is the difference in contact hours made up later?

These are just honest feelings... they may be premature, but if someone can allay or confirm them, it would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[spherical]

Hi d.a.n.

Thanks for the input. I am sure many people will be interested in contacting your friend. He is correct in pointing out that Melbourne is probably the strongest school. I graduated from an Australian school and I share his sentiments. Mostly "jargon" and looking things up. My opinion is that Australian medical schools are not sufficient preparation for a medical career in the US. "Crap" is probably a good way to put it. And expensive "crap" at that.

But the earlier one realizes this the better because you can make plans to prepare yourself for the situation. For the USMLE, a number of the commercial prep courses offer longer more intensive programs for IMGs. Also, you can do a year observership at some US hospitals following graduation (this is not paid but has really opened up doors for some). Then there is the AMA Fifth Pathway program where you leave your foreign school prior to "preinternship" and spend a structured year in a US hospital. In this case, you do not receive your degree from your Australian school but instead you get a "certification" recognized in all 50 US states http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9306.html . You can do similar one year programs after graduation but you will not be eligible for the certificate once you have a degree.

That you are on to this early is a good sign!

Hi there... My friend is in his first Clinical year at St Vincent's Hospital, he's done his 2.5 years of lectures and research year at Melbourne Uni...

This is what he had to say

'at the end of 2 years you don't know much more than merely just hearing medical jargon without knowing what they mean. the new course with 5 lectures is crap and you don't know any anatomy, take it from me i'm a 4th year who doesn't know anything and has passed everything. lol its ur fault for coming to melbourne. Tough. but if u want to feel better, melbourne IS crap, but its still better than the other unis becuase they teach u how to spell 'ana-tomy' and 'physio-logy' unlike the other medical courses in australia'

I'm sure he'd be willing to go on for a bit longer... I guess you can PM me for more info to talk to him...

 

[pitman]

Same old song from spheroid...

1) If you really can't bring it upon yourself to study for the USMLE like normal ppl successfully do, then you aren't cut out for school in Oz.

2) Saying that all one learns is "jargon" is a crock. Yeah, a whole nation is pumping out tools who know nothing except jargon, yet the rest of the world values its docs. Stop making crap up.

3) Spending time in the US doing clinical work is advised, not because it's "better" (clinical exposure here is fine), but b.c. many res programs require it of all IMGs. So do several rotations in the US, as many students do. Both Flinders and UQ allow this; if someone who actually has first-hand knowledge would like to comment on other schools, please do so that others can assess those particular claims.

There are two "hurdles" that all IMGs must jump in order to return: USMLE and US rotations. The former requires extra studying by the motivated people who come here (Oz doesn't teach to the USMLE), the latter is wholly non-unique and is done routinely by n american students in Oz. I can't speak for spherical's alma (can't say whether spherical ever said a damned thing about where he supposedly got edubacated, maybe b.c. it'd then be falsifyable? ), but would sure like to hear any SPECIFICS he may want to contribute about anything he presumes to know about that's not contradicted by everyone else.

 

[pitman]

In case you had any doubts about spherical's lack of genuineness:

spherical pretending to know something about specific schools (where'd you say you went again?):
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2771780#post2771780

Jibber jabber, mouth on fire:
(aka, a little forethought might have held your tongue of presumptuous scathing rhetoric)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2793782#post2793782

More jibber jabber from a guy whose changing accounts never get more than a dozen or so posts :
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2775177#post2775177


Of course, once cornered he cuts and runs before returning weeks later feigning ignorance of all the rebuttals made to his incessant slandering!

 

[craig_rt]

My opinion is that Australian medical schools are not sufficient preparation for a medical career in the US.

Well, Australian schools don't prepare you to pass the US tests, but passing tests is completely different from practicing medicine.

Craig

 

[Retinamark]

Well, Australian schools don't prepare you to pass the US tests, but passing tests is completely different from practicing medicine.

Craig

10 people I know from my medical school group sat the USMLE steps I & II & all of us passed, with most people being way above average & back in the days when they gave you your percentile rank there were 3 or 4 of us in the very high 90's. I don't want to brag, but it really annoys me when people say that Australian schools don't prepare you for the USMLE. They don't tell you what questions will be on the exam, but they teach you medicine properly & with this knowledge it is possible to score very highly on the USMLE.

 

[sjkpark]

Well, Australian schools don't prepare you to pass the US tests, but passing tests is completely different from practicing medicine.

Craig

Exactly.

I'll ask another question. Let's flip the coin.

Do you think an average American medical school will prepare you well for a career in medicine in Australia, more so than Australian medical schools?

If you want to practise medicine in US, go to US medical school. It's that simple.

 

[Retinamark]

Exactly.

I'll ask another question. Let's flip the coin.

Do you think an average American medical school will prepare you well for a career in medicine in Australia, more so than Australian medical schools?

If you want to practise medicine in US, go to US medical school. It's that simple.

I totally agree, that's just common sense.
But that does not mean that one system is better than the other. If you want to practice medicine in Australia, you are better off going to an Australian medical school & if you want to practice in the US, you are better off training in the US. But that doesn't mean you can't do it the other way around if you wanted to for some reason.

 

[craig_rt]

Do you think an average American medical school will prepare you well for a career in medicine in Australia, more so than Australian medical schools?

Either course will prepare you to treat people. The difference, I guess, is how well you can work within the respective systems. People are people, illnesses are illnesses, the medicine is the same. What is different are the systems. Going through the American system will prepare you to work in the American system. Going through the Australian system will prepare you to work in the Australian system. The medicine is the same.

Craig

 

[pitman]

I sound like a broken record here, but as the topic does keep coming up...

It's an "all else being equal" thing -- IF all else is equal, then if one wants to go to the US to practice, then it's "better" to train in the US (i.e., you'll be in a better position to practice in the US, either b.c. you'll be studying specifically for the USMLE in order to get residency, or you will have done your residency in the US and thus won't need to do extra training to practice there).

But all else is never equal, and how much it's "better" is definable only by the individual, as many come here for med with their interests in Oz (lifestyle, philosophy of med, family, $, etc.) outweighing the extra hurdle of having to study for the USMLE.

 

[dr-gee]

if you want to do it, you can. i studied alone, with the help of forums like prep4usmle, and kaplan qbank.

don't listen to people who tell you negative crap like unimelb teaches no anatomy. remember the course is longer in aus than overseas, and many components are much BETTER taught here than there.

yes there are differences - but don't worry. if you're good, you'll do well whereever you are.

good luck