Pre-Med Advisor's thoughts on Pharm.D

[Monkeyguts]

Check this out. I informed my pre-med advisor that I was enrolled in the College of Pharmacy at my school to work towards a Pharm.D. She says (this is verbatim mind you),

"Well, that's fine....it won't preclude you from doing an MD down the road when you get tired of working at the local Safeway. I just hope you won't mind squandering 4 years of your life working towards a degree with limited opportunity."

Needless to say, it was a tad offensive and amusing at the same time. I couldn't believe what a B*tch she was. Anyone else have a similar experience?

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[chunkyb]

That's too bad that your academic advisor is so ignorant like that.

I think that this kind of snubbing is quite common, both in and out of the pharmacy. Many people have said stuff like, "Oh, you want to be a "pill-counter" and blah blah blah"----pharmacy is so boring." I usually try to educate people about pharmacy but sometimes when I feel that there's no point to it at all I just chuckle and reply," I guess it must piss you off that a 'pill-counter' makes way more money than you".

A few months ago, an engineering professor from my university visited the pharmacy. During my discussion with him about school, he remarked bitterly, "I am a professor of ENGINEERING---I didn't study this pharmacy Mickey-Mouse kind of science".


A lot of people think that they're smarter and/or better than others---especially people who have been through school for a long time. Let them think what they want about pharmacy. If you're happy with yourself who gives a $hit about what others say and think.

I would definitely pursue the PharmD., even if you're med-keen. This is not something that will hold you back from meds.
You will learn a lot and be ahead of the others. More importantly, you will have a professional degree rather than just a bachelor of science that will get you nowhere in life. With med tuition so high, you could always work for a year or two to help with your student loans. Pharmacy is NOT a waste of time. Negative attitudes about other people and things IS a waste of time.

Medicine itself not all that it's worked up to be. A lot of doctors are unhappy both personally and professionally. Many of my friends went the med route and don't seem much better off than the pharm kids.

Ironically, those who talked down about pharmacy in the past are actually regretful that they didn't pursue pharmacy before. These lawyers, engineers, IT programmers, teachers, and 'business' people wished that they could do it all over again and do.........pharmacy.

Be humble in life no matter who or where you are and success and happiness will chase you.

 

[jdpharmd?]

yes, I had almost the exact same experience. I think that part of it comes from their unfamiliarity with pharmacy as a profession, and pharmacy school curriculum. My advisor kept asking me why I hadn't taken the MCAT yet, and I swear that she asked 3 or 4 times in one meeting. I insisted that I didn't need the MCAT for pharmacy school and it was like she was pretending that she didn't hear me. On top of that, my undergrad advisors were never doctors or anything, so I never knew how much weight to give their opinion. One, in particular, was working on her M.S. in zoology or something. I counldn't really figure out how they were supposed to know what was best for me, having no experience with any professional health school or career.

Jd

 

[Brill]

It seems like medical school acceptance rates is one of the things that undergrad institutions like to advertise. Is it possible that some of these pre-health advisors push (or are pressured to push) students that they think would have a good shot at medical school to go that route? I've always wondered that. I know I've seen the opposite where the pre-health advisor has discouraged someone who was a below average candidate from applying to medical school.

Although, I had originially told my pre-health advisor that I was considering medical school. When I told him I was going the pharmacy route instead he just wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing it because I didn't think I could get into medical school. After I ensured him that I was not, he never once tried to discourage me about the decision I made.

I think it's sick that someone in that position would insult a student's chosen career path like that. Not only does it show a great deal of immaturity, but it also shows a lot of ignorance on their part.

 

[Monkeyguts]

Well, I thought it sad and hilarious at the same time.

First, it was sad because I'm not sure how many potential students she had driven away from the field of pharmacy due to her attitude. I am a little bit older and have the experience to know not to follow blindly what people tell me, but I really feel for those students who are just starting out and encounter this lady.

Second, I found it very hilarious because I was too dumbfounded to think anything else. I almost laughed out loud because her office is not more than 75ft. from the pharmacy school. I mean wtf, if they only could have heard what she was saying.

Yes, she's probably ignorant and less than tactful (to say the least), but I at least give her credit for being honest about her feelings (however misplaced they may be).

 

[Triangulation]

These are all reasons why it's imperative that we get the word out on pharmacy and get involved in recruitment and retention programs. I think that if many people could understand the need for pharmacists,particularly spanish speaking pharmacists in CA, they'd gain a huge amt of interest.

 

[LoneCoyote]

Hmm... this was an interesting thread to read since I am going to speak with my pre-med advisor in about an hour to tie up loose ends here before I head back to California in a couple of days. I am planning to tell her I am questioning my decision to apply to med school and am planning to explore pharmacy. It will be interesting to see what she has to say. I will post later

 

[LoneCoyote]

So she was actually quite cool about the whole thing which was a pleasant surprise. She told me she wouldn't normally encourage people to explore pharmacy but she thinks that I have good reasons and the fact that i am a bit older than a traditional undergrad means I am more mature about exploring a new field. She actually encouraged me to apply to both medical and pharmacy school, and even to drop med school in the middle of the application cycle if I decide pharmacy is it. Unfortunately, she knows little about the pharmacy application process so she wasn't much help there. But at least she was supportive which, given some of the other posts on this thread, sounds uncommon. Anyway, just wanted to share a postive pre-med advisor story

 

[phdmed07]

Ive been working on a PhD in Pharmacology and Toxicology for several years....And I have several friends who just graduated with their PharmD. I know you guys work hard and take some tough classes too. But I have to say, in the land of Academics, Professors think very lowly of the PharmD. They consider it an undergraduate degree. I have heard numerous times profs say the PharmD is nothing but an extended undergrad degree to work at CVS. Thus, many PhDs tend to think the same.

ECU Med '07

 

[Triangulation]

phdmed07,

That's kinda funny bc I've worked in research labs at UCSF and Berkeley and the only people that the grad students and post-docs routinely put-down are the MD researchers. In fact, the only fellow ever removed from my lab by my Principal Investigator was an MD fellow. My circle of friends is virtually all grad students/MSTP students from UCSF. They encouraged me to go to pharm school. This is after I scored a 35 on the MCAT and taught Kaplan MCAT prep courses. Please save it.

 

[Monkeyguts]

PhDmed,

Dude, I PM'd you. The thing is that the advisor I was speaking of wasn't a prof...she was the chief pre-medical advisor for the university, and she has her MA in something. Anyway, I think she has a personal defect because there have been many more crazy-ass statements that I have heard come out of her mouth both to me and to other friends of mine. IMHO, she is just sort of a nut that needs to go away.

azpremed, it may not be uncommon to find many pre-med advisors who would encourage students to obtain a Pharm.D. I'm not sure as I have only had one pre-med advisor personally, so I am by no means an authority on the subject.

 

[Brill]

At the schools y'all went were there "pre-med advisors" who only advised pre-med students? At my school we had a "pre-health advisor" who advised all students who were pursuing any of the health professions. Just curious how things work elsewhere.

 

[jdpharmd?]

Originally posted by phdmed07
Ive been working on a PhD in Pharmacology and Toxicology for several years....And I have several friends who just graduated with their PharmD. I know you guys work hard and take some tough classes too. But I have to say, in the land of Academics, Professors think very lowly of the PharmD. They consider it an undergraduate degree. I have heard numerous times profs say the PharmD is nothing but an extended undergrad degree to work at CVS. Thus, many PhDs tend to think the same.

ECU Med '07

Ahh, yes, "in the land of academics". That's funny, because that's pretty much what we're all trying to escape and get a job. My pharmacy biochem professor was a PharmD/PhD, and even he called the PharmD a "Dr. Lite". He was not opposed to it (as he taught 130+ PharmD students/year), but he too was in the land of academics. It's a weird and close-knit group, but considering that the average salary for a chemistry PhD was something like $68,000/year last year, I think that I'll stick to my PharmD for now. I have nothing against PhD's. My father is a PhD in something like molecular biology and human genetics and did his post-doc at Yale. That is what truly convinced him to get his as$ out of academia and get a "normal job". You're a PhD/MD student? props to you! Talk about a lot of school!!


Jd

 

[phdmed07]

Dont get me wrong anyone Im not trying to knock the PharmD Im just relating what Ive heard for numerous years. PhDs do think very lightly of the the pharmD. I myself dont want to stay in academics either....thought I would but realize that academics is not for me.

 

[jdpharmd?]

Originally posted by phdmed07
Dont get me wrong anyone Im not trying to knock the PharmD Im just relating what Ive heard for numerous years. PhDs do think very lightly of the the pharmD. I myself dont want to stay in academics either....thought I would but realize that academics is not for me.

PhD's also have to realize that a PharmD is a clinical degree, meant to teach not only the facts, but how to apply them in a clinical situation. They are really two different animals. Good luck!

Jd

 

[Modnar]

Originally posted by phdmed07
Dont get me wrong anyone Im not trying to knock the PharmD Im just relating what Ive heard for numerous years. PhDs do think very lightly of the the pharmD.

And their opinion should matter to me... why? I'm getting a PharmD to please myself, not because I want to be Ms. Popular. No matter what you do in life, there will people who look down their noses at you. If you want to be happy, you need to remember that their snobbery is their problem, not yours.

 

[LVPharm]

The PharmD is a professional doctorate, not unlike a JD, MD, DC, DO, OD, PsyD. Comparing a professional degree to a graduate degree (PhD) is like comparing apples and turnips. Just because PhD students have to complete a dissertation makes them that much better than students pursuing other doctorates? There really is no comparison to be made here.

 

[BMBiology]

Originally posted by phdmed07
PhDs do think very lightly of the the pharmD.

A significant number of PhDs also think very lightly of the MD degree. People always feel the need to feel superior.

 

[LSUMED2006]

I was really surprised when I was interviewing in New orleans (or was it houston...I don't remember). Either way at each place there was a pharmacy school really close. My interviewer said "I see you are working towards your PharmD degree. What is that; I've never heard of it?" I was floored.

I have said it many times before; I don't think there is a better degree to achieve if one plans on attending medical school, as monkey seems to. I am so thankful each and every day for attending pharmacy school; it is sad that so many people are ignorant of what the degree entails.

Jason

Oh, monkeyguts, I replied to your pm.

 

[Dr. Pedo]

Not sure why I'm on this thread---guess cuz I just took Pharmacology in dental school and thought HOLY s%$t is this messy. Sure some consider their PhD in environmental science or underwater basket-weaving or whatever else field as the ultimate degree----but lets get serious here-----they haven't spent a minute trying to understand why an alpha 2 agonist in the pancrease prevents insulin release when we all know that the prevention of the sympatheic neurotransmitters (NE,EPI) should INDUCE insulin release.

So to all the Pharmacologist and Pharmacists thank you for taking on a complex SCIENCE that enables me to take cold medicine that will stop my running nose without givin' one frickin thought as to why!

Peace out----Doctor's

 

[jdpharmd?]

Originally posted by Dr.2b
Not sure why I'm on this thread---guess cuz I just took Pharmacology in dental school and thought HOLY s%$t is this messy. Sure some consider their PhD in environmental science or underwater basket-weaving or whatever else field as the ultimate degree----but lets get serious here-----they haven't spent a minute trying to understand why an alpha 2 agonist in the pancrease prevents insulin release when we all know that the prevention of the sympatheic neurotransmitters (NE,EPI) should INDUCE insulin release.

So to all the Pharmacologist and Pharmacists thank you for taking on a complex SCIENCE that enables me to take cold medicine that will stop my running nose without givin' one frickin thought as to why!

Peace out----Doctor's

Thanks for giving me valium, vicodin, and tylenol #3, and my leaving those handprints on my jaw when you tore out my teeth. Just kidding. I need to stop by the dental forum and see what's going on over there. I thought about going to dental school, but the idea of bloody tooth fragments just turns me off. Good luck!

Jd

Oh, and yes, I agree about the PhD in underwater basket weaving. I was thinking, in particular, of my old PhD in "interpersonal communcation" professor. They should NOT give out a doctorate in that!

 

[LSUMED2006]

Originally posted by Dr.2b
they haven't spent a minute trying to understand why an alpha 2 agonist in the pancrease prevents insulin release when we all know that the prevention of the sympatheic neurotransmitters (NE,EPI) should INDUCE insulin release.

I may be miss reading what you have written, but I think that you are (greatly) oversimplying things. Alpha 2 agonists very often produce an effect that may be "opposite" what one would expect with the sympathetic compounds (eg clonidine decreases sympathetic outflow and therefore BP, wheras giving NE/EPI would increase systolic and possibly diastolic (depending on the which one it was) BP) due to being linked to different G protein subtypes than the say beta receptors and alpha 1 subtypes. A beta 2 agonist acutally INCREASES insulin release. Simply preventing sympathetic neurotransmittors doesn't guarnatee a release, as beta 2 antagonists decrease plasma levels, whereas alpha 2 antagonists result in an increase of plasma insulin concentration. Glucose is the principal stimulus of insulin release, and this is always important. Even what I have presented is an oversimplification; I have a test and don't have time at the momement to go into it. In short, elevated intracellular Ca2+ is required for insulin secretion. Keep in mind there are numerous subtypes of alpha 2 receptors (specifially alpha 2a in the panc.), and stimulation of some of these subtypes would result in widely varying intracellular effects, such as decreasing adenyl cyclase; such effects would result in decreased insulin secretion. Beta 2 receptors are linked to a Gs protein that increases andenyl cyclase, which would increase insulin secretion.

I went on much longer than I intended, and only scratched the surface. Just keep in mind that the regulation of insulin is extremely complicated and involves things I haven't even mentioned, such as glucagon and somatostatin. Saying that insulin secretion should be increased in the abscense of adrenergic agonists like NE/Epi is missing out on the big picture. For example, both NE/Epi have different receptor profiles that stimulate alpha and beta receptors differently, not to mention result in direct or indirect stimulation of other briefly mentioned regulators.

 

[Triangulation]

Doc2B,

Wise choice. This acquaintance is in her 2nd year of Internal Med Residency in SF. I spoke with her about a year ago and the first thing she told me was that if she could do it all again she'd go to dental school, and this girl was HARD CORE. I can't really get into that at all, but either way you guys send a lot of business our way.

I actually like dealing w/dental scripts bc so many of them aren't third party. Thank god for cheap tyco's and vicodin.