Pre-med checklist?

[jackcandle]

Hi, I'm a freshman enrolled at a community college looking to get into medical school.

I'm taking my pre-med classes at my community college because I want to stay here for two years in order to save money since I support myself without any other family, but I've read somewhere that if I want to get into med school, I'll have to transfer to a higher tier school. Is this true or can I stay at community college for the two years?

I'm currently volunteering at a hospital. If I volunteer at this same hospital for the next four years, would that be enough clinical experience to be considered a healthy applicant? Would it help to go overseas to somewhere like Africa with a church that sponsers me (since I obviously can't afford it), even though it would primarily be an evangelically-focused trip?

And aside from taking the MCAT before applying, is there anything else I need to do to prepare for medical school?

Thanks in advance.

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[theseeker4]

Hi, I'm a freshman enrolled at a community college looking to get into medical school.

I'm taking my pre-med classes at my community college because I want to stay here for two years in order to save money since I support myself without any other family, but I've read somewhere that if I want to get into med school, I'll have to transfer to a higher tier school. Is this true or can I stay at community college for the two years?

You can definitely take the pre-reqs at the community college, but some medical schools prefer to see them at 4-year universities. Most schools will not have any problem, however, if you take some upper level science classes at the 4-year you transfer to, as long as those grades are good. Obviously, you want a very high GPA in all the CC classes so the schools have no reason to question whether you can handle the work.

I'm currently volunteering at a hospital. If I volunteer at this same hospital for the next four years, would that be enough clinical experience to be considered a healthy applicant? Would it help to go overseas to somewhere like Africa with a church that sponsers me (since I obviously can't afford it), even though it would primarily be an evangelically-focused trip?

Don't go overseas because you think it looks good for med school apps. If you really want to go volunteer, do so. If you are just concerned with med school, there are plenty of things you can do here, most of which would probably do a lot more to help people than going overseas would do. Keep hospital volunteering, fit in shadowing of a few doctors in different specialties, and get involved in any clubs or other volunteering you find interesting, and your EC's will be fine. Also, look into research opportunities as many medical schools, especially the top ones, like to see that.

And aside from taking the MCAT before applying, is there anything else I need to do to prepare for medical school?

Thanks in advance.

Keep your grades as high as possible, don't get into trouble with your school or the law, do things you enjoy, and don't go into the MCAT thinking you don't have to prepare for it.

 

[jackcandle]

You can definitely take the pre-reqs at the community college, but some medical schools prefer to see them at 4-year universities. Most schools will not have any problem, however, if you take some upper level science classes at the 4-year you transfer to, as long as those grades are good. Obviously, you want a very high GPA in all the CC classes so the schools have no reason to question whether you can handle the work.

I am currently majoring in physics, so I will definitely be taking higher sciences all throughout my education. Is this okay with the higher ranked medical schools, even with the two years at community college? Or should I look to transfer as soon as possible?

Don't go overseas because you think it looks good for med school apps. If you really want to go volunteer, do so. If you are just concerned with med school, there are plenty of things you can do here, most of which would probably do a lot more to help people than going overseas would do. Keep hospital volunteering, fit in shadowing of a few doctors in different specialties, and get involved in any clubs or other volunteering you find interesting, and your EC's will be fine. Also, look into research opportunities as many medical schools, especially the top ones, like to see that.

How much EC must I have participated in in order to have a competitive application? I guess just volunteering at one hospital for four years isn't enough? Also, I will be accumulating a lot of physics research experience on the side (just purely out of interest for physics). Will this count for anything, or should I just drop the physics research altogether and volunteer for something else medically related?

 

[theseeker4]

I am currently majoring in physics, so I will definitely be taking higher sciences all throughout my education. Is this okay with the higher ranked medical schools, even with the two years at community college? Or should I look to transfer as soon as possible?

It would depend on what schools you are looking at. I believe there are one or two that don't recognize any CC classes whatsoever. Others discourage it, and may question you about why you took pre reqs at a CC, but will still accept the credits. Contact the schools you are interested in and ask them about CC's. I would bet trying to save money would be accepted as a perfectly justified reason to stay at the CC for 2 years by most adcoms, but the decision is yours. If I were you, I would stay at the CC, but I never had my sights set on a top-10 school.

How much EC must I have participated in in order to have a competitive application? I guess just volunteering at one hospital for four years isn't enough? Also, I will be accumulating a lot of physics research experience on the side (just purely out of interest for physics). Will this count for anything, or should I just drop the physics research altogether and volunteer for something else medically related?

Substantial time spent outside of school on something is necessary. If you work a substantial number of hours, have 4 years volunteering and a full class schedule each semester, I doubt your EC's will keep you out of most schools. If you aren't working, look into tutoring, either for money or as a volunteer, or something else you would enjoy doing. You just want to have some activities you enjoy outside of school work, both so med schools know you are a real person and for your own enjoyment and sanity.

Having research in any science will help you immensely, especially if you are interested in top schools or MD/PhD programs (essentially required for these). Stick with your physics research as it will help more than additional clinical volunteering, IMO. Being involved with the research enough to be included as an author when the project is published would look especially great on your application. There is no need for the research to be medically related.

Even as little as 4 hours a month hospital volunteering would be enough to show continuing clinical exposure if you keep it up from now through your application cycle. If you do that, stick with the research and maybe shadow a few doctors, you will be ahead of most pre-meds come application season.

For my n=1 experience, I started clinical volunteering the same month I submitted my primary application, had no real volunteering, no research at all, and was accepted. That approach is not recommended (I fully expected to be rejected and apply next year) but the idea often implied on SDN that "you need 1000 hours volunteering, both medical and non-medical, you have to travel to Africa and save babies, you have to have at least 4 years research including 1st author publications, and you have to teach at least 25 inner-city kids how to read to even have a chance" is complete bunk.

Your plan sounds good, check with your dream schools about their CC policy, and other than that, you are good to go, keep the grades up and kill the MCAT.

 

[jackcandle]

It would depend on what schools you are looking at. I believe there are one or two that don't recognize any CC classes whatsoever. Others discourage it, and may question you about why you took pre reqs at a CC, but will still accept the credits. Contact the schools you are interested in and ask them about CC's. I would bet trying to save money would be accepted as a perfectly justified reason to stay at the CC for 2 years by most adcoms, but the decision is yours. If I were you, I would stay at the CC, but I never had my sights set on a top-10 school.

Does the medical school you attend matter when being selected for post-medical school programs, such as if I want to become an ENT surgeon or something?

Even as little as 4 hours a month hospital volunteering would be enough to show continuing clinical exposure if you keep it up from now through your application cycle. If you do that, stick with the research and maybe shadow a few doctors, you will be ahead of most pre-meds come application season.

Would 10 hours a week volunteering at a hospital be overkill, then?

I'm not entirely sure on how the medicine field process works...after I finish college and get into medical school, is this essentially the same as graduate school? Like after four years in medical school, you're a doctor by title, and then you apply to enter specific programs such as different types of surgery and whatnot?

 

[theseeker4]

Does the medical school you attend matter when being selected for post-medical school programs, such as if I want to become an ENT surgeon or something?

There are differences in opinion on this point, but the general consensus is your medical school can be a factor in getting into top residency programs, but your class standing, step scores, LOR's etc. are more important. No specialty is completely out of your reach by going to a lower-ranked school, but a highly-ranked school might give you a bit of an edge.

Would 10 hours a week volunteering at a hospital be overkill, then?

I'm not entirely sure on how the medicine field process works...after I finish college and get into medical school, is this essentially the same as graduate school? Like after four years in medical school, you're a doctor by title, and then you apply to enter specific programs such as different types of surgery and whatnot?

If your volunteering is so engaging and interesting that you don't mind putting in 10 hours a week for three years, by all mean go for it. You certainly do NOT have to have that many hours, so feel free to cut back, especially if you really aren't enjoying the experience that much.

It is somewhat like that. The first 2 years of medical school are like graduate classes; lectures, labs, small groups, etc. The next 2 years are clinical rotation. You are basically learning what it is like to be a doctor, rotating through areas such as surgery, OB/GYN, internal medicine, etc. When you graduate you are an MD (or DO) but unable to practice medicine without further training. Residency for a minimum of 3 years is required to be licensed to practice, even as a general practitioner. Some specialties have dedicated residencies, some specialties require fellowships after a more generalized specialty (such as pediatric surgery, a fellowship after general surgery, and cardiology, a fellowship after internal medicine residency) and some have both options available (Plastic surgery I believe can be either dedicated residency right after medical school, or a fellowship after general surgery residency.)

If I were you, I wouldn't get too set on any one specialty right now. Most medical students change their minds after they are exposed to different specialties on 3rd year rotations, and a lot of students who want to do something very competitive rule themselves out by not performing in the top 1/3 of their class/get a too-low step I score. Focus on what you need to do to get into medical school first, then worry about exactly what specialty you want.

 

[jackcandle]

Thanks theseeker4. A couple of last questions for now: how heavily of an "edge" would a school, say, ranked in the top 20 for medicine compare to a school in the top 125 or something, if two students were to both apply for the same residency program with the student at the lower ranked school doing slightly better than the other?

And how realistic/difficult is it to get into a top medical school such as Harvard, UCSF, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, etc.? Is it as difficult as a non-genius attempting to apply to Harvard for a mathematics PhD (as far as I know, they take in less than a dozen PhD candidates worldwide each year, all of them who have made globally recognizable achievements and won various awards such as the Putnam, etc., basically literal geniuses)?

 

[Everett True]

Thanks theseeker4. A couple of last questions for now: how heavily of an "edge" would a school, say, ranked in the top 20 for medicine compare to a school in the top 125 or something, if two students were to both apply for the same residency program with the student at the lower ranked school doing slightly better than the other?

From what I've read, a 4.0 at a state university is better than a, say, 3.6 at an Ivy. The school you go to is generally less important than how you do at that school.

 

[MartletMD]

Thanks theseeker4. A couple of last questions for now: how heavily of an "edge" would a school, say, ranked in the top 20 for medicine compare to a school in the top 125 or something, if two students were to both apply for the same residency program with the student at the lower ranked school doing slightly better than the other?

And how realistic/difficult is it to get into a top medical school such as Harvard, UCSF, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, etc.? Is it as difficult as a non-genius attempting to apply to Harvard for a mathematics PhD (as far as I know, they take in less than a dozen PhD candidates worldwide each year, all of them who have made globally recognizable achievements and won various awards such as the Putnam, etc., basically literal geniuses)?

There are stats, where the residency matching service asked program directors (the people who are responsible for choosing residents) what their most important criteria was, what they took into account. The name of the med school came up, but a very small number considered it important. Google ERAS/NRMP or whatever, look for their data reports. Numbers can be soothing.

As for how difficult getting into Harvard, Hopkins, etc: I think that depends on what kind of position you're coming from. Do your best in school, wherever you end up; get involved with ECs that you are genuinely interested in; prepare for the MCAT; and make sure to have the basic recommendations in there (ie. volunteering/shadowing/clinical experience, research for the top schools, etc.)

Bottom line: It's not an easy thing to do for anyone, but a student with a 40 MCAT, 3.8, and a publication who went on a Rhodes scholarship will have a much better shot than someone with a 32 and a 3.6 who has been volunteering at a hospital for 4 hours a week and doing little else.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

I spent two years at a CC to save money too. It's alright as long as you complete the harder pre-reqs such as Physics or Orgo at the 4 year university.

 

[jackcandle]

I'm already taking physics and orgo at CC now because I need them as pre-requisites for the more advanced physics and chem classes due to my major. Will this be a problem?

 

[theseeker4]

I'm already taking physics and orgo at CC now because I need them as pre-requisites for the more advanced physics and chem classes due to my major. Will this be a problem?

Shouldn't be a problem, as long as you take at least several hard science classes (bio, chem, physics) at the university level. To be safe, a couple classes from each group would be ideal, or at least a couple higher-level bio classes in addition to the physics you already need. I would recommend: micro, genetics, anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, cell biology. Not necessarily all of these, but a couple at least, in addition to the pre-reqs and your physics major requirements.

Thanks theseeker4. A couple of last questions for now: how heavily of an "edge" would a school, say, ranked in the top 20 for medicine compare to a school in the top 125 or something, if two students were to both apply for the same residency program with the student at the lower ranked school doing slightly better than the other?

And how realistic/difficult is it to get into a top medical school such as Harvard, UCSF, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, etc.? Is it as difficult as a non-genius attempting to apply to Harvard for a mathematics PhD (as far as I know, they take in less than a dozen PhD candidates worldwide each year, all of them who have made globally recognizable achievements and won various awards such as the Putnam, etc., basically literal geniuses)?

Top medical schools take many more students than the PhD program you mention, so they are obviously not THAT selective. The problem is, even if you have great stats, it is hit or miss as far as whether you get accepted. The higher ranked the school, the less "certain" great stats and great EC's make your acceptance. There are no guarantees in med school admissions, and that is even more true for the highest ranked schools. All you can do is talk about probabilities, and the best way to increase your probability of being accepted anywhere is to have great stats, great, meaningful EC's, great LOR's, great essays, etc.

As far as the edge a residency program gives to a top-whatever school, it depends entirely on the program director. For the vast majority, though, having a good personality and getting along well with everyone during the residency interview by far would trump the school name. If you are competitive in stats, have good LOR's, did well in your med school rotations, especially the rotation in whatever specialty you are applying for, and come across as a good human being and someone they would enjoy working with, you would be likely to be ranked well by that program. Being from a top school might give you an edge, but the other aspects listed would have more influence for the majority of programs. For the example you list above, if the program director isn't completely absorbed with only taking top-25 school grads, both would probably be interviewed and the one with a better personality would probably get in.

 

[StoicJosher]

My brother started undergrad this year and he has hopes of going into medical school and I sent him NickNaylor's MDapps.

 

[jackcandle]

Well, considering NickNaylor's MDapplicants profile page, I probably won't get into any of the top 50 schools even if I match his grades unless I up my ECs, I guess.

So med schools do not provide stipends like PhD programs at all? I have to pay my way through MD? What about residency?

 

[torshi]

Hi, I'm a freshman enrolled at a community college looking to get into medical school.

I'm taking my pre-med classes at my community college because I want to stay here for two years in order to save money since I support myself without any other family, but I've read somewhere that if I want to get into med school, I'll have to transfer to a higher tier school. Is this true or can I stay at community college for the two years?

I'm currently volunteering at a hospital. If I volunteer at this same hospital for the next four years, would that be enough clinical experience to be considered a healthy applicant? Would it help to go overseas to somewhere like Africa with a church that sponsers me (since I obviously can't afford it), even though it would primarily be an evangelically-focused trip?

And aside from taking the MCAT before applying, is there anything else I need to do to prepare for medical school?

Thanks in advance.

take the courses you need at the CC, transfer to ANY college/university and do well while taking upper-level courses which you most likely have to since you will be taking courses towards your major.

 

[theseeker4]

Well, considering NickNaylor's MDapplicants profile page, I probably won't get into any of the top 50 schools even if I match his grades unless I up my ECs, I guess.

So med schools do not provide stipends like PhD programs at all? I have to pay my way through MD? What about residency?

If you do a normal MD program, you pay your own way, almost always with loans, which cover tuition and cost of living. Residencies are paid employment, but at around $40k a year, so essentially minimum wage considering the hours you will be working.