If you had to repeat MS1 after having successfully completed it, would it be...

  • Much easier

    Votes: 14 51.9%
  • Easier

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • Just as difficult

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • Harder

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • Total voters
    27

MegaSpectacular

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Probably 90% of medical students advise people not to pre-study.

I have a question out of curiousity:

If you had to repeat MS1 after having made it through successfully, would it be:

A. Much easier
B. Easier
C. Just as difficult
D. Harder
 

ShyRem

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You're asking apples and oranges. Pre-study for pre-meds is worthless. They have no idea what to study, how much to study, how much in depth to study, or how their school (and the boards) will test it.

Of COURSE once you pass something it's easier. But if you're stumbling blindly, it's just as difficult to take the real course afterwards as if you had never "pre-studied" at all.
 

DrBowtie

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What was said above and the fact that most of the people in my class who repeated just had poor time management and didn't log the hours of studying needed. They were smart enough to grasp the material.
 

MegaSpectacular

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You're asking apples and oranges. Pre-study for pre-meds is worthless. They have no idea what to study, how much to study, how much in depth to study, or how their school (and the boards) will test it.

Of COURSE once you pass something it's easier. But if you're stumbling blindly, it's just as difficult to take the real course afterwards as if you had never "pre-studied" at all.
Yeah. Most people have like 3 months off, I have 15 months.

I gave up a ton to be a doctor (non trad - high paying job), I just can't imagine not working towards my goal for that long. Not saying I have to study, but would like to be productive or learning something.

I'm sure I will take a month or two off, but I have 15...

Lke you said, if you knew exactly HOW to pre-study it could be effective, but most won't know how or what.

Yet the point remains: IF a person were to study exactly what an MS1 student studied and in the same way, they would have a much easier time repeating it. Is it possible? I guess I don't know
 

ensuii

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Yeah. Most people have like 3 months off, I have 15 months.

I gave up a ton to be a doctor (non trad - high paying job), I just can't imagine not working towards my goal for that long. Not saying I have to study, but would like to be productive or learning something.

I'm sure I will take a month or two off, but I have 15...

Lke you said, if you knew exactly HOW to pre-study it could be effective, but most won't know how or what.

Yet the point remains: IF a person were to study exactly what an MS1 student studied and in the same way, they would have a much easier time repeating it. Is it possible? I guess I don't know
Understandable...however, place read this: for the love of god do not pre-study. I was in the same boat as you, I worked for a year as a grade school teacher when I had an acceptance in hand. What everyone has said so far is completely true but let me reinforce the point: regardless of how intelligent, hard-working, disciplined you are, you need another person (ie., an instructor) to highlight for you what level of foundational knowledge base is desired. Without this guidance, you will either focus too heavily on subject matter that is too detailed or be too general in your study. In either case it's a waste of time and inefficient. Furthermore, you cannot begin to imagine the sheer volume of material covered in a medical school lecture/course and how you adjust to it to adapt. What you do in a year I guarantee you that you'll be able to cover that volume in under a month with time to spare.

If you still don't believe me repost this poll as "Did/Would have pre-studying made M1 easier?"
 

sexyman

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It would be impossible to motivate yourself to study during your 15 months or however long to study "like med school". Anything you do will pale in comparison to what youll accomplish when thrown into the fire. about 12 months of "pre-studying" will most likely be equivalent to about 3 weeks in med school.

backpack through europe, go do something...you have plenty of studying ahead of you I promise.
 

MegaSpectacular

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It would be impossible to motivate yourself to study during your 15 months or however long to study "like med school". Anything you do will pale in comparison to what youll accomplish when thrown into the fire. about 12 months of "pre-studying" will most likely be equivalent to about 3 weeks in med school.

backpack through europe, go do something...you have plenty of studying ahead of you I promise.
How can I improve myself for my career as a physician other than pre-studying? I have 15 months and I will definitely take SOME time off but I don't need over 1 year away from activity.

What are good activities?
 

Semicolon

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How can I improve myself for my career as a physician other than pre-studying? I have 15 months and I will definitely take SOME time off but I don't need over 1 year away from activity.

What are good activities?
Why do you feel the need to "improve" yourself prior to the start of medical school? The school already feels you're ready; that's why they accepted you. Why don't you think you are?
 

cyclohexanol

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I understand where you are coming from, I was a non-trad from a high paying career as well.

Even if you have 15 months to "pre-study", and you studied the exact same material an MS1 would, why would you want to? Do you really want to basically repeat the 1st year of medical school? What good could that possibly do for you? Yes it would be easier the 2nd time around, but who cares? 1st year grades are essentially worthless in the grand scheme of things anyway.

Seriously, "pres-studying" is not a worthwhile endeavor. Spend time doing something else instead.
 

MegaSpectacular

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Why do you feel the need to "improve" yourself prior to the start of medical school? The school already feels you're ready; that's why they accepted you. Why don't you think you are?
Just trying to be the best I can (outside of being higher ranked or getting better residency), my personality just like to be good at doing things (obsessively).

I have agreed with you all since you have more experience than I, I am not so arrogant to disregard advice of the majority that have been down the road before I...

Seriously, "pres-studying" is not a worthwhile endeavor. Spend time doing something else instead.
I guess I will have to find a worthwhile project to take a lot of time and attention. After premed all sciences / MCAT / applying / chaos, I feel I need something to suck up that vacuum of effort/focus.
 

sexyman

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I took a year off between UG and med school (came out to about 15 months).

I'll tell ya, 15 months goes really quick. Sounds like a lot of time now, but when youre about to start school you'll be trying to figure out where all that time went.

If you really must do something think about doing something that is related to medicine but doesnt really involve studying. I dont know...maybe get EMT certified and try that gig out for a bit, do some research somewhere...i know seems vague but my real advice would be to enjoy yourself and do things you wont be able to once you start school.
 

cyclohexanol

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Just trying to be the best I can (outside of being higher ranked or getting better residency), my personality just like to be good at doing things (obsessively).

I have agreed with you all since you have more experience than I, I am not so arrogant to disregard advice of the majority that have been down the road before I...



I guess I will have to find a worthwhile project to take a lot of time and attention. After premed all sciences / MCAT / applying / chaos, I feel I need something to suck up that vacuum of effort/focus.
If I had 15 months off before med school, I would have spent it working on my road car. My other choice would have been to travel, but that costs more money ;)

Point is, I'd suggest just doing something you enjoy that doesn't involve studying.

It will go by quickly, so enjoy this time off :)
 

MegaSpectacular

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I took a year off between UG and med school (came out to about 15 months).

I'll tell ya, 15 months goes really quick. Sounds like a lot of time now, but when youre about to start school you'll be trying to figure out where all that time went.

If you really must do something think about doing something that is related to medicine but doesnt really involve studying. I dont know...maybe get EMT certified and try that gig out for a bit, do some research somewhere...i know seems vague but my real advice would be to enjoy yourself and do things you wont be able to once you start school.
EMT sounds good or maybe scribe. choices... thx:)
 

TexasTriathlete

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Try and defer for a year.

All kidding aside, if I could do it all over again, I would have gotten UWorld at the beginning of neuro (third term first year) and worked it into my normal studying. Maybe making tests that are part review, and part what is relevant for class at the time. And maybe even dabbled in it over the summer from time to time.

I know people will disagree with that, but I think it would have been a good idea. The questions are really good, and they make you think about things in a way that lecture handouts just can't. At least for me.
 

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It would be easier.. But it would suck. I would be so damn bored, I bet my grades would drop.
 
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So what if I just want to brush up on anatomy? At MSU COM we take just anatomy during July and August. Since I had it about four years ago during my freshman year, I thought it would not hurt to look at it a little and hope it all comes back to me. My friend was quizzing me and I could not remember very much. I am not going to try to learn everything, just the basics so I don't feel like an idiot on the first day.
 

MegaSpectacular

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What are the highest yield MS1 topics anyhow?

I've got this...

1. Physio
2. Biochem
3. Anatomy

in that order, what do you guys say?
 

ShyRem

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You're not going to listen to us, are you. *sigh*

As for what are highest yield, it's the one you are worst at.
 

bleeker10

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What are the highest yield MS1 topics anyhow?

I've got this...

1. Physio
2. Biochem
3. Anatomy

in that order, what do you guys say?
Anatomy really isn't that high yield after anatomy is over for us. Physio, Micro, Pharm, and Biochem have been the most high yield so far. It all depends on how your school gives you the information. We are in Basic Neuro right now so we have 80% anatomy with some physio and biochem thrown in. During Musculoskeletal, anatomy was more high yield with clinical orthopaedics. But once we start clinical neuro in a couple weeks, it is more path, pharm, micro and clinical neurology/ophthalmology. The most high yield thing I will study this summer is pharm and maybe micro. I suck at pharm and there is a lot of stuff to remember from micro. If you wanna study anything at all, study some medical terminology or the planes, movements, and directions for anatomy. That will help you out right away in anatomy
 

MegaSpectacular

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You're not going to listen to us, are you. *sigh*

As for what are highest yield, it's the one you are worst at.
I'm going to listen, kind of...:oops:

I am kind of a textbook nerd. I have Grey's for students, Boron's physiology, Lippincott's Biochem review, and costanza physiology already and thought about buying Guyton's.

I like building the library. Will I do a bit of reading... uhhh, I can't help myself (sorry). I know it will not yield me anything of significance, BUT a year? this is a long time!

What if you asked Da Vinci to stop learning? I'm no Da Vinci but I'd like to think I have a some small percentage of his appetite. I really don't care if it is absolutely worthless, just always need to be busy:)
 

MegaSpectacular

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Anatomy really isn't that high yield after anatomy is over for us. Physio, Micro, Pharm, and Biochem have been the most high yield so far. It all depends on how your school gives you the information. We are in Basic Neuro right now so we have 80% anatomy with some physio and biochem thrown in. During Musculoskeletal, anatomy was more high yield with clinical orthopaedics. But once we start clinical neuro in a couple weeks, it is more path, pharm, micro and clinical neurology/ophthalmology. The most high yield thing I will study this summer is pharm and maybe micro. I suck at pharm and there is a lot of stuff to remember from micro. If you wanna study anything at all, study some medical terminology or the planes, movements, and directions for anatomy. That will help you out right away in anatomy
I've heard people recommend medical terminology...


http://www.amazon.com/Medical-Terminology-Language-Bonnie-Fremgen/dp/0131365541/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3LWVROG0GV41X&colid=3K36GEPRQ5S8S

this book was decently ranked.

By the way, is the knowledge base you build in MS1 and MS2 something you need to know for your life as a Physician or is it gone by residency? I'm assume Physio is a "for life" topic, Neruo sounds fun too? Is this high yield material? I'd rather look at concepts than just sheer memorizing stuff...

What are the quality texts for pharm/micro? I've heard Robbins is the best for pahtology, no?
 

ShyRem

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I didn't say anything about not learning. But learn something you have a chance of really learning, something you won't have the chance to be taught later. Learn Swahili (my husband did this past year at work). Learn Spanish. Chinese. Learn how to cook. How to fix a leaky toilet. How to repair your car when the alternator craps out. How to fix a leaky roof. Learn the stock market and financial matters for when you're out on your own. Learn how to grow fresh herbs and veggies inside the house/apartment.

And learn what it takes to nourish your soul. You'll need to know how to do that the next few years of med school and residency.

But for heavens sakes, you'll get enough medicine shoved down your throat later. Learn something else now.
 

MegaSpectacular

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I didn't say anything about not learning. But learn something you have a chance of really learning, something you won't have the chance to be taught later. Learn Swahili (my husband did this past year at work). Learn Spanish. Chinese. Learn how to cook. How to fix a leaky toilet. How to repair your car when the alternator craps out. How to fix a leaky roof. Learn the stock market and financial matters for when you're out on your own. Learn how to grow fresh herbs and veggies inside the house/apartment.

And learn what it takes to nourish your soul. You'll need to know how to do that the next few years of med school and residency.

But for heavens sakes, you'll get enough medicine shoved down your throat later. Learn something else now.
hmmm. I'm horrible at language, maybe EMT like the other guy said. I just have to be busy. Maybe I should search for something new to learn... hmmm. Guess I'll have to brainstorm that.

But I like physiology the most! You still think I should avoid one of my favorite topics!?
 

ShyRem

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I've said my peace. I've been a voice of reason here. But I can't make you try something new.

Your patients won't want to talk about physiology while they're nervous having a biopsy or other procedure done. they're going to want to talk about what sewing machine they use to do their quilting, the new cams they put in their car, woodworking, anything but what you're doing to their body. They want to feel human. And if all you learn is physiology, biochem, and anatomy, you have nothing in common with your human patients.
 

Semicolon

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If you REALLY want to study something useful before med school, go to pharm school and get your Pharm.D. Then maaaaaybe you would have done some worthwhile pre-studying. ;)
 

ensuii

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I've said my peace. I've been a voice of reason here. But I can't make you try something new.

Your patients won't want to talk about physiology while they're nervous having a biopsy or other procedure done. they're going to want to talk about what sewing machine they use to do their quilting, the new cams they put in their car, woodworking, anything but what you're doing to their body. They want to feel human. And if all you learn is physiology, biochem, and anatomy, you have nothing in common with your human patients.
Pretty good stuff. OP you'd be better served volunteering/shadowing if you have to do something. Reading a textbook, even BRS type material will be the equivalent to watching porn...but do it if it makes you happy, people here urged you to use your time more efficiently...we don't do it because we're evil gunners trying to steer you askew but because we're trying to foster a community that looks after one another.
 

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I have the same masochistic penchant for constantly doing something academic.
Over the summer I'm studying everything I can about nutrition and exercise physiology since these are topics I feel may be useful, but aren't really covered in depth in med school. I also hope to use what I learn to get in better shape so classmates don't have to be grossed out feeling my squishy body in OMM lab.

Of course, if I had more money, I'd buy a race car and spend the summer at local dirt tracks . . . or if it weren't for wanting to maximize time with my wife and daughter, I'd take a couple of months and hike the whole Appalachian trail. I think my point and what everyone else is saying also, is if you want to learn stuff, then great, go do that, just don't learn med school stuff. Don't be the weird obsessive guy. Be well rounded. I LOVE medicine . . . Annals of EM is pleasure reading for me, but this summer is about pursuing other interests and just enjoying life for a bit.

Also, don't go the EMT route unless you just can't think of anything else to do with your time. It's a pretty useless course, and in the span of a year, you probably wouldn't gain much benefit from working as one. It certainly won't help for med school.

MC
 

badasshairday

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If you want to do something, I suggest learning medical spanish. That is the only thing I would have done if I can go back in time.
 

TexasTriathlete

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Why is everyone (pre-med) on here obsessed with neurosurgery? Does nobody understand that neurosurgery sucks?

I can't think of anyone in my class who has any interest whatsoever in neurosurgery. Hell, even our neurosurgeon professor (who is also boarded in EM) likes EM better.
 

MegaSpectacular

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Just start with Big Robbins then come back in a year and tell us how it went.
No way, starting with Boron's and Guyton's then building off that :thumbup: Probably to Grey's for students (maybe Moore's also), then onto Lehninger Principles of Biochemistry, after that I can touch pathology
 

MegaSpectacular

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Why is everyone (pre-med) on here obsessed with neurosurgery? Does nobody understand that neurosurgery sucks?

I can't think of anyone in my class who has any interest whatsoever in neurosurgery. Hell, even our neurosurgeon professor (who is also boarded in EM) likes EM better.
why does neurosurgery suck?

other interests:

EM
IM
Gen surgery
Cardiothoracic surgery
:thumbup:
 

DitchDoc73

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hmmm. I'm horrible at language, maybe EMT like the other guy said. I just have to be busy. Maybe I should search for something new to learn... hmmm. Guess I'll have to brainstorm that.

But I like physiology the most! You still think I should avoid one of my favorite topics!?
In my personal opinion as a Paramedic, if you are taking EMT just to take EMT you are wasting your time and money! Just relax and enjoy the last vacation you will have for the next 4 years! :)
 

TexasTriathlete

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Neurosurgery:

1. Long residency
2. Long hours with lots of call
3. Poor outcomes

3 is easily the biggest detractor for me. Most of your patients are going to get bad news. A good number will get really bad news. This is something you'll deal with in any area of medicine, but probably not like you will as a neurosurgeon.
 

ensuii

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No way, starting with Boron's and Guyton's then building off that :thumbup: Probably to Grey's for students (maybe Moore's also), then onto Lehninger Principles of Biochemistry, after that I can touch pathology
You'll come back in a year and realize how stupid/unprofessional you came off.
 
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Neurosurgery:

1. Long residency
2. Long hours with lots of call
3. Poor outcomes

3 is easily the biggest detractor for me. Most of your patients are going to get bad news. A good number will get really bad news. This is something you'll deal with in any area of medicine, but probably not like you will as a neurosurgeon.
Plus long surgeries.
 
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No way, starting with Boron's and Guyton's then building off that :thumbup: Probably to Grey's for students (maybe Moore's also), then onto Lehninger Principles of Biochemistry, after that I can touch pathology
You do understand that reading it once isn't going to do anything for you. You actually have to learning it by going over it numerous times, doing tests and such.
 

MegaSpectacular

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You do understand that reading it once isn't going to do anything for you. You actually have to learning it by going over it numerous times, doing tests and such.
Of course, that is why I have Michigan's website to help out, and the blue boxes for questions/review.
 

MegaSpectacular

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You'll come back in a year and realize how stupid/unprofessional you came off.
Or how I was wise beyond my years, only time will tell.

I'm partly kidding. I have no idea what I will do in the year preceding attendance. I am listening to all the advice but also gathering all the information so I can decide for myself. One thing you guys need to understand is that you are talking about not pre-studying because it won't be effective, while I'm talking about pre-studying to learn about the human body conceptually. I do not care if not 1 hour was productive towards me doing better in MS1, I'm trying to learn more about mastering my craft. That is why I am open to other things than MS1 or MS2 topics.

I will make a decision in a few months. :)
 

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No way, starting with Boron's and Guyton's then building off that :thumbup: Probably to Grey's for students (maybe Moore's also), then onto Lehninger Principles of Biochemistry, after that I can touch pathology
if you're looking for a conceptual picture of the human body, you're picking the wrong texts. Have you seen the B&B book?! it's over a 1000 pages of minutiae! and I wouldn't recommend even attempting to learn path if you haven't taken histo.

but why am I bothering? you're only hearing what you want to hear. I don't even know why you started the thread.
 

MegaSpectacular

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if you're looking for a conceptual picture of the human body, you're picking the wrong texts. Have you seen the B&B book?! it's over a 1000 pages of minutiae! and I wouldn't recommend even attempting to learn path if you haven't taken histo.

but why am I bothering? you're only hearing what you want to hear. I don't even know why you started the thread.
Yeah, I own Boron's. I've read through some of it already.

Everyone acts like I'm not listening if I don't 100% agree with them. I started the thread simply to hear all the reasons why not to do this, I've heard them all and still haven't heard anything persuasive.

I understand people think it is low yield, waste of time, solely focused on medicine, etc. I worked in business for 4 years strictly doing communications so I already have a strong background in other areas (non trad), so I've diversified quite a bit.

Like I said, I started to see if I could hear all the negative aspects and pitfalls, nothing sounds glaringly bad. Plus 90% of people think it would be easier if they re-took MS1 (another thing I wanted to poll). So although I don't agree 100% with everyone doesn't mean this hasn't been very informative. I just learned from you that studying pathology without histology background is bad, I wasn't aware.

I've learned a lot here.
 

Semicolon

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Yeah, I own Boron's. I've read through some of it already.

Everyone acts like I'm not listening if I don't 100% agree with them. I started the thread simply to hear all the reasons why not to do this, I've heard them all and still haven't heard anything persuasive.

I understand people think it is low yield, waste of time, solely focused on medicine, etc. I worked in business for 4 years strictly doing communications so I already have a strong background in other areas (non trad), so I've diversified quite a bit.

Like I said, I started to see if I could hear all the negative aspects and pitfalls, nothing sounds glaringly bad. Plus 90% of people think it would be easier if they re-took MS1 (another thing I wanted to poll). So although I don't agree 100% with everyone doesn't mean this hasn't been very informative. I just learned from you that studying pathology without histology background is bad, I wasn't aware.

I've learned a lot here.
I can already tell that your classmates are going to love you.
 

ensuii

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Plus 90% of people think it would be easier if they re-took MS1 (another thing I wanted to poll).
Repeating MS1 after having already gone through it is one thing. You/your poll question is assuming that you can read all the required reading of an MS1 year and gain roughly the same knowledge. This is simply not the case. You're better off making a poll (or even better, searching for past threads as it has most likely been discussed) reading: "In hindsight, would pre-studying have made any difference in M1?" I can assure you that most people reading the poll were approaching your question under the hypothetical of either (a)failing and being forced to repeat the year or (b)just having to do it again after having already gone it.

I think what people haven't told you yet is that med school, at least the first two years, doesn't live up to the hype. People have referred to it as "the Mt. Everest for nerds" but in reality, you're not going to working/studying 16hrs a day everyday. I was an Econ major that took 2 years off to teach in Las Vegas after college. The first two years of med school, after having a real job, is a never ending vacation. If you go to every class and study immediately afterwards like you should theoretically do, you'd still have enough time to pick up hobbies and such. Point being: very rarely is mastering content an issue in medical school. If you have enough discipline to seriously considering pre-studying then studying for classes will not be an issue. Medical knowledge in the basic sciences isn't rocket science...I know people that struggle on tests sometimes but it's not because they had spent hours and hours studying and still don't get it.

Anyway, I hope we've all been of at least some help. Keep in mind that SDN is a community of individuals in the medical field. This means that the people replying to your queries are your peers and most likely a pretty good sample of the people you will meet in school and in your journey towards becoming a doctor. Taking our advice with a grain of salt is good and all...but hopefully after your M1 year you'll realize the worth of listening to overwhelming consensus.
 

Styria

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If you're going to study anything, learn the body control systems. Start with the autonomic nervous system and go from there. You don't need all the details yet, but the big picture. Then you'll recognize what they're talking about first year and be able to integrate it.