Prelim-Surg Scramble?

[anestheticman]

What are the chances of getting a prelim-surg that is not malignant via the scramble?

I know there are many, many open spaces post-March 17th but how many of these are taken by IMGs??

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[Winged Scapula]

What are the chances of getting a prelim-surg that is not malignant via the scramble?

I know there are many, many open spaces post-March 17th but how many of these are taken by IMGs??

No one knows...that data is not published AFAIK.

 

[Pilot Doc]

What are the chances of getting a prelim-surg that is not malignant via the scramble?

Don't bet on the scramble. I had friends who had to scramble for prelim spots. It's difficult, hectic, chaotic, etc. After about three hours of faxing CVs, getting lots of busy signals, etc, they gave up and took surgery prelim spots at their med school.

Find a bird in hand and be happy with it.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Don't bet on the scramble. I had friends who had to scramble for prelim spots. It's difficult, hectic, chaotic, etc. After about three hours of faxing CVs, getting lots of busy signals, etc, they gave up and took surgery prelim spots at their med school.

Find a bird in hand and be happy with it.

Good advice and when you add in the fact that you are trying to stay in one location, you are severely limiting yourself which may be a major impact in your ability to scramble.

Tis much better to match and have to move at the end of your Prelim year, than go without and attempt to scramble for a few positions left over in your desired location and come up empty handed.

 

[anestheticman]

I have no issues with moving twice. Just with moving to a rural location for a year then back to a city.

The issue is ranking prelim medicine and/or transitionals that I was not crazy about based on their location/ workload level OR leaving myself open for a prelim-surg in a good location where I will undoubtedly work hard and learn a bit less... but I'm worried even the ones with 10-15 open spots could all fill up and then I would be screwed. Mainly thinking SF, LA, and NYC areas for the scramble.

 

[Pollicis]

I was under the impression that prelim surgery was reasonably easy to get into as it isn't the most desirable of positions. I actually know a quite a few IMGs who scrambled into prelim surgery across the country.

Is this not the case?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I have no issues with moving twice. Just with moving to a rural location for a year then back to a city.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

The issue is ranking prelim medicine and/or transitionals that I was not crazy about based on their location/ workload level OR leaving myself open for a prelim-surg in a good location where I will undoubtedly work hard and learn a bit less... but I'm worried even the ones with 10-15 open spots could all fill up and then I would be screwed. Mainly thinking SF, LA, and NYC areas for the scramble.

Any program in a geographically desirable area is going to be harder to get. Anecdotally, the scramble is no fun...I'd still rather go for the "bird in the hand" than take my chances in the scramble. The scramble is for last chances.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I was under the impression that prelim surgery was reasonably easy to get into as it isn't the most desirable of positions. I actually know a quite a few IMGs who scrambled into prelim surgery across the country.

Is this not the case?

As surgery has gotten more competitive and options in the UK less available to FMGs, even Prelim Surgery has gotten more difficult to get in to.

I don't know if the ACS' recent ruling about not training in more than 3 programs will lessen the appeal of Prelim programs, and there are certainly still more positions out there available in the scramble, but its (the scramble) not exactly a guarantee, especially if the OP is mostly interested in highly desirable geographically areas (like everyone else).

 

[anestheticman]

As surgery has gotten more competitive and options in the UK less available to FMGs, even Prelim Surgery has gotten more difficult to get in to.

I don't know if the ACS' recent ruling about not training in more than 3 programs will lessen the appeal of Prelim programs, and there are certainly still more positions out there available in the scramble, it not exactly a guarantee, especially if the OP is mostly interested in highly desirable geographically areas (like everyone else).

ah yes, the voice of reason

i guess i'll be ranking Fresno...

 

[ESU_MD]

rank your prelim programs after your categorical programs

if you aren't good enough to match into a categorical spot, you better have a backup. might as well pick your prelim year. I did.

there will not be any scramble categorical spots this year for surgery.

 

[Winged Scapula]

ah yes, the voice of reason

i guess i'll be ranking Fresno...

At least Fresno now has bookstores and Starbucks (two measures of civilization)...they didn't when I left there 10 years ago.

 

[anestheticman]

rank your prelim programs after your categorical programs

if you aren't good enough to match into a categorical spot, you better have a backup. might as well pick your prelim year. I did.

there will not be any scramble categorical spots this year for surgery.

I'm going into anesthesia (I think you are misreading my post) and I'm certainly not changing how I rank those... I'd rather have my top anesthesia advanced spot and the crappiest surgery prelim in the nation... than to pick all the categorical anesthesia spots and put those at the top.

 

[anestheticman]

At least Fresno now has bookstores and Starbucks (two measures of civilization)...they didn't when I left there 10 years ago.

Yes, its not THAT bad... I just wish the drive to SF or LA etc. was not quite so far.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yes, its not THAT bad... I just wish the drive to SF or LA etc. was not quite so far.

You're not originally from California are you?

We spend our lives on the freeways. Its not a big deal to drive 3.5 hrs to SF or LA for the day. Heck you could spend that driving from the valley to the West Side of Southern California on a bad day.

Ok...obviously you aren't going to do it every weekend, but frankly, you are not going to be interested in going out much as an intern.

 

[Biscuit799]

Given above posts, how does one go about applying for a prelim spot? By this, I mean, that during the app cycle, one is probably going to apply to, and God willing, interview for, a categorical position. How then does one go about applying and interviewing for a prelim spot at a program where that person is also applying for a categorical position? Would the hospital encourage that, or look down upon it as a sign of weakness?

 

[anestheticman]

Given above posts, how does one go about applying for a prelim spot? By this, I mean, that during the app cycle, one is probably going to apply to, and God willing, interview for, a categorical position. How then does one go about applying and interviewing for a prelim spot at a program where that person is also applying for a categorical position? Would the hospital encourage that, or look down upon it as a sign of weakness?

Hum I'm assuming you mean G-surg cat and prelim at the same place.

No clue there...

 

[ESU_MD]

(I think you are misreading my post)

sorry, you are right.

i am post call and drunk off my a_s_S reading sdn posts. isnt that pathetic?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Given above posts, how does one go about applying for a prelim spot? By this, I mean, that during the app cycle, one is probably going to apply to, and God willing, interview for, a categorical position. How then does one go about applying and interviewing for a prelim spot at a program where that person is also applying for a categorical position? Would the hospital encourage that, or look down upon it as a sign of weakness?

Most general surgery programs have categorical tracks and tracks for non-designated prelims. You can apply for both through ERAS. When interviewing, you can explain that you prefer Categorical but would consider a Preliminary position as well. Some programs do not interview their non-designated Prelims.

I don't know that programs would look upon it as a "sign of weakness". When ranking, you simply rank the programs and tracks as you best see fit.

 

[anestheticman]

Another good point: If I applied to a program, namely St. Luke's-Roosevelt prelim surg and never heard back at all which I interpreted as a rejection... does that mean maybe they don't interview non-designated prelims? Should I call and ask?

UCSF is the only program I applied to that explicitly stated no interviews required.

Most general surgery programs have categorical tracks and tracks for non-designated prelims. You can apply for both through ERAS. When interviewing, you can explain that you prefer Categorical but would consider a Preliminary position as well. Some programs do not interview their non-designated Prelims.

I don't know that programs would look upon it as a "sign of weakness". When ranking, you simply rank the programs and tracks as you best see fit.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Another good point: If I applied to a program, namely St. Luke's-Roosevelt prelim surg and never heard back at all which I interpreted as a rejection... does that mean maybe they don't interview non-designated prelims? Should I call and ask?

UCSF is the only program I applied to that explicitly stated no interviews required.

From my experience, we usually contacted the Prelims to tell them that (we don't interview), but it wouldn't hurt to call St. Luke's and just verify that. No sense in wasting a rank for someplace that won't rank you.

 

[anestheticman]

Oh, one more question...

Do most surgery prelims offer "elective" months? The standard IM or transitional I interviewed with offered 3-4 months plus or minus where you get the weekends off for the most part.

Its my understanding that for surgery, it is like a "ward month" for medicine the entire time and you get just 24 hours off a week all year... is that true?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Oh, one more question...

Do most surgery prelims offer "elective" months? The standard IM or transitional I interviewed with offered 3-4 months plus or minus where you get the weekends off for the most part.

Its my understanding that for surgery, it is like a "ward month" for medicine the entire time and you get just 24 hours off a week all year... is that true?

It would depend on the program. Mine put the prelims on the same rotations as the categoricals, so overall, no electives.

That said, if someone were trying to get into Ortho or some other surg specialty, we would try and give them a month on that service to audition. No promises, because it was up to the relevant department.

But otherwise, yes...just like the categoricals in most places. Some programs give interns elective or easier months and others do not. Mine did not. I know some that did.

 

[misyel]

At least Fresno now has bookstores and Starbucks (two measures of civilization)...they didn't when I left there 10 years ago.

I interviewed at Fresno... BIG change! They even have a Jamba Juice now, too!

It's a fair trade off, to get cocci in my lungs, as long as I reach my dream of becoming a surgeon?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I interviewed at Fresno... BIG change! They even have a Jamba Juice now, too!

It's a fair trade off, to get cocci in my lungs, as long as I reach my dream of becoming a surgeon?

I know...some of my friends tried to convince me to come back there and practice, telling me how much it had changed. I didn't believe it until I'd seen it.

And what's a little Valley Fever...hardly anyone ever dies from it!
(maybe that's why I'm lying here feverish and hacking up a lung)

 

[Leukocyte]

I was under the impression that prelim surgery was reasonably easy to get into as it isn't the most desirable of positions. I actually know a quite a few IMGs who scrambled into prelim surgery across the country.

Is this not the case?

This is what I thought too until I scrambled in 2007. Scrambling into ANYTHING is NOT easy as an IMG. Especialy undesignated preliminary spots.

If you can avoid the scramble...do not scramble.

 

[anestheticman]

I'm a US medical grad and I'm still nervous about it because I'm sure they would still prefer the IMG with super high board scores and actual interest in going into surgery over the average anesthesia applicant with surgery as a back-up plan... that's my issue. It doesn't seem like something to count on for anyone.