Premed considering HSPS advice needed

[rrxcrunner]

To start off, I will admit that I am very ignorant when it comes to any and all military topics. I am going to post my understanding/hope of how HSPS works, and I would appreciate anyone's advice in correcting my understanding or giving me further input.

Assuming I apply and am accepted to a medical school (whether DO or MD does not matter?) and have the automatic qualifications for acceptance to HSPS (29mcat and 3.50 GPA) or simply apply and get it regardless, which part of my "idea" of the program is not right or unlikely to occur?

1. Receive 20k bonus just for signing up and receive monthly payments of ~1.9k throughout 4 years of medical school with all tuition and supplies paid for.

2. I plan to apply to a military residency (as I have to I believe) and will almost certainly match especially if I continue the GP field that I suspect I will be taking. So I will spend 1 intern year +3 years of GP residency in a military residency?

I will receive much higher payment for these 4 military residency compared to civilian, correct? ~60ish k? Information about military residencies is much appreciated as well.

3. Upon finishing 4 years of residency, I will hopefully have payed back my reserves obligation and am left with 4 years of active duty to repay. These 4 years I will make what a military doctor makes, maybe 95kish?

More importantly, If I am married is my spouse permitted to travel and stay on base wherever I am stationed? Is it likely that I will be given any choice between bases? Is there any situation when I will definitely be separated from my spouse? Likelihood of staying in the country?

4. After 4 years of active duty, my debt will be repaid and I am no longer obligated to continue service? I have heard that military physicians lack certain training that is important, which is disappointing. Would it be difficult for a physician, specifically a GP perhaps, to find a civilian job as a GP after leaving the military?

If I love military medicine and decide to stay in the service, am I given any more preference to stay in the country if I had a family and children that I want to be educated in America? Are there any true benefits of staying within the military other than retirement. Does the pay ever become closer to a civilian's or any other advantages perhaps?

Also, does anyone have any advice about which branch of the military is best and why? Or have any suggestions on other places to get non biased information about military medicine?

I know this was ALOT of questions, some of which may have been answered in other threads but I have searched quite a bit for answers already. I truly appreciate any and all help that you guys have to offer.


Thanks again so much!

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[drcarter77]

most of your general concepts are pretty good just a few numbers are a little off. The stipend while on HPSP is currently about $2100. Pay back time can be a little variable if you were to do a longer residency as to the best of my understanding at this point as you will ultimately owe the number of years of whichever is greater between med school (4) or the residency you choose (generally 3-5). The military physician salary varies based off of bonuses that are offered for being a particular type of type. But 95k is definitely less than you would be making after you finish your residency and can start collecting some of these bonuses. Hope that starts to answer your questions. Feel free to message me privately and I'd be happy to talk more.

 

[DoctaJMa]

most of your general concepts are pretty good just a few numbers are a little off. The stipend while on HPSP is currently about $2100. Pay back time can be a little variable if you were to do a longer residency as to the best of my understanding at this point as you will ultimately owe the number of years of whichever is greater between med school (4) or the residency you choose (generally 3-5). The military physician salary varies based off of bonuses that are offered for being a particular type of type. But 95k is definitely less than you would be making after you finish your residency and can start collecting some of these bonuses. Hope that starts to answer your questions. Feel free to message me privately and I'd be happy to talk more.

the 20K bonus is given all within one week...payments of 9K, 9K, and then 2K...taxes taken from each of them u will end up with about 14K after taxes

 

[244913]

My advice would be to learn how to spell HPSP and then go from there

 

[rrxcrunner]

My advice would be to learn how to spell HPSP and then go from there

Haha, can't argue there.. that is quite embarrassing. The HPSP sticky seems to have gotten off topic and died.

My main question that I have now is:

If I pursue a relatively uncompetitive residency such as family medicine, or more likely psychiatry, am I likely to match in my 4th year no matter which branch I choose? I assume the army would give me the highest chance considering it has the most positions, but if there are more spots than applicants in the air force it may be a better option, correct?

It's crazy to think you are signing away 12 years of your life (okay more like 8) with so little information available. I have searched everywhere and found as much info as I can, in order to keep the unwanted "surprises" from coming up due to lack of preparation on my part. Any other useful sources are appreciated!

 

[244913]

Haha, can't argue there.. that is quite embarrassing. The HPSP sticky seems to have gotten off topic and died.

My main question that I have now is:

If I pursue a relatively uncompetitive residency such as family medicine, or more likely psychiatry, am I likely to match in my 4th year no matter which branch I choose? I assume the army would give me the highest chance considering it has the most positions, but if there are more spots than applicants in the air force it may be a better option, correct?

It's crazy to think you are signing away 12 years of your life (okay more like 8) with so little information available. I have searched everywhere and found as much info as I can, in order to keep the unwanted "surprises" from coming up due to lack of preparation on my part. Any other useful sources are appreciated!

Most of your questions have been answered before, many times.

Do not join the military for the money, or because you think it will increase your chance of getting a difficult specialty. You will regret your decision big-time on both counts. Join because you want to be a military officer first and foremost.

If you want to do Family Med, Psych, or Internal Med, then yes, your chances of straight through training are excellent. In the Army and Navy close to 100%, USAF maybe slightly lower b/c of the need for flight surgeons but still excellent.

Branch-wise the Army has the most training opportunities, most robust residencies, and the fewest GMOs of the 3 services.

I'll be frank, you do not sound like a good fit for HPSP. Your specialty choice will undoubtedly change during medical school and this could put you behind the eight ball when it comes time to match. The .Mil will take their pound of flesh, and then some- do not be fooled by the financial smoke and mirrors.

I've been a GMO flight surgeon for more than 3 years now and I can honestly say that taking the HPSP scholarship was one of the worst decisions of my life- not necessarily because the experience has been ALL bad, but because I committed roughly 8 years of my life before even starting medical school and figuring out what I wanted to do. The whole scholarship is flawed, and the .Mil will have no sympathy for you when you realize as a 4th year that you have a much different specialty goal, or your spouse is doing residency in another state, or you want to have kids (assuming you're female).

My advice would be to run as far from this "scholarship" as you can unless you absolutely cannot picture/live with yourself unless you don a uniform and see yourself as an "Officer first."

 

[AF M4]

It's crazy to think you are signing away 12 years of your life (okay more like 8) with so little information available. !

This. It is crazy.

61N hit it perfectly. Don't sign up unless you absolutely HAVE to wear a uniform, because there is otherwise no good reason to do HPSP.

Although...call me back in 10 years after med school tuitions have continued to inflate and the ObamaCare/Occupy Wall Street stuff has gone through, and becoming a doctor means going $1.2 million dollars in debt for a $28,000/year job with unlimited malpractice liability. Then HPSP would be a good deal.

 

[nickmx50]

automatic qualifications for acceptance to HSPS (29mcat and 3.50 GPA[/B]) or simply apply and get it regardless, which part of my "idea" of the program is not right or unlikely to occur?

Just spoke with an Army Medical recruiter this week, no more automatic qualifications with 29mcat and 3.50GPA as of recently. I have no idea whether this is the same for all branches of the military. However, he didn't make it seem as if there are many issues getting people with those stats or better qualified.

 

[rrxcrunner]

Most of your questions have been answered before, many times.

Do not join the military for the money, or because you think it will increase your chance of getting a difficult specialty. You will regret your decision big-time on both counts. Join because you want to be a military officer first and foremost.

If you want to do Family Med, Psych, or Internal Med, then yes, your chances of straight through training are excellent. In the Army and Navy close to 100%, USAF maybe slightly lower b/c of the need for flight surgeons but still excellent.

Branch-wise the Army has the most training opportunities, most robust residencies, and the fewest GMOs of the 3 services.

I'll be frank, you do not sound like a good fit for HPSP. Your specialty choice will undoubtedly change during medical school and this could put you behind the eight ball when it comes time to match. The .Mil will take their pound of flesh, and then some- do not be fooled by the financial smoke and mirrors.

I've been a GMO flight surgeon for more than 3 years now and I can honestly say that taking the HPSP scholarship was one of the worst decisions of my life- not necessarily because the experience has been ALL bad, but because I committed roughly 8 years of my life before even starting medical school and figuring out what I wanted to do. The whole scholarship is flawed, and the .Mil will have no sympathy for you when you realize as a 4th year that you have a much different specialty goal, or your spouse is doing residency in another state, or you want to have kids (assuming you're female).

My advice would be to run as far from this "scholarship" as you can unless you absolutely cannot picture/live with yourself unless you don a uniform and see yourself as an "Officer first."

I appreciate the advice, but I really don't see myself changing my mind at this point. Obviously to choose military to increase your chance at matching in anything is very foolish.

Financially, it is a bit of a gamble. If I do get through medical school and remain interested in psych or something less competitive, than I am on the upside financially. All things considered, I will come out slightly ahead financially than if I had taken out loans at an expensive private school and done a civilian residency.

Worst case scenario I can see is if I find a specialty that I absolutely can not live without, that I do not match in. In this case I do a flight surgeon tour (if air force) for a year and try again. Repeat this until I can get the residency I want or if I actually get denied 4 years in a row, I enter the civilian match debt free with a fair bit of experience and cash through my 4 years of service. (Although clearly a net loss in the long run)

I wish it were possible to get a better idea of what being a military physician entailed before signing 8 years away. But HPSP is what it is, and I don't see myself regretting it in either situation.

Interesting about the deletion of the automatic qualifications. Although, it could create for some very unrounded applicants being sponsored which really should not be.

 

[AF M4]

I appreciate the advice, but I really don't see myself changing my mind at this point. Obviously to choose military to increase your chance at matching in anything is very foolish.

Financially, it is a bit of a gamble. If I do get through medical school and remain interested in psych or something less competitive, than I am on the upside financially. All things considered, I will come out slightly ahead financially than if I had taken out loans at an expensive private school and done a civilian residency.

Worst case scenario I can see is if I find a specialty that I absolutely can not live without, that I do not match in. In this case I do a flight surgeon tour (if air force) for a year and try again. Repeat this until I can get the residency I want or if I actually get denied 4 years in a row, I enter the civilian match debt free with a fair bit of experience and cash through my 4 years of service. (Although clearly a net loss in the long run)

I wish it were possible to get a better idea of what being a military physician entailed before signing 8 years away. But HPSP is what it is, and I don't see myself regretting it in either situation.

Interesting about the deletion of the automatic qualifications. Although, it could create for some very unrounded applicants being sponsored which really should not be.

Heh.

You're doing HPSP for the money, and you're working under the idea of a false dichotomy between HPSP and getting med school paid now for or getting nailed for the full cost of the loans. This is bad, bad voodoo my friend.

Have you looked into the FAP program? Still military and they pay off your debt, but you come in as an attending after already going to the residency of your choice. Same benefits of HPSP, with much less uncertainty.

There are also tons of incentives for primary care specialties, particularly if you're OK with going to a small town for a few years and practicing. Little secret: many AF flight surgeon jobs are based in small towns and being a flight surgeon means doing primary care for pilots and their families. So that is also remarkably similar to signing on for HPSP but again gives you significantly more options than the military.

You don't quite have all the facts either. You're not signing away 8 years; you're signing away at least 9 and likely more like 12: 4 years of med school + 1 year of internship/3-4 years of residency + 4 years of active duty payback. All of that is time where you answer to Uncle Sam, and what if you find out (as many do) halfway through med school that being a doctor is not for you? Or that you start a family and your priorities change? Or a hundred other things change between now and the time you're in your 30s? It doesn't matter: you are bound to your contract until the bitter end.

Make no mistake. You WILL regret this decision. Be smart, and leave yourself options. The military will always be there to sign up docs and pay off their debts, wherever they are in their training.

 

[rrxcrunner]

AF, I am grateful for the advice. However, just because I would not join the military if there was no financial incentive does not mean that it is my only motivation. It is the glamor of the scholarship that first attracted me, but it alone would not be enough to counter the downsides of the military. I have a list of advantages that I have weighed and think that it is larger than the con list I have also made.

But perhaps you are right, I am undeniably terrified of owing hundreds of thousands of dollars that will be accumulating interest for ~10 years until I can even begin to make payment. As an undergrad I was fortunate enough to get a full scholarship and not have to take any loans despite no outside help, but I feel that just knowing I owe that much money will affect my studies. It is hard to put a price on peace of mind and possibly my performance in school.

I have briefly looked into some of the loan forgiveness programs for going to rural areas. Unfortunately, it is not a "sure thing" like the HPSP scholarship. I am unaware of the competitiveness of these scholarships among other aspects involved. I have found that many will not even pay back my full potential debt. (I will likely be stuck with private school, which will have to set me back at least 300k with living expenses and such)

I don't mean to be argumentative, I really do appreciate the advice.

 

[244913]

I appreciate the advice, but I really don't see myself changing my mind at this point. Obviously to choose military to increase your chance at matching in anything is very foolish.

Financially, it is a bit of a gamble. If I do get through medical school and remain interested in psych or something less competitive, than I am on the upside financially. All things considered, I will come out slightly ahead financially than if I had taken out loans at an expensive private school and done a civilian residency.

Worst case scenario I can see is if I find a specialty that I absolutely can not live without, that I do not match in. In this case I do a flight surgeon tour (if air force) for a year and try again. Repeat this until I can get the residency I want or if I actually get denied 4 years in a row, I enter the civilian match debt free with a fair bit of experience and cash through my 4 years of service. (Although clearly a net loss in the long run)

I wish it were possible to get a better idea of what being a military physician entailed before signing 8 years away. But HPSP is what it is, and I don't see myself regretting it in either situation.

Interesting about the deletion of the automatic qualifications. Although, it could create for some very unrounded applicants being sponsored which really should not be.

Don't be foolish. Listen to people who have been down this road before. It is so easy to say "oh if worse comes to worse I'll just do 4 yrs as a GMO and then get out." You haven't lived this reality.

Being a GMO is not fun and romantic. Sick call is mind numbing. You lose all the skills you learned in internship. Your main duties are those of a Staff officer, not a Physician, or at least some commands seem to feel this way. You're taking care of runny noses, ankle sprains, and dealing for the most part with the flotsam and jetsam of the unit who view a day on sick call as a great alternative to actually going to work or running a PT test. The good guys don't come to sick call, in case you're wondering.

If you join the AF or the Navy chances are good you'll be commanded by a nurse. What do you think about that? In all three services you will run across senior medical officers who haven't seen a patient in 10 years yet feel fit to tell you how to do your damn job. And don't be fooled into thinking that they'll have your back if you miss something either because you're a one year wonder- they're the first ones to come after you.

You are NOT thinking this through. You do not sound like military material. Do NOT join for the money if that is even in your top 10 priorities. You will be very sorry. Once you sign that contract it is OVER. And like I said it may seem romantic right now to trivialize the commitment or feign wistful resignation, but that will be cold comfort when you're cooling your heels in Minot North Dakota seeing your 15th patellofemoral syndrome patient of the day.

I was one of those guys who knew the risks of GMO etc. going in and actually entered with the intent of doing 4 yrs as a flight surgeon and then popping smoke. Trust me, this has not made the experience much more palatable. I would pay back the entire balance of the scholarship tomorrow if I could get out one year early. And I didn't join for the money, either. I went to an allopathic school where the 4 yrs of my tuition came to a grand total of $65,000. This was also "back in the day" when the stipend was about $1100/month and barely covered living expenses.

Think long and hard about this. Do not mortgage your future before you've even started your medical training. You will regret it.

 

[rrxcrunner]

Ouch, no supporters of HPSP around here. In all fairness, it's hard to judge whether I am the military type just by my questions. I haven't really given much about myself away.

I am in total agreement that doing 4 years as a GMO or flight surgeon is definitely not a good thing. I hope I remain interested in an uncompetitive field and do not have to worry about such things. But in the end, I am not expecting something for nothing here. The military would be supporting me with a lot of money in order for me to get through medical school without the financial stress. In return, 4 years of active duty (for which I am still compensated quite fairly).

It seems the number one thing that people complain about in regard to military medicine is the scenario you described with a nurse giving you commands just because he/she has been in the service longer. To me, that doesn't sound like the end of the world. Not ideal, but not worth giving up a great opportunity for. Not being able to match is the main concern I have, which is eliminated by uncompetitive specialties.

I am sorry that you regretted it, do you think you still would feel this way if you had matched straight out of medical school and entered active duty as a board certified physician? Are there disadvantages involved in military residencies that I should be concerned about other than location and availability?

 

[AF M4]

AF, I am grateful for the advice. However, just because I would not join the military if there was no financial incentive does not mean that it is my only motivation. It is the glamor of the scholarship that first attracted me, but it alone would not be enough to counter the downsides of the military. I have a list of advantages that I have weighed and think that it is larger than the con list I have also made.

But perhaps you are right, I am undeniably terrified of owing hundreds of thousands of dollars that will be accumulating interest for ~10 years until I can even begin to make payment. As an undergrad I was fortunate enough to get a full scholarship and not have to take any loans despite no outside help, but I feel that just knowing I owe that much money will affect my studies. It is hard to put a price on peace of mind and possibly my performance in school.

I have briefly looked into some of the loan forgiveness programs for going to rural areas. Unfortunately, it is not a "sure thing" like the HPSP scholarship. I am unaware of the competitiveness of these scholarships among other aspects involved. I have found that many will not even pay back my full potential debt. (I will likely be stuck with private school, which will have to set me back at least 300k with living expenses and such)

I don't mean to be argumentative, I really do appreciate the advice.

Ha! You sound like me 10 years ago. I too got a full ride to undergrad, and can vividly remember staring at the incomprehensible sums of money on the first med school tuition bill and wondering just how much plasma I would have to sell to make the first payment.

I was book-smart, but didn't know crap about anything else. I know exactly how scared and uncomfortable you are of those big numbers. You don't know what you don't know, so you're reaching for the first thing that looks secure. Oh yeah, I get it.

So try this: if it makes you feel better, don't discard HPSP yet. Just let it sit on the backburner. It'll be there for you, don't worry. Let's play a game in the meantime. First question: who does your taxes?

I'm guessing that you're probably a relatively typical pre-med, which means that you've never really held a job beyond work over the summer or a few hours a week during college. That's employment, but not really a Job. So your taxes could have been done by your uncle, or the guy down the street at Wal-Mart for $50 bucks or whatever. You've probably never really had much of anything to report, right? You've never really handled money, and now you're going to make a big big BIG decision that is mostly predicated on a huge amount of it, yeah?

Sounds kinda lousy when you think of it that way.

So I've got a project for you, and you'll really appreciate the results. Go into your phonebook, or Google or whatever, and find the phone numbers of some local CPA (certified public accountant) firms, and call them up. Tell them you're a pre-med, etc., and ask how many doctors' accounts they work with. Many CPA firms don't charge for an initial consultation, and you can have them handle your taxes for $100 every year.

Keep calling until you get a meeting with one of these firms. You can mention HPSP at the meeting if you want, but your goal is to ask them what they REALLY see in all the doctors they manage with all their huge student loan burdens. Yep, you're going to get the real story about doctors' loans from the horse's mouth. You can then ask what they do to help keep interest manageable, and how you'd build your finances around these loans.

You'll likely find that with good planning and help, a lot of the things you're terrified of and which are driving you towards the HPSP can be managed with sound financial knowledge and discipline. You can emerge with a plan, a budget, and be light-years ahead of your colleagues. It could be the most valuable afternoon you spend this decade.

You don't know what you don't know. Be smart. Go learn some more about your potential financial scenarios from a professional before you make a decision based on your own likely poorly-informed assumptions.

 

[notdeadyet]

As an undergrad I was fortunate enough to get a full scholarship and not have to take any loans despite no outside help, but I feel that just knowing I owe that much money will affect my studies. It is hard to put a price on peace of mind and possibly my performance in school.

95% of med students bite the bullet and take out the loans and manage just fine in medical school. Multi-tasking and dealing with distractions and stress are a big part of medical school and medicine. If knowing you have loans is enough to rock your boat...

 

[notdeadyet]

Ouch, no supporters of HPSP around here.

You'll find some among medical students. Among residents and practicing physicians, the popularity of HPSP goes down dramatically.

If you want to play it smart, do this:

Do one year of medical school without HPSP. See if you're able to hack it "just knowing" that you have loans accumulating interest. Get first hand experience with the different fields of medicine and explore your interests. Hang around a hundred or so other classmates who are also taking out loans and see how they are dealing with it.

One year later, if you still have an interest in HPSP, take it then. You will only have on year of loans taken out and can pay it off handily during your four years as a GMO or during residency/active duty.

Many folks push-back on this idea and say, "woah! I miss out on a year of HPSP benefits!" This is true, but the truer fact is that if you take about 100 people who considered HPSP and didn't end up taking it, I would reckon about 98-99% are happy they didn't.

If you looked at the 100 people who considered HPSP and did end up taking it... well, spend time on these boards. Or talk to your classmates and find out how many folks on HPSP have had their plans radically change since starting medical school. They no longer want to be the guy in dress whites looking off into sea; they are now considering marriage with a wife who gives a $hit about her own career. They no longer want to be the "family doc"; they now want to be a radiologist.

Or most commonly, you'll find as you get ready to start applying for residency programs, most people are happy with the wealth of choices they have in terms of geographic locations, academic vs. community, chances for fellowships/research, or just plain "fit". You'll find folks happy at their ability to have a voice in a choice that has far more impact than medical school did. Folks are happy that all of their hard work is paying off as they try to shape their career.

You'll find that many HPSP folks have a different take. They choose between a very small handful of programs in a very small variety of settings. Their choice is limited to programs that are sub-par compared to their civilian counterparts, or par at best. They have much less voice in the training they'll get that will shape their careers.

If they chose HPSP because they wanted to serve those in uniform and were willing to make big sacrifices to do so, then they're happy. If their main motivation was to avoid loans, they'll realize that they were penny-wise and pound-foolish and will quite possibly turn into one of the folks that look to applicants to med school and say, "Don't do it."

Take a one year breather before applying to HPSP.

 

[rrxcrunner]

I know that it is possible to take out the loans, and pay them back without being homeless. I don't think you would argue that financially you come out a fair bit ahead assuming your specialty starts at under 200k.

Quick low end estimates that I see:
20k bonus
100k in med school (25k x 4)
80k additional salary for military vs civilian (20k x 4)
200k (bare minimum for school and fees that I am considering)
50k (interest accumulating over 10+ years of little/no income)

450k ahead along with 8 years of decent living compared to saving every penny for ramen

Psych may start at 140 as a civilian, maybe 110 in the military

-120k (30k pay cut for 4 years)

Obviously a lot of these numbers are off, some on the high end some on the low end. I don't think anyone would argue that it is financially a good decision if you are not in a high paying specialty. Obviously financial reasons alone can't be considered.

There are the obvious drawbacks:

1. Inability to match in competitive specialties straight out of school
2. Deployments (I don't take being in a remote area as a terrible thing)
3. Authority issues/Mil. Med issues (apparently this is big for some people, although I wouldn't see it as a deal breaker. Military medicine has it's flaws just like civilian medicine)

I would prefer to hear more of the non financial drawbacks, if you guys would be kind enough to share. I am trying to head your warning, because I know it is in good faith.

Also, I don't think my desire to not owe anything can really relate to my ability to manage school/medicine. Just saying..

 

[AF M4]

.

 

[i want out]

Have you ever had a job where quitting meant going to jail?
If you haven't then you don't truly understand what we are trying to tell you.

In my 4 yrs as a GMO I truly tried to understand what the painful part of milmed was. My conclusion was that each thing as a single stress wasn't overwhelming.

But when your working a walk in clinic that was supposed to be staffed by 2 physicians and one or two Independent duty corpsmen and it's just you and one IDC with an endless waiting room. The clinic CO (a nurse that's NEVER deployed in their life) comes through and asks if you got the email that your departure for a six month deployment has been scheduled in SIX days.

They go on to say that you can't even leave to go get your will and affairs in order because they don't have another person to see pts.

You want to scream and then quit and if you were in civilian practice you could quit with a little help from a lawyer, but this is .mil so quitting means jail time since there is no magic way out of a contract that you signed 10 years ago.

And if you don't believe your goals and life will change in 10 years then you should take a close inspection of your life because somebody is lying to you and you should be able to find them in your bathroom mirror.

I AM Out

 

[AF M4]

i want out,

When I was doing my separation briefings, I told a few of the other guys there (maintainers, pilots, etc.) some stories similar to yours about the crap that had become commonplace in my clinic. They were legitimately shocked at how badly we were treated.

 

[oneyearwonder]

The .milmed feasts on the following:

1) idealistic young premeds/MD students
2) debt-phobia

As long as these things exist, the conveyor belt of young captains will keep cow-towing to the clipboard carrying wide load type and will keep getting out at over 90%.

one other thought--the more idealistic the MD going in, the more bitter HPSP'er in the end.

 

[museic]

This thread has made me laugh alot.

Just a few things I noticed:

Most of the guys here that are spilling out their misery are flight surgeons & GMO guys. I think that would suck bad too. That being said if you want to minimize this then go army.

I'm one of those stupid premed/just accepted student's who is overly excited about no debt and wearing a uniform. However I've been like that since I tried to join the USMC on an aviation contract while finishing up my commercial pilot's license. My attitude then is the same as it is now: Don't do it unless you want to serve.

I just want to let the OP know though that if your looking for an unbiased opinion on the mil this is a terrible place. I've talked to many people in real life who have done this route. They all say the same thing: Best decision ever but get used to putting up with BS. No suprise in my opinion. Most of these guys did their four and got out. One huge thing to mention is that none of these guys got stuck on GMO/FS. Once again, do yourself a favor and go army. I'd be pretty ticked too if I somehow got stuck on a GMO tour but that is a chance I'm willing to take (in the army).

Lastly, DON'T do it unless you want to serve.

 

[AF M4]

There's always a selection bias.

Posters on this forum who are very pro-military, thrilled to be in the HPSP, etc. are pretty much all pre-meds and med students who are enjoying the halcyon days of free med school and stipends and have not yet received their first thumpings from the Reality Stick.

The Stick is a good teacher though. It teaches many lessons, and it teaches them well. I am glad for what I learned from the Stick. I recommend against it though if at all possible.

Like the man said, Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.

 

[DocArmy]

<snip>
My attitude then is the same as it is now: Don't do it unless you want to serve.

<snip>
Lastly, DON'T do it unless you want to serve.

To the OP, this is the key point of this thread. Imagine for a moment that you couldn't go to medical school. It was just off the table. Imagine that you were just a college grad looking at jobs. Would you join the military to be an officer? Would that be on your top 10 list?

If you can say yes to this, then HPSP might be a good idea. I have wanted to be an officer in the military for a long time. If I didn't get into medical school, joining the Army as an MSC officer was in my top 10 list of career choices.

I will tell you what I have told others who have asked me about the military while I've been in school. The best way to join the military is to make sure that you have as much leverage as possible. If you join before medical school, they have the leverage because you're broke, they're paying to train you and they get to call the shots. If you wait and do FAP, then they dangle some nice financial rewards in front of you. If you wait until you're an attending to join, you have all the power. You can dictate conditions to them that no HPSP student could. I had an attending who agreed to join the guard ONLY after they guaranteed him the location he wanted, in the job he wanted, with the military schooling he wanted and with a decent signing bonus. It's all about what you're willing to sacrifice.

If I had it to do again, I would have looked harder at the FAP program.

 

[ruiner]

Don't do it for the money. I have heard many people say good things about HPSP (not on this site), but all of them had desire to serve. Don't do it for the money.

 

[J-Rad]

I had an attending who agreed to join the guard ONLY after they guaranteed him the location he wanted, in the job he wanted, with the military schooling he wanted and with a decent signing bonus...

I don't have a problem with the concept of your overall post, but this particular aspect is a somewhat misleading example. This type of scenario is the norm for reserve and Guard jobs, of all types and for almost all comers (who are otherwise qualified for the job in question). It just depends on vacancies in the unit and qualifications (either pre-existing or aptitude for training). This doctor didn't get anything particularly special because he was an attending (other than a likely higher entry rank and his signing bonus amount may have been adjusted because of his prior training). When I was a 21 year old college student I joined the reserve unit I wanted (reasonably close to school), in the job that I wanted (allowed me to train over the summer), and I got a signing bonus and went to basic and tech school. Active duty is another ball of wax. While there might be some benefits to coming in as an attending (you will start at higher ranks, usually major (Lt. CDR) or Lt. Col. (CDR) depending on experience, even pre-trained there is likely going to be a limit to what you are going to get the AD military to "guarantee" you. That devil always gets its due. For the practicing physician, even the Reserve/Guard devil gets its due when it comes to interruption of practice due to training requirements and deployments.

 

[244913]

OP, you've heard the counsel of some old hands, and the fact that you're asking these types of questions puts you light-years ahead of most HPSP lemmings.

You're focused on the money, which is a very bad mistake.

Joining the .Mil with the hope of expanding your residency options is a fool's errand, unless you're a D.O.

My advice is to work hard in medical school and make your own opportunities. Then join via FAP on your own terms if you have a yen to serve.

If you do take the plunge, think hard about that signing bonus- 14K after taxes is a drop in the bucket compared to another year of indentured servitude.

-61N

 

[DocArmy]

Thanks J-Rad. Good clarification.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

Everything in me wants to go to USUHS, but the more I think about it, the more I think FAP is the way to go. I really want to serve and I truthfully cannot wait to become an officer, but I must be able to select the residency I want. I'm worried foremost by the training I will obtain beyond medical school within the military. I want to do surgery, ideally for a FST, but I'm young and eager and things can change. I'm very afraid that USUHS would be the wrong decision.

The additional training in USUHS has been appealing to me, but is it really anything spectacular?

 

[notdeadyet]

Everything in me wants to go to USUHS, but the more I think about it, the more I think FAP is the way to go. I really want to serve and I truthfully cannot wait to become an officer, but I must be able to select the residency I want. I'm worried foremost by the training I will obtain beyond medical school within the military.

Anyone with ambition who really cares about their residency training is going to be hard-pressed to make a case for HPSP or USUHS.

The main motivator for many of us for working our ***** off in medical school is to reap the rewards when it comes time to choosing amongst the perfect residency for ourselves. With HPSP or USUHS, you lose that ability.

I want to do surgery, ideally for a FST, but I'm young and eager and things can change. I'm very afraid that USUHS would be the wrong decision.

That's a mature and insightful viewpoint. Most folks seem to be very confident of how their career will end up before they even take the first step, which is foolhardy. Most people who enter med school with one specialty in mind end up leaving matching into something else altogether.

Also (and this is purely anecdotal), the specialties this seems most true of is folks who enter wanting to do primary care or surgery. Both look great from the outside, but you get a lot of defectors after they've done actual rotations in those fields and been exposed to others.

The additional training in USUHS has been appealing to me, but is it really anything spectacular?

A better question might be, is the additional training at USUHS so spectacular that it makes up for being limited to choosing amongst 3-5 residency options in my field, vs. dozens of top-notch ones in the civilian sector?

 

[chemist157]

Don't do it. The novelty wears off and then you are stuck. Like a previous poster said...what other job will send you to jail if you "quit"? I found myself in the worst personal situation of my life shortly after residency started and it was rather enlightening and frustrating to realize I had no way out of my current commitment. I couldn't "take a year off" or quit if I wanted to. Sometimes just having the option is enough. Also, you have to decide if a considerable chunk of your life spent in the milmed "complex" is something you'd be happy doing and that is not possible unless you have some military experience. There is a lot of BS involved. Case in point, you now can't progress in residency if you don't pass your PT test (yes, if you join you should be able to pass- you knew what you were getting into- and yes I can and do, but it just signifies the priorities of the military...it's not about your education or practice, it is focused rather on the traditional military standards).

I now wish instead of taking the scholarship and working post-residency for 100-120k/yr stuck in some clinic in the middle of nowhere I'd have taken out loans and been able to take a hospitalist job for 220k/yr and live wherever I want.