Premed seeking extracurriculars advice... among other things

[shnjb]

Hello all.
I realize that I should look over all the FAQs and guides before posting such a repetitive topic, but rest assured, I have done a lot of that and there seem to be a lot of nice people who answer very individual-specific questions around here... so here goes.

I'm a "fourth year" student at UCSD studying bioengineering premedical.
My science gpa is around 3.3 with 3.6 being my junior year's science gpa but my non-science is very low at around 3.0.
I'm very different from other seniors, however, in that I have not taken very many courses at all (more like a starting 3rd year in that regard) and because of my bioENGINEERING major, I've taken a lot of non-premed science courses that are completely disastrous to my GPA.
For example, out of five quarters (including repeats) of math I've taken here, I've had 2 C's, 1 F, 1 D and 1 W.
It's quite embarassing really.
Without math, my science gpa goes up to around 3.6.

Also, I've been rather inactive with the extracurriculars.
Thus far I've done:
-a month of volunteering at local hospital (quit because they gave me NOTHIGN to do)
-about 6 months of work at cancer research center at UCSD (very unrewarding experience however)
-a few months of research at ochem research lab (still going on)
-a co-author on a medical school student's future publication on a cancer journal.
-a lot of tutoring
-a lot of working

Clearly, my profile, including both academics and extracurricular activities, looks nothing like that of a pre-medical student with a chance of being enrolled.
This is due to several reasons: 2 years being absolutely wasted on undeclared major with no goals, work-load during those years and laziness.

Currently, I'm taking a KAPLAN MCAT course to really score high on the MCAT in hopes of overcoming my problems with the GPA.
I'm also doing research in organic chemistry lab as I stated above.

My questions then are:

1. What's the best type of hospital to go for rewarding (both experience-wise and networking-wise) volunteering experiences? I've tried a big hospital which left me with absolutely nothing to do and fascinating discussions with a bunch of employees wanting to quit... that wasn't so great.

2. What's the best way to get to know professors? How much do I REALLY need to know them to get good letters of rec.? I know a few professors who saw me excel in their classes and saw me in office-hours, etc... but is that really enough? Currently I can get letters of rec. from professor in charge of my research facility, the head of cancer research center, an ochem professor I got an A from and got to know, and the quality quickly drops to non-professor types who might or might not be so hot for my candidacy.

3. How do I really know if I will be successful as a doctor?
I mean... I've always thought that I was a pretty smart kid (sorry if that sounds arrogant but I think confidence is necessary) and I "think" I can be a good doctor. However, will I be able to be among the top half or perhaps top 10% in a med school for that sweet residency?
I also have some issue with my motivations for wanting to be a doctor.
I'm neither the nicest guy around nor one of those philanthropist types. I'm often a very angry person, and have been called selfish many times by people who know me very well. I'm also very money-driven.
So what exactly makes me want to be a doctor? Knowledge, respect, stability (money) and the ability to have impact on people's lives(with my medicine skills that is).

Many people have told me that one does not go into medicine for money, knowledge and such things that are probably not very honorable.

Does this mean that one who goes into medicine primarily for those things will be unsuccessful?

Any insight will be appreciated! Thank you very much and good luck to you all in your health professional careers.

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[shnjb]

Some more questions...

4. How helpful are post-bac programs for getting in? I've always thought that there must be a catch to such a high entrance rate, besides the tuition.
I'm not a URM but may be considered economically disadvantaged.

5. Will a high MCAT score overcome my GPA? This certainly wasn't the case in college entrance, when my 1500 and 750+ on most of the SAT IIs were not enough to get me into UCLA and UCB... (although UCSD accepted me, it was still a miracle considering 99% of UCSD students were top 10% in HS grad. class but I wasn't one of them.)
How high is high enough? I've read stories of people with 36+ scores on MCATs not getting accepted because of other lacking areas in their application.

 

[shnjb]

bump?

 

[gostudy]

bump?

Originally Posted by parameddan
Ok, here’s a quick soapbox to ponder. I peruse SDN periodically probably once or twice a week and the most common thread I see is the “can I make it thread.” I am not bashing anyone, please don’t get me wrong, but simply asking this question seems to exude insecurity. If one is looking to mimic the perfect medical school applicants profile i.e. 4.0, research on the hottest topic in medicine with authorships of course, volunteer hours out the corn shoot, etc…. wouldn’t medical school be creating a bunch of robots? Shouldn’t we as Pre-meds be looking to plow our own path and really not worry about what others think. I know it is nice to here that “yea, your stats and EC’s are great you are not going to any problems” pat on the back bull****, but that will never secure a place in medical school. It seems the majority of matriculants don’t worry about there stats, they do what they love, do it to perfection, and relay this to the adcomms and watch them drool.

Anyway, give ‘em hell!

Dan

 

[bbas]

1. From my experience, you will never really be able to do anything of major importance while volunteering. Most of your time will be spent helping the nursing staff. I have only volunteered in ER's up to this point, though, so maybe others can shed light on their experiences in different departments. The main point of volunteering, I think, is to understand whats it like to work in a healthcare setting and determine if thats what you want to do.

2. Do well in the class and attend office hours. I don't think theres much more you can do than that.

3. No offense, but you sound like you are going into medicine for the wrong reasons. While it won't make you any less successful of a doctor, per say, you will probably be miserable along the way if your only going into medicine for the reasons you described. As others will attest, there are easier ways to make money if thats what you are really after.

 

[Law2Doc]

Many people have told me that one does not go into medicine for money, knowledge and such things that are probably not very honorable.

Does this mean that one who goes into medicine primarily for those things will be unsuccessful?

Not necessarilly unsuccessful, but pretty likely miserable. Medicine is one of the hardest and most time demanding professions around, with the longest training track and the worst hours. You will have no time to do anything else during rotation and residency years, and will be on the low end of the totem pole of a sometimes demanding and verbally abusive hierarchy. And you won't bring in a decent paycheck for close to a decade. If the actual practice of medicine is something that rocks your boat, you will endure it happilly, and actually enjoy yourself. If you are going into it just to get $ or respect, you will be unhappy, guaranteed. Basically just enduring a long sentence, in hopes of eventually cashing in on something you are not that excited about. It is not a good career path if you find yourself to be an angry and selfish person, because your time is not your own and you are expected to be smart, calm, caring and compassionate with your patients, even while operating without much sleep. The job thus tends to favor the more even keeled folk, not the easilly irritated. I also note that the fact that your first two ECs you list were ones you quickly quit or found unrewarding do not suggest to me a general excitement to get your feet wet in the field, and perhaps suggest a quick impatience with things that do not jibe with your notion of where you belong -- this too is an attitude that might be an impediment for you in medicine, where you start training at the low end, and will find a lot of things you must do unrewarding. But good luck.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I also note that the fact that your first two ECs you list were ones you quickly quit or found unrewarding do not suggest to me a general excitement to get your feet wet in the field

To be fair to the OP, volunteering experiences vary considerably from hospital to hospital. There's been instances where I've been turned off from volunteering merely since you have nothing to do but stand around. Physicians tend to have work to do! As for his research experience, those can either be good or bad as well. If you're stuck being a lab bitch in a lab with a demanding director, you will probably be miserable, especially if you are pipetting and doing menial tasks all the time without much independence. On the other hand, if you are given responsibility and the ability to direct the project in your own direction, research can be a rewarding and productive endeavor.

I'm really tired of many sdn'ers booohooing medicine. Yeah the hours suck and your work is often unappreciated, but please, most of us don't even truly know what it will be like to be a physician, we only have a skewed view, so it is difficult to say whether one will end up liking medicine or not. I'm going on this path after talking to those who have already completed it, and I have weighed many of the pros and cons to make my decision.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm really tired of many sdn'ers booohooing medicine.

I think you misunderstood my post. I said medicine is great if you are into it. But I said it will suck if you are just doing it to get prestige or a paycheck. (which the OP hinted at). I stand by that assessment.

 

[75969]

1. The first place I volunteered was in a MRI room---interesting at first because I could look at the scans, but quickly that turned to a boring sit-around and do NOTHING job. I then bounce from place to place throughout the hospital. The best experiences for me (at this LARGE hospital) were with the service desk (you pretty much do all the running around that nobody else wants to do, lab runs, and discharges<----by far my favorite.
I now volunteer at a small, non-profit children's hospital (also) and I LOVE it!!! The atmosphere is totally different and I feel like I am actually given tasks which directly benefit the kids. I have worked in several areas and while I dont personally love all the tasks, I like the way I make the kids feel. If you like kids, I would HIGHLY recommend finding a similar hospital and tell the volunteer services that you do not want to be a paper pusher.


2. I really dont know---this is a huge problem with my application thus far.

3. I do not think those reasons are good reasons for pursuing medicine because you will probably end up like the staff you heard complaining about their jobs......You can make money more easily in several careers other than medicine. I think a problem with our society is that when a child is smart, they are told that they should become doctors, whien in reality they could (and should) go into a career that INTERESTS them....you can do anything, being hard working, intelligent, etc...will only make you better at what you decide to do.

Does this mean that one who goes into medicine primarily for those things will be unsuccessful?
No, you can become a very successful physician...but, happiness and success are not necessarily synonymous.

 

[DoctorAck]

Here is how I feel about medical school: If you don't wake up every morning thinking about medical school and being a physician in an optimistic, enthusiastic way (especially as a pre-med), then you probably won't make it. Yes, it is difficult, but YES--it is REWARDING. Medical school is SUPPOSED to be difficult--if it were easy, then everyone would be doing it. I know this sounds cliched, but money should not matter, the person who makes an average salary but loves what he/she does will in the long run be more successful (and often more wealthy) than a person who makes a lot of money doing something they hate.

 

[Philo]

-
My questions then are:

1. What's the best type of hospital to go for rewarding (both experience-wise and networking-wise) volunteering experiences? I've tried a big hospital which left me with absolutely nothing to do and fascinating discussions with a bunch of employees wanting to quit... that wasn't so great.

2. What's the best way to get to know professors? How much do I REALLY need to know them to get good letters of rec.? I know a few professors who saw me excel in their classes and saw me in office-hours, etc... but is that really enough? Currently I can get letters of rec. from professor in charge of my research facility, the head of cancer research center, an ochem professor I got an A from and got to know, and the quality quickly drops to non-professor types who might or might not be so hot for my candidacy.

3. How do I really know if I will be successful as a doctor?
I mean... I've always thought that I was a pretty smart kid (sorry if that sounds arrogant but I think confidence is necessary) and I "think" I can be a good doctor. However, will I be able to be among the top half or perhaps top 10% in a med school for that sweet residency?
I also have some issue with my motivations for wanting to be a doctor.
I'm neither the nicest guy around nor one of those philanthropist types. I'm often a very angry person, and have been called selfish many times by people who know me very well. I'm also very money-driven.
So what exactly makes me want to be a doctor? Knowledge, respect, stability (money) and the ability to have impact on people's lives(with my medicine skills that is).

Many people have told me that one does not go into medicine for money, knowledge and such things that are probably not very honorable.

Does this mean that one who goes into medicine primarily for those things will be unsuccessful?

Any insight will be appreciated! Thank you very much and good luck to you all in your health professional careers.

1. As far as volunteer work goes, I have been volunteering in a large, research-intensive private hospital for the last year in the emergency, radiology and the intensive care units and, besides talking to patients, I havn't had much to do. I do not mind though because I volunteer in the hospital to get clinical exposure, I keep my eyes open and simply watch. If you would like to get meaningful volunteer experience, I would volunteer in a soup kitchen, for a charity, or become a mentor but do not expect much from hospitals.

2. Most of the letters of reccomendation that med schools require will come from your profs anyway and you seem to have that covered. I would suggest getting another one from your volunteer coordinator at the hospital or wherever. In my experience, these people are easier to get close to and get along with.

3. a) I don't think anyone here knows if they have what it takes to become a doctor or attain a 'sweet' residency. But, I think everyone here is confident that they can learn. EVERYTHING IS ABOUT LEARNING. People have to be taught things before they can know things and go on to discover things. Furthermore, I think med school is completly different from college, just like college is completly different from highschool. I know of people who just scraped into medical school and struggled all through college and now they are becoming neurosurgeons! Personally, I did really struggled in highschool, I don't even know what my gpa was and I didn't care too much about college. Now I'm in college and I am maintaining a 3.8 gpa. Bottom line, don't worry.

b) As for your motivations for a medical career, I have the EXACT same motivations and I don't care what anyone says, most people go into a career in medicine because they are ambitious and driven by money and prestige. I feel that there is nothing wrong with this. Why can't I/you seek a profession that will help me gain wealth, respect and personal satisfaction. I love to help people too, but its just icing on the cake. I disagree with the other posters (it seems like every sdn poster) when they say that people such as ourselves will be unhappy in a medical career. People always say that if you want money there are easier ways to make it, but this is a half-truth because although you could go into business or law, those careers are dicey, do you think everyone with an MBA makes hundreds of thousands of $? There are many people that work in law firms or business firms that never climb the ladder. In medicine, you are gauranteed to be rich, but in business and law, you have to climb a ladder.

The only advice I can give you, in consideration of your stats, is to do much more extracurricular activities and ace the MCAT. Slow down on the work and take out student loans if you have to because this is an investment in your future. If it doesn't work out, you may have to do a master or sumthing. Best of luck.

 

[shnjb]

1. As far as volunteer work goes, I have been volunteering in a large, research-intensive private hospital for the last year in the emergency, radiology and the intensive care units and, besides talking to patients, I havn't had much to do. I do not mind though because I volunteer in the hospital to get clinical exposure, I keep my eyes open and simply watch. If you would like to get meaningful volunteer experience, I would volunteer in a soup kitchen, for a charity, or become a mentor but do not expect much from hospitals.

2. Most of the letters of reccomendation that med schools require will come from your profs anyway and you seem to have that covered. I would suggest getting another one from your volunteer coordinator at the hospital or wherever. In my experience, these people are easier to get close to and get along with.

3. a) I don't think anyone here knows if they have what it takes to become a doctor or attain a 'sweet' residency. But, I think everyone here is confident that they can learn. EVERYTHING IS ABOUT LEARNING. People have to be taught things before they can know things and go on to discover things. Furthermore, I think med school is completly different from college, just like college is completly different from highschool. I know of people who just scraped into medical school and struggled all through college and now they are becoming neurosurgeons! Personally, I did really struggled in highschool, I don't even know what my gpa was and I didn't care too much about college. Now I'm in college and I am maintaining a 3.8 gpa. Bottom line, don't worry.

b) As for your motivations for a medical career, I have the EXACT same motivations and I don't care what anyone says, most people go into a career in medicine because they are ambitious and driven by money and prestige. I feel that there is nothing wrong with this. Why can't I/you seek a profession that will help me gain wealth, respect and personal satisfaction. I love to help people too, but its just icing on the cake. I disagree with the other posters (it seems like every sdn poster) when they say that people such as ourselves will be unhappy in a medical career. People always say that if you want money there are easier ways to make it, but this is a half-truth because although you could go into business or law, those careers are dicey, do you think everyone with an MBA makes hundreds of thousands of $? There are many people that work in law firms or business firms that never climb the ladder. In medicine, you are gauranteed to be rich, but in business and law, you have to climb a ladder.

The only advice I can give you, in consideration of your stats, is to do much more extracurricular activities and ace the MCAT. Slow down on the work and take out student loans if you have to because this is an investment in your future. If it doesn't work out, you may have to do a master or sumthing. Best of luck.

Thanks for the replies everyone.
This is truly refreshing to talk to fellow pre-meds about such subjects in an open manner.

To the above poster:

Yes, it seems like people like us are usually told to look elsewhere for money, respect, etc. including the medicine admission staff. (from what I hear anyway)

I, too, agree that business and law are too risky and while more money is possible from those fields, the minimum that is guaranteed seems hardly enough.
But most importantly, I have no interest in such fields because I personally feel that the knowledge one gains in practices of business or law is far from being fundamental, and while there may be extremely intelligent lawyers, their education does not impress me at all.

I have some doubts as far as whether my motivations for going into medicine will be enough to keep me motivated throughout medical school but my line of thinking thus far has always been that I will be much more miserable not being a doctor than being even (gasp) a "poor" doctor.

And don't get me wrong, I like helping people too... it's just that it isn't my top priority or the #1 reason for being interested in medicine.
If I really wanted to help people, I could've joined the peace corp or become a missionary, but I want a lot more in my life than helping others.

Thanks everyone for your insight, especially regarding volunteer work.
I guess I really should look into volunteering in the weekends starting this weekend.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

bumping so i can read in the morning when im not too tired to think... going to bed soon weee 4 am is fun.

 

[Law2Doc]

As for your motivations for a medical career, I have the EXACT same motivations and I don't care what anyone says, most people go into a career in medicine because they are ambitious and driven by money and prestige. I feel that there is nothing wrong with this. Why can't I/you seek a profession that will help me gain wealth, respect and personal satisfaction. I love to help people too, but its just icing on the cake. I disagree with the other posters (it seems like every sdn poster) when they say that people such as ourselves will be unhappy in a medical career. People always say that if you want money there are easier ways to make it, but this is a half-truth because although you could go into business or law, those careers are dicey, do you think everyone with an MBA makes hundreds of thousands of $? There are many people that work in law firms or business firms that never climb the ladder. In medicine, you are gauranteed to be rich, but in business and law, you have to climb a ladder.

You are actually going to find that the vast majority of those who go into medicine have primary reasons other than money or prestige. You will be in the minority, not the majority. This is because the track is one that is far more demanding than any other, and will require you to devote more of your life -- which is great if you love it, but a bad idea if it's just an ends to a means. While those other positions you suggest are more dicey, the paths to get there are much much much easier -- you won't have 4 years of school plus the 3-5 years of training before you get a job, and won't be putting your life on hold to such an extent (as many people in medicine do as evidenced by the older marriage and later kids stats).
There are no "guarantees" in life, even in medicine, and in my prior career I have certainly come across more than a fair handful of bankrupt doctors and medical practices -- it happens. (And the average salaries you see are averages, with about half the docs out there earning less than that figure.) And even in medical practices you will need to "climb the ladder" in many cases, first within the hospital hierarchy, and then to move from employee to partner when you go private.
Whenever you see posts on SDN by folks HATING their rotations or residencies and bemoaning how medicine is a bad field, it is inevitably from someone who went into the field wanting something other than the job satisfaction of actually practicing medicine, and so when faced with doing exactly that 24/7, they freak. While there's nothing wrong with having other motivations, they simply won't carry you through the many grueling years involved, without making you miserable. It's not an accident that every secondary app will ask you about your motivations to become a physician, or why indicating a desire for money and prestige in an interview will cost you a good interview score. It's because these motivations simply aren't good indicators of making it through. Not because they are looking for a certain level of altruism, but because they are looking for folks who already WANT to do what they are going to be required to do, and not just serving their prison sentence. Good luck.

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

OP: if you're that insecure, you really need to reconsider what you want to do in the future. gostudy's first reply was absolutely correct.

Best applicants are ones that show motivation, intellectual capacity and maturity. Worrying about your scores, how you'll look, etc. doesn't show any of those characteristics.

 

[shnjb]

OP: if you're that insecure, you really need to reconsider what you want to do in the future. gostudy's first reply was absolutely correct.

Best applicants are ones that show motivation, intellectual capacity and maturity. Worrying about your scores, how you'll look, etc. doesn't show any of those characteristics.

Yeah, I'm sure none of the matriculants have worried about their GPA, their MCAT scores and how their recommendations look to the med schools.

Thanks for your insight.

 

[duckhunter25]

if you're motivated by money and respect to go to medical school IMHO you will drop out sometime during school or residency. If you make it all the way through you could likely be that d@*! of a doctor who seems like you're a nusiance for you being in HIS office taking up HIS time. And the anger problem would not be good either. The world of medicine is very stressful so I imagine that would only get worst.

I would seriously reconsider what you're doing because I would not want to go a doctor who is only doing it for the money. To me it seems wrong and unless you lie well I'd hope the interviewers would catch on to the fact that you're motivation is not what it should be.

 

[DoctorPardi]

One thing to be aware of is this. Money definitely does not buy happiness. Respect does not buy happines. What I did in high school and my first year of college was really think about what I could see myself doing for the rest of my life and be happy.

Ok so I thought about being a lawyer, a pharmacist etc. But either they didn't excite me or they weren't rewarding. I had and I still do have the sense that if I was driven to do anything that I could, because I might be "smart enough". See when I was in high school and a freshmen in college I had no motivation because every career I looked into seemed un-rewarding and something I wouldn't enjoy. So I made bad grades and my first semester I had a 2.75. Since I've brought it up to a 3.67 and have a 4.0 bcpm right now.

So what I am saying is this, you are having trouble making "good grades" in the classes you plan on basing your professional life around and that is a problem. Either you are not smart enough, which I doubt, or you just don't care or are not motivated to try hard for the good grades. If this is the case which I suspect that it is, you need to go into a career that is more personally rewarding.

See, people who are purely geniuses and never study and have photographic memories and minds like calculators can do whatever they want without passion. They can get into PhD programs or medical school with ease. They then can excell at their chosen profession with probably the same ease, but these people are a rare breed. They are probably not happy with their jobs, but they like being a doctor because it might be the highest paying profession or the most respected or whatever. However, you are obviously not one of these people, not to say you are stupid, but you need motivation like the rest of us normal humans to do well. This seems to me to be your biggest problem, you don't seem motivated to volunteer or get clinical experience, you don't seem motivated to concentrate on your grades and you aren't sure if you care about the patients.

So to make a long story short, think about what I said and if you disagree prove me wrong by making all A's this semester and volunteering in an ER the rest of the semester. Don't tell me you can't because right now I have class from 8am-1pm and work in the OR of a hospital from 2:30-11pm monday/wed/fri and tuesday I shadow a doc from 12-7pm and work in a path lab from 7-11pm then thursdays I have labs from 12-5 and work in the path lab again from 5:30-11pm, and I work there sundays as well. However, in my case I am extremely motivated because I have spent my entire teenage years searching for something I can see myself doing for the next 50 years and I finally found it, and I don't think you have.

 

[nekrogg]

for your research lab, how many hours a week did you work. working there lets say 2 hours a week is definently unrewarding. i generally find research labs an awesome place to work because oyu learn cutting edge techinques on the spot. but obviously you did not exploit this opportunity well enough. get more involved and see what you can do, you might really lvoe it!

 

[Law2Doc]

See, people who are purely geniuses and never study and have photographic memories and minds like calculators can do whatever they want without passion. They can get into PhD programs or medical school with ease. They then can excell at their chosen profession with probably the same ease, but these people are a rare breed. They are probably not happy with their jobs, but they like being a doctor because it might be the highest paying profession or the most respected or whatever. However, you are obviously not one of these people, not to say you are stupid, but you need motivation like the rest of us normal humans to do well. This seems to me to be your biggest problem, you don't seem motivated to volunteer or get clinical experience, you don't seem motivated to concentrate on your grades and you aren't sure if you care about the patients.

While I basically agree with your post, DP, bear in mind that medicine is really the combination of two elements, an academic component and an interpersonal component. Thus people with photographic/calculator minds may breeze through one part (confined within the first two years), but then have the additional hurdle to dealing with patients, superiors, underlings. No matter how brilliant you are, you are going to find rotations and residency hard, if only because of the hours. Not to sound like a broken record, but again, for those into it it will be incredibly rewarding, for those not, it may prove unbearable. It's that component which requires you to be passionate or motivated about the profession and/or people more than the other.