Preparation for best chances at residencies

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Darkskies

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Hi,

Here is my situation. I will likely be starting at a relatively competitive DO school(UMDNJ-SOM) this month. I had a 32R MCAT and a 3.46 GPA. I applied to over 20 MD schools, was granted interviews to three and was accepted to none. I was accepted to several highly linked postbaccalaureate courses but I could not afford the tuition for one(didn't qualify for federal loans), one seemed wasteful in that I would be burdened with a debt of over 400k after paying for the master's program and then 4 years of out of state tuition at the MD program(EVMS), and the last I did not submit the deposit money before realizing completion of the program would qualify me for in-state tuition at Ohio schools(University of Cincinnati).

In any case, as a soon to be first year DO student I know that I will already have a handicap when it comes to residency applications. I am unsure as of yet what specialty I would like to pursue(probably not anything surgical) but just so I can try to have the best foot forward I would like to know what I should do for the next 4 years to ensure that I can have the best application for EM, Anesthesia, and Radiology. I am assuming that the three specialties named are the most competitive ones(especially the last) I could be able to obtain as a DO.

Psychiatry and IM are two others that I think would be interesting to me but since they are less competitive they might not be as difficult to match into coming from a DO school. At the same time if I wanted a more competitive or brand name program in the less competitive specialties what should I do? I would also like to stay in the northeast if possible....

I know that taking the USMLE step 1 and 2 and scoring well will be paramount. I think I would try to aim to have research and some publications under my belt too. However, how achievable is this during medical school? Would it be possible to get published over a summer research gig(between MS-1 and MS-2)? Since DO schools are weakly funded in the research arena, how do I go about obtaining a research position and getting published? Likewise, who should I ask for LORs?

Regarding the USMLEs how do I divide my time during second year so that I can study thoroughly for the USMLEs, COMLEX, and schedule these exams appropriately?

Basically, I want to have all my bases as reasonably covered as possible so that I can have as great an application as possible. I suppose it's the best I can do so that the DO degree blemish could be minimized and I would still have most of my options open in case I find out I would like to do something competitive or a residency in a competitive location.

Thanks so much in advance!

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Basically, I want to have all my bases as reasonably covered as possible so that I can have as great an application as possible. I suppose it's the best I can do so that the DO degree blemish could be minimized and I would still have most of my options open in case I find out I would like to do something competitive or a residency in a competitive location

lol, blemish. DOs are the zits of the face of medicine!

as far as some real answers to your questions, if you don't know what you want to do (as you stated) then your only real concentration should be getting awesome scores on USMLE Step 1/Step 2CK. that alone will help your application and open doors for you. research, etc. is nice and all, but if you don't have the scores, or worse yet a failure of Step 1, have fun trying to get into ANY residency.
 
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Screw UMDNJ. Go Caribbean.

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Screw UMDNJ. Go Caribbean.

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I really regret that my thread was moved from general residency to the osteopathic forum. Nowhere did I post that I was better than UMDNJ or osteopathic schools. Instead I just admitted that being a DO will be a handicap and I want to keep as much of my options open as possible so I was looking to see what steps I should take now so that I can 'hit the ground running'. Why would my post warrant a response like the above?
 
If you want an ACGME residency: good grades, great board scores, take both the USMLE and the COMLEX, arrange some audition rotations, do some research.

And relax. You will likely change your mind in your third year about what you think you want to do for residency. At least twice.
 
If you want an ACGME residency: good grades, great board scores, take both the USMLE and the COMLEX, arrange some audition rotations, do some research.

And relax. You will likely change your mind in your third year about what you think you want to do for residency. At least twice.

Thanks Shyrem! I realize that I will likely change my mind about what specialty I would like to do which is why I listed 5 possible ones(EM,Anesthesia,Psych,Rads, IM). I would like to have the most optimal application possible(in case it turns out I like something competitive or would like a less competitive specialty at a name brand program/desirable location) so could you let me know how I could do that?

I know that after board scores and 3rd year grades, research is the most essential(assuming even more impressive as a DO?). How do I go about getting research done and possibly get published? Is there time enough to do that during the summer between MS-1 and MS-2? Since osteopathic institutions aren't generally research heavy what am I supposed to do to get good research done and possibly obtain strong LORs?

Also, how do I schedule the USMLEs and COMLEX exams in a timely manner since I'll have to take both sets of boards?

Since radiology is the most competitive specialty I made mention of should I just shoot for research and maybe publication in radiology and then if I decide I'm not really interested in it/don't have the scores later down the road my research would still be a plus for other specialties, correct?
 
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I really regret that my thread was moved from general residency to the osteopathic forum. Nowhere did I post that I was better than UMDNJ or osteopathic schools. Instead I just admitted that being a DO will be a handicap and I want to keep as much of my options open as possible so I was looking to see what steps I should take now so that I can 'hit the ground running'. Why would my post warrant a response like the above?

If you feel this way about being a DO then you should not have accepted a spot at a DO school and instead gone MD. Really, really sad that DO students are perpetuating the idea that the DO degree is inferior. Turns my stomach.
 
you were full of superiority complex in pre-osteo because of your gpa/mcat. do school was so beneath you:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=932971

and now you're in here projecting an inferiority complex onto do students. what gives?

seriously. stop. do not go to do school. get your md degree and good luck.
 
you were full of superiority complex in pre-osteo because of your gpa/mcat. do school was so beneath you:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=932971

and now you're in here projecting an inferiority complex onto do students. what gives?

seriously. stop. do not go to do school. get your md degree and good luck.

What does my other thread have to do with this brand new one? The other thread I created was to help me decide which route I should take given my situation. It's quite obvious now that I'm going DO. I decided that the 400k+ debt load, another year of loss, and the slight chance of still not obtaining an MD would be too risky. That discussion is now over and done with.

Also Newsflash: DO is a handicap at most ACGME residencies! This is not something to feel inferior about..It is what it is.. Realizing this I want to have the best application possible even though I know certain residencies are now barred for me.

This is ridiculous that commenters are flaming me or contributing irrelevant posts. Nowhere in my opening post was anything written in a condescending or contemptuous way.

Thank you to the posters who have contributed useful and helpful advice. I really do appreciate it. If you would rather post inflammatory responses or bring up old baggage, please do me the favor of refraining from posting. Thanks a bunch!
 
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If you feel that a DO degree will be such a blemish, I don't think you should be attending any DO school. Don't do something unless your believe in it otherwise you will regret it. Regardless of your opinion of the degree, if you complete the program you will be a DO. Be proud not ashamed!
 
If you feel that a DO degree will be such a blemish, I don't think you should be attending any DO school. Don't do something unless your believe in it otherwise you will regret it. Regardless of your opinion of the degree, if you complete the program you will be a DO. Be proud not ashamed!

Thank you. I appreciate that you're trying to help me but it's still true that as a DO you have a disadvantage when it comes to ACGME residencies. This is why I referred to it as a blemish on the overall application. I care about being a physician and not the initials behind my name. I have to attend a DO school because I did not garner an MD acceptance and the only postbacc option available to me would require me incurring over 400k debt and another year of loss which did not seem to be a wise choice on my part. Regardless, I will not be ashamed but content that I am able to practice as a physician which is my goal. I am really not hung up over any DO degree, OMM, or philosophy. The way I see it it's not really about believing in one degree or the other since both DOs and MDs practice almost identically.


That being said I want to present the best application possible on my part so I can have a lot of options open and hopefully match into a program and specialty that I am enthusiastic and proud to be practicing. Hence the questions I proposed in my initial post. I would really appreciate some advice, guidance, and tips! Thanks everyone!
 
Thank you. I appreciate that you're trying to help me but it's still true that as a DO you have a disadvantage when it comes to ACGME residencies. This is why I referred to it as a blemish on the overall application. I care about being a physician and not the initials behind my name. I have to attend a DO school because I did not garner an MD acceptance and the only postbacc option available to me would require me incurring over 400k debt and another year of loss which did not seem to be a wise choice on my part. Regardless, I will not be ashamed but content that I am able to practice as a physician which is my goal. I am really not hung up over any DO degree, OMM, or philosophy. The way I see it it's not really about believing in one degree or the other since both DOs and MDs practice almost identically.


That being said I want to present the best application possible on my part so I can have a lot of options open and hopefully match into a program and specialty that I am enthusiastic and proud to be practicing. Hence the questions I proposed in my initial post. I would really appreciate some advice, guidance, and tips! Thanks everyone!

Just stop mentioning your opinions of the DO degree. Its useless. I think you should more concentrated on your individual school, look up a match list maybe. See what other students have matched. Also when you start, there may be faculty at your school that have strong research affiliations in your area of interest so contact them.

Good luck bud
 
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A week into your classes, you'll forget ALL about these DO worries of yours. You weren't gonna match at Columbia anyway, so don't sweat it! ;)

Work hard. Be positive. Stay informed (after you become so). All will fall into place.
 
Being a DO isn't always a "blemish". There are places out there that don't look down on DOs because they've had good experiences with them. There are even places where DOs are part of the program's leadership. The associate program director was a DO at one of the well-regarded ACGME psych residencies I interviewed at. Since he went to my med school, that gave us something to talk about right away and I think probably helped my chances there more than going to an MD school that he had no connection to.

Network with people in the specialty, work very hard on doing well on both USMLE and COMLEX, and sure, do some research. It certainly doesn't hurt. You'll be fine. Stop stressing out over this. It's really not as big of a deal as you're imagining it is.
 
Agreed. At this point, you are an OMS-0 soon to be OMS-1. You should be more concerned with doing well in your preclinical years, learning as much as you can to build a solid foundation for clinical years, and rocking boards. Without competitive USMLE + COMLEX scores you are going nowhere fast, AOA or ACGME. Research will come (you can do some during the first summer, though publishing in this short amount of time is a crapshoot), but I agree with the posters above that that should not be your focus at this point. Med school is not easy (for anyone). You will find that most of your time during preclinicals you will be much more worried about the next test rather than residency applications.

And yeah, if you come asking for advice on osteo boards, be more tactful of your language. Not everyone views a DO degree as a "blemish" or a "handicap" and not everyone wants a hypercompetitive ACGME residency like you do (now)...
 
Thank you. I appreciate that you're trying to help me but it's still true that as a DO you have a disadvantage when it comes to ACGME residencies. This is why I referred to it as a blemish on the overall application. I care about being a physician and not the initials behind my name. I have to attend a DO school because I did not garner an MD acceptance and the only postbacc option available to me would require me incurring over 400k debt and another year of loss which did not seem to be a wise choice on my part. Regardless, I will not be ashamed but content that I am able to practice as a physician which is my goal. I am really not hung up over any DO degree, OMM, or philosophy. The way I see it it's not really about believing in one degree or the other since both DOs and MDs practice almost identically.


That being said I want to present the best application possible on my part so I can have a lot of options open and hopefully match into a program and specialty that I am enthusiastic and proud to be practicing. Hence the questions I proposed in my initial post. I would really appreciate some advice, guidance, and tips! Thanks everyone!

why dont you wait and see how youre training is before you consider it a blemish.

Residency apps of made up of three basic things:
1. board scores
2. clinical grades
3. LORs

Then you have things like your 1st 2 year grades and ECs

Take it one step at a time. If youre doing a triathalon you dont put your bike shoes on during the swimming part. Just because the biking part is coming up.
 
PLEASE PLEASE do not start Med school in a DO program

You clearly dont deserve that spot. Let someone else who actually does not mind being a DO take your spot.

Not to mention, if you get three interviews at MD schools......apply again this year, im sure you will get in second try
 
Hi,

In any case, as a soon to be first year DO student I know that I will already have a handicap when it comes to residency applications. I am unsure as of yet what specialty I would like to pursue(probably not anything surgical) but just so I can try to have the best foot forward I would like to know what I should do for the next 4 years to ensure that I can have the best application for EM, Anesthesia, and Radiology. I am assuming that the three specialties named are the most competitive ones(especially the last) I could be able to obtain as a DO.

Basically, I want to have all my bases as reasonably covered as possible so that I can have as great an application as possible. I suppose it's the best I can do so that the DO degree blemish could be minimized and I would still have most of my options open in case I find out I would like to do something competitive or a residency in a competitive location.

Thanks so much in advance!

So now that you've demonstrated that you didn't pay attention in Dale Carnegie's, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." courses, I would say that you seriously need to work on your own sense of self-worth. Sorry that the DO degree is so far beneath your abilities and will cause you to not achieve the goals/dreams/whatever you have set for yourself.....I can almost hear the plaintive sniveling along with your posting style....

Please - spare the Osteopathic profession whatever benefits you bring to the table -- I mean, after all, you should not have any problem getting into whatever MD school you chose to apply to and the three rejections were mere blemishes and/or a sudden critical failure of the candidate selection process....Most likely, your attitude came through on your interviews...
 
So now that you've demonstrated that you didn't pay attention in Dale Carnegie's, "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

:laugh: digging deep in the archives. good book (and you gotta love the old school kick it has to it).
 
Hi,

Here is my situation. I will likely be starting at a relatively competitive DO school(UMDNJ-SOM) this month. I had a 32R MCAT and a 3.46 GPA. I applied to over 20 MD schools, was granted interviews to three and was accepted to none. I was accepted to several highly linked postbaccalaureate courses but I could not afford the tuition for one(didn't qualify for federal loans), one seemed wasteful in that I would be burdened with a debt of over 400k after paying for the master's program and then 4 years of out of state tuition at the MD program(EVMS), and the last I did not submit the deposit money before realizing completion of the program would qualify me for in-state tuition at Ohio schools(University of Cincinnati).

In any case, as a soon to be first year DO student I know that I will already have a handicap when it comes to residency applications. I am unsure as of yet what specialty I would like to pursue(probably not anything surgical) but just so I can try to have the best foot forward I would like to know what I should do for the next 4 years to ensure that I can have the best application for EM, Anesthesia, and Radiology. I am assuming that the three specialties named are the most competitive ones(especially the last) I could be able to obtain as a DO.

Psychiatry and IM are two others that I think would be interesting to me but since they are less competitive they might not be as difficult to match into coming from a DO school. At the same time if I wanted a more competitive or brand name program in the less competitive specialties what should I do? I would also like to stay in the northeast if possible....

I know that taking the USMLE step 1 and 2 and scoring well will be paramount. I think I would try to aim to have research and some publications under my belt too. However, how achievable is this during medical school? Would it be possible to get published over a summer research gig(between MS-1 and MS-2)? Since DO schools are weakly funded in the research arena, how do I go about obtaining a research position and getting published? Likewise, who should I ask for LORs?

Regarding the USMLEs how do I divide my time during second year so that I can study thoroughly for the USMLEs, COMLEX, and schedule these exams appropriately?

Basically, I want to have all my bases as reasonably covered as possible so that I can have as great an application as possible. I suppose it's the best I can do so that the DO degree blemish could be minimized and I would still have most of my options open in case I find out I would like to do something competitive or a residency in a competitive location.

Thanks so much in advance!

I really don't know what answer you were looking for. There's no magic trick to becoming a competitive applicant. Work your tail off, perform well on exams, have a good attitude, and the rest will take care of itself.

Good luck.
 
If you feel this way about being a DO then you should not have accepted a spot at a DO school and instead gone MD. Really, really sad that DO students are perpetuating the idea that the DO degree is inferior. Turns my stomach.

Agreed! I CHOOSE to be a DO! Proud of it!!!
 
I suggest that all readers of this thread read the following article:

Academic Medicine 2009 March; 84(3) : 362-367. Green M, Jones P, Thomas JX Jr.

Title: "Selection criteria for residency; results of a national program directors survey."

NOTE: although emanating primarily from LCME affilialted residencies (gee, I wonder why? :)), the data presented in this article are completely relevant to osteopathic medicine.
 
Wow . I mean wow. I think this guy has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. This is actually allowed to be a thread?

We had a kid like you in our class, used to talk about how much it sucked to go to a DO school..........he didn't make it. If your heart's not in it, you got no chance
 
lolzzzzz, Seems like everyone is taking the guy's OP out of context. Didn't seem like he was knocking DOs to me. I figured he was just saying that matching into a competitive ACGME residency may be harder as a DO, which seems especially true for radiology from what I've read in the "What are my chances?" sticky.
 
Ya i was going to say that alot of people went overboard with jumping down this guy's throat when he brings up some valid concerns and seems to genuinely want to increase his chances at a good match. Quite frankly, I cannot find fault with that, but continue to bash him as that seems to be the general trend of the thread.

But, I do find it amusing that premeds are some of the bashers when they obviously havent the foggiest clue the uphill battle we face at times.
 
Darksies, if you spend the rest of your 4 years getting bashed and arguing with people on sdn about your insecurities, that won't help you matching...word of advice: when you ask advice from a group of people, don't look down upon their profession in the process...and if you are naive enough to sincerely not see how you are offending people, then I guess you are really a lost cause

Good grades, good board scores (both USMLE/COMLEX), and good LOR's will be half the battle...not sounding like an insecure buffoon (who is full-of-himself and has serious self-entitlement issues) during the residency interview will be the other half....

Good luck.
 
Darksies, if you spend the rest of your 4 years getting bashed and arguing with people on sdn about your insecurities, that won't help you matching...word of advice: when you ask advice from a group of people, don't look down upon their profession in the process...and if you are naive enough to sincerely not see how you are offending people, then I guess you are really a lost cause

Good grades, good board scores (both USMLE/COMLEX), and good LOR's will be half the battle...not sounding like an insecure buffoon (who is full-of-himself and has serious self-entitlement issues) during the residency interview will be the other half....

Good luck.

Hi guys,

If you were talking about my other thread that was moved to the osteopathic forum from general residency, you might have had a point.. The post I opened this thread with had no ounce of condescension or insecurity(unless you think just mentioning that DOs have a harder time with matching is offensive/derogatory) at all..I just want to make sure I have the most optimal application I can have so that more doors don't close for me.

In that vein, could someone inform me on how I can get good research done and if it's possible to get published during the summer between M1 and M2? If that's somewhat difficult, is it easy to have clinical or case studies done? I know some people perform research at schools with larger research facilities and endowments(via an 'away' at a research institution) but how does one go about doing that and when is there time available?

Everyone is correct in that I should focus on my courses and learning the preclinical material instead of trying to race ahead. I will be very mindful of that but at the same time I think it would be good for me to have a rough outline of what my 4 years should look like. In particular, I would like to know how I can time and schedule my USMLE 1 and 2 exams during the second and third years instead of later finding out that it would be hard for me to perform well on those exams as well as COMLEX 1+2 because I didn't plan appropriately. Does anyone have a ballpark suggestion of how I should time and schedule the COMLEX/USMLE 1s+2s in such a way that I am well prepared for both of them?

Who do most students obtain their LORs from? Is it better to have LORs from MDs when applying to ACGME residencies?

Lastly, I don't necessarily want a hypercompetitive residency since like I stated I am unsure what specialty/field would be amenable to me. As I've already declared multiple times I just want to make sure I cover all of my bases so that I have a lot more choices when it comes time to decide.

Thanks!
 
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Hi guys,

If you were talking about my other thread that was moved to the osteopathic forum from general residency, you might have had a point.. The post I opened this thread with had no ounce of condescension or insecurity(unless you think just mentioning that DOs have a harder time with matching is offensive/derogatory) at all..I just want to make sure I have the most optimal application I can have so that more doors don't close for me.

In that vein, could someone inform me on how I can get good research done and if it's possible to get published during the summer between M1 and M2? If that's somewhat difficult, is it easy to have clinical or case studies done? I know some people perform research at schools with larger research facilities and endowments(via an 'away' at a research institution) but how does one go about doing that and when is there time available?

Everyone is correct in that I should focus on my courses and learning the preclinical material instead of trying to race ahead. I will be very mindful of that but at the same time I think it would be good for me to have a rough outline of what my 4 years should look like. In particular, I would like to know how I can time and schedule my USMLE 1 and 2 exams during the second and third years instead of later finding out that it would be hard for me to perform well on those exams as well as COMLEX 1+2 because I didn't plan appropriately. Does anyone have a ballpark suggestion of how I should time and schedule the COMLEX/USMLE 1s+2s in such a way that I am well prepared for both of them?

Who do most students obtain their LORs from? Is it better to have LORs from MDs when applying to ACGME residencies?

Lastly, I don't necessarily want a hypercompetitive residency since like I stated I am unsure what specialty/field would be amenable to me. As I've already declared multiple times I just want to make sure I cover all of my bases so that I have a lot more choices when it comes time to decide.

Thanks!

You can't just "get published" in the summer between M1 and M2, unless you're lucky and come onto a project at just the right time, and that project has a good chance of getting published, or If you're finishing up a project you've been working in for a while. If you start a brand new project that summer, you'll probably get an abstract and poster, maybe with a presentation, but wont get published.

It really isn't that tough to schedule USMLE and COMLEX. I would recommend taking USMLE before COMLEX as well as giving yourself 5 days maximum in between the two exams. I gave myself a two day break and it would have sucked if I had waited any longer. Once you know when your MS2 will end you'll be able to better gauge when you should schedule the exams. It's really that simple.

You're going a little overboard right now. In memory of the move Friday, "you gotta crawl before you walk." Focus your time learning as much as you can during your first two years. Your primary concern should be to lay a strong foundation for yourself so that board time is a review and you aren't stuck learning things for the first time. Once you do well on step and level 1, then worry about scheduling and taking step/level 2.

If you want to do research, find a cool professor and ask them if they have any projects running or if they accept students for projects. If so, ask if you can work with them.

Other than that, just chill out and take it a day at a time.
 
Hi,

Here is my situation. I will likely be starting at a relatively competitive DO school(UMDNJ-SOM) this month. I had a 32R MCAT and a 3.46 GPA. I applied to over 20 MD schools, was granted interviews to three and was accepted to none. I was accepted to several highly linked postbaccalaureate courses but I could not afford the tuition for one(didn't qualify for federal loans), one seemed wasteful in that I would be burdened with a debt of over 400k after paying for the master's program and then 4 years of out of state tuition at the MD program(EVMS), and the last I did not submit the deposit money before realizing completion of the program would qualify me for in-state tuition at Ohio schools(University of Cincinnati).

In any case, as a soon to be first year DO student I know that I will already have a handicap when it comes to residency applications. I am unsure as of yet what specialty I would like to pursue(probably not anything surgical) but just so I can try to have the best foot forward I would like to know what I should do for the next 4 years to ensure that I can have the best application for EM, Anesthesia, and Radiology. I am assuming that the three specialties named are the most competitive ones(especially the last) I could be able to obtain as a DO.

Psychiatry and IM are two others that I think would be interesting to me but since they are less competitive they might not be as difficult to match into coming from a DO school. At the same time if I wanted a more competitive or brand name program in the less competitive specialties what should I do? I would also like to stay in the northeast if possible....

I know that taking the USMLE step 1 and 2 and scoring well will be paramount. I think I would try to aim to have research and some publications under my belt too. However, how achievable is this during medical school? Would it be possible to get published over a summer research gig(between MS-1 and MS-2)? Since DO schools are weakly funded in the research arena, how do I go about obtaining a research position and getting published? Likewise, who should I ask for LORs?

Regarding the USMLEs how do I divide my time during second year so that I can study thoroughly for the USMLEs, COMLEX, and schedule these exams appropriately?

Basically, I want to have all my bases as reasonably covered as possible so that I can have as great an application as possible. I suppose it's the best I can do so that the DO degree blemish could be minimized and I would still have most of my options open in case I find out I would like to do something competitive or a residency in a competitive location.

Thanks so much in advance!

Hi guys,

If you were talking about my other thread that was moved to the osteopathic forum from general residency, you might have had a point.. The post I opened this thread with had no ounce of condescension or insecurity(unless you think just mentioning that DOs have a harder time with matching is offensive/derogatory) at all..I just want to make sure I have the most optimal application I can have so that more doors don't close for me.

In that vein, could someone inform me on how I can get good research done and if it's possible to get published during the summer between M1 and M2? If that's somewhat difficult, is it easy to have clinical or case studies done? I know some people perform research at schools with larger research facilities and endowments(via an 'away' at a research institution) but how does one go about doing that and when is there time available?

Everyone is correct in that I should focus on my courses and learning the preclinical material instead of trying to race ahead. I will be very mindful of that but at the same time I think it would be good for me to have a rough outline of what my 4 years should look like. In particular, I would like to know how I can time and schedule my USMLE 1 and 2 exams during the second and third years instead of later finding out that it would be hard for me to perform well on those exams as well as COMLEX 1+2 because I didn't plan appropriately. Does anyone have a ballpark suggestion of how I should time and schedule the COMLEX/USMLE 1s+2s in such a way that I am well prepared for both of them?

Who do most students obtain their LORs from? Is it better to have LORs from MDs when applying to ACGME residencies?

Lastly, I don't necessarily want a hypercompetitive residency since like I stated I am unsure what specialty/field would be amenable to me. As I've already declared multiple times I just want to make sure I cover all of my bases so that I have a lot more choices when it comes time to decide.

Thanks!

Now do you see what is offensive here or are you still too focused on your self-entitlement issues to miss it?
 
If you are offended by his post you have issues because their is truth to his concern. Ignoring a valid concern because you are easily offended is not his problem but your own.
 
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Yea, I figured the way he used blemish was only meant to describe how the competitive ACGME residencies may feel about the D.O. degree on his residency application.
 
Yea, I figured the way he used blemish was only meant to describe how the competitive ACGME residencies may feel about the D.O. degree on his residency application.

Exactly! Thanks for backing me up, jkhanh and sylvanthus. My reference to the DO degree being a blemish on one's application is that I was thinking a residency director would consider it to be one upon first review. I am assuming that the DO degree would evoke a similar response as when the director would see that the applicant is an FMG(or had low board scores, bad clinical grades,etc.) despite the rest of the application being stellar in terms of board scores, LORs,clinical grades,etc.

Instead of bashing me, if this thread generates enough responses from experienced med students, physicians and residents(Shyrem, MrBeauregard,etc.) who have been through(or are going through) the match and obtaining residencies in the specialties of their choice, we could all stand to gain on how to make the most of our educations.
 
I'm currently a 4th year DO student getting everything together to apply to allo IM and let me tell ya...the degree is indeed a 'blemish' to many people.

I have competitive grades and USMLE scores that would probably allow me to land interviews at a good number of top 20 IM programs...if I were an MD student. You have no idea how many good IM programs have never taken a DO before (and likely never will), and how frustrating it is to realize that people with equal or lesser credentials on the MD side are landing interviews easily at those same places. I would have many more quality academic programs open to me in the locations in which I'd like to match if I weren't a DO.

(And premeds...kindly spare me the lecturing about how I should want to go to DO residencies because I'm a DO etc. I'm not trying to put anyone down here, but I was exposed to some of these programs as a third year on rotations and quite honestly...the quality of DO GME training is awfully subpar in many situations. You'll see what I mean when you get there.)
 
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I'm currently a 4th year DO student getting everything together to apply to allo IM and let me tell ya...the degree is indeed a 'blemish' to many people.

I have competitive grades and USMLE scores that would probably allow me to land interviews at a good number of top 20 IM programs...if I were an MD student. You have no idea how many good IM programs have never taken a DO before (and likely never will), and how frustrating it is to realize that people with equal or lesser credentials on the MD side are landing interviews easily at those same places. I would have many more quality academic programs open to me in the locations in which I'd like to match if I weren't a DO.

(And premeds...kindly spare me the lecturing about how I should want to go to DO residencies because I'm a DO etc. I'm not trying to put anyone down here, but I was exposed to some of these programs as a third year on rotations and quite honestly...the quality of DO GME training is awfully subpar in many situations. You'll see what I mean when you get there.)

:thumbup: The truth hurts but people need to be more realistic
 
I'm currently a 4th year DO student getting everything together to apply to allo IM and let me tell ya...the degree is indeed a 'blemish' to many people.

I have competitive grades and USMLE scores that would probably allow me to land interviews at a good number of top 20 IM programs...if I were an MD student. You have no idea how many good IM programs have never taken a DO before (and likely never will), and how frustrating it is to realize that people with equal or lesser credentials on the MD side are landing interviews easily at those same places. I would have many more quality academic programs open to me in the locations in which I'd like to match if I weren't a DO.

(And premeds...kindly spare me the lecturing about how I should want to go to DO residencies because I'm a DO etc. I'm not trying to put anyone down here, but I was exposed to some of these programs as a third year on rotations and quite honestly...the quality of DO GME training is awfully subpar in many situations. You'll see what I mean when you get there.)
I'm assuming you didn't know this was the reality of the situation before you entered DO school?
 
I'm currently a 4th year DO student getting everything together to apply to allo IM and let me tell ya...the degree is indeed a 'blemish' to many people.

I have competitive grades and USMLE scores that would probably allow me to land interviews at a good number of top 20 IM programs...if I were an MD student. You have no idea how many good IM programs have never taken a DO before (and likely never will), and how frustrating it is to realize that people with equal or lesser credentials on the MD side are landing interviews easily at those same places. I would have many more quality academic programs open to me in the locations in which I'd like to match if I weren't a DO.

(And premeds...kindly spare me the lecturing about how I should want to go to DO residencies because I'm a DO etc. I'm not trying to put anyone down here, but I was exposed to some of these programs as a third year on rotations and quite honestly...the quality of DO GME training is awfully subpar in many situations. You'll see what I mean when you get there.)

1st world problems bro.

Seriously, what will you do if you don't land a top 20 IM residency? I mean, your chances at becoming an internalist are basically shot at that point right?

I hope you have some mop and broom experience 'cause you might be able to get a top 20 custodial residency. I hear Cornell takes DO's for that program.
 
1st world problems bro.

Seriously, what will you do if you don't land a top 20 IM residency? I mean, your chances at becoming an internalist are basically shot at that point right?

I hope you have some mop and broom experience 'cause you might be able to get a top 20 custodial residency. I hear Cornell takes DO's for that program.

Ok, I admit I probably came on too strong in the initial post.

I'm honestly not that bothered by it. There are still many solid programs DOs have access to on the MD side, and my ability to do fellowships etc will still be solid. I'm not actually as bitter as I probably sounded...there are still many programs I'd be very happy to match at on my list as of now.

Yes, I knew of the realities of being a DO when I applied to med school. However, what makes the problem worse is that the increasing size of the MD graduate pool has made it so that a number of excellent programs who formerly matched DOs have opted not to do so any longer. This isn't a huge issue...yet. The question is how much the further the door will close once the really big MD class sizes start hitting the match in the next few years. As you may know, the total number of DO residency slots isn't even close to being able to accommodate every DO graduate...thus, the DO side nationally essentially relies on being able have a huge number of DO graduates go to MD residencies every year. If this is jeopardized by the MDs filling their own programs with MD graduates, where do the rest of the DOs go?

This is reality, and it goes way beyond me being able to match a top IM spot etc. It's a serious issue. I'm not ashamed of my DO education at all - quite the opposite. But the reality is not always as rosy as it gets presented here.
 
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Ok, I admit I probably came on too strong in the initial post.

I'm honestly not that bothered by it. There are still many solid programs DOs have access to on the MD side, and my ability to do fellowships etc will still be solid. I'm not actually as bitter as I probably sounded...there are still many programs I'd be very happy to match at on my list as of now.

Glad to hear it, I probably came off a bit strong too. I just get annoyed by the SDN mantra that your Undergrad, Medical School, Residency etc has to be top 20 or top 10 or top 43 or whatever to be worth attending.

Not that you were trying to imply that, but on it's face that's how it came off to me.

Yes, I knew of the realities of being a DO when I applied to med school. However, what makes the problem worse is that the increasing size of the MD graduate pool has made it so that a number of excellent programs who formerly matched DOs have opted not to do so any longer. This isn't a huge issue...yet. The question is how much the further the door will close once the really big MD class sizes start hitting the match in the next few years. As you may know, the total number of DO residency slots isn't even close to being able to accommodate every DO graduate...thus, the DO side nationally essentially relies on being able have a huge number of DO graduates go to MD residencies every year. If this is jeopardized by the MDs filling their own programs with MD graduates, where do the rest of the DOs go?

This is reality, and it goes way beyond me being able to match a top IM spot etc. It's a serious issue. I'm not ashamed of my DO education at all - quite the opposite. But the reality is not always as rosy as it gets presented here.

It's true, I think that some people want to disparage anyone who might want to attend a DO school; while others hold on to this fantasy that DO is somehow better than MD. At the end of the day, unless you absolutely have to have that elusive Columbia IM spot, or you must do Rad Onc. or something along those lines, you should be able to become the type of doctor you want to be as a DO or MD, it shouldn't be a huge concern. If you're willing to do whatever it takes, there's no reason to get overly hung up on where you go to school IMO.

Sorry to hear that some of the programs you've had your eye on are tightening up for DO's. I've experienced just the opposite here. I'm fairly certain that I want to do IM as well, with an eye for a possible Cardiology, Pulmonology, or Nephrology fellowship (based on what I've seen/done so far in school). I moved out of state for school, I loved my home state and would probably want to move back as soon as I can. I wasn't happy with the state MD school, and didn't apply. But I'd love to do residency there. In the past, the IM program had a stated limit on how many DO's they would take each year. I wasn't too optimistic about being able to move back till after residency/fellowship. But within the past few months, they've removed the language restricting DO's; there has been language added to restrict IMG's but the DO language is gone now. It seems, at least on the surface, that the program may be much more willing to accept DO grads now and that makes me excited.

Either way, even if I can't move home for a while. I'm still proud of my education, love the school I'm at, and couldn't imagine it any other way. I (and anyone else for that matter) am extremely fortunate to be able to attend medical school in the first place.

Good luck with the match, I hope it goes well for you. I wish it were easier to follow people's progress on here because I'd really be interested in finding out exactly how it goes down for you.
 
I'm currently a 4th year DO student getting everything together to apply to allo IM and let me tell ya...the degree is indeed a 'blemish' to many people.

I have competitive grades and USMLE scores that would probably allow me to land interviews at a good number of top 20 IM programs...if I were an MD student. You have no idea how many good IM programs have never taken a DO before (and likely never will), and how frustrating it is to realize that people with equal or lesser credentials on the MD side are landing interviews easily at those same places. I would have many more quality academic programs open to me in the locations in which I'd like to match if I weren't a DO.

(And premeds...kindly spare me the lecturing about how I should want to go to DO residencies because I'm a DO etc. I'm not trying to put anyone down here, but I was exposed to some of these programs as a third year on rotations and quite honestly...the quality of DO GME training is awfully subpar in many situations. You'll see what I mean when you get there.)


Top 20 IM program? There is a list. Most DO residencies are at community hospitals, which have strong exposure to plain old quality clinical medicine, you know with the patients and stuff. Not many are at academic centers, which is probably what you think makes something "top 20". What each person is looking for in a residency is different.
 
Top 20 IM program? There is a list. Most DO residencies are at community hospitals, which have strong exposure to plain old quality clinical medicine, you know with the patients and stuff. Not many are at academic centers, which is probably what you think makes something "top 20". What each person is looking for in a residency is different.

I'm not disparaging community programs - in fact, I have a good number of good allo community programs on my list. As I see it, the problems with simply going to DO community residencies are as follows:

1) There quality of the training at some programs is...questionable. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but I saw some things on 3rd year rotations that really raised my eyebrows. I saw IM interns and residents in some programs that seemed to have very little authority - the IM services would be dominated by private practice docs that literally insisted on doing everything, even down to writing their own notes - which left the residents essentially functioning at the level of a 3rd/4th year medical student. The only time these residents had much authority was when they were on call. At one program, there was discussion of switching all codes to be run by the EM staff - meaning that you could have graduating IM residents that had never run a code before (!?!). Stuff like this isn't cool, and it isn't quality training. I definitely felt sorry for the residents at times during these rotations - this was their training, after all.

I agree that some of the bottom of the barrel allo community programs probably aren't much better, but that's still no excuse.

I'll also volunteer that there are some very solid osteopathic training centers out there (Sparrow, Ingham, Doctors/OhioHealth, and certainly others). However...

2) The fellowship matching potential out of these programs is still problematic. Osteopathic fellowship training is still developing - in many IM subspecialties, for instance, there aren't many locations that have fellowships available, and they're often in oddball locations. Do you want to move your wife and kid out to rural Kentucky for a fellowship when there are potentially many available in more desirable locales on the allo side? It is exceedingly difficult to score ACGME fellowship matches as an AOA residency graduate, since there are issues with boarding etc...so you tend to be limited to AOA fellowships.

3) The ability to participate in research often isn't as robust as it is on the ACGME side.

4) In some specialties (anesthesiology, sometimes rads, some surgical specialties) AOA boarding is seen as less desirable and can mean that you can't work at some facilities that demand ACGME boarding.

But you're right - it is highly dependent on what you want. If it's primary care, then you may find most of these issues to be irrelevant and an AOA residency might be quite suitable for you. As for myself, I'm 1) geographically limited in the match and 2) slightly perturbed that some residency programs are off the table in areas my wife and I would like to go (we have a kid, need family backup) just because I'm not an MD. Especially when I have credentials that would otherwise make me eligible for such places.

I'm also unsure of what I'd like to do post-residency (probably heme/onc, but still looking around) and as such would prefer not to shut the door on options prematurely.

These are issues that come to a head when you actually start applying to residencies and figuring out what you want to do and where you want to live - and they're important. Especially if you have a family.

I'm not bashing anyone's choice for residency here, and I've encountered very sharp DO residency graduates who I'd pick to be my doc any day of the week.

Getting back to what the OP is saying - I don't view my degree as a 'blemish' at all. But I think the OP was simply pointing out that unfortunately some arenas within the medical profession view it as a 'blemish', and that does in fact suck.
 
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I'm currently a 4th year DO student getting everything together to apply to allo IM and let me tell ya...the degree is indeed a 'blemish' to many people.

I have competitive grades and USMLE scores that would probably allow me to land interviews at a good number of top 20 IM programs...if I were an MD student. You have no idea how many good IM programs have never taken a DO before (and likely never will), and how frustrating it is to realize that people with equal or lesser credentials on the MD side are landing interviews easily at those same places. I would have many more quality academic programs open to me in the locations in which I'd like to match if I weren't a DO.

(And premeds...kindly spare me the lecturing about how I should want to go to DO residencies because I'm a DO etc. I'm not trying to put anyone down here, but I was exposed to some of these programs as a third year on rotations and quite honestly...the quality of DO GME training is awfully subpar in many situations. You'll see what I mean when you get there.)

With the exception of the top 7-10ish programs (mgh, columbia, UCSF, etc), almost all other top IM programs with very few exceptions have taken DOs in the past. FYI, everyone who gets interviews/matches at these programs has good/competitive board scores and then some (extensive research, leadership, PhD, great LORs, etc.). The application season hasn't even started bro... If you really are as competitive as you think you are, you will have no problem matching at a top program with the above exception. Also, being an allopathic student doesn't guarantee s*** when talking about top IM programs (unless you are from a top school). There are plenty of very competitive allo applicants (240+ on step I and II) who don't get interviews at these places (I refer you to the IM threads from last year). For a top IM program you are competing against the best of the best. IM is one of the easiest and one of the hardest (when talking about top programs) to match into.

As a DO who just went through the application/match for IM, I was treated no different than my colleagues from low-mid tier allopathic schools for IM interviews/final match (given the positives and negatives of my stats/CV). Good Luck :luck:
 
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1st world problems bro.

Seriously, what will you do if you don't land a top 20 IM residency? I mean, your chances at becoming an internalist are basically shot at that point right?

I hope you have some mop and broom experience 'cause you might be able to get a top 20 custodial residency. I hear Cornell takes DO's for that program.

Ad hominem. You're missing the point.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk
 
I'm not disparaging community programs - in fact, I have a good number of good allo community programs on my list. As I see it, the problems with simply going to DO community residencies are as follows:

1) There quality of the training at some programs is...questionable. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but I saw some things on 3rd year rotations that really raised my eyebrows. I saw IM interns and residents in some programs that seemed to have very little authority - the IM services would be dominated by private practice docs that literally insisted on doing everything, even down to writing their own notes - which left the residents essentially functioning at the level of a 3rd/4th year medical student. The only time these residents had much authority was when they were on call. At one program, there was discussion of switching all codes to be run by the EM staff - meaning that you could have graduating IM residents that had never run a code before (!?!). Stuff like this isn't cool, and it isn't quality training. I definitely felt sorry for the residents at times during these rotations - this was their training, after all.

I agree that some of the bottom of the barrel allo community programs probably aren't much better, but that's still no excuse.

I'll also volunteer that there are some very solid osteopathic training centers out there (Sparrow, Ingham, Doctors/OhioHealth, and certainly others). However...

2) The fellowship matching potential out of these programs is still problematic. Osteopathic fellowship training is still developing - in many IM subspecialties, for instance, there aren't many locations that have fellowships available, and they're often in oddball locations. Do you want to move your wife and kid out to rural Kentucky for a fellowship when there are potentially many available in more desirable locales on the allo side? It is exceedingly difficult to score ACGME fellowship matches as an AOA residency graduate, since there are issues with boarding etc...so you tend to be limited to AOA fellowships.

3) The ability to participate in research often isn't as robust as it is on the ACGME side.

4) In some specialties (anesthesiology, sometimes rads, some surgical specialties) AOA boarding is seen as less desirable and can mean that you can't work at some facilities that demand ACGME boarding.

But you're right - it is highly dependent on what you want. If it's primary care, then you may find most of these issues to be irrelevant and an AOA residency might be quite suitable for you. As for myself, I'm 1) geographically limited in the match and 2) slightly perturbed that some residency programs are off the table in areas my wife and I would like to go (we have a kid, need family backup) just because I'm not an MD. Especially when I have credentials that would otherwise make me eligible for such places.

I'm also unsure of what I'd like to do post-residency (probably heme/onc, but still looking around) and as such would prefer not to shut the door on options prematurely.

These are issues that come to a head when you actually start applying to residencies and figuring out what you want to do and where you want to live - and they're important. Especially if you have a family.

I'm not bashing anyone's choice for residency here, and I've encountered very sharp DO residency graduates who I'd pick to be my doc any day of the week.

Getting back to what the OP is saying - I don't view my degree as a 'blemish' at all. But I think the OP was simply pointing out that unfortunately some arenas within the medical profession view it as a 'blemish', and that does in fact suck.


I'm not gonna troll dude, deep down everything your saying is spot on. The thing about residency is that it really does come down to what you individually want with your life, rather thank just the best program.

I too have a wife and would like to start a family in the recent future, and to be honest I base most of my decisions about what medicine to practice on that. I am just fortunate to go to MSUCOM and live in MI where almost all of the AOA residencies are, so I have more options than most DO graduates. Also in MI because MSU has such a presence, even the allo programs are very DO friendly (except for UofM, but nobody likes them anyway) For me i think, if the MD's don't want us I don't want to bother with them, but again I admit that it might not be that possible for DO's in other places

Its messed up because we spend sooooo much of our life training to be a doctor, take out massive amount of loans, and the system kinda just sucks the life out of you. I wish you the best man, good luck with your future and your family.
 
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