Presentations w/o written prompts

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Stillwater45

Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2004
Messages
127
Reaction score
12
I was looking over the criteria for honors on my clinical rotations, and most rotations required students to be able to present patients without any written prompts (notes). Is this common? Why is this important? Any tips on how to do this? Thanks

Members don't see this ad.
 
I was looking over the criteria for honors on my clinical rotations, and most rotations required students to be able to present patients without any written prompts (notes). Is this common? Why is this important? Any tips on how to do this? Thanks


It's not important (except, of course for honors). Figure out what your attending wants. Our syllabus said something similar, but the first day my attending told me (before I even presented a patient) "Don't start this BS with not presenting from notes... it's silly".

Most of the younger attendings at my hospital prefer you present with prompts (makes the presentation faster... nothing drags things out more than having a student "ummm...." their way through a presentation they're trying to remember). The older attendings take presenting from notes as a sign you don't really know your patient very well. The best way to do this is to know your patient, and figure out a way to tell the story. Tell the HPI as a story. Go through the rest the way you go through a note. I'd keep an index card with any data, just because you really don't want to mess the data up.

Best,
Anka
 
I was looking over the criteria for honors on my clinical rotations, and most rotations required students to be able to present patients without any written prompts (notes). Is this common? Why is this important? Any tips on how to do this? Thanks

Sounds a bit weird, I can only think that this would either test your ability to memorize or how well you know your patients. However, I do know some schools which expect you to present a detailed history without referring to any notes, but these students only have at most, 3 patients each.
Why is it important? Doctors need to have good memories:laugh:

It's going to be hard when you have anything more than 10 patients or the input/output is high, for example Obstetrics. I'm not saying that it cannot be done but you'll have to be prepared to put in longer hours.

Firstly, familiarize yourself with the executive summary, see if there's a format which your school adheres to, if not, I'm sure you would be able to find some pointers here and there. The summary varies from rotation to rotation but the main points would be patient details, presenting complaint, diagnosis, his/her current condition, any updated investigation results and your plan of management.
You can probably glance at the patient's details from any nearby notes, the rest, spend more time with the patients and remember their faces, it'll help.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It's not important (except, of course for honors). Figure out what your attending wants. Our syllabus said something similar, but the first day my attending told me (before I even presented a patient) "Don't start this BS with not presenting from notes... it's silly".

Most of the younger attendings at my hospital prefer you present with prompts (makes the presentation faster... nothing drags things out more than having a student "ummm...." their way through a presentation they're trying to remember). The older attendings take presenting from notes as a sign you don't really know your patient very well.

Interesting, I'm much more accustomed to the attitude in the portion of your post that I bolded. I can count on one hand the number of attendings and residents who wanted me to have notes during presentations.

The most common reasons I heard cited were:

1) Reading from notes makes it look like you don't know your patients

2) Shuffling through notes actually makes the presentation take longer
 
1) Reading from notes makes it look like you don't know your patients

2) Shuffling through notes actually makes the presentation take longer

It depends on the individual, if you have notes and you arrange them well, and not shuffle your way through your presentation, for example one note per patient with the bed number bolded right on top,with the entire stack in sequence BEFORE rounds, it shouldn't be a problem.

At the end of the day, whether you're presenting with or without notes, just stay calm. The more you panic, the more you start reshuffling not only your notes but also your thoughts.
 
I was looking over the criteria for honors on my clinical rotations, and most rotations required students to be able to present patients without any written prompts (notes). Is this common? Why is this important? Any tips on how to do this? Thanks

As a Sub-I, I worked in the ICU with an attending who insisted that I memorize every single lab value on my patients, and then recite them in a specific order on rounds. I had around 4-8 ICU patients at a time, all with daily labs.....it made me near murderous.

On the weekends, when I was rounding for myself and the other sub I, he expected me to memorize the labs for those patients as well.

That tacks on some time to your pre-rounding......
 
Stillwater45 raises an important issue regarding presentations. I'll share with you an excerpt from my book - 250 Biggest Mistakes 3rd Year Medical Students Make And How To Avoid Them - that addresses some of the questions raised:

Mistake # 84 - Presenting a verbatim reading of the patient's write-up

The oral case presentation should not be a verbatim reading of the patient's write-up. Instead, it should be a carefully edited version of the write-up. Oral and written case presentations have different purposes. The latter is much more comprehensive. Oral presentations, however, are meant to rapidly convey key information. By reading your write-up aloud for the oral presentation, you will present information that is overly detailed.

It is also difficult, if not impossible, to keep the attention of the audience if you present a verbatim reading of your write-up. When presenting, you need to keep the audience engaged and interested. That's difficult to do if you are reading the write-up out loud. Lesser reliance on notes allows you to maintain eye contact with your listeners, which helps keep your audience interested. It also conveys to the attending that you have a firm grasp on your patient's medical problems. Keep in mind that it is acceptable to glance at your notes occasionally. For example, when reporting medication dosages and laboratory data, it may be necessary to refer to your notes. If you are able to deliver polished oral case presentations without relying too heavily on notes, you will be seen as an accomplished, effective student.

From 250 Biggest Mistakes 3rd Year Medical Students Make And How To Avoid Them Page 81 (copyright 2007 Samir Desai and Rajani Katta)



Here are some other tips:

1) Learn about your attending's expectations with regards to this early in the rotation. Don't assume that a younger attending doesn't care if you use notes. I know plenty of younger attendings who do care.

2) If your attending says "I would like for you to present with minimal notes," then, for your first presentation, memorize only the HPI. Have your HPI handy in case you freeze or draw a blank (but don't read it unless you must). If you do fine with the memorized HPI, then on presentation # 2, memorize the PMH/PSH, and so on. With this approach, you will gain confidence. My students have done well using this approach.

3) If your attending says "It's no big deal. You can use your notes," you have his permission to do so. However, don't assume that he will be impressed to the same degree as someone who does it with a paucity of notes. I don't require students to present without notes but I do tell them the advantages. I also tell them that, if the evaluation form prizes the student who presents with minimal notes, I won't be able to give them the highest mark in that area unless they present well without using too much in the way notes. I would have to stay true to the evaluation form.

4) Most attendings won't mind if you read medication dosages, lab test results, etc. Even with lab tests, though, it's not too hard to remember them. For example, if the hemoglobin is abnormal but the rest of the CBC is normal, all you have to do is say "Hemoglobin 9.3 with the rest of the CBC normal." Using this technique, you can save yourself from having to memorize normal lab data.

Hope that helps,
 
I've never heard of this being an issue. No attending or resident at our school has ever brought this up, but then I've never seen anyone read verbatim from their notes. Why memorize stuff that you can read? Especially labs!! It all sounds ridiculous.
 
I've never heard of this being an issue. No attending or resident at our school has ever brought this up, but then I've never seen anyone read verbatim from their notes. Why memorize stuff that you can read? Especially labs!! It all sounds ridiculous.

Frankly, I find that hard to believe.
 
Frankly, I find that hard to believe.

Well it's true. Why would did be an issue? Every one has notes on the patients, including the residents. Everyone writes down daily labs and test results and uses this info during rounds. No one is reading CC, HPI, etc etc verbatim from a paper. Who would expect you to memorize labs and crap?
 
Generally you may have labs written on a card, especially for patients with long lists of labs obtained every day. Just be good about having it ready, and make the rest of your presentation flow as best you can. After you do it for a while, you will start to remember some of the key labs and be able to spit them out as you are going, making your card looking much less obvious.
 
Well it's true. Why would did be an issue? Every one has notes on the patients, including the residents. Everyone writes down daily labs and test results and uses this info during rounds. No one is reading CC, HPI, etc etc verbatim from a paper. Who would expect you to memorize labs and crap?

I suprised you've never heard this. It runs rampant throughout medicine, and there is long tradition of bagging on students/residents who dare to refer to notes. Who would expect it? How about everyone.

Anyway, you should be aware of this for if you do any away rotations.
 
we started working on memorizing presentations way back in our first year intro to clinical medicine course. by this point at the end of 3rd year it's a familiar task to rattle off a concise h&p from memory. do note that this is not the whole shebang as written as pointed out by the book author above: many sections as appropriate are omitted with just a passing mention that they are non-contributory.

again, going with the author's advice, i don't memorize normal lab values, but key things go in the brain for quick reference if asked (hct in an anemic patient, a cyclosporin level in a crohn's patient, A1C in a diabetic, BNP in a CHFer, etc.).
 
I also think some people are innately better at quick memorization -- in clinical medicine this is at times more important than careful deliberation (which is a test taking skill). Also I tend to be much better with reading/writing fluency than speaking/listening fluency. All of these use different areas of the brain...

Also important of course is fund of knowledge and fund of practical knowledge.
 
Top