pressure and blood vessels

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

chiddler

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,439
Reaction score
4
If there is a solid in an artery or vein, forming a clot, assuming blood pressure does not change, this would NOT increase oncotic pressure, right?

because it's a solid and solids don't contribute to osmolarity

Also i'm trying to understand what "osmotic pressure" means in the context of blood vessels. I understand the pressure concept, but is it accurate to equate osmotic pressure with oncotic pressure or hydrostatic pressure?

...or both, but depends on frame of reference?

Members don't see this ad.
 
If there is a solid in an artery or vein, forming a clot, assuming blood pressure does not change, this would NOT increase oncotic pressure, right?

because it's a solid and solids don't contribute to osmolarity

Also i'm trying to understand what "osmotic pressure" means in the context of blood vessels. I understand the pressure concept, but is it accurate to equate osmotic pressure with oncotic pressure or hydrostatic pressure?

...or both, but depends on frame of reference?

I believe you are correct about a clot not changing osmolality.

From what I've learned, oncotic pressure is a type of osmotic pressure specific to physio. So basically they are the same thing. In the context of blood vessels, oncotic (osmotic) pressure results from the amount of solutes in the lumen and on the other side of the lumen. Whoever has more solutes wins the tug of war for water. Hydrostatic pressure is just your blood pressure; the pressure that the blood exerts against the lumen of the vessel.
 
Is hydrostatic pressure a form of osmotic pressure?

I don't think so. I think hydrostatic is based only on the fluid volume and area of the container. I believe hydrostatic pressure follows P=F/A.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I don't think so. I think hydrostatic is based only on the fluid volume and area of the container. I believe hydrostatic pressure follows P=F/A.

perhaps you're mistaken. Remember how hydrostatic = oncotic there is no net fluid flow? this suggests that they are both forms of osmotic pressure.

for contrast:

Osmotic pressure is the pressure which needs to be applied to a solution to prevent the inward flow of water.

given this explicit definition, what do you think?
 
perhaps you're mistaken. Remember how hydrostatic = oncotic there is no net fluid flow? this suggests that they are both forms of osmotic pressure.

for contrast:

Osmotic pressure is the pressure which needs to be applied to a solution to prevent the inward flow of water.

given this explicit definition, what do you think?

I don't understand how that suggests that hydrostatic is a form of osmotic. Hydrostatic pressure pushes water out because fluid is pushing on the semipermeable membrane (capillary). Oncotic is the gradient between the capillary and the cells (or interstitium) due to solute concentration differences. Usually blood is hypertonic to the interstitial fluid, which creates an oncotic gradient that counteracts the hydrostatic pressure created by blood flow. So yes, when hydrostatic = oncotic, there is no net flow but I don't know what about that makes hydrostatic a form of osmotic.

As for that definition of osmotic pressure; When osmotic pressure is high, water really really really wants to flow so in order to have net flow=0, there must be a high opposing force, which physiologically tends to be the hydrostatic pressure.

I can't say for sure if hydrostatic is, or is not, an osmotic pressure, but based on what I've learned in undergrad level physio I don't think it is.
 
i saw a connection because i saw the two as counterparts.

but Efield and Bfield can also interact in a similar manner even though they are fundamentally different. so i'm wrong.

ok.

then generally osmotic pressure is equivalent to oncotic pressure. yes?
 
i saw a connection because i saw the two as counterparts.

but Efield and Bfield can also interact in a similar manner even though they are fundamentally different. so i'm wrong.

ok.

then generally osmotic pressure is equivalent to oncotic pressure. yes?

I've been treating them as equivalent and haven't lost any points in physio yet, so I guess yes :D
 
Oncotic pressure is a type of osmostic pressure caused by non-easily solvated molecules (a.k.a protiens). Since the proteins cannot cross the capillary walls, they act similarly to any solute in a solution in which a semi-permeable blocks their movement down their concentration gradient. Imagine a salty water solution on one side of a U-tube, a pure water solution on the other... separated by a semipermeable membrane.

Because the Na+ / Cl- cannot cross the membrane, water wants to travel down its concentration gradient towards the salty solution to help... the side with salt gains pure water. Imagine the water it gains stays completely pure and gets placed nicely on TOP of the salty solution rather than mixing in. The pressure that column of pure water applies is enough to cancel the pulling power of the salt concentration gradient because for every water molecule pulled in, the extra hydrostatic pressure of the column pushes one out (rho g h). That pulling power of the salt solution could be negated by this water displacement or by pumping a higher atmospheric pressure on the air on top of the salty solution... water is not necessary. So like MedPR was saying, osmotic pressure often leads to hydrostatic pressure to reach equilibrium BUT an external atmospheric pressure could accomplish the same thing. Thus, Osmotic pressure and hydrostatic look like they go hand in hand but it's only because of your exposure to them.

Note that the column of water pulled in by osmotic pressure does not get placed nicely on top of the salty solution... it mixes in. BUT the two ways of looking at it are equivalent physically.

The pressure that negates this pulling power (the pure column of water on top of the salty solution) is hydrostatic pressure and in the context of physio is ONLY the external pressure exerted by the heart. If the blood pressure increases, you essentially increased the external pressure, artificially adding to the column of fluid on top of the salty solution. In reality you are increasing the volume of the blood... Unlike in the U tube however the body can sustain a non-equilibrium state in which it puts more water on top of the salty solution than the pulling power can hold and thus the water flows outwards into the interstitial space.

Same thing as "salt" solution happens with proteins like albumin in blood plasma. The venous side is the "salty" analogous side because it has all the albumin. The capillary wall is the semipermeable membrane that prevents albumin from crossing. The interstitial space is the watery side of the U-tube analogy. There is a constant battle between hydrostatic and oncotic to push blood and pull blood back into the venous side of the capillary "membrane" respectively.

In conclusion:

Oncotic pressure ~ osmotic pressure
Hydrostatic pressure = blood pressure from heart

Oncotic =/= hydrostatic or Blood pressure


perhaps you're mistaken. Remember how hydrostatic = oncotic there is no net fluid flow? this suggests that they are both forms of osmotic pressure.

for contrast:

Osmotic pressure is the pressure which needs to be applied to a solution to prevent the inward flow of water.

given this explicit definition, what do you think?
 
Last edited:
can you please explain

"So like MedPR was saying, osmotic pressure often leads to hydrostatic pressure to reach equilibrium BUT an external atmospheric pressure could accomplish the same thing. Thus, Osmotic pressure and hydrostatic look like they go hand in hand but it's only because of your exposure to them."

further. I understand how the pressures work against each other and how they can change in response to each other. but I don't understand why

"Oncotic =/= hydrostatic or Blood pressure"
 
can you please explain

"So like MedPR was saying, osmotic pressure often leads to hydrostatic pressure to reach equilibrium BUT an external atmospheric pressure could accomplish the same thing. Thus, Osmotic pressure and hydrostatic look like they go hand in hand but it's only because of your exposure to them."

further. I understand how the pressures work against each other and how they can change in response to each other. but I don't understand why

"Oncotic =/= hydrostatic or Blood pressure"


I didn't say that osmotic pressure leads to hydrostatic pressure to reach equilibrium. Typically osmotic pressure and hydrostatic pressure oppose each other and create an equilibrium. They both exist for different reasons.

What do you mean you don't understand why?
 
hydrostatic pressure is entirely dependent on blood pressure driven by heart
and osmotic/oncotic pressure is dependent on the number of particles dissolved in plasma

The two are not connected except that, together, they balance of the opposing pressures maintain proper fluid volumes and solute concentration
 
my comment was poorly syntaxed. you misunderstood my question. sorry.

but as i reread it now, i understand so no further questions. thanks.
 
Oncotic pressure has to do with TOTAL available SURFACE AREA of non-solvated items in a fluid drawing water into the same compartment because of favorable entropy due to interaction with water.

I drew this out on a whiteboard in front of like 150 students but now I am too lazy to describe it, so just read whatever the guy up there wrote if you can't understand it.

In the lumen of a blood vessel, there are both hydrostatic and oncotic pressures.

In the interstitial, there are also both hydrostatic and oncotic pressures. Together, they create two opposing pressures that cause filtration and reabsorption of plasma. Too much fluid circulating increases hydrostatic pressure and can lead to edema. Loss of proteins through the urine (or lack of in diet, as in Kwashiokor) can REDUCE the oncotic pressure in the lumen PULLING water in, and so more water is not-being-pulled-in, also causing edema.

The same could also apply at the cell membrane (cytosol versus ECF).
 
Top